take my advice...

[alexriversan]

it can help you in english too.

if you make up a sentence containing:

nobody, everyone, must, cannot, most of, many, etc.

just drop that sentence.

do not think all day, but *think* about that.

until you figured out yourself why.

thank you.

--------------

edit. hope you get the point. old-fashioned terms for that are:
can not -> "denyer": something is denied. nothing else is communicated.
most/everyone: "grouper": a virtual group is made up (which does not exist)

new term: this is "negative talking". is is not necessary. it makes people sad. it makes people angry. it steals people's time.

nobody -> tell who
everyone -> tell who
must -> command, urge
can not -> tell what can
most of/many -> tell exact number
words like "little" have often fancy purpose.

this may help you to learn japanese, and you provide "understanding simply better".

 

[Mike Cash]

I can not think about it. Nobody can think about it. You must tell most of us your reasoning. Or at least tell many of us. Everyone is anxious to know.

 

[alexriversan]

I can not think about it. Nobody can think about it. You must tell most of us your reasoning. Or at least tell many of us. Everyone is anxious to know.

very good. thank you.

 

[rajs20]

 

[lexico]

Counter porposal to Alexiriversan's

Why your proposal makes much sense.
I think I understand what you want to say; that often every/many/some people make generalizations that have not be substantiated. Notice in my sentence I used everyone/many/some people & often ? This in a textbook of logic is called ther error of hasty generalization. It would help to prevent unnecessary arguments and attacks, verbal and physical if we could cleanse our language of all such misleading expressions, as you propose !

But what about casual talk ?
However, we also know that not everything can be verified, nor is it absolutely necessary to do so. From a practical point of view, it would also make so many people unable to speak their minds. Would that not be considered a prison of free speech if your porposal were to be put to practice to the letter ?

Little things we need
Also logic requires that we understand the ideas denoted by
!. All
@. None
#. Neither (all or none) but Some.

Also Some can be either Most/Almost all (every) or Few/Almost none. These expressions do have logical values and help us comminicate even when exact knowledge is absent. So, eventhough your proposal of abolishing the use of such terms is admirable, shouldn't we give at least some allowance for the use of these words when they are absolutely/quite/probably/possibly/remotely justifiable ?

New standard for everyday speech (in response to your proposal.)
That is, as long as the degree of uncertainty is always duely noted and expressed by the speaker, and demanded by the listener in every day speech ?

 

[alexriversan]

i spent time about these things myself.

instead of ALL, it is more interesting WHO indeed.

instead of NONE, it is more interesting WHO not.

it does not mean strict cleaning of language, but to avoid unecessary, unverifyable generalization.

i.e.
WRONG
ALL children perform these excercises.
RIGHT
our class has this exercise on schedule.

WRONG
NO CHILD gets around these exercises.
RIGHT
YOU are not getting around this exercise.

WRONG
YOU CAN NOT SOLVE IT, EVERYONE ELSE CAN SOLVE IT
RIGHT
"kumo-san" is good at the this exercise, probably you can team up with him.

WRONG
NOBODY cares about your difficulties
RIGHT
I do not care about your difficulty in ..... because i do not understand it myself.

the last example shows "ill-speak".

 

[alexriversan]

Also logic requires that we understand the ideas denoted by

!. All
@. None
#. Neither (all or none) but Some.

especially if talking about others, which are not there. otherwise, "these"/"our" will do.

 

[Mike Cash]

"take my advice".......sounds pushy, domineering, conceited, arrogant, and threatening. It is best not to use phrases with those qualities.

 

[alexriversan]

at least i am not backward (backside orientated)

"take my advice".......sounds pushy, domineering, conceited, arrogant, and threatening. It is best not to use phrases with those qualities.

pushy: Disagreeably aggressive or forward.
domineering: To rule over or control arbitrarily or arrogantly; tyrannize.

conceited: A favorable and especially unduly high opinion of one's own abilities or worth.
An ingenious or witty turn of phrase or thought.

