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ARTICLE: Japan rewrites its sex slave history

urecco

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bossel said:
Look at Rabe's diary again!


Obviously quite often.


Who says so? The number is closer to 1m (960,000 or something). Are you mistaking that for the overall number of Jewish Holocaust victims? Which would be 5 to 6m.
According to the robe's diary,Japanese officer(s) or soldier(s) and the member(s) of red Red Swastika Society went to the university and searched the women who would work as prostitues and the member of Red Swastika Society looked around and picked up some women.They were ex-prostitute.That's why they easily agreed to be comfort women.
I forgot the date.But besides this epsode,Robe never mentioned about comfort women at least in Japanese ver.
It shows that comfort women were nothing but prostitutes.

I know some revisionists distort the information or make fake evidence.
However,it is also true that the mainstream historians use the fake information or never reexamine the "reliable" evidence.

AS you know,now the number of victims who died in Auschwitz is seemed to be about a million.However,the mainstream historinas said 4 million had died until 1990,when USSR dissolved.
You can check the picture of stone monuments.
http://www.white-history.com/numbers.htm
Until 1990,no mainstream histrian said the 4 million victims were doubtful.
Actually,if they had denied the 4 million,they would have been called "revisionists".
The meanstream histrians just followed USSR's statement,
even though there was no reasonable evidence.
4 million killed in Aucshwtz was widely believed for over 40 years.

Many people are still showing the article of "100 killing" as evidence of massacre even though the article never say they killed either civilians or POWs.

Anyway,in Japan,no histrian says that Japanese Army systematically and directly forced women to work as prostitutes.
According to 窶披?コ窶ーhナ丹,리이영훈,Lii (Lee) Yeonghun,the professor of Seoul Univ.,
in Korea,no scholar says either.
Are they revisionists?

Unsurprisingly,wikipedia Japanese ver. says the same.
Surprisingly,wikipedia English ver. says roughly the same thing.
Comfort women - Wikipedia

Bossel, please check Germany ver.
Sabro,please read wikipedia.
 

bossel

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urecco said:
It shows that comfort women were nothing but prostitutes.
I remember that episode quite well, I think. The Japanese officers came there & demanded a certain number of women for their brothels. They didn't know if there were any prostitutes among the women there (neither did the US woman in charge). They discussed for a while & the US American couldn't change the soldiers' mind. Only after another foreigner arrived (or was already there & had just then the idea, don't remember) & (his Chinese aide?) asked, if there were any prostitutes among the women, the impasse ended. Do you really think, the Japanese soldiers would have left without "comfort women", if no prostitutes would have been present?

However,the mainstream historinas said 4 million had died until 1990,when USSR dissolved.
Which mainstream historians? Since I can remember (which means: since the late 70's), nothing has changed in the overall number of 6 million Jews killed. If there would have been a sudden drop in confirmed deaths at Auschwitz of 3m, the total would have had to change as well.

You can check the picture of stone monuments.
If you would have checked thoroughly, you would have seen that the plaques say "people" respectively "men, women & children, mainly Jews". Anyway, can't see what a plaque has to do with mainstream history.

Oh yeah, that's a great source, very objective. On another page of their site you will find the denial of the existence of gas chambres in Auschwitz.

Surprisingly,wikipedia English ver. says roughly the same thing.
You really see only what you want to. Quotes from Wikipedia:
"it is not correct to categorise all comfort women as voluntary. Many were tricked by fraud or their families were forced to sell these women due to economic hardship, and especially in Japanese colonies some were kidnapped by these middlemen as part of human trafficking"

"especially in the countryside where the presence of middlemen or brothels are rare, the army directly demanded that the local leaders procure women for their brothels. The situation became worse as the war progressed."

"each unit made up the difference by demanding tribute from locals or, more often, by direct looting. Moreover, at this point, when locals, especially Chinese, were considered to be hostile, they carried out the policy known as "purging" (in Japanese テ?ナセ窶禿?催ャツ静ュ, in Chinese ナスOナ津オツ催ャツ静ュ)"

Bossel, please check Germany ver.
There is no German version of this.
 

sabro

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I have a puzzled look on my face. About 200,000 women were exploited by the Imperial Japanese Army in the most brutal and inhuman way. Aha, there were middlemen! And some women were duped! Others were Immoral! I guess that makes it okay.

A plaque was wrong at Auschwitz. Oh, my god?! Urecco I guess you've been right all the time. It's not only the Japanese who were on a benevolent humanitarian crusade, but the Nazi's too.

