Something I needed to get off my chest..

[bakaKanadajin]

I agree with Tsuyoiko here that somehow, there are ways in which you may express yourself, and there are unorthodox ways of self-expression which are for no apparent reason unacceptable. Smells of arbitrariness.

It is a severe misconception that striving to be individualistic is a display of angst or emo bullshat.

Didn't say trying to be an individual is a display of angst, I said acting like a social outcast and relishing that misplaced sense of rejection is a waste of resources. You've got it backwards anyway, these kids display their emo or gothic angst or whatever you'd define it as, in order to be individualistic. The joke is, they just conform anyway, albeit in a different way.

I see no connection here. It was pretty much the norm among men to keep long hair a few centuries back (in certain cultures),

Yes, as its the norm today to have reasonable length hair. Furthermore, the men of yester-century with the long hair were our greatest minds and achievers, the enlightenment period philosophers, political thinkers, inventors, etc. They weren't growing long hair as a form of rebellion either.

Judging a doctor by his or her hair colour is a plain inflexibility of mind. Blue hair is not indication of one's skill, it has nothing to do with skill, striving for individuality has nothing to do with skill either. All these complaints only show prejudice. I never would have thought that prejudice is a merit, but apparently, when its conformists who are prejudiced it is. INCONSISTENCY.

Careful how you define prejudice. I never said I wouldn't put the guy out if he was on fire or that I hated him, I said that I would think twice about using him as a doctor because as far as serious matters (such as health) go I would be weary of trusting adults who continue immature habits. This is more a consumer state of mind than a commentary on how I think of all people. I did mention above that I don't have a real problem with them, I just think they've gotta outgrow it.

Why exactly are you assuming that someone who stands out is a fool? I kinda smell prejudice again.

I alluded to that above already. To be clear, I was referring moreso to the main proponents of this activity (our treasure-troll doctor friend aside) who are the young people that are usually involved in this kind of thing. Again, as I said earlier, in my experience only (and this is all personal opinion of course so take it with a grain of salt would you?) the kids who did this kind of thing often did so at the expense of participation in school. They rejected clubs, activities, friends, social circles, etc., because of perceived inner inadequacies or what have you. Rather than spend time and effort excelling in their weak areas they simply accepted their status and played on their role as the 'rejects', the angsty 'no one gets me' types, and put resources into piercings, hair-do's, in some cases drugs etc. instead.

I also said that was fine too, that it's a part of growing up, and that I thought that they should just aim to outgrow it.

The day may come when some ****s.ucker employer forces me to shorten my hair. Will the trimming or cutting of my hair make me a smarter or more experienced person? Or will it radically change my personality and approach to solving problems? I doubt, and for that very reason, claiming that non-conformists possess less expertise or knowledge just by being non-conformists is just bollocks.

Way to go conformism... pfft.

That day may come. If you refused to cut your hair simply to be non-conformist and gave up a great job opportunity just for your hair, I'd say yes, you lack knowledge and maturity.

 

[ShadowSpirit]

I wouldn't disagree with you there, that as a part of his/her vocation, specifically a comedian or entertainer, some people choose to take on certain qualities, act a certain way, do things that are quite different from the norm. That kind of behaviour though I would have to define differently than someone who puts tremendous resources into hair/fashion just to get the slightest, most superficial reaction out of people on the street in order to feed internal insecurities.

Did you ever considered that perhaps a person doesn't always act like the career they've chosen, but rather choose a career that best fits how they act? Such as the case with most entertainers as I had pointed out in using Teller as an example.

Whereas maybe the blue-haired doctor has a personality that suits him for a certain upbeat lifestyle. Though his commitment is to medicine due to perhaps being surrounded by it, wanting to heal people, having a natural gift or interest in it.

I'm not sure I follow you on why having blue hair is supposed to be a sign of insecurity? Is this how you view all people who try to express themselves? Hiding behind an image? This can happen for some yes, but does this mean that nobody is ever just being themselves? If anything, the doctor is likely demonstrating confidence in who he is. Not denying what he likes or how he chooses to conduct himself socially. Whatever may be the case, it still doesn't reflect the ability of his work.

I'm trying to avoid using myself as an example in any of this, as to not sound biased. Yet when Derfel said. "The day may come when some ****s.ucker employer forces me to shorten my hair. Will the trimming or cutting of my hair make me a smarter or more experienced person? Or will it radically change my personality and approach to solving problems?" It reminded me that what almost seems like a previous life since it was so long ago, that I had to cut my long hair (down to the middle of my back) when I joined the U.S. military. I had difficulty finding work, but for the jobs I did have, I was extremely productive and quite impressionable. I used to get comments on the side such as. "If only you would just cut your hair. You would be perfect." Again, showing that my work ethic could only take a person so far into accepting how I appeared.

In retrospect, I'm still the long-haired hippie that I was. Even with my miltiary buzz cut, uniform that I keep freshly ironed, and the arduous discipline I've had crammed down my throat. I hold my same values, same morals, same outlook to life. Only thing that has changed is that I'm confined to a system that exercises harsh restrictions. I never step outside of those restrictions because I am respectful to my employer, but this doesn't mean I agree with the limits that I'm confined to. Just as Derfel had suspected, as if cutting his hair would change anything about him. It probably wouldn't for the most part. You have to want to change for that to happen.

