D
diceke
Guest
Junjun, sorry, you are on the wrong thread.
Rewriting History Again "Japan to Revise Books on WWII Suicides"
- Thread starter KirinMan
- Start date
at least , a thing i understood was someone want to transfer it to discrimination matter.
I disagree with this because it did not investigate and discuss that Japanese army force them to sucide concretely .
before that, we should clarify it
if it will not be clarified, it would be political probrem.
then I want to start it as political problem and today's okinawan plobrem
I disagree with this because it did not investigate and discuss that Japanese army force them to sucide concretely .
before that, we should clarify it
if it will not be clarified, it would be political probrem.
then I want to start it as political problem and today's okinawan plobrem
- 28 Jul 2005
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I can appreciate your point, caster51 san. I cannot say--because I cannot go inside the others' brains--if any one 'wanted' to...it probably just happened. Anyway, whatever the case may be, let's do our best to not let it go in that direction.
(bold and underline mine)caster51 said:
It is not so clear just what your 'this' means there. I think that common syntactic perception would draw the conclusion that your 'this' refers to my quoted wording. In that understanding, you would be saying that you are disagreeing to keep this thread on topic. Your further wording there does not adhere to that line of thought in the logical sense, however, so obviously that is not what you are saying.
Please follow along carefully, caster51 san...お願いします (please politely consider) You see, in my post which you have quoted and are replying to, I had written the following: '... check up to see what's happening about the textbook's being changed issue...'
Look at that and note the stress that I have put on 'check up' (=investigate) and 'textbook's being changed' and within that, 'issue.' I think you can now percieve that I am talking about exactly what you have mentioned. Investigation is still needed, and not only on hard evidence or whatever, but on what debate may be going on in political circles and so on.
For example, since you disagree with a number of the people who attended that public forum (or whatever it can be called) it might be good to simply provide more variety of source information on it--what did they say? to what degree can that be seen as valid? in what ways can it be challenged? to what degree can those ways of challenge be tested? what new statements and events have come out which affect either position? Then, report that in posts here. That would be keeping more so on topic. (of course there will be some embedding discussion)
Now, this, of course is for all of us...I'm not talking only to you, caster51, but am talking to all (including myself) via this answer to your reply to my earlier post.
caster51 said:
That would be in another thread if it were about a political problem beyond the textbook changes problem.
This post is itself off-topic. I simply wanted to answer to caster51 and felt PM would not be as optimum. I will delete this in 3 days--having given caster51 time to have read it. Please do not answer to this.
KirinMan
後輩
- 23 Jan 2007
- 2,173
- 68
- Thread starter
- #206
First off how can you say that no one investigated this with the army? IS there any proof of that?
There are numerous survivors that say otherwise, but I always get the feeling from reading your replies here that you think that they are either lying, or have some kind of mental relapse that doesnt allow them to remember things clearly.
You know there are plenty of video tapes of people jumping off cliffs, mothers throwing their babies over cliffs and then jumping in after them.
Now whether they were forced or not depends upon the view you choose to take. Sure they jumped on their own, sadly enough, but the question you need to answer Caster is why did they do it in the first place? What were they educated to believe and by whom where they taught?
However it is a fact that between the Japanese military and civilian population here in Okinawa thousands of suicides occured. Hell even the commanding General commited suicide in atonement for his failure.
He did it because of his beliefs and education, most Okinawan people didnt have the same beliefs nor education, plus they were forced into their situation by the Japanese military, that is also undisputable.
it had a nothig to do with "forced."
its education and "forced" are different
It is not because they were ordered by the army at that time....
it was not only okinawan...
indeed , many okinawan citizens of the nonresistance were killed by US.
there would be no hiroshima and nagasaki ....
so what?
of course it is because of tradition from ancient .
however it is not only this reason
most Japanese realized that even though it was a brainwashed
this is one of examples
Masada - Wikipedia
KirinMan
後輩
- 23 Jan 2007
- 2,173
- 68
- Thread starter
- #210
Read your quote here
Hence my reply to you......so to you So What?
So the the Okinawan people were brainwashed as well right? Since the Okinawan people didnt have the ancient tradition of committing seppuku .
