Something I needed to get off my chest..

[dreamer]

What does physical appearence have to do with skills?
It's just like these people who assume that I can learn kanjis easily because I look asian...
We have a saying in French: "L'habit ne fait pas le moine" which is equivalent to the english "Never judge a book by its cover"

 

[Remixer]

True, outside appearance does not give any information on a person's skill.

However, maintaining a professional appearance at least builds up a good impression often needed to take the leap and hire that person.

I have met quite a few people in the business world and as a general opinion on all of them, I have to say that the impeccably dressed ones usually ARE more professional, disciplined and better at their work.

Keep in mind that it is purely my personal observation, though.



Remixer

 

[dreamer]

True, outside appearance does not give any information on a person's skill.

However, maintaining a professional appearance at least builds up a good impression often needed to take the leap and hire that person.

I agree on this point

I have met quite a few people in the business world and as a general opinion on all of them, I have to say that the impeccably dressed ones usually ARE more professional, disciplined and better at their work.

Keep in mind that it is purely my personal observation, though.

It depends on which field you are working in. It might "look" true in fields such as consulting, business, and others where you need to interact a lot with outside customers, but there are many fields where it's not the case.

If you ever have the chance to work in a research lab, in IT or in any artistic field, you'll see that people are rarely well dressed unless they have a client meeting.

I admit that it might be uncommon for a doctor, but as far as I know, there's no law that forbids it. If he starts losing patients however, then it's another story...

 

[Malamis]

What does physical appearence have to do with skills?

in the doctor and/or lawyer case:
1. this person has seen fit to devote time and resources to a purely aesthetic device
a. this highlights that they believed or believe that it would contribute to their personal enjoyment at the time or later date.
b. this further highlights certain entertainment or diversion choices they are likely to make ( aka hippy)
2. they have likely maintained it in the face of professional or personal coldness, in the sense that they will have legions of folk like me who regard them very lowly
a. while this could be a good thing, in that they are then forced to work harder to prove they are superiorly skilled, it may also mean they are hazed out in the allocation of professional resources.
b. or indeed informal professional correspondence, which in my field ( net tech) at least is critical to development and effective performance of your job function
3. if 1 & 2 are not the case, then it is entirely possible the man is a dolt, and happens to know someone who knows someone who got them a job in spite of their lack of skill and professional aptitude. As I live in Scotland this is a legitimate and serious concern, especially in the teaching field.

so while you shouldnt necessarily judge a book by its cover, you can judge a car by it's condition, seeing as it's condition directly affects it's function, and its function eventually shows in it's condition.

 

[Remixer]

It depends on which field you are working in. It might "look" true in fields such as consulting, business, and others where you need to interact a lot with outside customers, but there are many fields where it's not the case.
If you ever have the chance to work in a research lab, in IT or in any artistic field, you'll see that people are rarely well dressed unless they have a client meeting.
I admit that it might be uncommon for a doctor, but as far as I know, there's no law that forbids it. If he starts losing patients however, then it's another story...

My field would probably be classified as Salesman.

It is an extremely well paying work and the same goes for my business partners and rivals.

I can speak from first-hand experience that companies with a professional appearance also worked professionally, efficient and throrough.

They are also companies I became partners with.

On the other side, I have also come across quite a few companies (of small-to-medium scale) with an informal appearance. They did not perform half as well.

In particular I very recently severed all ties with a logistics company here in Dubai, which was disgustingly unorganized. Needless to say in this comment, they did not look professional either.



Remixer

 

[Tsuyoiko]

I have met quite a few people in the business world and as a general opinion on all of them, I have to say that the impeccably dressed ones usually ARE more professional, disciplined and better at their work.

I don't think you can be entirely confident that your bias towards smartly dressed associates has not coloured your assessment of how professional and disciplined they are.

I know I have an excellent reputation at work of being efficient, creative and trustworthy. Most of my work is done by e-mail and over the phone, so most people have no idea of my appearance. When they finally do meet me, they already know that I'm good at my job, so it's too late then to judge me by my casual dress. In fact, the way I dress helps me to work better. I'm comfortable in jeans, t-shirts and boots, so I can relax and concentrate on my work. If I had to worry about looking smart all the time that would be distracting, and detrimental to the quality of my work.

