spanking kids; what do you think?

[Haruspex]

Im 17, soon 18, and tbh I don't give a damn about the pain, but honestly, I take humiliation from no one, unless my life is endangered, so yeah, if I were hit now, I'd go and destroy something my parents like to use, say their TV! On the other hand I don't do anything I shouldn't, and other than my studies I don't allow my parents to interfere with my life, I told them that Im not gonna mug, kill or rape anyone, nor am I gonna break into stores or anything like that, so they should be satisfied with all that, I keep my word. But yeah, even now at this age I often ask my parents for their opinions, and they often give advices regarding my studies, but nonetheless, that is where their authority ends.

 

[Han Chan]

Banning spanking children leads to less child abuse - see this article: http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/1/story.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10368213

 

[Goldiegirl]

I don't want any government telling me how to raise my kids. Unless a child is being abused, and it doesn't take too much intelligence to figure out abuse, there is no need to get the government involved. For every anti-spanking website I can post one that is pro. That isn't the point of this thread, it was to hear your PERSONAL opinion, not one of some country, or government.

 

[Sarapva]

I think that showing violence to children, which spanking is, just leads to more violence.

 

[Goldiegirl]

It easy to say how you will or won't raise your kids until you have them. I know we all strive to live to the ideals we have set for ourselves, but I am sure they change as our lives change. It's easy to judge those who have come before us, before we are in that same situation. I for one will hold by judgments, and ideals until I am in the situation myself. My goal is to raise, happy, healthy, respectable children that will go on to be honest, caring, hard working adults. The path that I may take to get them there I am sure will have many forks along the way. I can't chose today what I will do tomorrow.

 

[Han Chan]

I don't want any government telling me how to raise my kids. Unless a child is being abused, and it doesn't take too much intelligence to figure out abuse, there is no need to get the government involved. For every anti-spanking website I can post one that is pro. That isn't the point of this thread, it was to hear your PERSONAL opinion, not one of some country, or government.

OK, then I like to tell you that in those countries where spanking children have been banned, the wast majority of the parents would newer beat their children. As far as I know no parent in Denmark have been punished for giving their child a slap in the behind. However, by passing a law, the society sends a signal to the parents. In Denmark it is by now nearly universally accepted that beating children belong to the past. This also means that most of us regards those countries where you still beat your children as backward - in this regard!

I was newer beaten as a child and I was always well behaved, some of my class mates who were beaten by their parents turned out to become violent bullies. If children grow up beeing beaten, watching violence in TV and playing violent games, it is not surprising if they resort to violence whenever they are angry!

 

[Haruspex]

Ok ok, well, umm... you can't deny violent films and games from boys, thats a no.

 

[Skullcrushergurl]

But at least don't allow such violent things in the home until the boys are old enough to understand that it's just a game and they shouldn't copy it!

 

[Goldiegirl]

There is a difference between BEATING and SPANKING. I think I made the a clear distinction in the beginning of this thread. A spank is on a clothed behind with out enough force to leave a mark. I would think that a person of at least average intelligence can understand the difference.

It's impossible to shield children from violent pictures, video games, tv shows, movies...they are everywhere. You can as parent use parental controls on the your tv, and internet usage, and not buy your kids violent games and movies. However, parents are not with their children every minute of every day, and just because you don't allow your kids to have those things, other parents may not have the same rules. I think it would be impossible to screen every one of your kids friends families and find out what there values are.

My neighbor didn't allow her son to have any type of play gun, like a squirt gun. She didn't want him to grow up thinking guns were ok. Funny, but when I was baby sitting him he used a Big Bird figurine as a gun. He made any toy that he could into a gun.

 

[Haruspex]

But at least don't allow such violent things in the home until the boys are old enough to understand that it's just a game and they shouldn't copy it!

