Rewriting History Again "Japan to Revise Books on WWII Suicides"

[KirinMan]

Probably the greatest difference in the four or five counties/areas in the East Asia, Okinawa, China, Taiwan and Koreas would be non-Japanese can get a teaching positon in a national university even if he conducts his research, the Okinawa's independece from Japan.

Pipokun....FYI Okinawa has been a part of Japan since the 1800's. Do I need to put a link here with the "history" of Japan here to prove my point?

Okinawa was and still is a prefecture of Japan during and after WWII.

Anyways, it is highly likely that the stupid number, 110000, would ruin the great debate in Japan.

Stupid number?....Then pray tell why has the Japanese goverment agreed to review this issue, and why have the publishing companies also agreed to change the texts back to include the previously accepted information?

I don't think it is McCarthyism that rules in Okinawa, but it is just the blood-ruled society. No matter how loud anti-US base activist you are, you can find relatives who get money from the base. Then you turn to be silent.

Nothing to do with the topic at hand, just another attempt by you to throw a red herring into the discussion to take it off topic. This topic is about the proposed changes to the textbooks and has nothing to do with base issues.

Simple doubt
"The Japanese armed forces forced suicide."
If it is a fact,
What is profit of the Japanese armed forces?

Dying for the Emperor.....and as a "true" Japanese of that era, never admitting defeat, and if faced with defeat, committing suicide to attone for not fulfilling ones duty to the Emperor. Plain and simple.

Or another way of looking at it, running away when the battle was lost, and not facing the "shame" of defeat.

 

[KirinMan]

My questions are: Were there many Japanese people living on the Okinawa island?
Were the people from Okinawa pro or anti-Japan during WWII?

Elizabeth Okinawa was a part of Japan, and had been since around 1870 or so, give or take a few years. So all Okinawan's were "Japanese" at the time, however they were looked down towards and serverly discriminated against because of their being "different" from mainland Japanese. They were not totally accepted as being "equal" to Japanese from mainland.

The people of Okinawa had NO choice in the matter of being pro or anti Japanese. The ones that the Japanese Imperial Army thought were "anti" Japanese were executed. That is also a fact.

Okinawan people were forbidden from speaking their local dialect and also forbidden from practicing anything from their culture. People who spoke the local dialect were assasinated as spies. That is a fact as well.

Funny thing about it though is after the war was over and during the "clean up" operations by the US Military many Japanese from the Imperial Army deserted and tried to hide themselves amongst the local Okinawan refugees.

They were weeded out from the "true" Okinawan's by people speaking to them in the local dialect, and when they couldnt understand or didnt follow the directions given in the local dialect were taken as Japanese POW's.

One of the things they outlawed came back and bit them in the arse. Talk about poetic justice.

 

[pipokun]

Pipokun....FYI Okinawa has been a part of Japan since the 1800's. Do I need to put a link here with the "history" of Japan here to prove my point?
...

Thank you for your info, but I know. So I used the word, area.

Stupid number?....Then pray tell why has the Japanese goverment agreed to review this issue, and why have the publishing companies also agreed to change the texts back to include the previously accepted information?

I don't think the history should not be changed by the "feeling". So I said it was really scared.

*snip2*
So tell me what McCarthy has to do with this topic. As I thought he was irrelevant here, I used *snip*.

 

[KirinMan]

Thank you for your info, but I know. So I used the word, area.
I don't think the history should not be changed by the "feeling". So I said it was really scared.
*snip2*
So tell me what McCarthy has to do with this topic. As I thought he was irrelevant here, I used *snip*.

History isnt being changed, facts are the facts, it's just the previous Japanese administration tried to rewrite it, and got it's fingers caught in the cookie jar.

McCarthy is a figure of speach, meaning that whomever always claims that it is because of communists this or communists that are seeing them behind every corner like McCarthy did many years ago. Reread the previous threads and you will know what and who I am refering to.

Latily it isnt a feeling it is a fact, that is what you what changed not me.

Even though you used the word area you refered to Okinawa as a different country, that is a fact as well, and on that you were wrong, I just pointed it out to you that's all, no big deal

 

[Elizabeth van Kampen]

Thank you Obeika,

So before 1870, Okinawa was an independent island, did not belong to Japan.
I knew that their culture was a little different from the Japanese.