So I say. "Bravo." To the blue-haired doctor. If his employer doesn't enforce a policy on hair standards and he chose to dye his blue. Good for him. I better trust a person who sticks to what he believes than one who only regurgitates the propaganda he is dealt.

 

[Kirie_Maiden]

When you finally outgrow that you may see it differently.

I am sorry to pull this back, but this comment really annoyed me. Who says this is a phase? I know many Goths much older than me. It's something that superficial people who are following a crowd will outgrow. It's people that say I'll outgrow it that really bug me. As if being a Goth is a childish thing and it's not a valid way to live your life. I personally don't see myself ever thinking I am too old to be a Goth. I want to be an English Teacher at High School, and one of my own English Teachers was a Goth... as was one of my Science teachers. I, for one, am not going to apologize for the style of my casual dress and I don't think I'm going to grow out of it.

Sorry I'm off topic here, but the blue-haired doctor thanks the people who are sticking up for him.
Apparantly he got more complaints from his patients when he turned his hair natural again. Says something about his patients really, doesn't it?

Also, somebody said something about him dying his hair blue being an immature habit. I just want to point out that I have already explained how good at his job he is, and that he saved a persons life by catching an illness the specialists couldn't catch, and I want to know what is personal life has got to do with his job. He has 3 kids and can be quite immature as a way of connecting to them, but with his job he is 100% professional. Of course his decision to dye his hair blue was something that would affect his appearance at work but it would not affect his efficiency or his knowledge of medicine. I, personally, think that it is wrong to judge somebody because of ANY kind of physical trait. I wouldn't judge the blue-haired doctor for it any more than I would judge myself (working as a steward at the Manchester Evening News Arena) for having 9 ear piercings and wearing black eyeliner. It has nothing to do with how well I do my job.

 

[kusojiji]

Who says this is a phase?

I do, and chances are very, very, very good that you will outgrow it eventually.








And when you look back years from now you'll be glad you did.

 

[ShadowSpirit]

I do, and chances are very, very, very good that you will outgrow it eventually.
And when you look back years from now you'll be glad you did.

Chances might be likely that she'll outgrow it, but reasons of maturity isn't the primary or only factor involved as to why she may. People change as they get older, she might find a lifestyle that is more appealing to her or feel a desire to attract a different kind of crowd. She might possibly become bored with being goth. The probabilities are plentiful. If her views change drastically enough, so may her image along with it. Should she opt to change her image, I hope that she doesn't feel like she is betraying who she is or what she represents. I don't want her thinking. "They were right, I was wrong." People shouldn't be ashamed of who they are so long as they haven't been hurting people. A uniformed society is a boring one in my opinion.

Remember the famous Apple Computer commercial "1984?" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1984_(television_commercial) .To me, people like Kirie_Maiden, Derfel, that blue-haired doctor, and even many others I've met on this site, are the woman who hammer throws the mallet into the screen. When you put policies or rules on how a person is supposed to dress, think, or represent themselves; you become that symbolic giant television screen.

 

[kusojiji]

To me, people like Kirie_Maiden, Derfel, that blue-haired doctor, and even many others I've met on this site, are the woman who hammer throws the mallet into the screen. When you put policies or rules on how a person is supposed to dress, think, or represent themselves; you become that symbolic giant television screen.

When you have a 'sub-culture' that is far more conformist than the dominant culture from which members feel rejected, I think it is anything but mallet-throwing. More like hiding under a very uniform blanket with similarly insecure and wounded people.

 

[Haruspex]

It is a misconception that refusing to conform to society is to belong to a subculture. There is a tendency, yes, but its not a rule.

 

[ShadowSpirit]

When you have a 'sub-culture' that is far more conformist than the dominant culture from which members feel rejected, I think it is anything but mallet-throwing.

Who's to say if the members of the said sub-cultures are in it for the reasons you have defined? I want to address your attitude on sub-cultures, but I'm uncertain if we're still discussing goths in particular, sub-cultures as a whole, or only specific sub-cultures that you think fit into your negative descriptions? Yet, since we've been focusing on kirie-maiden, here is what wikipedia has to say about goths...

the significance of goth's subcultural rebellion is limited, and it draws on imagery at the heart of Western culture. Unlike the hippie or punk movements, the goth subculture has no pronounced political messages or cries for social activism. The subculture is marked by its emphasis on individualism, tolerance for diversity, a strong emphasis on creativity, tendency toward intellectualism, a dislike of social conservatism, and a mild tendency towards cynicism, but even these ideas are not universal to all goths. Goth ideology is based far more on aesthetics than ethics or politics.

It seems like standard liberal-minded unity to me. Nothing about insecurities in such. You know what's a great thing about goths in my opinion? Is that I've managed to hang out with goths, have involving conversations with them, and share in the music, but I wasn't dressed anything like them. Goths don't typically judge a person by appearance, but rather by the philosophy that person brings to the table. This makes them an easier group to be around and express one's self comfortably. Enough of my goth praising though. I'm more interested in something else you've said...

More like hiding under a very uniform blanket with similarly insecure and wounded people.