In case you missed the sarcasm, I'm not being serious. Look at the sites you gave and realize that they confirm what everyone here has been trying to tell you about the evils committed in the last century. I'm sorry that you don't like the truth. But ditch the rose colored glasses and look at it closely. It will make you sick, very sick. But that's a good thing.
 

urecco

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bossel said:
I remember that episode quite well, I think. The Japanese officers came there & demanded a certain number of women for their brothels. They didn't know if there were any prostitutes among the women there (neither did the US woman in charge). They discussed for a while & the US American couldn't change the soldiers' mind. Only after another foreigner arrived (or was already there & had just then the idea, don't remember) & (his Chinese aide?) asked, if there were any prostitutes among the women, the impasse ended. Do you really think, the Japanese soldiers would have left without "comfort women", if no prostitutes would have been present?
But, in any case, it is true that Robe did not see that Japanese Army directly forced women to work.


bossel said:
Which mainstream historians? Since I can remember (which means: since the late 70's), nothing has changed in the overall number of 6 million Jews killed. If there would have been a sudden drop in confirmed deaths at Auschwitz of 3m, the total would have had to change as well.
I don't know which ones said that.
But in several countries,minimizing the number of victims of Holocaust was illegal.
And USSR's official statement said the victims were 4 million.
So no mainstream histrians could say it was doubtful,I think.
But I have no source about it.
In my opinion,the plaque was unlikely to mentioned what the mainstream histrians had proved isn't true.

About the total number,what you mentioned is also mentioned by revisionists.
The answer is that total victims were based on the estimates of total population of Jews before the Holocaust and after it.
They say that, at any rate, it is certain that at least 6 million Jews disappeared,so the 3 million Jews must have been killed other places.
bossel said:
If you would have checked thoroughly, you would have seen that the plaques say "people" respectively "men, women & children, mainly Jews". Anyway, can't see what a plaque has to do with mainstream history.
What do the plaques saying "people" respectively "men, women & children, mainly Jews" imply?


bossel said:
Oh yeah, that's a great source, very objective. On another page of their site you will find the denial of the existence of gas chambres in Auschwitz.
But it does not mean that the plaques are fake.

bossel said:
You really see only what you want to. Quotes from Wikipedia:
"it is not correct to categorise all comfort women as voluntary. Many were tricked by fraud or their families were forced to sell these women due to economic hardship, and especially in Japanese colonies some were kidnapped by these middlemen as part of human trafficking"

"especially in the countryside where the presence of middlemen or brothels are rare, the army directly demanded that the local leaders procure women for their brothels. The situation became worse as the war progressed."

"each unit made up the difference by demanding tribute from locals or, more often, by direct looting. Moreover, at this point, when locals, especially Chinese, were considered to be hostile, they carried out the policy known as "purging" (in Japanese テ?ナセ窶禿?催ャツ静ュ, in Chinese ナスOナ津オツ催ャツ静ュ)"
I never say that all comfort women were voluntary.
I just said at least in Korea Japanese Army never directly and systematically forced women to work.
Do not ommit the words "once in the front line" for second quote.
テ?ナセ窶禿?催ャツ静ュ was carried out in 1940 in order to defeat the guerillas in 窶ーテ坂?徒ツ湘按 and stopped in 1941.it was horrible order.But I don't know whether they forced women to work at that time,and have never seen the testimony about it.
Of course they might have done it.But I don't know whether it was personal crimes or ordered as a part of policy.

In any case,it is the misconseption that Japanese Army directly forced a large amount of Korean women to work as prostitutes,right?
 

bossel

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urecco said:
But, in any case, it is true that Robe did not see that Japanese Army directly forced women to work.
Yeah, right, Rabe himself didn't witness it, hence it didn't happen. Oh, man...


But in several countries,minimizing the number of victims of Holocaust was illegal.
Eg. in Germany it still is.

And USSR's official statement said the victims were 4 million.
So no mainstream histrians could say it was doubtful,I think.
But I have no source about it.
Ever heard of the Cold War? It's rather improbable that any Western historians simply took that number because the SU may have proposed it.

In my opinion,the plaque was unlikely to mentioned what the mainstream histrians had proved isn't true.
Depends, who put it up.

The answer is that total victims were based on the estimates of total population of Jews before the Holocaust and after it.
Only partly, for the greatest part the number is based on detailed records of killed Jews. Even the death squads working behind the front lines in conquered territory had records.

What do the plaques saying "people" respectively "men, women & children, mainly Jews" imply?
That not only Jews were killed there. This is common knowledge.

But it does not mean that the plaques are fake.
But it also doesn't make the plaques part of mainstream history.

In any case,it is the misconseption that Japanese Army directly forced a large amount of Korean women to work as prostitutes,right?
Nope. There are enough witnesses to prove otherwise, for what I know.
 

sabro

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I am a high school history teacher, but not a holocaust expert. Nor am I an expert on the Nanjing Incident. But I know crap when I see it. For the sake of argument the following figures are for Urecco. The sources are extremely reliable and well documented and also listed if you would like to check them yourself. The great majority of estimates come from German records especially Einsatzgruppen on the eastern front, transportation, concentration camp records, and other surviving SS documentation. It includes reports sent to Himmler from Auschwitz about the number of disposals--dead prisoners exceeding the estimated capacity of 100,000 per month.