I have really tried very hard to understand the Japanese in general. I have two Japanese friends, both ladies are in their sixties. But maybe it is impossible to become friends with Japanese men.

pipokun and caster lets us foreigners look in the mirror of our countries past historries. I have given honest answers about the wrongs in the past of my country in Indonesia.
Yet nor caster nor pipokun can simply admit: "Yes my country has been wrong during WWII".

Each time I notice that we can't get open and friendly discussions, it is always the same; WE are the liars.

 

[Ewok85]

Oh please, just because you call Okinawa part of Japan doesn't make the people instantly Japanese after a generation or two of annexation - they had their own language which was still around in the 1940's - doesn't that say something about them not being "Japanese" but uniquely "Okinawan".

 

[pipokun]

Even though you used the word area you refered to Okinawa as a different country, that is a fact as well, and on that you were wrong, I just pointed it out to you that's all, no big deal

You are totally wrong. I didn't say Okinawa was a different country like the Chinese professor in Ryukyu Uni. junjunforever, he/she brought up the question, "What do the three have in common"?
And of course I know not all Japanese in Okinawa do not support the lefy agitators.

Elizabeth van Kampen
I have really tried very hard to understand the Japanese in general. I have two Japanese friends, both ladies are in their sixties. But maybe it is impossible to become friends with Japanese men.
pipokun and caster lets us foreigners look in the mirror of our countries past historries. I have given honest answers about the wrongs in the past of my country in Indonesia.
Yet nor caster nor pipokun can simply admit: "Yes my country has been wrong during WWII".

What an easy generalisation...
Don't worry that I don't have any generalisation.

I know the government is totally different from you. And I am just answering your statement that Japanese people do not know anything or Japan did nothing about the war. You may claim that Japan is the ultra-militaristic country, but Obeika, probably an American, is the good example who peacefully lives in Japan now.

*snip for Obeika*
Thanks, but no need to explain McCarthy. In the context of Okinawa, the US tried to brainwash the people and conducted the red purge, but it is the people who chose the return to Japan.

 

[KirinMan]

You are totally wrong. I didn't say Okinawa was a different country like the Chinese professor in Ryukyu Uni. junjunforever, he/she brought up the question, "What do the three have in common"?

Im wrong? Read what you wrote, You wrote it not me.

Probably the greatest difference in the four or five counties/areas in the East Asia, Okinawa, China, Taiwan and Koreas would be non-Japanese can get a teaching positon in a national university even if he conducts his research, the Okinawa's independece from Japan.

And that has nothing to do with the rewriting history textbooks either. However your comment is borderline racist in my opinion. I know what you are trying to infer here and you are wrong.

Correct me if I am wrong, but you are saying that because it may be possible that a non-Japanese prof is teaching these outlandish ideas that the Japanese Imperial Army forced suicides that the people have been brainwashed into believing it to be fact, when you believe it is fiction. Right?

 

[KirinMan]

Refute this ok?

Okinawa may defeat textbook censorship
Notice the word censorship here and just to refresh anyones memories here about what exactly censorship means,
First the word censoring;

A person authorized to examine books, films, or other material and to remove or suppress what is considered morally, politically, or otherwise objectionable.
An official, as in the armed forces, who examines personal mail and official dispatches to remove information considered secret or a risk to security.

Now the word censorship;

the act or practice of censoring.

Now then, why use the word censorship? If the textbooks were incorrect in the first place the proper word that might be used is revision.
Censorship makes me at least think of supression of accurate information.

Although Tokai said he wants to quell Okinawa's anger, he earlier indicated it would be difficult to retract the instruction because it would be perceived as "intervention by politics into textbook screenings."
But he did not comment on whether politics played a role in the ministry's March instruction that publishers rewrite references on the mass suicides and mass murder-suicides of civilians in Okinawa.

However this quote from the article bothers me, he openly states the difficulty in perception because of politics. Yet he cant open his mouth and admit that it was politics in the first place that caused this uproar.
But then that is typically Japanese to me, not being able to openly admit when a mistake has been made, without it causing shame to everyone involved in the process.