I respect you kusojiji, I really do. I think you have good intentions for the things you bring to the table and that you generally don't tolerate generalizations. Yet I can't help but feel you are a victim of a misguided perspective on this particular point. How can you possibly think that the "dominant" culture isn't hiding insecurities? More than any sub-culture that exists, hidden in plain sight as the saying goes, is the dominant culture's mass marketing of insecurities. Everything from brand name prestige clothing, perfumes/colognes, fitness, and even upscale clubs. It is a myriad of bullsh*t that people have to conform with to avoid scrutiny from the dominant culture. Better have that latest suit from Armani. Did you remember to tuck a pocket square hankey in the breast-pocket? Be sure to shine your loafers today, you wouldn't want someone to think you undistinguished if they can't see their reflection in your shoes. I hope you have enough cash to pay for that expensive bottle of cologne, you wouldn't want someone to ask you what scent you're wearing and have to admit it was from the cheaper or outdated line-up.

It doesn't always have to be about expense either. It is about ensuring that everything is in place so that you don't stand out in a negative way. It becomes a competitive image and also about keeping up with the latest business news. This is a group that allegedly dominates the better image of society and are the template for how people would look, dress, and act ideally. Though they can be the epitome of insecurity.

 

[kusojiji]

here is what wikipedia has to say about goths...

Ok, we have to start by agreeing that 'wikipedia' is not a credible source of anything.

You know what's a great thing about goths in my opinion? Is that I've managed to hang out with goths, have involving conversations with them, and share in the music, but I wasn't dressed anything like them. Goths don't typically judge a person by appearance, but rather by the philosophy that person brings to the table. This makes them an easier group to be around and express one's self comfortably.

That's a generalism right there. You could not possibly have met every individual who identifies as 'goth.' I am talking about behaviors. You could have several good or bad experiences with people from any group.

I respect you kusojiji, I really do.

Thanks a lot. I appreciate that.

How can you possibly think that the "dominant" culture isn't hiding insecurities?

When did I say that?

Everything from brand name prestige clothing, perfumes/colognes, fitness, and even upscale clubs. It is a myriad of bullsh*t that people have to conform with to avoid scrutiny from the dominant culture. Better have that latest suit from Armani. Did you remember to tuck a pocket square hankey in the breast-pocket? Be sure to shine your loafers today, you wouldn't want someone to think you undistinguished if they can't see their reflection in your shoes. I hope you have enough cash to pay for that expensive bottle of cologne, you wouldn't want someone to ask you what scent you're wearing and have to admit it was from the cheaper or outdated line-up. It doesn't always have to be about expense either. It is about ensuring that everything is in place so that you don't stand out in a negative way. It becomes a competitive image and also about keeping up with the latest business news. This is a group that allegedly dominates the better image of society and are the template for how people would look, dress, and act ideally. Though they can be the epitome of insecurity.

Where the heck do you live?

 

[ShadowSpirit]

Ok, we have to start by agreeing that 'wikipedia' is not a credible source of anything.

I was afraid you would call me out on this one. I didn't have the time to invest into researching creditable anthropological sites. I decided to check out what wikipedia had to say about it (since it does cite its sources) and saw that description as being what I interpreted goths to be as. If not accurate in fact (which is still up in the air until I can provide a better source,) it at least reflects that my opinion of goths isn't an isolated case.

That's a generalism right there. You could not possibly have met every individual who identifies as 'goth.' I am talking about behaviors. You could have several good or bad experiences with people from any group.

Yes, I am generalizing. So have you though by saying members of these groups are insecure. I wanted to point out an example of goths I've met who break common stereotypes. I should had been more specific about my claims. My description falls mostly to goths I've met in the northern Californian or O'ahu region of the United States. Either way, I'll submit to you on this point and discard any legitimacy of my generalization from the discussion.

Thanks a lot. I appreciate that.

No problem. You conduct yourself well. You've earned the recognition.

When did I say that?

This might had been an error on my part. I'm reading too much into your separation of sub-culture from dominant culture. I should give you a chance to elaborate on this a bit, help me to understand your point before I weigh too heavily on it.

My question on this is. What do you consider to be the dominant culture? How does this alleged dominant culture dress, act, or live out their lives differently from a sub-culture?

Where the heck do you live?

I travel all over. I call California my home and is the basis of many of my opinions. I am a liberal thinker, but my political views are more in the middle.

 

[Remixer]

How can you possibly think that the "dominant" culture isn't hiding insecurities? More than any sub-culture that exists, hidden in plain sight as the saying goes, is the dominant culture's mass marketing of insecurities. Everything from brand name prestige clothing, perfumes/colognes, fitness, and even upscale clubs. It is a myriad of bullsh*t that people have to conform with to avoid scrutiny from the dominant culture. Better have that latest suit from Armani. Did you remember to tuck a pocket square hankey in the breast-pocket? Be sure to shine your loafers today, you wouldn't want someone to think you undistinguished if they can't see their reflection in your shoes. I hope you have enough cash to pay for that expensive bottle of cologne, you wouldn't want someone to ask you what scent you're wearing and have to admit it was from the cheaper or outdated line-up-

Where the heck do you live?

Where the heck do YOU live?

I am probably one of the most traveling members of Jref, and I can only confirm what ShadowSpirit said.

It is extremely prevalent, not only in the business world but also in general society, emphasized especially in Western Society.



Remixer

 

[bakaKanadajin]

How can you possibly think that the "dominant" culture isn't hiding insecurities? More than any sub-culture that exists, hidden in plain sight as the saying goes, is the dominant culture's mass marketing of insecurities. Everything from brand name prestige clothing, perfumes/colognes, fitness, and even upscale clubs. It is a myriad of bullsh*t that people have to conform with to avoid scrutiny from the dominant culture. Better have that latest suit from Armani. Did you remember to tuck a pocket square hankey in the breast-pocket? Be sure to shine your loafers today, you wouldn't want someone to think you undistinguished if they can't see their reflection in your shoes. I hope you have enough cash to pay for that expensive bottle of cologne, you wouldn't want someone to ask you what scent you're wearing and have to admit it was from the cheaper or outdated line-up.