A fanciful poetic image, especially an elaborate or exaggerated comparison.
A poem or passage consisting of such an image.

The result of intellectual activity; a thought or an opinion.
A fanciful thought or idea.

arrogant: Marked by or arising from a feeling or assumption of one's superiority toward others:

threatening:
To express a threat against.
To be a source of danger to; menace.
To give signs or warning of; portend.
To announce the possibility of in a threat

mikecash, i agree to be pushy, domineering, conceited and arrogant to some degree.

my thread is a threat against stupidity and negative communication.

people are differrent. what about to write this down, on a piece of paper, only three times?

WRONG
NOBODY cares about your difficulties
RIGHT
I do not care about your difficulty in ..... because i do not understand it myself.

if you do so, you get a picture of "ill-speak".
you do not have to. i do not have to. people are not equal.

 

[Mike Cash]

I was illustrating absurdity with absurdity, in case you missed it.

 

[alexriversan]

I was illustrating absurdity with absurdity, in case you missed it.

you illustrated, very good.

now something different. what about to write this down, on a piece of paper, only three times?

WRONG
NOBODY cares about your difficulties
RIGHT
I do not care about your difficulty in ..... because i do not understand it myself.

 

[Mike Cash]

For somebody so bent on accentuating the positive and eliminating the negative, you sure are handy with the red rep points. Hardly the sort of thing one crusading for spreading joy up to the minimum and bringing gloom down to the minimum could be expected to do. But I suppose people do all sorts of things when they think no one is looking.

 

[alexriversan]

For somebody so bent on accentuating the positive and eliminating the negative, you sure are handy with the red rep points. Hardly the sort of thing one crusading for spreading joy up to the minimum and bringing gloom down to the minimum could be expected to do. But I suppose people do all sorts of things when they think no one is looking.

good. you have not written "everybody performs things when feeling unobserved". you explain you suppose people would perform these things.

i do not eliminate the negative. i just try to have conversations with people. if ONE teacher changes the mood from "NO ONE" to "I DO" my post makes sense.

 

[RockLee]

Ain't it hard enough for non-english people to study english in a normal way already :? Besides, sometimes generalizations are made.

 

[alexriversan]

Ain't it hard enough for non-english people to study english in a normal way already :? Besides, sometimes generalizations are made.

it merely addresses people who say "i can not" "nobody cares about" frequently. though generalization occurs.

communicating what can be done makes it obvious, what not can be done.
psychology operates by parsing spoken language for specific patterns.
this does not recognize everything. but there are some classical things. like to talk most likely using "i can not".

 

[mad pierrot]

I've been wanting to post in this thread for awhile, but couldn't think of anything good.

 

[alexriversan]

to write correct japanese- not pseudo-japanese, in romanji, including big letters

I've been wanting to post in this thread for awhile, but couldn't think of anything good.

thank you for letting me know. do you (the reader) agree/do you disagree:

WRONG
ALL children perform these excercises.
RIGHT
our class has this exercise on schedule.

i try to learn japanese: it does not use plural form.
otherwise this would belong to a psychology forum...

 

[Alter Zetsuei]

Generalizations can sometimes be used as sarcasim which can be interpretted as light humour.

 

[bentenmusume]

You know, while I can see where you're coming from here, it's kind of ironic that in a post that decries the idea of making overly general or negative statements when there are more specific or positive things to be said, the tone of your own words goes against the very point you're trying to make.

WRONG

If you make up a sentence containing nobody, everyone, must, cannot, most of, many, etc. just drop that sentence.

RIGHT
Though there are times when generalizations are necessary or a useful rhetorical device, on the whole I would argue that it's best to avoid words like "nobody", "everyone", "must", and so forth unless such labels are accurate (e.g. "Everyone in this class scored higher than 85% on last week's exam.", "You must be at least eighteen years old to rent this movie."). Also, it is good practice to avoid being unnecessarily and hyperbolically negative (e.g. "He can't do anything!") when it would be more productive and meaningful to provide more constructive feedback ("He has trouble with this particular task.")