Table 1
Estimates of Non-Combatant Lives Lost During the Holocaust
Ukrainians 5.5 - 7 million
Jews (of all countries) 6 million +
Russian POWs 3.3 million +
Russian Civilians 2 million +
Poles 3 million +
Yugoslavians 1.5 million +
Gypsies 200,000 - 500,000
Mentally/Physically Disabled 70,000- 250,000
Homosexuals Tens of thousands
Spanish Republicans Tens of thousands
Jehovah's Witnesses 2,500 - 5,000
Boy and Girl Scouts, Clergy, Communists, Czechs, Deportees, Greeks, Political Prisoners, Other POWs, Resistance Fighters, Serbs, Socialists, Trade Unionists, Others Unknown
Table assembled from figures quoted by Milton; Lukas 38-39, 232; Gilbert 824; Berenbaum 123; and Holocaust Internet information sites.

The six million figure used in the Jewish death toll is an estimate for total lives lost. These Jewish lives were taken by a number of groups, not just Nazis. The six million figure includes Jewish lives lost in other countries as well, not just Germany, and by the various modes of killing, not just camp deaths. Ukrainian deaths were due to Russian and Nazi perpetrators alike, some killed on "acquired" German soil, others killed on Russian soil, some killed outright, others slowly worked or starved to death. If Russian Jews, killed on Russian soil by both Nazis and Russians, are considered Holocaust deaths, then the Ukrainians killed alongside them should also be categorized as Holocaust deaths. When groups of people are killed side by side -- in the same manner, by the same perpetrators, for the same reasons (their ethnic identity) -- one cannot separate some from the group and call it a Holocaust and say the others were merely victims of war, or worse, completely ignore their numbers and leave them no record in history. The criteria used to determine the six million Jewish deaths should be the same criteria used for the non-Jews. By using the same criteria for determining Holocaust deaths among all victims, the question of whether non-Jewish deaths were simply victims of war becomes irrelevant.
 

urecco

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Bossel sorry for not replying long.

Yeah, right, Rabe himself didn't witness it, hence it didn't happen. Oh, man...
I asked you to give me an example of the witnesses.
then you gave me Robe.
But Robe did not see it.

you should give me another one or admit there were no witnesses.

But it also doesn't make the plaques part of mainstream history.
AFAIK,no historians keep the number of 4 million killed in Auschwitz.

Nope. There are enough witnesses to prove otherwise, for what I know.

who?

@sabro

Did I deny whole Holocaust?
I just meant some information was incorrect.
 

sabro

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If you look at the table and explaination above, it hints at the extensive research and documentation that goes into such history. You attempt to "correct" history however seems to be more of an attempt to rewrite and excuse the attrocities of the past. Standing in the company of holocaust deniers is probably a poor way of finding the truth.
 

lemiel

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I'm South korean 25years old,
I was suprised by this post's replies. no Evidence. only Prostitution, no rape.
Why? I have grand mother 82years old. and many Korean people that lived when Japan controlled korea still live. young koreans heard that Sex slave story named 'ナ渡ナ坦ヒ?藩??窶「w' ARMY COMFOT GIRL by their grand parents lived when korean was colony.

First, I maybe must thanks about Japan's this crime.
My grand mother did not want marry. But she had to marry my grand father. why?
at that time, Japan colony government officials took unmarried woman or school girl. they said ' For great japan empire, You must serve in factory, Government will give fair pay...'

prostitution was, is, will be.. Yes, it's true. but, In the modern age, Which nation government trick school girl, unmarried woman and make sex slave in the army? It can be recognized by modern japanese?

at that time, In position of Japan goverment, Korean school girl and unmarried woman were Member of Japan empire. Which nation government trick their people, made them sexslave? It's not Crime? If present Japan government do same thing to japanese, Will Japan people say 'prostitution was always.'?

What evidence? many Koreans that remembered that time live until now. They do not Die all. They can not be witness?

Japan could be Leader of East asia. But japan is not leader. why? why many young korean hate japanese? Japan has big power of military, politic, economic, But japan says, "Usa's dirty crime of bomb and nuke, we were the injured party...."
Japan did not say "We did crime in asia, we apologize to Chinese, Korean, Eastern south asia people.." Some japanese even Said "We were Protector of asia against western great powers"

How can german be leader of EU? They recognized their fault, and Apologize their crime many times. Now Who do critisize german? All people say "German is model of conscience" German's historical enemy, France is best friend of german.

How about japan? Japan can say "prostitution can be always..." Nobody can be true freind of japan. and at that time, Japan people was the injured party by Japan empire and military clique, too. Do japanese want to live in same situation?
 

urecco

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lemiel said:
I'm South korean 25years old,
I was suprised by this post's replies. no Evidence. only Prostitution, no rape.
Why? I have grand mother 82years old. and many Korean people that lived when Japan controlled korea still live. young koreans heard that Sex slave story named 'ナ渡ナ坦ヒ?藩??窶「w' ARMY COMFOT GIRL by their grand parents lived when korean was colony.