Someone who doesn't understand that from the very beginning should be taken to a doctor. Im not being cynical, if you sit down with the kid, ask him whether the stuff going on there is real, and if he answers with "yes", you gotta look into it.
Obviously my parents wouldn't allow me to watch porn when I was small, but they didn't mind me watching horror films AT ALL.
It was kinda manly treatment. I was scared all the time, and couldn't sleep. They told me that its thanks to the films, and I should bear the consequences and act a bit more manly, take it and get the hell to bed.
At this very moment I have no mental illness other than my screwed personality, I haven't killed anyone, I haven't mugged anyone, I haven't eaten children, nor have I killed my parents. So, even though I was exposed to violent games, I didn't turn into a drooling freak lusting for blood.

Not letting your kid play with toy weapons is moronic in my opinion. That kid wants the bloody weapons, although a small one, but he's a man after all, so hell, people should have a daughter if they want a kid that would do peaceful things. People need to think a bit about the future of their kid, I mean the other brats probably did play with guns, they probably shot each other with toy guns, they weren't raised as pacifists, so imagine the role of a 100% peaceful kid in a pack of boys... well not too bright is it?
So crippling a boys personality cause some holy mighty divine whatever parents desires so is a crime.
Boys become men, and people must face that, let them have their guns, let them beat each other, let them bully each other. The strongest survives.
Oh yeah, btw im going to ignore anyone who preaches peace, brotherhood or anything among those lines, and comes trying to convert me.

 

[Goldiegirl]

My brothers were given toy pop guns when they were around 10. I remember you had to put this red roll of "tape" with these little raised buttons that when hit by the hammer (I don't know gun parts to well) they made that popping noise and gave off that bit of smoke. (that I liked the smell of!) Well my mom said they were never to point then at a person. Of course they were boys and a bit later, perhaps a few weeks, they pointed the guns at my mom and shot her! She was so mad. She didn't spank them, because they were too old and too big, but she did take their guns (actually they were rifles) and broke them over her knee! As adults we kids still get a laugh out of that. My mom though did make her point. I remember the wooden handles breaking from the metal tube part! snap!

 

[Tokis-Phoenix]

It think its stupid when people say that spanking kids leads to child abuse, thats like saying once parents have spanked their kids for the first time the parents are gonna go "hey that felt pretty good, i feel much less stressed now, i'm gonna find a mallet now to hit my childrens fingers with while i deprive them of food!"- only a complete and utter ***** of a parent who doesn't even deserve to have children would do something like that!
Most parents are not morons though, they are intelligent and morally conscious human beings who do not spank their children to relieve stress or to physically injure their children etc, rather instead they spank their children when their children ignore all reason and explanations of why their particular actions are wrong and continue to do very bad behaviour regardless because they are being bratty self centered little kids, who need to understand that if they deliberately break the rules in such particular ways they will get spanked for it etc.

 

[Kinsao]

people should have a daughter if they want a kid that would do peaceful things.

That saying have my mum in hysterical laughter... ;-)

I think generally, it's the same as with animals, a 'spank' that is not hard enough to damage is okay for a child as a deterrant, but after all, it's not the best way neither kids nor animals learn, and it might be necessary some few times, depending on the situation, but it's a better practice to teach by some other method than 'pain'... as we know animals don't do so well in such methods, nor children.

 

[Revenant]

Just read this. My first reaction is that it goes a little over the top. A link between being spanked as a child and deviant sexual behavior? Dunno man. Thoughts?

 

[Kyoto Returnee]

I just read an interesting article on spanking children. It wasn't pro or anti spanking per se, but just reported some facts that these researchers had found with regards to spanking kids. Basically by spanking they meant specifically a swat with an open hand on a clothed rear end, and not hard enough to leave bruises or marks. So what it came down to is this, spanking didn't seem to be detrimental to kids between the ages of 2 and 7, earlier and the child doesn't understand and later it's more humiliation. I came from a relatively spank free house. My mom just followed through on her threats. If she said you have to the count of three to pick up your toys or I will throw them out, trust me, they went into the trash and that was that. I think that method worked very well because she was consistent. I do remember getting a smack on the had for touching stuff in stores. I would like to know how discipline is done in other countries, cultures and states. Are you for or against spanking? I am undecided myself as there are kids who I have run across in stores and on planes that I would have gladly smacked (their parents too!).