Also, as a final note, I think this thread should probably be moved to another forum, considering that it's not really saying anything specifically relevant to Japanese...

 

[alexriversan]

You know, while I can see where you're coming from here, it's kind of ironic that in a post that decries the idea of making overly general or negative statements when there are more specific or positive things to be said, the tone of your own words goes against the very point you're trying to make.

WRONG

RIGHT
Though there are times when generalizations are necessary or a useful rhetorical device, on the whole I would argue that it's best to avoid words like "nobody", "everyone", "must", and so forth unless such labels are accurate (e.g. "Everyone in this class scored higher than 85% on last week's exam.", "You must be at least eighteen years old to rent this movie."). Also, it is good practice to avoid being unnecessarily and hyperbolically negative (e.g. "He can't do anything!") when it would be more productive and meaningful to provide more constructive feedback ("He has trouble with this particular task.")

Also, as a final note, I think this thread should probably be moved to another forum, considering that it's not really saying anything specifically relevant to Japanese...

that's particiulary not true. japanese does not stalk people, neither does it perform ill-fashoined speak all day. it is a different mentality.

"Everyone in this class scored higher than 85% on last week's exam."
our class scored 85% and above.

"You must be at least eighteen years old to rent this movie."
this movie is for adults.

japanese leaves out information which is obvious.
1:1 translation from "americanese" are understood, in the best case.

if you do not see this, i doubt you professionally learn japanese.
if you see it then, "i must be at least eighteen..." is slightly offensive, because it contains the idea i would have to rent something.

humans make assumptions/identities within all words of a sentence. regardless of it's structure.
this happens on a subconscious level.

additionally, jt_, probably you can study some modern psychology: there are interesting discoveries about our social life.

they show americans/europeans are living "wrong". i can explain easily, why people are taking something, why they are unemployed etc.

BUT: this belongs to another thread/forum.

here we are just about gackt, MA-N-GA, horror news from BBC and lingerie.

MA-N-GA does mean cartoon/cartoon style story.
means older, european cartoons are MA-N-GA as well.

 

[bentenmusume]

japanese does not stalk people, neither does it perform ill-fashoined speak all day. it is a different mentality.

Stalk people? I'm not quite following you here. I also don't think that "ill-fashioned speak" is an inherent quality of any language. Take any language, and there will be people (native speakers) who speak it eloquently and those who do not.

Everyone in this class scored higher than 85% on last week's exam."
our class scored 85% and above.

This is an odd turn of phrase -- it makes it sound like the entire class took the test as one group/unit.

"You must be at least eighteen years old to rent this movie."
this movie is for adults.

This statement is ambiguous. A movie can be "for" adults (i.e. made with adults as the intended target audience) without it containing 'mature' subject matter (violence, sex) that would result in children being prohibited from renting it.

japanese leaves out information which is obvious.
1:1 translation from "americanese" are understood, in the best case.

Tell me something I don't know.

if you do not see this, i doubt you professionally learn japanese.

What have I said that makes you think I don't see this? And what exactly does it mean to "professionally learn" something? Anyway, I don't see the need to defend myself from this sort of statement -- feel free to look through my other posts if you want to concern yourself with my level of Japanese. You seem to have a pretty high opinion of your own knowledge, but as far as I can tell you've yet to make a single post in or about the Japanese language in these forums.

The reason I said that this thread doesn't belong in the "Learning Japanese" forum is because it's not saying anything about how one should speak Japanese, it's talking about what words/expressions one should and shouldn't use in English. If you wanted to say something like, "In Japanese, one should avoid the unnecessary use of pronouns when they are implied from context", I would have absolutely no problem with this post being where it is. As it is, you're just making general statements about speaking patterns and then saying something like "you should keep this in mind when you speak Japanese too." To say that makes this thread on-topic is a bit of a stretch.