I don't think that's an accurate portrayal of the 'dominant culture' as it pertains to this conversation. As far as people 'on the other side' of the argument go, from my perspective, when I snicker at the goths and emo's I'm not doing it because they lack material wealth, because they don't wear or can't afford Armani, or because they don't 'conform'. In fact I find both sides of that coin amusing, both sides are caught up in an attempt to become something to someone somewhere along the way.

I will re-state one of my original points: if there was no one else on the planet, would you still do the things you do, act the way you act, dress the way you dress? Are you as a person clearly defined, separate from others? Or do you rely on the actions/reactions of others, whether that's mainstream society or those within your little play-group, for affirmation? I think a scant few could really, truly and honestly say that they'd go full-goth, blue-hair, that they'd do any of it if no one was looking.

 

[isuzu_bathory]

I think that some people are still thinking in a very idiot way...I can't say much about it, but I think its very idiot to judge someone by hair's colour, way of dressing, anything...it's idiot...

 

[ShadowSpirit]

I don't think that's an accurate portrayal of the 'dominant culture' as it pertains to this conversation. As far as people 'on the other side' of the argument go, from my perspective, when I snicker at the goths and emo's I'm not doing it because they lack material wealth, because they don't wear or can't afford Armani, or because they don't 'conform'. In fact I find both sides of that coin amusing, both sides are caught up in an attempt to become something to someone somewhere along the way.

I got off on a tangent about the "material wealth" issue. I made a brief note at the end that it isn't just about wealth, so much as it is about fitting in. To point out that even those whom are considered well dressed and into the viewpoint of the dominant culture, still have to keep up on everything to ensure that they don't stand out in a bad way. That even these people demonstrate the highest indications of insecurities. Basically, it isn't restricted to just sub-cultures. I'll give a more urban example to help clarify what I'm saying. Did you ever buy a brand of shoes cause your friends were wearing them? Is your polo shirt from Banana Republic/Gap/Pac Sun/etc instead of from a much cheaper Sears brand name? Would you rather not be caught dead at an outlet store? Many people in the dominant culture fall into these examples, and they can easily be labeled as insecure. Fitting in, being popular, being fashionable, all plays into a group mindset that these sub-cultures are being accused of being in. I don't think it is fair to them. Besides, how hard is it just to mind your own damn business? I think most emo clothes are ugly as hell. Yet it doesn't offend me or bother me that they wear it. I'm not going to give them hell for it and if I was an employer, I'd still hire someone who dresses that way. I just personally find the clothes ugly, the same as I think pink shirts on men are ugly, or ties with drawings on them are ugly, etc.. What I like for fashion is my personal choice. I give others the same respect to express themselves.

I will re-state one of my original points: if there was no one else on the planet, would you still do the things you do, act the way you act, dress the way you dress? Are you as a person clearly defined, separate from others? Or do you rely on the actions/reactions of others, whether that's mainstream society or those within your little play-group, for affirmation? I think a scant few could really, truly and honestly say that they'd go full-goth, blue-hair, that they'd do any of it if no one was looking.

Your question has already been addressed. On a few occasions I have made clear that people usually dress or act the way they do to attract like-minded people. Though if you used your hypothetical, then this topic wouldn't be relevant anyways. Cause it wouldn't matter if your hair is trimmed, long, blue, or even on fire. Cause nobody would be around to admire, scold, or even help extinguish it in the case of my silly ablaze example. If anything, your example only helps to reinforce my view on this topic. By stating that it shouldn't matter what a person looks like, cause why should we have to impress anybody anyhow? Thanks for helping me prove my point.

 

[Remixer]

I concur with Derfel's position.

Only because one way of life has been commonly accepted and integrated into general society, it does not make it any less foolish than any other sub-society, e.g. Goth, Emo, Punk, etc etc.

However, a clean and tidy appearance should be prevalent no matter which society one belongs to.

True, I buy good and expensive perfumes, clothing, apartments and eat at expensive restaurants many times, but there is no reason why I shouldn't and instead choose to shop at CostCo with the financial situation I am in.

It is my narrow-mindedness on quality that has gotten me where I am and appears to be prevalent in other areas of my life as well.

Though, I never mind eating at a cheap restaurant, as long as the food tastes good.




Remixer

 

[bakaKanadajin]

Did you ever buy a brand of shoes cause your friends were wearing them? Is your polo shirt from Banana Republic/Gap/Pac Sun/etc instead of from a much cheaper Sears brand name? Would you rather not be caught dead at an outlet store? Many people in the dominant culture fall into these examples, and they can easily be labeled as insecure. Fitting in, being popular, being fashionable, all plays into a group mindset that these sub-cultures are being accused of being in. I don't think it is fair to them. Besides, how hard is it just to mind your own damn business?

Personally speaking, I've never really bought anything just because I sought acceptance/approval from someone. I can only imagine that's what you mean by 'wouldn't be caught dead in'. The farthest I've gone is to see someone else with something and say 'hey that's cool I want my own', but it was for me, not because I thought others would think it was cool.