First, I maybe must thanks about Japan's this crime.
My grand mother did not want marry. But she had to marry my grand father. why?
at that time, Japan colony government officials took unmarried woman or school girl. they said ' For great japan empire, You must serve in factory, Government will give fair pay...'

prostitution was, is, will be.. Yes, it's true. but, In the modern age, Which nation government trick school girl, unmarried woman and make sex slave in the army? It can be recognized by modern japanese?
you must not know the difference between "窶凖ーツ身窶佚?" a technically 'volunteer corps' and "ヒ?藩??窶「w' Comfort women as neither many Korean.
What you heard from your gramdmotehr was mere rumour.
lemiel said:
at that time, In position of Japan goverment, Korean school girl and unmarried woman were Member of Japan empire. Which nation government trick their people, made them sexslave? It's not Crime? If present Japan government do same thing to japanese, Will Japan people say 'prostitution was always.'?
Government never tricked or forced.It was done by private middlemen and Japan tried to prevent that crime.
lemiel said:
What evidence? many Koreans that remembered that time live until now. They do not Die all. They can not be witness?
there are no reliable testimonies.

Please read it
Comfort women - Wikipedia
What caused this issue is the novel written by Yoshida in 1983.
 

bossel

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urecco said:
Government never tricked or forced.It was done by private middlemen and Japan tried to prevent that crime.
From your very link:
"However, since 1992, when the historian Yoshimi Yoshiaki discovered incriminating documents in the archives of Japan's National Defense Agency indicating that the military was directly involved in running the brothels (by, for example, selecting the agents who recruited or coerced women into service)"

there are no reliable testimonies.
Nope, probably there are no reliable testimonies you like to see. That's a difference.
 

urecco

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bossel said:
From your very link:
"However, since 1992, when the historian Yoshimi Yoshiaki discovered incriminating documents in the archives of Japan's National Defense Agency indicating that the military was directly involved in running the brothels (by, for example, selecting the agents who recruited or coerced women into service)"
What you quoted is the reason why many Korean and even some Japanese believe the military forced them to work.
However it is distorted information.
And now even Yoshimi Yoshiaki does not say the military forced them to work.
1992, the paper also published the discovery of documents in the archives of Japan's National Defense Agency indicating that the military was directly involved in selecting the agents who recruited these women into service. The article implied that the document is a smoking gun, proving the government's complicty in the forcible kidnapping of women. The publication of the article was just five days before Japanese Prime Minister Kiichi Miyazawa paid a visit to South Korea. Miyazawa made a formal apology during that visit. However, the investigation by Hata Ikuhiko subsequently discovered that the entire Jeju Island episode documented in Yoshida's book to be a fiction, which the author of the book later admitted. Moreover, the supposedly incriminating documents proving the military's involvement in selecting the agents in fact showed that the military issued such directives to prevent abuse, in response to reports of complaints from the colonial police force about the methods employed by these agents. And it was shown that some of these women were sold by their parents to these agents as bonded labour, a practice not uncommon at the time both in Japan and in Korea.
bossel said:
Nope, probably there are no reliable testimonies you like to see. That's a difference.
Okay give me one which show that the military systematically forced Korean women to work.
 
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bossel

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urecco said:
Okay give me one which show that the military systematically forced Korean women to work.
You're quite funny in a way. How should a Korean comfort woman testify systematic coercion? She can only witness her own case & that of a few others she met in the brothel.
 

urecco

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bossel said:
You're quite funny in a way. How should a Korean comfort woman testify systematic coercion? She can only witness her own case & that of a few others she met in the brothel.
What's the answer.
Korean women had no way to know the systematic coercion.
And there are no documents that shows systematic coercion done by the military.On the contrary,there is a document which shows that Japan gave the order to prevent kidnapping and deceiving.

Think about it.
The victims could not know if they were forced by individual Japanese soldiers or the military order.(the testimonies saying that are rare though)
There are no documents that prove the military forced.
There is a document that prove the military tried to prevent kidnapping.
Who can conclude that the military forced women?

The reason why this issue rose is the so-called "non-fiction" novel written by Yoshida and campaign of apologizing about it done by Yoshida and Asahi Shinbun.
However,the novel was proved to be fiction.
Thus,in Japan,no historians say Japan forced women to be Comfort Women.

What is the reason you think there was systematic forceful coercion?

What is your opinon?
1 everyone was directly coerced by the military(no middlemen)
2 middlemen(agents) had the order(permission) to kidnap or deceive.
3 Both middlemen and the military coerced.
4 middlemen coerced in bad way against the law.

please give me atestimony which backs your opinon up,if you can.
 

bossel

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Moving in circles...

ARTICLE: Japan rewrites its sex slave history

urecco said:
And there are no documents that shows systematic coercion done by the military.
Liar!? Why then this "Letter from Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi to the former comfort women"?

& why does the UNHCR say this (see my post linked above):
"The present appendix relies exclusively on the facts established in the Japanese Government's own review of the involvement of Japanese military officials in establishing, supervising and maintaining rape centres during the Second World War."

Thus,in Japan,no historians say Japan forced women to be Comfort Women.
Liar!? Yoshiaki Yoshimi is still on the issue.
Others seem to have a similar stance:
http://www.jca.apc.org/JWRC/center/english/index-english.htm

What is the reason you think there was systematic forceful coercion?
History.