Great thread that I missed...

In Japan, I have never heard of parents smacking their kids..

Let me just make this clear.. Smacking and abuse are two totally different things..

Off course this is determined by the parents mental state of mind..

My Mum would often smack my sister, me two, plus I used to cop the wooden spoon, usually on my leg, more often than not, it would break, that would make Mum worse and she would then blame me for hurting her hand!

If we were really bad, Mum would ask Dad to give us the belt (Waist Type)

We would pull down our undies, bend over the bed, and my Dad would go, 1 - 2 - 3, and that's when we would scream, Ahhhhhhh.. He would actually make a cracking noise with the belt and we would pretend.. Good old Dad..

Now, my sis was not a believer in smacking kids, instead she would use the scream techinique and in your room, close the door to which they would cry.

Of course as the boys grew older, the smacking came into play.. Boys are boys, we are a tough lot (most of us), and a smack, c'mon, does it really hurt!

Now, my little soon to be March 17, one year old Kai has arrived, and funnily enough, I often smack him on the back of his nappy in a funny serious sort of way as I figured it's good to train him whilst young..

The biggest problem is, it makes him worse and he nearly bit my nose off yesterday!

When he is older, I can see us wrestling, and if he is really naughty, I will make sure I win, although I'm sure he will overtake me later on, at least I hope so..

My wife is Japanese, not that it matters, but I really cannot see her smacking him, or even any sort of discipline, (My way).. It's a cultural thing..

 

[kai_khk23]

I think spanking children is one of the ways to discipline them. My mom doesn't spank me unless she is really angry, e.g I caused some trouble in school. But if the problem isn't serious, there is no reason why parents should spank them.

 

[Chi65]

I am very opposed to spanking children, but I have some exception to make, having raised a daughter:

In her kindergarden was a boy, who started getting attention via biting every child. He was very strong anyhow, although not a violent character in general. It was just a phase to get extra attention.
Anyhow, my daughter picked up on that and tried the very same. My daughter was not the strongest one at all, in fact, she was the youngest one in this place, but apart from that well respected. She just gave it a try.. .for fun's sake.

When I heard this, I at first could not believe this, but got it confirmed.
I first talked to her, but no effect, it went on as before. So I had to think about another way.
I did not spank her, btw, but got the idea of doing the same to her as she does to the other ones. So I bit her, not very deep, nor in rage, but it hurt her and you could very well see my teeth for a while. She cried a lot right after, but I cooly explained, that this is, what she also did to others and that it hurt them as much. The biting was over immediately. . .

My family was raging, but I explained, that I think, its the easiest way to show her, what she really does, and sticked to this, I still do.
They later forgot all about it, particularly, because it was effective, and we stayed on good terms as before, same with my daughter. She never ever complained about this later on, only smiled.

If I very rarely spanked her now and then, it always happened, when she definitely was violent and over the top herself and only after three warnings, actually. So my own system. This way she knew, what was going to happen, from the times before. If she nevertheless went on, I did it, again not in affect, but consequently and just one short but clear slap. This game did not last very long, by the way. It seemed to be a phase only. She got it, and also about this, she never complained later on. And we often openly speak about the past. She never blamed me for this at all.

As for my own, I was hit very often at home, simply because that was the habit at that time, and parents very much into being the unquestionable authority, one could not talk about anything, but had to do, as they said. I had heavy dictators.

Yet, my father was less so and even felt bad about doing so, but did not know other ways. He was simply used to this method and thus felt to have to do it, for example when the school notes were bad, which happened very rarely for me, actually, because I was amongst the best there, despite being the youngest (I started school with 5, usually you do with 6).

Anyhow, I had a bad time for short, feeling emotionally very stressed in general, basically because of stress within the family. I was never a robotlike child. So, I once got a bad note, due to lack of concentration. My father hit my hands really hard, but since I just had a little operation on one hand, it started bleeding like mad.