As for others, sure you can label anyone as being insecure based on their idiosyncratic behaviour but you can't possibly expect me to agree with you on the fact that colouring your hair and withdrawing from social circles at school is on par with not wanting to shop at Sears. One is clearly a lighter and less life-altering state of being, one is clearly just following the herd in a passive 'whatever fits' sense, buying the brand name because it's probably better quality and won't fall apart vs. attempting to forge a pseudo identity due to a lack of self confidence, vs. making a conscious effort to 'be someone' while amusingly enough following a herd mentality. And as for minding my own business that's kind of a moot point, I'm not the one who brought this topic up first off and secondly it's a discussion so we're discussing it.

Your question has already been addressed. On a few occasions I have made clear that people usually dress or act the way they do to attract like-minded people.

Right, that's what I'm saying. They lack identity so they choose one and from therein their fashion, their choices in life, their attitude, is all for the cause of this new identity, this in-group.

Though if you used your hypothetical, then this topic wouldn't be relevant anyways. Cause it wouldn't matter if your hair is trimmed, long, blue, or even on fire. Cause nobody would be around to admire, scold, or even help extinguish it in the case of my silly ablaze example.

That's my point, a lot of people who say 'I do it for me, it doesn't matter who else is around' are full of BS because they wouldn't do it if they were alone. Just proves that they're doing something strictly for the benefit of others.

This is turning into a circular argument somehow, but I don't think anyone can really disagree with the fact that whatever these people do, they do it for the reaction they get out of others whether that's their own group or the public. It's all a show, anyone who says otherwise is either lying or completely unaware of the fact that they're doing what they're doing for others. The bottom line is if you can say that you'd be pretty much the exact same person you are now, if it was just you and no one else, then you're being your true self. If you need a crap load of extraneous accessorizing and fashion before you're able to leave the house, in order to socially interact, in order to make friends, then you're not, in my books, 'on the level'.

 

[Kirie_Maiden]

I almost wish I had never mentioned my being a Goth, because I have sparked something here.

I would like to say that being a Goth (and I know you said people who say this are full of BS but I don't care) is nothing to do with the people around me. I know NO gothic people, and that isn't to say I do it to be different.

The true reason why I am a Goth is that, before I became one, I had no confidence whatsoever in myself. I hated how I looked and how I felt about how I looked, and being introduced to gothic clothing was like a whole new step in my life. I dyed my hair (not for people around me, but because I, personally, HATED my ginger hair) and I started dressing in a Gothic way and I have gained a lot of confidence. ON the subject of dying my hair, I will say that my boyfriend broke up with me not long after I had dyed my hair black, because he preferred me when I was ginger. So you can't say I did it to please him. All of my other friends have said I should go back to being Ginger and I refuse, not because of what others think about how I look, but because of how I think about how I look.

I don't like to think of myself as a superficial person, and I know looks don't matter, but everybody needs self-confidence. Even just a little.

If you think that my reason is an immature reason, I won't refute your claims, but the fact is I am not going to "outgrow" the very thing that gives me any bit of confidence. If I hadn't become a goth, I wouldn't have met the people I have met, lived the way I live and I would not have the boyfriend I have today, who I love very much, who is not a goth in the slightest and who I do NOT dress to please. I dress to please myself.

I will say that, yes, I do like it when people complement my clothing (and I have been complimented by the older generation on my most gothic of days) but I swear that I dress this way when I am in the house on my own. I DO dress like this when nobody is around and, unfortunately, I know I have no way of proving that but you have my word, and that's all you'll get from somebody over the internet.

If dressing the 'normal' (that is... socially acceptable way) gave me confidence, I would do that too. It has nothing to do with anybody around me.

For me, growing out of being a Goth would be like me growing out of Dancing, or growing out of wanting to be an English Teacher, or even growing out of an interest in Japanese Culture. Would you say I joined this forum to please people around me... especially considering I know absolutely nobody on this forum on a personal level? I hope you wouldn't, because not every choice you make in life is based on people around you, and if it is, I feel sorry for you. Take a good look at yourself and think about what YOU want... not about what people around you want from you.

Thank you.

 

[Remixer]

To be completely honest, if you dress Gothic because you have zero confidence in yourself, it is immature and also indicates a deep-rooted problem within yourself.

Besides, if it is a confidence-related matter for you, why would you need to wear goth clothes when you are at home by yourself?

Also, I don't quite understand how it gave you any confidence other than the kind needed to feel comfortable with yourself in front of others.

If you could explain that, as well as the notion that you dress like a Goth when home alone, to me, I would be very grateful.

Cheers




Remixer

 

[bakaKanadajin]

I almost wish I had never mentioned my being a Goth, because I have sparked something here.

I would like to say that being a Goth (and I know you said people who say this are full of BS but I don't care) is nothing to do with the people around me. I know NO gothic people, and that isn't to say I do it to be different.

The true reason why I am a Goth is that, before I became one, I had no confidence whatsoever in myself. I hated how I looked and how I felt about how I looked, and being introduced to gothic clothing was like a whole new step in my life. I dyed my hair (not for people around me, but because I, personally, HATED my ginger hair) and I started dressing in a Gothic way and I have gained a lot of confidence. ON the subject of dying my hair, I will say that my boyfriend broke up with me not long after I had dyed my hair black, because he preferred me when I was ginger. So you can't say I did it to please him. All of my other friends have said I should go back to being Ginger and I refuse, not because of what others think about how I look, but because of how I think about how I look.