 

[Remixer]

Of course, in a job where personal interaction with clients is rare, there is no need.

And as I said, it is a general opinion of mine.

One exception would be one of my German business partners who is absolutely excellent at what he does and I greatly enjoy working with him. Though, his get-up sometimes really is questionable.



Remixer

 

[Haruspex]

Im not really ok with suits and dresses. First thing that comes to my mind is usually "Square! Square! Rofl!" And unfortunately its not Square-Enix that I mean here.
I do not see the whole point behind them. A fancy dress does not reflect the intelligence or the expertise of the person wearing it, so people are just forced into wearing them, because... why exactly? Cause thats what we've been doing for the past few centuries?
I mean, yeah, sure, since that is the case, it reflects one's personality to some extent. Generally however I find the world of fancy dresses to be a shallow one. If someone has the leisure to complain about other folks' clothes, he should perhaps be concentrating more on his own matters.

 

[kusojiji]

You might want to review your own post.

 

[Haruspex]

You might want to review your own post.

There is quite a bit of difference between complaining and and inquiring into somethings purpose.

 

[bakaKanadajin]

And I for one wouldn't trust a doctor with blue hair, for the same reason I wouldn't hire a lawyer with a surgically or otherwise forked tongue.

I think the latter half of your statement is truer, most lawyers tongues are forked naturally. Wannabe lawyers often have their tongues forked surgically because they find themselves faced with ineptitude when it comes time to say one thing and mean another.

As for red hair or outrageous dyed hair etc., well, I'm not old so my opinion isn't worth much as it relates to the first post, but I have to admit I do tend to take people with excessive piercings and dyed hair not too seriously. I think its because I have memories of those kids from school, and most of the time they weren't the kind of kids you'd look up to, they weren't good at school, sports, etc., they were outcasts but above and beyond that they savoured their outcast status and flaunted it and used it as a barrier or scapegoat for a lot of stuff.

I sure as hell wouldn't go to a doctor with blue hair either.

 

[Tsuyoiko]

As for red hair or outrageous dyed hair etc., well, I'm not old so my opinion isn't worth much as it relates to the first post, but I have to admit I do tend to take people with excessive piercings and dyed hair not too seriously. I think its because I have memories of those kids from school, and most of the time they weren't the kind of kids you'd look up to, they weren't good at school, sports, etc., they were outcasts but above and beyond that they savoured their outcast status and flaunted it and used it as a barrier or scapegoat for a lot of stuff.

It's not like that here at all. The kids who dress outrageously tend to be from middle class backgrounds. They are often the kids that performed best at school, and the most likely to go onto university. They usually dress that way for a few years, before they settle down to their respectable dress and responsible, middle-class lives. That's my experience anyway.

As for the blue-haired doctor, I'd be surprised to see it, but I certainly wouldn't judge him on it. I've met enough doctors who were impeccably dressed but turned out to be useless.

 

[Kirie_Maiden]

I wouldn't judge anybody by their appearance, and I don't just mean in the professional world. Being a Goth myself, I'm often judged by my appearance and I am quite sick of it, and I wouldn't want to do it to anybody else.

Even if I didn't know him personally, I would trust the blue haired doctor, simply because I think it shows that he is a fun person, ok to have a laugh with and that's always nice in a doctor. It's the ones that are too serious and don't have a good personality that always annoy me. If you can have a bit of a laugh with him, that's a good thing.

And personality has nothing to do with professional skill. Yeah, he might be a bit of a goof-ball and his blue hair reflects that, but I happen to know he is amazing at his job. He diagnosed a patient with an illness that a hospital AND specialists of the illness in question hadn't even noticed and he probably saved the patients life. 70% mortality rate if not noticed in the first 2 weeks. The blue haired doctor caught that and nobody else did. All the professional looking doctors were ignoring him and he was right.

I also know of one of the suited, professional looking and 'trustworthy' doctors who messed up. When a little girl patient of his complained of really bad stomach pains, he said she was just attention grabbing because her mother was pregnant and being fussed over, so the little girl and the 'baby' of the family was no longer the center of attention. The girls own auntie shouted at her for crying about the pains saying that it wasn't fair to call for so much attention and that she should be happy for her mother. About a week later the girl had died because her bowels were twisted. That scolding was the last thing her auntie ever said to her.