I will never forget these little bleeding hands of mine plus the feeling of being very wronged, emotionally and in general, because it was not a bad note due to lazyness or bad behaviour. Since then, I always stepped back, when my father tried to cuddle me, and then he gave up to even try so.

Nevertheless, he later was the main one to help me very much to become an artist, although he was not convinced, that this would pay. We got on really well apart from touching, and he was never violent to me anymore, even started telling me to come to him, if I had any problems. I suppose, he also suffered very much under what he had done once.
I still have all his long sweet letters during my studies. He dearly loved me, as could also be seen on loads of wonderfull pictures, that he took. But cuddling? That was over once and forever. I simply stepped back,whenever he tried.

Some experiences stay forever, and that should be put into account with every spanking. If you can really justify it, also later on, its fine, if not, don't do it.

 

[kairu]

So I have an update on my point of view on this subject, because interestingly we went over it recently in my introduction psychology class, and I found what my professor had to say very interesting.

When it comes to very young children, at least, (and, according to my professor, who has a PhD in psychology--in case some of you want to know his credentials--not ALL psychologists agree on this, although the majority of them do) spanking can actually serve as a positive reinforcer. That may not make a lot of sense, but look at it this way:

A child does good things and a child does bad things. While the child is consitently punished for the bad, children aren't usually consistently rewarded for the good. Punishment for bad and reward for what is good are both forms of attention, arguably the strongest reinforcer there is.

Spanking is giving attention, although negative attention, and thus serves as a positive reinforcer for the behavior for which the child is being spanked in the first place.

When a child picks up on this (more likely unconsciously), it is actually probable that he or she will continue to do bad things, because it can get them attention. This especially makes sense in today's world, in which parents spend more time working and the child is left to daycare, goes to school earlier, nannies are hired, etc. Little attention is given by the parents in these situations. Even disregarding these, though, attention, whether positive or negative, is actually a positive reinforcer for good and bad behavior. Thus, if more punishment is given in response to bad behavior (e.g., spanking) than reward for the good, the bad behavior is being enforced more, and is more likely to continue.

The solution then, as my professor suggests, is this: As much as possible, ignore the bad and reinforce the good. If you're sitting in the car and the child is screaming and being really really really annoying, ignore it. Don't say shut up, don't yell, and don't spank; don't do anything but ignore it, as hard as that may seem. Then, when the child eventually gives up on yelling and settles down -- right when that happens! -- reinforce it with positive comments about how he or she has calmed down and that's great, et cetera.

The second step involves this sort of reward--reinforcing the positive. While the negative should be completely ignored in many to most cases (and there are exceptions to this, obviously, which I'll touch on in more detail in the next paragraph), the positive behavior needs to actually be reinforced as much as possible (meaning, every time you notice something positive: and pay attention)! Consistent attention given to positive behavior (positive reinforcement) and no attention whatsoever given to undesireable behavior (no reinforcement) can really be effective in child rearing.

There are, however, situations in which bad behavior obviously can't be ignored. For example, kid smashing another kid's head against the pavement, or child screaming in the middle of a crowded restaurant. In these instances there are two things that can be done (either one or both):

(1) Remove the child from the reinforcing situation
(2) Take something positive away

"Time out" is an example of (1), sort of. If you remove the child from the situation in which the undesired behavior is being exhibited, and keep the child in "time out" until favorable behavior returns or is adopted (then allow them back into the situation, as long as they maintain good behavior), that will reinforce the good behavior while casting negative light on the bad behavior in the child's mind.

Further, taking something positive away is a form of punishment in the way that most of us understand it, but what it actually is doing is taking away something that the child likes until good behavior returns. In other words, instead of the sort of punishment in which negative attention is "given" (this giving of attention being a positive reinforcer), you're "taking" something positive. Then, when good behavior returns, you can "give" the positive thing back, thus reinforcing the good behavior.