I don't like to think of myself as a superficial person, and I know looks don't matter, but everybody needs self-confidence. Even just a little.

If you think that my reason is an immature reason, I won't refute your claims, but the fact is I am not going to "outgrow" the very thing that gives me any bit of confidence. If I hadn't become a goth, I wouldn't have met the people I have met, lived the way I live and I would not have the boyfriend I have today, who I love very much, who is not a goth in the slightest and who I do NOT dress to please. I dress to please myself.

I will say that, yes, I do like it when people complement my clothing (and I have been complimented by the older generation on my most gothic of days) but I swear that I dress this way when I am in the house on my own. I DO dress like this when nobody is around and, unfortunately, I know I have no way of proving that but you have my word, and that's all you'll get from somebody over the internet.

If dressing the 'normal' (that is... socially acceptable way) gave me confidence, I would do that too. It has nothing to do with anybody around me.

For me, growing out of being a Goth would be like me growing out of Dancing, or growing out of wanting to be an English Teacher, or even growing out of an interest in Japanese Culture. Would you say I joined this forum to please people around me... especially considering I know absolutely nobody on this forum on a personal level? I hope you wouldn't, because not every choice you make in life is based on people around you, and if it is, I feel sorry for you. Take a good look at yourself and think about what YOU want... not about what people around you want from you.

Thank you.

I can see your point of view, that is, changing your image gives you confidence. I would think a lot of people who engage in extreme fashion obviously find tangible benefit in it otherwise they wouldn't do it. I'm no psychologist but I'd also imagine that taking crap from people because of how you dress is a lot easier than hearing criticisms aimed directly at you.

At some point (hopefully) you will accept yourself as-is and the need to be a goth will subside. By growing out of it I don't mean finding the activity foolish and discarding it so much as I mean that there will come a day when you don't need it to feel confident anymore, you will accept yourself as-is, you will like your natural self more than your gothic self.

The old catterpillar butterfly allegory comes to mind.

If being goth was truly a real, soulfully-rooted way of being we'd see more gothic seniors wouldn't we?

 

[Tsuyoiko]

Careful how you define prejudice. I never said I wouldn't put the guy out if he was on fire or that I hated him, I said that I would think twice about using him as a doctor because as far as serious matters (such as health) go I would be weary of trusting adults who continue immature habits.

I think that's still a form of prejudice. You're making a judgment about a person based on what you infer of his character based solely on his appearance.

Rather than spend time and effort excelling in their weak areas they simply accepted their status and played on their role as the 'rejects', the angsty 'no one gets me' types, and put resources into piercings, hair-do's, in some cases drugs etc. instead.

I don't think acceptance of one's weaknesses is any less healthy as a way of dealing with oneself than trying to overcome them. As an example, until my early 20s I thought my anxiety and depression was something I could be cured of, and any efforts to alleviate my symptoms were in this direction. A counsellor suggested that I should accept that I would never be cured, and instead try to find ways to live with myself. I think that's what these angsty teenagers are doing; good for them if it makes them feel better about themselves.

I'm not sure I follow you on why having blue hair is supposed to be a sign of insecurity? Is this how you view all people who try to express themselves? Hiding behind an image? This can happen for some yes, but does this mean that nobody is ever just being themselves? If anything, the doctor is likely demonstrating confidence in who he is.

I agree. Perhaps he's also making a social or political statement, like, "I'm a good doctor and I defy you to judge me on the colour of my hair". I don't think bakaKanadajin (or anyone else) has answered my related question yet: why is blue hair unacceptable, but driving a Mercedes is OK? Surely driving a Mercedes is a way of standing out from the crowd and maybe making a sort of statement too, like, "I have a large disposable income that I choose to spend on unnecessary possessions that increase my carbon footprint".

I dress scruffily because I feel comfortable like that, and admittedly I'm trying to make a point too. By dressing like this, I'm saying firstly that the way I dress has no bearing whatsoever on my ability to do a good job, and secondly that who I am is something over and above the job that I do.

It is about ensuring that everything is in place so that you don't stand out in a negative way.

That's exactly right, and the things that make a person stand out can vary between times and cultures, which just goes to show that what Derfel says is right: it's arbitrary.

I will re-state one of my original points: if there was no one else on the planet, would you still do the things you do, act the way you act, dress the way you dress?

I can safely say that if I was the only person on the planet I would still wear jeans and T-shirts. But as ShadowSpirit says, this argument doesn't really work. The conformist who wear shirts and ties for work would most likely discard his suit if he was the only guy on Earth

Personally speaking, I've never really bought anything just because I sought acceptance/approval from someone. ...
As for others, sure you can label anyone as being insecure based on their idiosyncratic behaviour but you can't possibly expect me to agree with you on the fact that colouring your hair and withdrawing from social circles at school is on par with not wanting to shop at Sears. One is clearly a lighter and less life-altering state of being, one is clearly just following the herd in a passive 'whatever fits' sense, buying the brand name because it's probably better quality and won't fall apart vs. attempting to forge a pseudo identity due to a lack of self confidence, vs. making a conscious effort to 'be someone' while amusingly enough following a herd mentality.

bakaKanadajin, I think this attitude is extremely prejudiced. You make a great deal of assumptions about a person's feelings, thoughts, motives and character, based it seems, solely on the fact that they reject the mainstream. Perhaps your own personal style fits within the mainstream, so you can express yourself without having to stand out in a crowd; it would be interesting if you could tell us a bit more about that as I don't want to make any assumptions.