And the only people around that were doing the brainwashing to the Okinawan people was the Japanese Imperial Army.....
So who is to blame Caster?
it has a nothing to do with that.
what is a seppuku?
there were any kind of ancient tradition of committing sucide.LOL
Japan does not teach how to commit sucide today.
it has nothing to do with "forced" and orderd"
even Jew committed sucide...
Masada - Wikipedia
I can imagine that they(jew)also fought until last.
However they were cornerd. and there was no choice because of their pride
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KirinMan
後輩
- 23 Jan 2007
- 2,173
- 68
- Thread starter
- #212
Now you are pulling at straws here, you know what seppuku is.....it has a nothing to do with that.
what is a seppuku?
there were any kind of ancient tradition of committing sucide.LOL
Japan does not teach how to commit sucide today.
it has nothing to do with "forced" and orderd"
even Jew committed sucide...
Masada - Wikipedia
I can imagine that they(jew)also fought until last.
However they were cornerd. and there was no choice because of their pride
Oh and what happened with Jews has absolutely nothing to do with the current topic.
Why do you insist on trying to change the topic caster?
This is about Japan and Japanese, why do you insist on trying to change the subject?
I dnot change about the evidence of "forced"
whether rewriting or not need a evidence.
and only education does not lead committing sucide...
and shame culture might be one of reasons.
Ｉ think masada case was a same condition of okinawa at that time.
I admire them though it was a tragedy.
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- 5 Feb 2005
- 7,694
- 627
It would be nice if the people from the mainland would also say something about certain things, such as the Okinawans did. (does anyone know any cases like these?)
But did the war really came to the mainland besides the bombings?
I believe that the Japanese Imperial army have done teriblle things, some of them are true some aren't. Some people are trying to make it look worse, while other are trying to make it look like if nothing had happened.
Are you serious with this? If you are... then what are you doing in this thread.
But did the war really came to the mainland besides the bombings?
I believe that the Japanese Imperial army have done teriblle things, some of them are true some aren't. Some people are trying to make it look worse, while other are trying to make it look like if nothing had happened.
Are you serious with this? If you are... then what are you doing in this thread.
This is not about today... why are you talking about this?
- 17 Sep 2005
- 6,017
- 1,970
It could have been a rhetorical question. Or it could have been less literal than everyone here seems to be taking it. As should be evident, caster is doing his best with the English skills he has. I think we should at least give him the benefit of a doubt!Are you serious with this? If you are... then what are you doing in this thread.
Yaeyama article
http://www6.ocn.ne.jp/~nippo/
I dont agree with okinawan movement about that
if you killed your relatives by order, order would be more important than your relatives life
in oldtestiments God demanded Abhraham to kill his son Isac for Royality
then he prepared to kill his son. then God stopped Abhraham.
I realy feel bad for that
there was no such tradition for royalty even in Japan
If I were him, I would run with my son. i think it is a human feeling.
so , could okinawan kill their wife and son ? even though there were order ..
after her escape. then I would commit sucide. i undersand it cleary
why did okinawan killed their relatives?
they would think and conform they were happy because of escaping of pain.
that was why they killed their relatives
before enemy landed, it is easy to imagin that okinawa was already panic because of bombing.
Tokashiki villege and some villeges did not particpated in this Rally
they know it well because they experienced it.
and In saipan, Japanese army also did not defend civillians like okinawa.
both The soldier and the civilian committed suicide all by the enemy's landing.
there was no ordering of army to commit sucide in Saipan.
howwver they did.
It is not possible for man to commit suicide easy by ordering even in that condition.
it is also impossible to kill relatives by ordering for suside
I think there would be hopelessness, panic and wanting ease.....
http://www6.ocn.ne.jp/~nippo/
I dont agree with okinawan movement about that
if you killed your relatives by order, order would be more important than your relatives life
in oldtestiments God demanded Abhraham to kill his son Isac for Royality
then he prepared to kill his son. then God stopped Abhraham.