This statement in italics here is my opinion and observation here, whether people here agree or not that is their choice, I am not going to discuss or comment to any replies about this statement here. Thanks for understanding.

 

[caster51]

my prefecture was also independent country before 1600
Aizu wakamatsu was conquered by J-gorven..

the US tried to brainwash the people and conducted the red purge, but it is the people who chose the return to Japan.

okinawan times started as U.S propaganda newspaper.

BTW
I agree with okinawa independence
it will be a good chance to take U.S force out from Okinawa.

Yaeyama of okinawa pre. is not okinawans..
they have an another histoty

Kurara report

 

[caster51]

Okinawa independence

Souka cult..

labor union..


the problem is that there are ppl who tell loud " there were so many ppls like 110,000" though the number is not the probrem

 

[KirinMan]

Caster what does your post have to do with the topic?

 

[pipokun]

Im wrong? Read what you wrote, You wrote it not me.
And that has nothing to do with the rewriting history textbooks either. However your comment is borderline racist in my opinion. I know what you are trying to infer here and you are wrong.
Correct me if I am wrong, but you are saying that because it may be possible that a non-Japanese prof is teaching these outlandish ideas that the Japanese Imperial Army forced suicides that the people have been brainwashed into believing it to be fact, when you believe it is fiction. Right?

I do not understand what you are talking about.
PRC, N/S Korea is a country, though Japan does not have diplomatic relations with the DPRK...
Okinawa is an area, not a country at all. And I know each island in Okinawa claim their uniqueness like the one in Kansai, Kobe, Osaka, Kyoto, and Nara.
But Taiwan is a bit difficult. Just go to threads something like "Taiwan is the part of China" or "Taiwan is an idependent country".

But then that is typically Japanese to me, not being able to openly admit when a mistake has been made, without it causing shame to everyone involved in the process.

Just bring the source, the military order, if you are not a daydreamer. And don't worry I have my English-English dictionary installed in my computer.
Your argument is exactly the same in the one as in your favorit confort woman issue.

Nobody denys the military brothel or the mass-suicide in this topic, but...

 

[KirinMan]

Japan is never guilty of anything to you guys. It has become a beat around the bush listen to your red herrings.


You know in a way I dont blame you for not accepting it, it was your teachers fault while you were in JHS and HS for not educating you about the facts about WWII and Japan's involvement in it. I actually feel sorry and have sympathy for you.

It isnt your fault. Blame your teachers for not learning about it.

Nice attempt at trying to pull the topic off again. But I am not replying anymore to either of yours or casters ludicrous thoughts and opinions that this didnt happen.

You guys lost it with me when you tried to challenge the fact that over 110,000 Japanese people protested against this. You both now come across to me as being discrminatory people in your beliefs.

It was Japanese people that protested, YOUR people, YOUR fellow country men and women. Yet you refuse to believe. I actually feel pity.

 

[caster51]

It isnt your fault. Blame your teachers for not learning about it.

LOL. I was taught. but I might drop out.

You guys lost it with me when you tried to challenge the fact that over 110,000 Japanese people protested against this.

oh really?
a major newspaper expose that was faked.

It was Japanese people that protested, YOUR people, YOUR fellow country men and women. Yet you refuse to believe. I actually feel pity

what are you talking?
issue of protest(beliveing) and fact are defferent problem..
it is not a political and emotional problem.
now they are demanding okinawan stipulations.
that is , if okinawan does not want..., it would not be permitted.

Caster what does your post have to do with the topic?

It is their true colors
btw obeika,can you understand Japanese language?
if you can, you would understand this.
this is a also fact
Kurara report

 

[junjunforever]

The reason okinawa refuses the textbook change is simple.


Okinawaians have been segregated and have been a target of racism as long as anyone can remember. Unlike other prefactures, it has its own distinguished history and a sense of unity. THe racism agaisnt okinawans have died out maybe only a decade or two ago.

Everyone knows Amuro Namie was Okinawaian. Why were Okianawa people so proud of her? Because they had long history of being discrimianted by the mainland Japanese. They were happy that after a long time, such a popstar could come out of their culture and uphold their culture, much like how japanese feel about Ichiro.

Again, let me reitereate. THIS IS NOTHING NEW. Japanese government and caster will attack asians and okinawans with the dumbest arguments. Youtube clips of some nameless person hating China, or some extreme protestors from Okinawa wanting to rebel.