They lack identity so they choose one and from therein their fashion, their choices in life, their attitude, is all for the cause of this new identity, this in-group.

That's true of anyone really. You could just as easily say that of the mainstream.

That's my point, a lot of people who say 'I do it for me, it doesn't matter who else is around' are full of BS because they wouldn't do it if they were alone. Just proves that they're doing something strictly for the benefit of others.

Let me offer some suggestions for positive traits you might see in someone who dresses outside the mainstream. From personal experience as a teenage hippy, I can assure you that it takes some courage, determination and strength of character to adopt a style that makes people look at you strangely, and sometimes even point and laugh. I dressed like that because I felt pretty in long flowing skirts and pigtails, and as a shy kid I was determined to wear the clothes I liked regardless of the reaction of other people. Note, I dressed like that despite others' reactions, not because of them. I think in part it was that determination that helped me overcome my shyness.

 

[isuzu_bathory]

To be completely honest, if you dress Gothic because you have zero confidence in yourself, it is immature and also indicates a deep-rooted problem within yourself.

Besides, if it is a confidence-related matter for you, why would you need to wear goth clothes when you are at home by yourself?

Also, I don't quite understand how it gave you any confidence other than the kind needed to feel comfortable with yourself in front of others.

If you could explain that, as well as the notion that you dress like a Goth when home alone, to me, I would be very grateful.

Cheers




Remixer

If someone thinks or is a gothic, than why shouldnt she/he wear "gothic" clothes at home? I dont see any problem into it, I am not a gothic, though many people think of me as one, and i do wear my black stuff at home, I dont see any problem of it, I am not doing it because of anyone else, I am doing it because I feel well like that, if you dont understand my point, then think this way "if someone would make you wear/do something that you didnt wanted, and doesnt suit you, how would you feel?" its the same for those guys, to wear black, or creepie stuff isnt that of a bad thing, it has nothing to do with the devil (even if some people who call themselfs "goth" think they are from the devil), the "gothic clothes" (as you like to name it) are just as normal as the other ones...

And some people might feel a bit better (or at least some think they do), because, especially in teenagers, most of the time they do it to reveal themselfs in some way, like if they had been "enjailed" for all a life, and now its time to be free...(i dont know if you get my point).

Even me when I started to wear only black clothes from a sudden was a big shock for my family, but I had finally deceided that I was "big enough" to know what I would like to wear or not...(before I would dress as my sister would want, just because in their thought that was the pretty thing), and believe me that made me feel much better, and even today I feel good when people judge me because of my style and I can say proudly "at least its my choice, and my personality"...
That kind of stuff might be a bit hard to explain, and many people will have different point of view... But this thing of feeling well or not so well by dressing like a goth or whatever all time, goes a lot with your psychologic, your mind...

 

[bakaKanadajin]

I think that's still a form of prejudice. You're making a judgment about a person based on what you infer of his character based solely on his appearance.

Jeez so unless I accept the guy no questions asked, on-the-spot, I'm autmoatically prejudiced? haha then I'm prejudiced, sure, I don't mind being backed into a corner based on semantics or technicalities. As I said, I'm not harbouring any hatred, I'm not worried about whether I'm a nice guy or not or whether I'd be able to treat him as well as I'd treat anyone else. I just reserve the right to A) comment on people who act out childishly into their adult years. I'm under no obligation to acquiesce to that, and B) pertaining to an area where a steady, rational personality is of the utmost importance because my health is hanging in the balance, I also reserve the right to exercise scrutiny and judgement as a consumer in the spirit of self-preservation. If someone at McDonald's had blue hair I doubt I'd notice, and if I did, certainly not care.

I don't think bakaKanadajin (or anyone else) has answered my related question yet: why is blue hair unacceptable, but driving a Mercedes is OK?

Consumer choices are a little hard to decipher though. I mean depending on what model you're talking about you're looking at a really finely tuned, well-engineered, safe, fast toy, something fun and easy to enjoy personally. You don't need on-lookers to enjoy a vehicle necessarily. If you're a loser and just buy one to impress ladies then you're just another social reject but it's impossible to say why someone buys what they buy when you're talking about consumer goods. You could argue they're the same, being a goth and owning a Merc., but at the end of the day they're a little different aren't they? Most stand-outs are hands-down seeking some kind of interaction/reaction from someone, there's no question about that, the Merc. owner may simply enjoy his toys. I would definitely agree that some people who own Mercs are the same as goths, I'm also perfectly aware a small number of goths and freaks and emos etc. do what they do strictly for themselves, but in general it's tough to directly compare those two, apples and oranges. This topics about fashion and personality and psychology, if you want to discuss brands and consumer choices we need a new topic.

I dress scruffily because I feel comfortable like that, and admittedly I'm trying to make a point too. By dressing like this, I'm saying firstly that the way I dress has no bearing whatsoever on my ability to do a good job, and secondly that who I am is something over and above the job that I do.


I can safely say that if I was the only person on the planet I would still wear jeans and T-shirts. But as ShadowSpirit says, this argument doesn't really work. The conformist who wear shirts and ties for work would most likely discard his suit if he was the only guy on Earth

I wear jeans and t-shirts too. I wear them because they're comfortable and durable.

And the argument works, I don't know why people aren't getting it. Obviously if the planet was empty things would be different, it's an extreme example, a wild 'what if', its only purpose is to prove that as far as goths, extreme fashion weirdos, etc. go, most do it for the sake of others, not themselves.