In this sense, giving is comparable to positive reinforcement and taking to negative reinforcement (something that makes the child want to NOT exhibit the behavior to which this taking is a response).


Unfortunately I don't have any sources to list because this is directly from my memory from my professor's lectures (got 100% on the test, though! Haha). Also, I neither that this is the only good way to raise a child, that punishment (in terms of spanking, yelling, etc) will always result in more negative behavior, nor that ignoring the child's bad behavior while reinforcing the good behavior will certainly result in all good behavior.

None of us are people, children included. But--in my opinion--physical punishment is one of humanity's imperfections, and I also suspect that it causes more harm than good.

 

[Jericho Desu]

Short answer: I'm against it.

I mean for other people I don't really care, because it's their way of disciplining (as long as it doesn't go overboard of course) their child, but for me I will never spank my kids. I believe there are other methods that can be used to get the message through to the child, whether its just simply banning favourite foods, video games, tv etc... or acting like you want nothing to do with the child, other then providing food and a place to sleep (I think making the child think you don't love him/her anymore would be quite an extreme thing, far more worse then anything else).
Its not only all that, but for me personally even though I don't have kids now, I can't imagine myself hurting them, even if its for 'their own good'.

 

[Tokis-Phoenix]

I think whatever punishment you give a child, the main thing is that you punish the kid for them doing something bad when you said you would if they did the bad thing. To many parents end up being at their wits end with their unruly behavior, but its not uncommon for this bad behavior to develop in kids when rules are not properly enforced.

Some people here seem to be against physical punishment like spanking because its physical, but then they advocate mental punishment in its place (like ignoring the child). To be honest i don't think that you can really argue that mental punishment on a child is any better than physical punishment. Mental punishment on the child like ignoring the kid isn't necessarily the best, because gone about the wrong way it can leave much more devastating effects on the child than a spank would.

Not all kids behave bad because they do it for attention, some kids behave badly because they have personal issues which they themselves do not always fully understand but end up venting their problems in the form of bad behavior, and to punish a child in such circumstances by ignoring the child's cry for help is no better than spanking the child. But everyone here seems to be talking about bad behavior in kids as a case of kids purely attention seeking, and i don't think this is correct.

To be honest, i am not against spanking kids, however that does not mean i am always in favor of it. At the end of the day, IMHO different bad child behaviors in different situations often call for different attention to the problem and different punishment.
Not every child is the same either, i honestly believe that there are some children which are easier or harder to bring up than other children, and this is partly why i think parents are flawed when they criticize other parents for the way they punish their kids because they think its unnecessary, because some kids are actually easier to bring up than others and may respond better to certain forms of punishment than others. My brother was a real terror when he was growing up, and believe me, my parents tried all sorts of punishments on him, from the classic "time out" on the stairs, to ignoring bad behavior, to making him sit in his room, to spanking him etc. The spanking unfortunately was about the only type of punishment that seemed to have any effect on him. My parents really did try with him, but unfortunately he was just a very difficult and hyperactive child. I was a completely different child on the other hand though and i was rarely punished as i was often (but not always of course) good, however i have memories that go right back in my life, and i do remember being ignored by my mother and to be honest that hurt me far more than getting spanked ever did.

 

[Jericho Desu]

Some people here seem to be against physical punishment like spanking because its physical, but then they advocate mental punishment in its place (like ignoring the child). To be honest i don't think that you can really argue that mental punishment on a child is any better than physical punishment. Mental punishment on the child like ignoring the kid isn't necessarily the best, because gone about the wrong way it can leave much more devastating effects on the child than a spank would.

As I did mention, ignoring the child would be 'extreme', as in I wouldn't do that unless it was something that needed that sort of punishment. I totally agree that if you went the wrong away about trying to hurt a child mentally, it could leave a permanent mark.