Blabbering my caster and co do not have anything to do with the history at hand. It is common sense. Japan have series of mass suicide on record during WW2. The schools in tokyo was blasting through the speakers that everyone should die for the emperor. Imperial government and army forced their racist and wrong ideals on civilians, and many civilians were casualties from that.

The bottom line is, Japan is trying to change the history.

Again.

 

[pipokun]

Do you know, Obeika, news shows of TV Asahi, have just started claiming something like...
"Who cares the number, 110,000 or 20,000, the people's feeling is more important"
I know the exaggeration happens quite often esp., in the politicized issues, so I don't take the number seriously, but the media who just trumpeted this is the problem I really concern here.

You know in a way I dont blame you for not accepting it, it was your teachers fault while you were in JHS and HS for not educating you about the facts about WWII

The teachers were quite liberal anti-national flag and anthem, and WWII loving ones.
A music teacher once said, "I have to teach you Kimigayo".
It was quite an eye-opener that my friends from Okinawa in the college told me about the far-left activists in Okinawa.

It was Japanese people that protested, YOUR people, YOUR fellow country men and women. Yet you refuse to believe. I actually feel pity.

Refused to believe? Who?
You should use the word, some people, for it seems to me that YOUR people include all people in Okinawa.

Calling someone a racist is not a good idea, even if you believe in what you may call the world citizen, multiculturalism, or whatever you like.

 

[caster51]

Everyone knows Amuro Namie was Okinawaian. Why were Okianawa people so proud of her?

I like her.
I think most japanese is proud of her.

Aizu ppl was the more discriminated than okinawan.

 

[caster51]

Japanese government and caster will attack asians and okinawans with the dumbest arguments. Youtube clips of some nameless person hating China, or some extreme protestors from Okinawa wanting to rebel.

wow , why do I hate okinawan?
I have many okinawan friends
I said many times in this topic ' okinawan fought until last at that time
I am proud of okinawan.
I Knew that how they fought with miserable and pitiful through "Minoru ota's message"
my hope is as same as ota's one.
indeed, I dont want okinawan to be like the Korean

I think this is a relevance

there were many people in okinaw who committed suicide for the reasons that the disgrace by enemy would not be accepted as traditional things

so is at saipan , banzai cliff

 

[KirinMan]

You know what this discussion is no longer about textbook revison to you guys.

You are attempting to get people here to think or believe that;

First off that over 110,000 Okinawan people didnt participate in the protest
Which my the way is wrong, you guys dont want to face the fact that it was possible. It happened, there are just too many videos and pictures to dispute it. You are either blind to facts or are something else which I will not stoop to write here. I dont need to prove anything here, the proof is overwhelming. Oh and if that many didnt participate just how many did?

Next you think that Okinawan people have been overlyinfluenced by some sort of leftist propaganda and teaching that created this impasse.

Again wrong, the people that participated in this protest were from every segment of society and not limited to one political view or another. All political parties were joined together to protest this issue.

Oh dont forget either that the LDP is also popular among voters here, so to extend your logic here just a little you are calling stalwart members of the LDP leftist because they participated in this demonstration. I say that because I know of "card-carrying" members of the LDP that were there in support.

Use your heads guys, it isnt about you, you are not going to get hurt by these changes. In fact it's taking it back to the staus quo. I would rather it go further, but that isnt the point here. You know whats really great about all of this, is that throughout Japan kids and adults as well are getting "educated" through the generosity of the press about this issue. That is priceless...people generally can make their own decisions on what to think or believe.


One year ago you didnt even know about this, now that it becomes news you hypocrtically jump on a bandwagon that you never knew existed.

I say it's hypocritical because for all these years the textbooks had the information written in them and you said nor complained about anything.

Your HS textbooks had this written, why didnt you complain sooner? And please dont say we just found out about it....you were taught this back in HS, along with the rest of Japan.

Also in response to the line, paraphrasing here;..."I have some Okinawan friends........"

You want to know why that comes across as racist to me?

They are Japanese friends from Okinawa, big difference. I let you try and figure out what that difference is. Good luck

 

[junjunforever]

I like her.
I think most japanese is proud of her.
Aizu ppl was the more discriminated than okinawan.