1 everyone was directly coerced by the military(no middlemen)
2 middlemen(agents) had the order(permission) to kidnap or deceive.
3 Both middlemen and the military coerced.
4 middlemen coerced in bad way against the law.
#3

please give me atestimony which backs your opinon up,if you can.
See sources above. & even the Japanese Asian Women's Fund (not really loved in Korea) admits "there were even cases where administrative/ military personnel directly took part in the recruitments."
 

urecco

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bossel said:
He did not say the military directly forced them to work.
Why am I a liar?
In any case,I should have said no "historical document".

bossel said:
& why does the UNHCR say this (see my post linked above):
"The present appendix relies exclusively on the facts established in the Japanese Government's own review of the involvement of Japanese military officials in establishing, supervising and maintaining rape centres during the Second World War."
Comfort stations were settled where the military was.So the military must have involved the establishing,supervising and maintaining.However,Comfort stations were not rape centres and the issue is the way of recruitment.

bossel said:
Liar!? Yoshiaki Yoshimi is still on the issue.
As you know,the one who find the document of involvement of the military is Yoshiaki Yoshimi.He said Japan forced them to work.
But many people argued that this involvement was for preventing illegal recruitment and does not mean Japan forced them to work.
Then he changed his mind.
I don't know when the book of Japanese ver. published,but now he does not say Japan forced them to work.
what he says now is like "the parents sold the daughters.why? because of porvery.why they are poor? Because Japan did not ruled well.It means that Japan forced Korean people to be in the condition they needed to sell their daughter. So it is Japan's fault. the government need to apologize and compansate"
He coined the word "a broad sense of forcible recruitment".
In Japan,the issue is simply if there was forcible recruitment (by the military) or not.
Even now he will say "Yes,there was" but it dose not mean the military forced them to work.
bossel said:
Totsuka is a layer not a historian.
please see interesting news about him.
http://www.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/getarticle.pl5?nn20040616a8.htm
Agents were arrested for kidnapping and deceiving and punished.
That means gov't never allowed agents to kidnap or deceive.

bossel said:
Could you show me any books or articles which mentioned about forcible recruitment of Comfort women written by 1980?

bossel said:
See sources above. & even the Japanese Asian Women's Fund (not really loved in Korea) admits "there were even cases where administrative/ military personnel directly took part in the recruitments."
Personnel took part in it as individuals.
There were no systematic recruitments.At leaset no proof.
 

bossel

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urecco said:
He did not say the military directly forced them to work.
Ah, of course, not directly. Why didn't I indulge in those wonderful wordplays?

Comfort stations were settled where the military was.So the military must have involved the establishing,supervising and maintaining.However,Comfort stations were not rape centres and the issue is the way of recruitment.
From the UNHCHR link:
"These facts, as stipulated by the Japanese Government, clearly demonstrate that contrary to repeated claims that the so-called "comfort women" "worked" in privately administered brothels, the women, many of whom were still children at the time, were in fact enslaved in rape centres either directly by the Japanese military or with the full knowledge and support of the Japanese military. The women and children who were held there against their will inside these "comfort stations" were then subjected to acts of rape and sexual violence on such a massive scale that the nature of the crime may only properly be described as a crime against humanity."

In Japan,the issue is simply if there was forcible recruitment (by the military) or not.
Maybe in Japan. In the rest of the world the issue is responsibility of Japan (-ese government & military authorities).

Totsuka is a layer not a historian.
please see interesting news about him.
Totsuka? Don't know this name (& I don't know, why you insist on professional historians. Just being a historian doesn't make you an expert on the issue of comfort women [else I would be an expert, too. why then argue with me?]). Look at this list on the same website, you'll find the names of some Japanese historians, if you need.

http://www.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/getarticle.pl5?nn20040616a8.htm
Agents were arrested for kidnapping and deceiving and punished.
That means gov't never allowed agents to kidnap or deceive.
Now you're getting freakin' funny! From the article:
"The lower court ruling state that the 15 Japanese women were taken to the brothel in Shanghai from Nagasaki in 1932, even though they were told they would work at diners for Japanese military personnel or at restaurants in Shanghai."
Hence this court ruling is pretty much unrelated to the question whether the Japanese government condoned, allowed or supported the coercion of non-Japanese women into sex slavery.

Could you show me any books or articles which mentioned about forcible recruitment of Comfort women written by 1980?
Why?

Personnel took part in it as individuals.
Whether systematic or not, doesn't really matter (also from the UNHCHR):
"a Government and its officials could be held liable for violations of international law under a theory of "original liability" for acts performed by a Government and "actions of the lower agents or private individuals as are performed at the Government's command or with its authorization"
[...]
The responsible State is then liable "to pay compensation for injurious acts of its officials which, although unauthorized, fall within the normal scope of their duties".
[...]
Thus, Japan is liable for the actions of its military and any of its agents, including the private individuals who ran and profited from "comfort stations" at the request of the Japanese military."
 

urecco

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bossel said:
Ah, of course, not directly. Why didn't I indulge in those wonderful wordplays?
As you mentioned, Japan had responsiblility to prevent crimes.But it did not work perfectly.So he appologized.