I think this post belongs in the Learning English forum if it belongs anywhere.

if you see it then, "i must be at least eighteen..." is slightly offensive, because it contains the idea i would have to rent something.

Does it? Try this one: "You must be at least four feet tall to ride this roller coaster."

So you're telling me that this implies that I _have_ to ride something? It sure doesn't have that nuance to me.

humans make assumptions/identities within all words of a sentence. regardless of it's structure.
this happens on a subconscious level.

Okay... your point being?

additionally, jt_, probably you can study some modern psychology: there are interesting discoveries about our social life.

I'm sure there are.

they show americans/europeans are living "wrong". i can explain easily, why people are taking something, why they are unemployed etc.

And this is related somehow to overuse of words like "must", "everyone", "cannot", and the like? Or is it just a complete non-sequitur?

BUT: this belongs to another thread/forum.

So there's one thing that we can agree on.

(edited for clarity)

 

[alexriversan]

thank you for writing a quality reply

Quote: Originally Posted by alexriversan: "You must be at least eighteen years old to rent this movie."
this movie is for adults.

reply by jt_
This statement is ambiguous. A movie can be "for" adults (i.e. made with adults as the intended target audience) without it containing 'mature' subject matter (violence, sex) that would result in children being prohibited from renting it.

alexriversan:
an example would be "INNOCENCE" (cinema movie): it is mature content, which can be understood bu underage persons, under circumstances.
hence, it is rated PG-16. or it was PG-15 probably.
"CREEP" was rated 18 above: as it contains mature subjects of torture, imprisonment, dying and a large amount of rats.

Quote:
Originally Posted by alexriversan
if you do not see this, i doubt you professionally learn japanese.

reply by jt_
What have I said that makes you think I don't see this? And what exactly does it mean to "professionally learn" something, anyway? Anyway, I don't see the need to defend myself from this sort of statement -- feel free to look through my other posts if you want to concern yourself with my level of Japanese. You seem to be pretty confident in your own knowledge, but as far as I can tell you've yet to make a single post in or about the Japanese language in these forums.

The reason I said that this thread doesn't belong in the "Learning Japanese" forum is because it's not saying anything about how one should speak Japanese, it's talking about what words/expressions one should and shouldn't use in English. If you wanted to say something like, "In Japanese, one should avoid the unnecessary use of pronouns when they are implied from context", I would have absolutely no problem with this post being where it is. As it is, you're just making general statements about speaking patterns and then saying something like "you should keep this in mind when you speak Japanese too." To say that makes this thread on-topic is a bit of a stretch.

I think this post belongs in the Learning English forum if it belongs anywhere.

alexriversan:
i am sorry for this. my message is indeed one should first master english, then adapt the english to japanese patterns, then learn japanese. indeed, it would be more appreciate for the "Learning English" forum.

Quote: Originally Posted by alexriversan
if you see it then, "i must be at least eighteen..." is slightly offensive, because it contains the idea i would have to rent something.

reply by jt_
Does it? Try this one: "You must be at least five feet tall (in order) to ride this roller coaster."

So you're telling me that this implies that I _have_ to ride something? It sure doesn't to me.

alexriversan:
OH YES, BEFORE THAT, I NEVER HEARD OF RIDING.

Quote: Originally Posted by alexriversan
humans make assumptions/identities within all words of a sentence. regardless of it's structure.
this happens on a subconscious level.

Okay... your point being?

Quote: Originally Posted by alexriversan
they show americans/europeans are living "wrong". i can explain easily, why people are taking something, why they are unemployed etc.

reply by jt_
And this is related somehow to overuse of words like "must", "everyone", "cannot", and the like? Or is it just a complete non-sequitur?

alexriversan: no, it is the explanation drug intake is an action of DISCONNECT at will. easy to understand once you get it.