Which doctor will you trust now?

 

[Kinsao]

Personally I think it is stupid for people to get too bothered about someone's appearance in their job as long as they are clean and tidy looking. If you look smart for work, it doesn't matter what colour your hair is. You might just as well disapprove of the style of the hair cut as the colour. For me personally, distrusting a doctor who had blue hair would be as ridiculous as distrusting him because he was wearing blue shoes. It's only a colour! However, if he looked scruffy and unkempt, I would think he didn't care about the impression he was giving to the patients; I would think he was an inconsiderate person!

On the whole, though, it's the choice of the workplace. They should make their dress/appearance code clear to employees before they start work - at the job application stage, so that people don't bother applying if they feel it is not right for them. I can understand why some jobs that involve dealing with members of the public have a stricter dress code - not because the manager themselves dislikes certain looks, but because they have to be super-sensitive to even the most picky of customers that they might possibly turn off by having a 'non-standard looking' employee.

On the plus side, some other organisations are less fussy; they quite like having someone who looks a bit more unusual working for them, as it stops them from looking old and fuddy-duddy. So all is not lost!

 

[kusojiji]

Being a Goth myself, I'm often judged by my appearance and I am quite sick of it

When you finally outgrow that you may see it differently.

 

[Tsuyoiko]

Seems like the English are pretty laid back about appearance, any comments Mycernius?

 

[ShadowSpirit]

However, if he looked scruffy and unkempt, I would think he didn't care about the impression he was giving to the patients; I would think he was an inconsiderate person!

That is likely what people think of him based on the blue hair. That this guy has a lifestyle that he cares about more than his work and isn't willing to conform out of respect to his patients.

I'm just trying to make a point. Though I do agree with your perspective on it. Being that a person's hair color or fashion style shouldn't play a factor in the workplace.

It also makes me wonder why people become progressively less tolerant of fashion as they get older. You would think that a person would become wiser and thus understanding of why such trends exist, especially amongst younger crowds.

 

[bakaKanadajin]

It also makes me wonder why people become progressively less tolerant of fashion as they get older. You would think that a person would become wiser and thus understanding of why such trends exist, especially amongst younger crowds.

As you get older you recognize the stupidity and immaturity in your own actions and part of your growth process is to reject things that are an encumbrance on others. I'm not speaking specifically about hair colour I'm just giving a reason why I seem to be getting cratchety as I get older. That doesn't mean it's all argyle socks and Sunday church for me, but I mean hair colour, is it that important? I'd rather at this point develop myself personally, professionally (and that bears a very weak relationship to money) and generally try to live a real life.

This whole display of personal angst, no one understands me emo BS, putting your ability to stand out physically in a crowd ahead of your achievements and ability to perform in society, etc., I'm done with it, and don't respect it anymore, I out grew it, so while I accept what other young people do as a necessary part of growing up I have no reason to value it or say 'hey that's cool'. It's more like 'hurry up and get that out of your system the sooner the better'. Maybe I wish I'd gotten my act together a little sooner or something.

Any adult who is still emotionally going through that kind of phase of expression, me-ness, it makes me wonder where they're at regardless of whether they're a doctor. It kinda baffles me, like ok you're a great doctor but your hair is blue, what the heck kind of person are you and can I trust you to make good, mature, grounded decisions.

Anyone with enough money can become a doctor, there are plenty of cruddy ones out there who were born into money and sent to medical school. Unfortunately one is forced to judge a book by its cover if the cover is clearly communicating something undesirable.

 

[Remixer]

I agree wholeheartedly with bakaKanadajin.



Remixer

 

[Tsuyoiko]

I'm struggling to see why wanting to stand out in a crowd (e.g., by having blue hair) is a sign of immaturity, and why such a person should be considered as "clearly communicating something undesirable", to quote bakaKanadajin. It's not clear to me at all. Why is blue hair unacceptable, but it's OK for a doctor to drive a Mercedes and play golf? Or is that not OK either?

 

[bakaKanadajin]

I'm struggling to see why wanting to stand out in a crowd (e.g., by having blue hair) is a sign of immaturity, and why such a person should be considered as "clearly communicating something undesirable", to quote bakaKanadajin. It's not clear to me at all. Why is blue hair unacceptable, but it's OK for a doctor to drive a Mercedes and play golf? Or is that not OK either?