If you go outside without lotion, you get sun burned. If the sun didn't exist, you wouldn't need the lotion. Because you need the lotion, indirectly you've proven the sun exists. Same idea. People say they do it for themselves and it's not to get a rise out of others or seek acceptance, that they dont' care who's looking and yet if there was no one around I highly doubt they'd still dress that way, so obviously what they're saying smacks of BS. And this isn't just goths, I'm sure a lot of people around the world would give up their 'act' if no one was looking.

bakaKanadajin, I think this attitude is extremely prejudiced. You make a great deal of assumptions about a person's feelings, thoughts, motives and character, based it seems, solely on the fact that they reject the mainstream. Perhaps your own personal style fits within the mainstream, so you can express yourself without having to stand out in a crowd; it would be interesting if you could tell us a bit more about that as I don't want to make any assumptions.

I'm not sure what's prejudiced here. All I was saying was that I think you're comparing apples and oranges. A mom at Costco who trusts the trademark Kirkland brand name because it's 'good value' or because everyone else buys it is not so much seeking acceptance from her peers as she's lacking consumer smarts is she? Look at me, I bought the 10kg low-grade Kirkland lemon-scented detergent, that's right, react to me, notice me. I don't think so. I think to further this point we should also define maintream clearly.

As for my own style, not sure what you want to hear. Again, you'd have to define mainstream for me. If I had to guess what you're getting at, I think that perhaps you think I'm extremely conformist, own all the brand names, that I take pride in making myself as basal and immune to ridicule as possible, etc. so that I can sit here and fire off criticisms at goths and weirdos. Actually I take a bit of ridicule myself because I'm notoriously under dressed, I wear white socks with suits for work, I wear a baseball cap at the same time as a tie, I clip my keys to my belt loop, I really don't care. The hat keeps the sun out of my eyes, the keys are easy to keep track of there and the white socks were clean. In a small way I'm like them.

The only soap box I have is being able to say I truly don't give a crap about fashion or group-acceptance so I'm permitted to ridicule those who are willing to die for it.

That's true of anyone really. You could just as easily say that of the mainstream.

Again, define mainstream.

 

[Kirie_Maiden]

Once again, I wish I'd never opened my mouth.

I am sorry if you didn't mean it that way, but I now feel criticized and patronised for my choices, and I shouldn't be made to feel like that on an internet forum because of my opinions. I accept that people may just feel like what they are saying is advice, and that telling me I'll find myself and won't be a goth anymore is the god's honest truth, but I don't see it that way. I was told 5 years ago that when I hit college I would grow out if it. 2 years of college went by, I am in my first year of University and I haven't grown out of it yet.

I don't like being told that I have deep-rooted problem within me by somebody that doesn't know me either. I dress tastefully. It's people who wear mini-skirts and show thongs to the world that have the deep-rooted problems. I am happy with who I am now and I wasn't before, so I can't see the problem.

I don't mean to have an angry rant here, but I feel like this is needed.

As for seeing myself, "as is" and the need to be a goth subsiding, how do you know that being a goth isn't who I am? I honestly feel more like myself being a goth than I ever have before.

And now I request we change the subject back to whether dying your hair should be acceptable in the workplace, because we have gotten off topic just from one little comment I made and I did not intend that to happen.

I can already predict I'm going to be called immature for taking offence, so please just don't bother and change the subject back.

 

[ShadowSpirit]

And as for minding my own business that's kind of a moot point, I'm not the one who brought this topic up first off and secondly it's a discussion so we're discussing it.

You've misunderstood. I wasn't implying that you should mind your own business from the topic, nor was I even targeting you specifically in that statement. I was asking generally, why can't people mind their own business as to those they see on the streets? Why even bother caring if a person is dressed like emo, punk, whatever? It doesn't hurt you any. My comment on this had nothing to do with you involving yourself in this thread or topic. Sorry if you interpreted it as such.

You're right though. This is turning into a circular argument. I can't possibly think of another way to convey my point anyhow. It is ok if you disagree with me, I just wish you at least understood what I was trying to say before coming to your argument against it.

 

[Tsuyoiko]

Jeez so unless I accept the guy no questions asked, on-the-spot, I'm autmoatically prejudiced? haha then I'm prejudiced, sure, I don't mind being backed into a corner based on semantics or technicalities. As I said, I'm not harbouring any hatred, I'm not worried about whether I'm a nice guy or not or whether I'd be able to treat him as well as I'd treat anyone else. I just reserve the right to A) comment on people who act out childishly into their adult years. I'm under no obligation to acquiesce to that, and B) pertaining to an area where a steady, rational personality is of the utmost importance because my health is hanging in the balance, I also reserve the right to exercise scrutiny and judgement as a consumer in the spirit of self-preservation.

Apologies if I've annoyed you. That's certainly not my intention, and my claim that your attitude here is prejudiced isn't a dig at you personally. What I'm challenging is your assumption, which you have again restated above, that certain styles of appearance indicate certain underlying personality traits, e.g., that blue hair is a sign of immaturity.

Consumer choices are a little hard to decipher though.

My belief, and the point I'm trying to make here, is that someone's motives for having blue hair are just as hard to decipher as his consumer choices.

I think to further this point we should also define maintream clearly.

Good point. I guess by mainstream I mean whatever is accepted by the majority. But that's bound to vary from place to place.