What I asked you to show is any document which shows systematic coercion.
And you did not show it.
bossel said:
From the UNHCHR link:
"These facts, as stipulated by the Japanese Government, clearly demonstrate that contrary to repeated claims that the so-called "comfort women" "worked" in privately administered brothels, the women, many of whom were still children at the time, were in fact enslaved in rape centres either directly by the Japanese military or with the full knowledge and support of the Japanese military. The women and children who were held there against their will inside these "comfort stations" were then subjected to acts of rape and sexual violence on such a massive scale that the nature of the crime may only properly be described as a crime against humanity."
What Japanese government says is written the link which you showed.
http://www.awf.or.jp/english/about/archives/1993_1.html
Can you show the original article of Japanese government which says Comfort Stations were rape camps?

bossel said:
Totsuka? Don't know this name (& I don't know, why you insist on professional historians. Just being a historian doesn't make you an expert on the issue of comfort women [else I would be an expert, too. why then argue with me?]). Look at this list on the same website, you'll find the names of some Japanese historians, if you need.
I said "Any historians now do not say "the military directly coerced them"
And you said "Liar!?" and showed the link.
From the link I found him.So I said he is not a historian (I did not lie).
bossel said:
Now you're getting freakin' funny! From the article:
"The lower court ruling state that the 15 Japanese women were taken to the brothel in Shanghai from Nagasaki in 1932, even though they were told they would work at diners for Japanese military personnel or at restaurants in Shanghai."
Hence this court ruling is pretty much unrelated to the question whether the Japanese government condoned, allowed or supported the coercion of non-Japanese women into sex slavery.
He is using that incident as a proof of "Comfort Women."
So I implied he is not a good researcher.
Korean were technically Japanese though.
bossel said:
I mentioned how this issue broke up and the begining was fabrication.
And no real evidence has been found.

You said history is the reason why you think there was systematic coercion.
so I wanted to know what is history.
bossel said:
Whether systematic or not, doesn't really matter (also from the UNHCHR):
"a Government and its officials could be held liable for violations of international law under a theory of "original liability" for acts performed by a Government and "actions of the lower agents or private individuals as are performed at the Government's command or with its authorization"
[...]
The responsible State is then liable "to pay compensation for injurious acts of its officials which, although unauthorized, fall within the normal scope of their duties".
[...]
Thus, Japan is liable for the actions of its military and any of its agents, including the private individuals who ran and profited from "comfort stations" at the request of the Japanese military."
Any Korean people have no right to get compansation for the Japanese act due to the treaty in 1965.
So Korea should pay everything.

And as you mentioned, Koizumi already apologized about Comfort women.

There are no need to write about individual crimes in the textbooks.

There is a big difference between individual crimes and systematic crimes of the military or authorities.

Think about it.
There were Mafia in Germany, and they kidnapped foreign women and forced them to provide sex.There were even cases that soldiers took part in the kidnapping.
Victim said "I was kidnapped by a German soldier."

Would you say the German military forced them to provide sex?
 

bossel

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urecco said:
As you mentioned, Japan had responsiblility to prevent crimes.But it did not work perfectly.So he appologized.
To use your own methods here: He did not apologise directly for not being able to prevent crimes. He said "The issue of comfort women, with an involvement of the Japanese military authorities at that time, was a grave affront to the honor and dignity of large numbers of women." Involvement goes a bit further than being "unable to prevent."

What I asked you to show is any document which shows systematic coercion.
And you did not show it.
There is not one single document (that I know of). There is enough evidence to give a general picture of the involvement of the Japanese military, though.

Coomaraswamy report to the UN:
"the consistency of the accounts of women from quite different parts of South-East Asia of the manner in which they were recruited and the clear involvement of the military and Government at different levels is indisputable.
[...]
The first comfort stations under direct Japanese control were those in Shanghai in 1932, and there is first-hand evidence of official involvement in their establishment. One of the commanders of the Shanghai campaign, Lieutenantツ―General Okamura Yasuji, confessed in his memoirs to have been the original proponent of comfort stations for the military."

International Commission of Jurists:
"1. The Japanese Imperial Army and Navy initiated the setting up of a vast network of comfort stations for the exclusive use and "enjoyment" of the Japanese Imperial Army and Navy, before and during the Second World War. The Japanese military planned and executed the provision of comfort facilities to its troops, wherever they were located. Chinese, Korean, Taiwanese, Filipino, Malaysian, Indonesian and Dutch women and girls were put into these comfort stations and sexual services were extracted from them under duress.

2. The taking of these women, even where it was done initially by private persons, was soon handled by the Japanese military itself. It appointed recruitment agents who were given special permits for travel to and from military establishments. These recruiters were actively assisted by the military (kempeitai) and local police, to ensure that the girls and women "volunteered". It is indisputable that these women were forced, deceived, coerced and abducted to provide sexual services to the Japanese military."

Can you show the original article of Japanese government which says Comfort Stations were rape camps?
Why should the Japanese government have to write this?