I realy feel bad for that
there was no such tradition for royalty even in Japan
If I were him, I would run with my son. i think it is a human feeling.
so , could okinawan kill their wife and son ? even though there were order ..
after her escape. then I would commit sucide. i undersand it cleary
why did okinawan killed their relatives?
they would think and conform they were happy because of escaping of pain.
that was why they killed their relatives
before enemy landed, it is easy to imagin that okinawa was already panic because of bombing.
Tokashiki villege and some villeges did not particpated in this Rally
they know it well because they experienced it.
and In saipan, Japanese army also did not defend civillians like okinawa.
both The soldier and the civilian committed suicide all by the enemy's landing.
there was no ordering of army to commit sucide in Saipan.
howwver they did.
It is not possible for man to commit suicide easy by ordering even in that condition.
it is also impossible to kill relatives by ordering for suside
I think there would be hopelessness, panic and wanting ease.....
http://blog.goyah.net/upimg/toita/07100611031301.jpg
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I welcome the benefit of a doubt
there are two meaning in seppuku.
it is not only meaning of committing suicide
to order seppuku does not mean committing sucide.
it means "Compensate with the death."
to committing suicides are seen at end of battles without education in the world.
When committing suicide, they merely cut his belly indtead of neck or heart in japan.
I think there were ppls who committed suicide in end of power struggles even in okinawa
—®‹…'Ìé</CENTER>
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KirinMan
後輩
- 23 Jan 2007
- 2,173
- 68
- Thread starter
- #220
So does that mean you had no prior knowledge about this issue?
So is it safe to assume that you knew nothing about this until this issue was raised recently?
If that is the case how can you be so sure it didnt happen if you didnt know about it?
It bothers me greatly that you can come here and make comments stating that it didnt happen but you have no prior information about this issue until this topic arose within the past 6 months or so. Regarding rewriting of the textbooks that is.
How can you assume it didnt happen since you didnt know? Do you assume that you are taught all about what happened in Japanese history while you were a student in JHS and HS?
Ok if it doesnt mean suicide than what does it mean? One had to kill oneself either at the order of ones leige lord or to make ammends for "something" that one did. Either way the individual had to slit their own belly, no one did it for them. That is suicide, when a person kills themselves no matter the reason it is still suicide.
Why do you feel sorry for a bible story that may have happened or may not? There is ABSOLUTELY NO equaling what happened in Okinawa with what is written in the bible. But if you believe one then why not believe the other?
That's is pure bs...I KNOW people from Tokashiki, odds are you never even heard of the island until this issue arose, now you come across as if you are an expert on the issue.
Far be it from me to claim that either, but I will say this;
Caster......bring your butt down here to Okinawa, talk to the people, read the information, and learn. Your eyes just might be widened a bit to what actually happened here.
Tokashiki monument
In tokashiki monument, it is written like that
the tokashiki ppl was cornerd by U.S attacking in heavy rain.
ppl chose to commit suicide by themselves instead of enemy's hand.
the family and the groups, sitting in a circle pulled out hand grenade.
father and older brother cut off mother and young sister's life.
however there was "LOVE"
In tokashiki monument, it is written like that
the tokashiki ppl was cornerd by U.S attacking in heavy rain.
ppl chose to commit suicide by themselves instead of enemy's hand.
the family and the groups, sitting in a circle pulled out hand grenade.
father and older brother cut off mother and young sister's life.
however there was "LOVE"
according to Kurara report
kurara
Kurara Chibana - Wikipedia
her grandfather told his experience to her.
kurara
Kurara Chibana - Wikipedia
her grandfather told his experience to her.
Chidoriashi
In imagination land
- 2 Feb 2007
- 824
- 63
I hate break it to you Caster but it doesnt say whether or not they were coerced into doing that or not. (窶堋ｻ窶堙娯?敕ｨ窶堙坂?督ｳ窶板昶?堙俄?堋ｳ窶堋ｹ窶堙ｧ窶堙ｪ窶堋ｽ窶堋ｩ窶堙??堋､窶堋ｩﾅ?m窶戳窶堋ｵ窶堙遺?堋｢窶堙??堋ｷ窶堙ｦﾂ、窶堋ｾ窶堋ｩ窶堙ｧ窶ｰﾂｽ窶堙?ﾂ湘倪?督ｾ窶堋ｵ窶堙遺?堋｢窶堙??堋ｷ窶堙ｦﾂ）ﾂ。ﾂ
They could be just leaving the part out about the JIA "advising" them to commit suicide.