As I said, spending a lot of time and effort to make yourself a visual stand-out and outwardly displaying your dissatisfaction with life as many goth/emo/weirdo types do is often done so directly at the expense of personal achievement and meaningful contribution to society. Instead of participating in sports and clubs they're out smoking behind the school. Instead of spending time with their parents they scorn their parents and sometimes run away from perfectly good homes simply because their parents ask the smallest things of them that apparently don't jive. As I also said, that's fine, its a natural part of growing up. Isolating yourself and rejecting society's norms is all a normal part of finding yourself.

Now that I've exited that stage of primordial ego-birth I can say its like teething or growing facial hair, it's just another phase and obsession over it shouldn't be prolonged.

As far as what I've just said, I think we can agree can we not?

With this well-into-adulthood hair colouring and outlandish fashion business that the discussion now seems to be gravitating towards, i.e. this doctor fellow or others like him, it's obviously not the same because its an intentional outward expression of something, not so much a manifestation of hormonal change anymore.

The purpose？I have to ask myself, would they dress the same way if they were the only people on the planet? I doubt it. Do they do it in order to be noticed? For a little shock value? To clearly advertise to others that they are different? Yes it's all done for others, whether that's against others in society or for others to appreciate within their social circle. Either way they're liars if they say it's completely for them and if they were the last person on the planet they'd still wear leather skirts with a zillion metal rings, some Edward Scissorhands looking get up and a crap load of make up.

So this need to visually jilt others, to be like 'hey you, I'm different', I'm not obliged to 'be cool with it', because you're asking me to accommodate immaturity. I'm not about to actively go out and attack these people on the street and lecture them, on the contrary I hardly notice them and on the whole I'm fine with them. I'm just saying, if I encountered a blue-haired doctor, or a doctor in some gothic get-up, I'd have to question his level of maturity. I'm under no obligation to withold questions about his professionalism, afterall it's my damn health.

 

[Haruspex]

As you get older you recognize the stupidity and immaturity in your own actions and part of your growth process is to reject things that are an encumbrance on others. I'm not speaking specifically about hair colour I'm just giving a reason why I seem to be getting cratchety as I get older. That doesn't mean it's all argyle socks and Sunday church for me, but I mean hair colour, is it that important? I'd rather at this point develop myself personally, professionally (and that bears a very weak relationship to money) and generally try to live a real life.

This whole display of personal angst, no one understands me emo BS, putting your ability to stand out physically in a crowd ahead of your achievements and ability to perform in society, etc., I'm done with it, and don't respect it anymore, I out grew it, so while I accept what other young people do as a necessary part of growing up I have no reason to value it or say 'hey that's cool'. It's more like 'hurry up and get that out of your system the sooner the better'. Maybe I wish I'd gotten my act together a little sooner or something.

Any adult who is still emotionally going through that kind of phase of expression, me-ness, it makes me wonder where they're at regardless of whether they're a doctor. It kinda baffles me, like ok you're a great doctor but your hair is blue, what the heck kind of person are you and can I trust you to make good, mature, grounded decisions.

Anyone with enough money can become a doctor, there are plenty of cruddy ones out there who were born into money and sent to medical school. Unfortunately one is forced to judge a book by its cover if the cover is clearly communicating something undesirable.

I agree with Tsuyoiko here that somehow, there are ways in which you may express yourself, and there are unorthodox ways of self-expression which are for no apparent reason unacceptable. Smells of arbitrariness.

It is a severe misconception that striving to be individualistic is a display of angst or emo bullshat. I see no connection here. It was pretty much the norm among men to keep long hair a few centuries back (in certain cultures), today, im labeled an angsty emo for it. Where is the consistency? Again, arbitrariness I see here, but consistency? None.
Could it be that this whole conformism thing is just fashion? Oh yeah! Exactly, people decided that certain forms of clothing, hairstyle, etc. are acceptable and others are facile, hurrah, what a logical decision.
So what? Im not living a real life? I didn't know that! No one told me! Could it be that this is the Matrix?