Aizu? i really never heard of them. I heard of much discrimination from Buraku, Okinawans, Ainus and Choseon-Koreans. THey usually include not no jobs, not allowed housing, and not allowed in onsens and sentos. But there are cases where mass murder was committed such as during the Kanto earthquake less than 100 years ago.

Actually japan is the only developed country in the world without any law forbidding racial discrimination. It was only 4 years ago, a white person had to sue an onsen to allowed entrance.

But i really dotn know what you are trying to argue. If Amuro Namie was from Chiba, nobody would have known she was from Chiba. Since she was from Okinawa, everybody knew she was from Okinawa. She marked start of ending of discrimination of okinawans in Japan.


You say you dont want okinawans to be like koreans. I actually think japanese okinawaians, koreans, chiense, americans and europeans are all the same.

Racism exist in korea or china. But it is forbidden by law and racists are looked as bad. People like you cause japan to be seen as a racist nation. A name that it doesnt deserve.

 

[diceke]

Aizu? i really never heard of them. I heard of much discrimination from Buraku, Okinawans, Ainus and Choseon-Koreans. THey usually include not no jobs, not allowed housing, and not allowed in onsens and sentos. But there are cases where mass murder was committed such as during the Kanto earthquake less than 100 years ago.

Actually japan is the only developed country in the world without any law forbidding racial discrimination. It was only 4 years ago, a white person had to sue an onsen to allowed entrance.

But i really dotn know what you are trying to argue. If Amuro Namie was from Chiba, nobody would have known she was from Chiba. Since she was from Okinawa, everybody knew she was from Okinawa. She marked start of ending of discrimination of okinawans in Japan.


You say you dont want okinawans to be like koreans. I actually think japanese okinawaians, koreans, chiense, americans and europeans are all the same.

Racism exist in korea or china. But it is forbidden by law and racists are looked as bad. People like you cause japan to be seen as a racist nation. A name that it doesnt deserve.

It has nothing to do with the topic, but racial discrimination is forbidden by the constitution. Ignorance personified!

 

[caster51]

Aizu? i really never heard of them. I heard of much discrimination from Buraku, Okinawans, Ainus and Choseon-Koreans

you should study more about their history
They received disgrace that was crueller than Okinawa.
first immigrant to USA were aizu ppls because of discrimination as rebel army.

nobody would have known she was from Chiba. Since she was from Okinawa, everybody knew she was from Okinawa. She marked start of ending of discrimination of okinawans in Japan.

what are you talking about?
there are more famous okinawan before her
沖縄県出身の人物一覧 - Wikipedia

Your HS textbooks had this written, why didnt you complain sooner? And please dont say we just found out about it....you were taught this back in HS, along with the rest of Japan

.
it is because of a tokashiki's case

 

[KirinMan]

it is because of a tokashiki's case

You only learned of that because of what happened now I am willing to bet. The textbooks have had this information in them for years.

 

[junjunforever]

It has nothing to do with the topic, but racial discrimination is forbidden by the constitution. Ignorance personified!
Plz, stop calling people brainless.

is racial discrimination really forbidden by the japanese "constitution"? I think you should either read up more or actually live in Japan. Ever heard of bars where foreigners cant enter? or a small city in the countryside barring foreigners from living in apartments just two or three years ago?

Not really, according to the Yunohara Onsen case.

# Feb 2001: Three people excluded-- naturalized Japanese citizen Arudou Debito, German Olaf Karthaus and American Ken Sutherland --took one Otaru onsen (hot spring) and the City of Otaru to court for, respectively, racial discrimination, and negligence under the Constitution and UN treaty.
# Nov 2002: The Sapporo's District Court's ruling held Onsen Yunohana culpable, ordering restitution to the three plaintiffs of 1 million yen each. However, the Court ruled that the illegal activity was not racial discrimination per se, but "unrational discrimination", i.e. "discriminating too much", thus avoiding clear litmus tests for future lawsuits. This legal reasoning has been ruled invalid repeatedly by the United Nations.


So basically, the hokkaido court said that the discrimination itself was not bad per se, but that the discrimination had negative effect to the society, and only because ti had negative effect, it was disallowed.