Caster, the militeristic government of the time was training even young girls to fight against American soldiers, in the mainland invasion (had it happened). Up to 28 million citizens including young teenage boys and girls, and old men probably with not many years left were being coerced to fight against american soldiers.... Drafting 28 million regular people to fight and die for the glory of the JIA.. or possibly just for negotiating power.....And you think it would have been uncharacteristic of the Japanese Imperial army to order the Okinawans to do something like that.. or scare, or convince them to do something like that..... Yeah... reading just about things like Operation Ketusgo I can easily see the JIA doing something like that to the Okinawans..... (not even taking into how horrible the JIA acted in many of the places it conquered..... you arguement just defies all logic Caster..... The JIA had a horrible track record.. which even if only half of it is true.. would not allow them the benfit of the doubt in this argument.
Here is all about Operation Ketsugo in Japanese for your unbelieving pleasure (cuz like I told you before Caster.. it doesnt matter how much evidence you see..or how obvious what we are all trying to make you see is true... you simply dont want to believe.. you wouldn't allow yourself to lose face like that. That is the only reason I can see why you are for changing/covering history.
And I don't see why accepting the fact that the Japanese have blood on their hands just like every other nation in history would make you lose face about Japan today.
国民義勇隊 - Wikipedia
They could be just leaving the part out about the JIA "advising" them to commit suicide.
Caster, the militeristic government of the time was training even young girls to fight against American soldiers, in the mainland invasion (had it happened). Up to 28 million citizens including young teenage boys and girls, and old men probably with not many years left were being coerced to fight against american soldiers.... Drafting 28 million regular people to fight and die for the glory of the JIA.. or possibly just for negotiating power.....And you think it would have been uncharacteristic of the Japanese Imperial army to order the Okinawans to do something like that.. or scare, or convince them to do something like that..... Yeah... reading just about things like Operation Ketusgo I can easily see the JIA doing something like that to the Okinawans..... (not even taking into how horrible the JIA acted in many of the places it conquered..... you arguement just defies all logic Caster..... The JIA had a horrible track record.. which even if only half of it is true.. would not allow them the benfit of the doubt in this argument.
Here is all about Operation Ketsugo in Japanese for your unbelieving pleasure (cuz like I told you before Caster.. it doesnt matter how much evidence you see..or how obvious what we are all trying to make you see is true... you simply dont want to believe.. you wouldn't allow yourself to lose face like that. That is the only reason I can see why you are for changing/covering history.
And I don't see why accepting the fact that the Japanese have blood on their hands just like every other nation in history would make you lose face about Japan today.
国民義勇隊 - Wikipedia
Astroboy
先輩
- 5 Dec 2007
- 1,307
- 26
IF it's wrong, fabricated, or forced to write, then Japan should rewrite the history.
History is always rewrote when something new is found. But if you believe "winners can write the history". Then please mention "This History is wrote by winners" in the preface. Then it's OK to us. Nobody trust such a history. That's all.
History is always rewrote when something new is found. But if you believe "winners can write the history". Then please mention "This History is wrote by winners" in the preface. Then it's OK to us. Nobody trust such a history. That's all.
Elizabeth
先輩
- 22 Apr 2003
- 9,839
- 135
Evidence is obviously not the determining factor to the Japanese government. The system of textbook censorship, or I should say "authorization," has been shown for what it is -- a laughably politicized process. As seen in the decision to now include mention of forced suicides in textbooks, which was announced yesterday.
http://www3.nhk.or.jp/news/2007/12/27/d20071227000004.html
No clear explanation was given beyond their newfound heartfelt sympathy at the misery of Wartime survivors, certianly no mention of fresh look at the historical records. My best guess is that it was the fierce resistance of the Okinawan people during the last election cycle and the negative impact on the ruling party.