I said "Any historians now do not say "the military directly coerced them"
And you said "Liar!?" and showed the link.
From the link I found him.So I said he is not a historian (I did not lie).
From the link you'd have also found a number of Japanese historians. If you have problems with seeing things you don't like it's not my fault.

Korean were technically Japanese though.
So, when Koreans coerced women in the name of the Japanese military into Japanese brothels the Japanese military was responsible either way. Good point.

I mentioned how this issue broke up and the begining was fabrication.
And no real evidence has been found.
Crap! You mean no evidence you like has been found.

You said history is the reason why you think there was systematic coercion.
so I wanted to know what is history.
History is: the fact that there was a system under Japanese control to force women into sexual slavery.

There are no need to write about individual crimes in the textbooks.
Individual crimes are in history books.
The Japanese sex slave system was so widespread that it can't be called an individual crime, anyway. The number of up to 200,000 victims of the comfort women system bears witness to that.

There is a big difference between individual crimes and systematic crimes of the military or authorities.
Both can go hand in hand.

Would you say the German military forced them to provide sex?
Actually, yes, the German military in WWII did so.
 

urecco

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sorry for long post.

bossel said:
Coomaraswamy report to the UN:
"the consistency of the accounts of women from quite different parts of South-East Asia of the manner in which they were recruited and the clear involvement of the military and Government at different levels is indisputable.
[...]
The first comfort stations under direct Japanese control were those in Shanghai in 1932, and there is first-hand evidence of official involvement in their establishment. One of the commanders of the Shanghai campaign, Lieutenantツ―General Okamura Yasuji, confessed in his memoirs to have been the original proponent of comfort stations for the military."
The biggest issue is the way of recruitments.
]Coomaraswamy report to the UN: mentions.
Nearly all evidence concerning the recruitment of "comfort women" comes from the oral testimony of the victims themselves.
Testimonies are not enough to prove anything.If they were,UFOs and Nessie would be proven.
People need to examine the testimonies.
About recruitments,Coomoraswamy just picked up these theree testimonies.

about no.54,she said
"I was taken to the police station in a truck, where I was raped by several policemen. "
In Korea,over 50% of Policemen were Korean.
I wonder if Korean raped her as well as Japanese.
And she said.
"There were around400 other Korean young girls with me and we had to serve over 5,000 Japanese soldiers as sex slaves everyday - up to 40 men per day "
Firstly,there should be rumour about missing 400 young girls.
It must be impossible to kidnapped 400 girls without any witnesses.
Are there any dairies, newspapers or whatever mentioning missing girls?
Secondly,the fact that 400 girls were raped by 40 soldiers a day means that about 5,000 soldiers raped girls 3 times a day.It would be guite tough.
Thirdly,if that comfort station was supervised by agent, military could not pay the money for about 16,000 rapes a day,so it should be supervised directly the military.However,there were no comfort station supervised directly by the military in North Korea (if I am wrong,please let me know)
"One Korean girl caught a venereal disease from being raped so often and, as a result, over 50 Japanese soldiers were infected. In order to stop the disease from spreading and to 'sterilize' the Korean girl, they stuck a hot iron bar in her private parts. "
One Korean girl caught a veneral disease from being raped thus the one of guys who raped her had caught a venereal disease before that.On average,soldiers raped 3 times a day,girls were raped 40 times a day.It must have been speread widely.
If there were 50 soldiers infected,why was only one girls tortured like that?
And the military order soldiers to use condoms in order to prevent venereal diseases for keeping their strength.
"I think over half of the girls who were at the garrison barracks were killed. Twice I tried to run away, but both times we were caught after a few days. "
Even though she tried to run away twice,she survived.What did the half of the girls who were killed do?

about No.55
there are several questions.
Who drived the Japanese truck? Japanese agent? Korean agent? or soider?
When she realised there were not factory,what did she ask about it?
Did she understand Japanese?
Who managed the Comfort Places.
"She tried to resist the men and bit one of them in his arm. She was then taken to the courtyard and in front of all of us, her head was cut of f with a sword and her body was cut into small piece.. "
This thing never happened if agents managed the Comfort Place,because she could earn much money and there was no reason to miss it.
Even it was managed by the military,it was big loss to kill comfort women.
Why were "all of us" at the courtyard? Many soldiers were queuing.
How did she know the girl had bitten?
Of course there is a possiblity that the soldier was high rank and gathered everyone and explained what she had done and killed her as a kind of show trial.But if so,she would say so.
To cut into small pieces...By sward?

No.56
she was 73 years old in 1995 when the report published.
She went to work the Japanese military factory,when she was 17 (in 1939)
She worked there for 3 years (untill 1942)
She was raped and she forced to be Comfort Women.
She worked as Comfort Women for 5 years (untill 1947)
cf. Japan lost in 1945.


You guys might think "this revisionist is too captious."
However if you want to critisize something without real evidence,there must be a massive amount of oral testimonies without any incoherances and circumstantial evidence.

For some people,the testimonies of no.54,55 might be very reliable,however no.56 is definately crap.And also in the meaning of examination, Coomoraswamy report is crap.

Circumstance evidence.