Quote: Originally Posted by alexriversan
BUT: this belongs to another thread/forum.

reply by jt_
So there's one thing that we can agree on.

alexriversan: you have spend at least a few minutes to give answers, which allow reply, and do not justify evrything as nonsense. probably, others can increase the quality of their posts, too. i never have issued i would be perfect. i just try to understand more people, with different viewpoints, which otherwise would be subject of hate. i have given up to hate/to think.

 

[bentenmusume]

I was afraid that you would take my post the wrong way or be insulted by it, but it seems that you were very understanding. Thank you, I appreciate this.

an example would be "INNOCENCE" (cinema movie): it is mature content, which can be understood bu underage persons, under circumstances.
hence, it is rated PG-16. or it was PG-15 probably.
"CREEP" was rated 18 above: as it contains mature subjects of torture, imprisonment, dying and a large amount of rats.

Yes, this is basically what I was getting at. "This movie is for adults" could apply to both of them, while "You must be at least eighteen to rent this movie" is a more specific statement that would only apply to the latter.

i am sorry for this. my message is indeed one should first master english, then adapt the english to japanese patterns, then learn japanese. indeed, it would be more appreciate for the "Learning English" forum.

You don't have to apologize. There's nothing wrong with the thread (it's actually quite an interesting topic to think about), I just found it to be out of place in the Japanese forum.

Hopefully a moderator will catch sight of this and move it.

So you're telling me that this implies that I _have_ to ride something? It sure doesn't to me.

alexriversan:
OH YES, BEFORE THAT, I NEVER HEARD OF RIDING.

I'm still not following you here. To me, "You must be [X] in order to [Y]" does not imply a necessity or even strong exhortation to [Y].

no, it is the explanation drug intake is an action of DISCONNECT at will. easy to understand once you get it.

Hmm... so you're saying that the disconnect with reality that causes people to use drugs is somehow related to the disconnect with reality that would cause people to overgeneralize and use words that don't really describe the situation at hand?

If so, then it's an interesting idea, though it still strikes me as a bit of a reach.

you have spend at least a few minutes to give answers, which allow reply, and do not justify evrything as nonsense. probably, others can increase the quality of their posts, too. i never have issued i would be perfect. i just try to understand more people, with different viewpoints, which otherwise would be subject of hate.

This is by all means a good thing. I try to do the same.

Anyway, thanks for a thoughtful and considerate reply. We may not agree on everything, but I look forward to discussing these things further with you in the future.

 

[PaulTB]

I'm still not following you here. To me, "You must be [X] in order to [Y]" does not imply a necessity or even strong exhortation to [Y].

Dogs must be carried.

... no wait, that's not quite the same.

 

[alexriversan]

Dogs must be carried.

... no wait, that's not quite the same.

GWAO GWAO GWAO GWAO GWAO GWAO GWAO GWAO GWAO GWAO
GWAO GWAO GWAO GWAO GWAO GWAO GWAO GWAO GWAO GWAO
GWAO GWAO GWAO GWAO GWAO GWAO GWAO GWAO GWAO GWAO
GWAO GWAO GWAO GWAO GWAO GWAO GWAO GWAO GWAO GWAO
GWAO GWAO GWAO GWAO GWAO GWAO GWAO GWAO GWAO GWAO
GWAO GWAO GWAO GWAO GWAO GWAO GWAO GWAO GWAO GWAO
GWAO GWAO GWAO GWAO GWAO GWAO 66 times

WAGO WAGO WAGO (from an old-fashioned computer games)

now, at least, you heard of dogs.

what about MEOW? is that the same? or is it a cat? or a rat? or a hat with the cat and the rat? speak this 3 times.

relation to my topic/japanese:
japanese would give out the information: DOGS ARE CARRIED

thank you, paulTB.
if people remind to take their dog-byproducts with them, this reply makes very big sense.