Judging a doctor by his or her hair colour is a plain inflexibility of mind. Blue hair is not indication of one's skill, it has nothing to do with skill, striving for individuality has nothing to do with skill either. All these complaints only show prejudice. I never would have thought that prejudice is a merit, but apparently, when its conformists who are prejudiced it is. INCONSISTENCY.

Oh wait, if anyone with enough money can become a doctor... does that not mean that conformists with enough money can as well? Or are they good doctors just by virtue of being conformists?

As for the "ahead of your achievements and ability" part. I think it calls for a major "WOOOOOT?"
Why exactly are you assuming that someone who stands out is a fool? I kinda smell prejudice again.

The day may come when some ****s.ucker employer forces me to shorten my hair. Will the trimming or cutting of my hair make me a smarter or more experienced person? Or will it radically change my personality and approach to solving problems? I doubt, and for that very reason, claiming that non-conformists possess less expertise or knowledge just by being non-conformists is just bollocks.

Way to go conformism... pfft.

 

[ShadowSpirit]

Any adult who is still emotionally going through that kind of phase of expression, me-ness, it makes me wonder where they're at regardless of whether they're a doctor. It kinda baffles me, like ok you're a great doctor but your hair is blue, what the heck kind of person are you and can I trust you to make good, mature, grounded decisions.

You make very sound points. I can't disagree that there is a social stigma that clings to the styles that many younger folks represent. It is at times an advertisement of one's philosophy of life, such as if a person were to dress like a: gangster, emo, preppy, etc.. Yet I feel that is a topic in itself that separates from a person simply enjoying expression of fashion.

What kind of person keeps blue hair in their adulthood? I don't know, I don't do it. Yet many intelligent people are entertainers. Teller from the Penn & Teller show is an example. Taught English and Latin in high school, is an artist, and an established writer. Yet still chooses to do magic tricks, play pranks, and assist his well spoken colleague in childishly insulting people. This is how they enjoy living and expressing themselves. Though their work speaks for itself and they are intelligent people. I also knew of a microprocessor engineer who performed brilliant work, but opted to be an amateur comedian.

The idea as you get older is to hopefully understand the mindset of humanity and admire it for its uniqueness. As children, we make impulse decisions and don't usually understand much outside of our local communities. Then you branch out and realize the world is a vast place with people so different, yet so familiar in the same breath. Why shun people for wanting to hold onto what makes them happy? Most Pro wrestlers (e.g. WWE, TNA) enjoy showcasing themselves as superheroes of a sort. Most rappers like to flaunt their wealth. If a doctor dyes his hair blue, maybe it serves as a beacon for attracting like-minded people.

Personally, I don't care if the guy has a tattooed face and spikes coming out of his lip. If he can perform open heart surgery and provides the certification to prove it, he has my business.

 

[Malamis]

I think I may have to represent the Christian cultural perspective here (sadly) and quote a few verses that may have consciously or subconsciously been integrated into certain traditionally held views which no longer have the strength of conviction and purpose behind them, but plenty of substance when backing up prejudice.Too often inconsistently application of the IT IS WRITTEN turns out as a prevailing mindset after the foundation ceases to be relevant to the person, or indeed family.

"For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die."--Romans 8:13.
"And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
That no flesh should glory in his presence. " -- 1 Cor 1 28-29
" Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another. " -- Galatians 5:26

I could go on (for quite a while actually) but I have trouble retaining attention or interest when other folk quote phat Scripture on here, and wont inflict it on you.

 

[bakaKanadajin]

What kind of person keeps blue hair in their adulthood? I don't know, I don't do it. Yet many intelligent people are entertainers. Teller from the Penn & Teller show is an example. Taught English and Latin in high school, is an artist, and an established writer. Yet still chooses to do magic tricks, play pranks, and assist his well spoken colleague in childishly insulting people. This is how they enjoy living and expressing themselves. Though their work speaks for itself and they are intelligent people. I also knew of a microprocessor engineer who performed brilliant work, but opted to be an amateur comedian.

I wouldn't disagree with you there, that as a part of his/her vocation, specifically a comedian or entertainer, some people choose to take on certain qualities, act a certain way, do things that are quite different from the norm. That kind of behaviour though I would have to define differently than someone who puts tremendous resources into hair/fashion just to get the slightest, most superficial reaction out of people on the street in order to feed internal insecurities.