Korean historians argue there were 200,000 Korean comfort women.
And chinese historians argue there were 200,000 Chinese comfort women.
If so,at least there were 400,000 comfort women.
And people say they were raped 10 to 40 times a day.
At least 95% of Comfort stations were managed by private agents.
A sex cost at least 1.5yen.The salary of low rank soldiers was 12 yen per month.
The total number of Japanese military was about 4 million.
You can easily know 400,000 comfort women is a myth.

There was no movement against comfort women in Korea during the war.
Korean gov't never mentioned about comfort women in the treaty of 1965 even though both Japan and Korea promised to renounced every right (including individuals')to claim about the fact in Japanese ruled era.

China never claimed about Comfort women when they executed the war criminals.

Only one comfort station was claimed by Holland.
Okada was executed for it.
However,Japan had banned forcible recruitments and Holland never claimed about the responsiblity of Japan.

U.S. official report for Comfort Women in 1944.
Report No. 49: Japanese Prisoners of War Interrogation on Prostitution: La Segunda Guerra Mundial

After the campaign of Asahi Shinbun,this issue broked up.
It is false accusation.
 

bossel

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urecco said:
The biggest issue is the way of recruitments.
That's just you, as I said.
The issue is responsibility for the whole sex slave system.

Testimonies are not enough to prove anything.
That depends on the testimonies.

About recruitments,Coomoraswamy just picked up these theree testimonies.
Used these 3 as examples.

In Korea,over 50% of Policemen were Korean.
Hmm, didn't you say these Koreans were technically Japanese? What's more, the police worked for the Japanese, hence Japanese responsibility.

If you have problems with parts of these testimonies or with the report in general, contact the rapporteur or raise a formal complaint & then let us know the reaction.

oral testimonies without any incoherances
Actually, it would be quite surprising if there were no incoherences in witness accounts.
 

Shibuyaexpat

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urecco,
I'm still trying understand your argument through that catalog of what you deem as facts. Are you arguing that comfort women never existed or are you stating that because the numbers don't quite add up that their existence is overblown or exaggerated?

Pardon me if i sound dismissive of your post, but it's similar to other posts I've seen (not from you) related to the Nanjing Massacre--in that, through the act of tallying up facts and figures you hope to dismiss the campaigns of the Japanese Imperial Army in Asia. As I've stated in other posts, the fact is that the Japanese Army, unlike the German one, did not keep meticulous records. A lot of what we know now that happened during the European campaign stems from the Nazi's own records. Therefore, we are in a situation where verbal testimony (where and when available) is the only means of extrapolating the past events. Are those perfect? Are they 100% accurate? Do they fit within your criteria of "valid" information? No. But they are an account of people who were invaded by another country.

To your comment: "In Korea,over 50% of Policemen were Korean. I wonder if Korean raped her as well as Japanese." I not only find this insulting, but rather inane on your part. That's the equivalent of laying sole blame on the Jewish prisoners who helped the Nazis in the concentration camps for the deaths of other Jews who weren't complying. Allow me to interpret your argument: Japan invaded Korea. Koreans willfully, gladly and eagerly join the Japanese police force. Koreans, with no fear of their lives or the lives of their families, willing rape women of their own nationality. Japanese Army quietly sat by, disgusted with Koreans' low morality. Tell you what, let me put a gun to your head or the heads of your family, and then demand that you rape your mother/sister/aunt. And then lay the blame on you for actually doing it. A bit severe, but I hope you understand my point on this.

And finally, I don't see the relevance of the U.S. official report for Comfort Women in 1944, especially since the case of comfort women became more documented in the decades to follow. Why were the cases brought forth so late? Well, there's this little thing in Korea called a social stigma, see. A woman's virginity (and therefore, moral standing) is paramount to her future life as wife, mother, etc. To be gang-raped is not something a woman openly discusses with a lot of people.

By your comments and those of other revisionists on the issue of comfort-women, I would have to assume that a) women in Japan often report cases of rape, forced sex, and sex slavery, as clearly from your comments, you can't understand why they would wait so long to tell their story; or b) rape, forced sex and sex slavery never happens in Japan, and that all those reported cases here are just in fact, more fabrications of prostitues.
 

A.A. Lee

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There is no doubt in my mind that the Japanese commited atrocities in Asia. And they were systematic crimes of the military. Sure they didn't record a lot of the things they did like the Germans did, but there are stories, zillions of them, too many to be denied, and the unrelenting hatred of many older generations of Chinese and East Asians towards the Japanese. Japan can deny such war crimes all they want, but the world knows. There may be no hard evidence for forced prostitution during WWII, but it's believable considering all of the other things that happened.

I don't think there's any way one can compensate the victims of war crimes. I mean if Germany was to pay the survivors of Holocaust money for their pain and suffering, how much would be enough? No amount of money could ever make up for it. All people can do now is acknowledge the error of our ways and write laws against these crimes. I don't think the Japanese of today should have to pay for their fathers errors, but they should at least admit that these events happened. It angers me when someone tries to dismiss them with whatever reasoning. The testimony of the people count.
 
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