Not all kids behave bad because they do it for attention, some kids behave badly because they have personal issues which they themselves do not always fully understand but end up venting their problems in the form of bad behavior, and to punish a child in such circumstances by ignoring the child's cry for help is no better than spanking the child. But everyone here seems to be talking about bad behavior in kids as a case of kids purely attention seeking, and i don't think this is correct.

You make a valid point, this is something I normally would have thought about at first since I have acted like an idiot when I was younger due to 'personal issues'. Then I guess it does depend upon the situation at hand, however can we distinguish between what was done out of just foolishness or what was done because of a deeper underlying issue?
Maybe a 'heart to heart' talk might suffice at first to see the reason behind such behaviour and then disciniplinary action should the offence be repeated. However I stand behind what I said about never spanking/hitting my kids.

 

[kairu]

Oh yeah, ignoring a child completely is horrible! But ignoring the bad behavior--paying no attention to bad behavior when it is happening, then giving LOTS of positive attention when the bad behavior subsides or good behavior returns--is not completely ignoring the child, but not paying attention to the child's bad behavior.

The attention is the reinforcer. Thus, you need to give it in order for good behavior to be displayed, not just take it away completely.

And, of course, this doesn't necessarily apply in every situation.

 

[Han Chan]

23 countries have banned all kinds of corporal punishment

I am stunned that there are still so many who argue for the right to spank children. Fortunately more and more countries are banning this kind of degrading behavior: http://www.endcorporalpunishment.org/pages/frame.html

 

[magevampjoe]

I am only 16 years old, and I agree with giving a kid a smack for misbehaving. I wish they would bring back the cane, it would teach some people respect.

Being smacked hasn't done me any harm, it just kept me in line a bit more.
Anyway, if I say something to a parent when I am 5 years old, I get a smack. If I say something in a bar or pub to someone when they have had a few drinks, I am likely to get a punch in the face.
It helps teach you to keep your mouth shut and to act more respectably. I come from a middle class family (not working class, not posh) but we practice smacking because it works, the kid cries for 10 minutes more for humiliation than it hurting and then it is over, and the kid won't do that again or it gets a smack.

I don't know why people oppose smacking kids for misbehaving, probably the same as trying to save the tiny amount of animals used in experimentation when each year in the sewers of london around 8-12 million rats are killed. People just are too PC now.

I agree with Derfel a bit though, kids usually grow out of stuff after a while.

 

[Tokis-Phoenix]

Some related news;
"A former school nurse is to take legal action after she was sacked for smacking her 10-year-old son at home.
Susan Pope, from Malvern in Worcestershire, was arrested and her children taken from her after eldest son reported her to police.
She said she was detained for 32 hours by West Mercia Police after the incident in May last year.
She said she was taking action against her former employers, social services and the force";
Full story;
BBC NEWS | England | Hereford/Worcs | Nurse sacked after smacking son
Huh i can believe that, what a nanny state, her son is such a little bastard too! People are always complaining about the crimes committed by the youth of today, but its no wonder that we have such problems in society when a bratty little kid can get his own mother arrested and sacked from her job just for trying to enforce good manners on her own son. Well i bet he'll be getting no pocket money anymore now, specially since his mother won't be able to afford to.
You guys always go on about giving kids rights and treating kids like adults, and kids are intelligent- and they're intelligent enough to use the law to get their own way, even if their own way isn't right. I'll be laughing when you get arrested by the police when you get mugged by some little brat and you're the one that is sent to jail (by the nanny state which you voted for) for trying to protect yourself against some little bastard. (edit: i realize now this sounds very harsh and i apologize for this- i wouldn't laugh if anyone here got mugged, but i was just trying to make a point about society in general etc).
Has this kid learnt that bad actions have bad consequences on his part? Hell no! The moral of this story, is that if your parents try to stop you from doing bad behavior, you can get them arrested for abuse and have them sacked from their job!
Is this a case of an abusive bad parent who is a danger to children and who didn't deserve to be a free hard-working member of society? Or is this a case of a hard working mother who was an asset to society who tried to punish her kid for his bad antisocial behavior but ended up being the one punished (severely) for doing so?