Yukiko chan
先輩
- 18 May 2008
- 208
- 10
If you pay some attention your question makes three assumptions: 1/ that the universe actually came into being at some point in the past, 2/ that there's some agent that made the universe come into being, i.e. a cause external and independent from our universe, 3/ that that cause could be addressed as a "who", i.e. as a conscious being.
The first assumption seems to be true, based on the big bang theory. However, the big bang theory does not rule out other possibilities in which our universe would be infinitely old, either by itself or as part of a multiverse.
The second assumption seems to be true by virtue of the causality principle. But let me remind you that all of our rules, principles, knowledge, you name it, is inherently linked to our experience within our universe (the observable part of our universe to be more accurate). Causality (that each event has a cause that preceded it in time, and each object has an origin) seems to apply perfectly within the universe, but to apply it to the universe itself would be totally unscientific, as there's no evidence suggesting the existence of anything beyond our universe/multiverse (remember, you were using that argument to try to prove such an existence, so it would be utterly nonsensical to start by assuming it).
The third assumption has no rational basis and poses more problems than it solves. First of, we humans are the only conscious beings that we know. Consciousness is defined by the potentials of our brains and the operations they perform, thus any mention of other "conscious beings" would probably be a form of anthropomorphism. Second, a conscious agent would require an explanation as to how it came into being. Did it for example evolve following a process similar to the one that created our complex brains? More questions and hypotheses that we have no way to answer or verify by principle, since gods are supposed to be transcendent are metaphysical. Over and over I've heard the argument of the organization of the universe, and its intelligibility to the human brain, as a "proof" of an intelligent designer. What proponents of this idea seem to miss is that there's much more chaos in the universe than there's organization. Our planetary system for example did not come to its current relative stability from the start. There used to be over 20 planets whose orbits intersected one another's, and collided with each other, and the ones we see now are just the ones that survived that chaotic period of our solar system... and there are many more examples of chaos in our universe that I can provide... as to intelligibility itself, I think that's a direct implication of us being conscious beings. I define consciousness as a potential to organize sensory input into "comprehensible" structures that we call "information". The universe is "intelligible" simply because we are "conscious", and not because it is endemically so. In other words, the phenomenon of intelligibility arises when a conscious being interacts with its environment. There is therefore no reason to assume that it must have been made by another conscious being.
Yukiko chan
先輩
- 18 May 2008
- 208
- 10
I'm an Atheist. I left religion at the age of 14, which was quite a feat I have to say given the fact that I was raised in a deeply conservative family, and I did it all by myself through personal readings and introspection... I spoke to another atheist for the first time when I was 19 yo, and for about 5 years I thought I might be one of very few atheists, if not the only atheist out there!
I consider myself a weak atheist: I do not believe that no entities deserving the nomenclature "deity" can exist, but I highly doubt they'd correspond to the ones described in traditional religions. I also think that some logically consistent conceptions of deities, like the deist god, Spinoza's pantheistic god, and the god(s) of some forms of gnosticism and mysticism, are beautiful but quite unnecessary and superfluous. I regard atheism as an implication of the law of parsimony (often called "Occam's Razor"): since deities are not required to explain the existence and the evolution of the universe, there's no need to assume their existence (the 19th century French physicist Pierre Simon de Laplace expressed that quite eloquently when he responded to Napoleon who had asked him why he had not spoken of god in his treatises on physics: "God is a hypothesis that I had no need for"). But I understand that scientific thought is not everyone's priority, nor the sole component of human existence, so I'm perfectly fine with any other vocation that other people may choose, as long it doesn't imply restricting people's freedom of thought and conscience, indoctrination of children, killing and threatening minorities (apostates and homosexuals for example), etc. Sadly, I see that the teachings of many religions contain such above mentioned absurd restrictions and commands, even though apologists may try to cherry-pick and mention only passages that speak of love and compassion... I think many, and probably most, believers are genuinely good and kindhearted, but religion could make them commit atrocities in the name of protecting what they perceive as the highest of values...
All hail Thor, and his sexy sister Freyja!
Your post was made about 3 years and a half ago, and you don't seem to be posting in JREF anymore but, whatever your current religious/philosophical system of thought is, I hope that by this time you had found your inner peace and stability.
For those of us who are freethinkers the journey never comes to an end...
I consider myself a weak atheist: I do not believe that no entities deserving the nomenclature "deity" can exist, but I highly doubt they'd correspond to the ones described in traditional religions. I also think that some logically consistent conceptions of deities, like the deist god, Spinoza's pantheistic god, and the god(s) of some forms of gnosticism and mysticism, are beautiful but quite unnecessary and superfluous. I regard atheism as an implication of the law of parsimony (often called "Occam's Razor"): since deities are not required to explain the existence and the evolution of the universe, there's no need to assume their existence (the 19th century French physicist Pierre Simon de Laplace expressed that quite eloquently when he responded to Napoleon who had asked him why he had not spoken of god in his treatises on physics: "God is a hypothesis that I had no need for"). But I understand that scientific thought is not everyone's priority, nor the sole component of human existence, so I'm perfectly fine with any other vocation that other people may choose, as long it doesn't imply restricting people's freedom of thought and conscience, indoctrination of children, killing and threatening minorities (apostates and homosexuals for example), etc. Sadly, I see that the teachings of many religions contain such above mentioned absurd restrictions and commands, even though apologists may try to cherry-pick and mention only passages that speak of love and compassion... I think many, and probably most, believers are genuinely good and kindhearted, but religion could make them commit atrocities in the name of protecting what they perceive as the highest of values...
All hail Thor, and his sexy sister Freyja!
Mavrek said:
Your post was made about 3 years and a half ago, and you don't seem to be posting in JREF anymore but, whatever your current religious/philosophical system of thought is, I hope that by this time you had found your inner peace and stability.
For those of us who are freethinkers the journey never comes to an end...
Mycernius
The Hairy Wookie
- 4 Feb 2005
- 4,644
- 203
Maybe I should say some muslims, but most of them that protested belonged in Afganistan and other major islamic countries. This wasn't one lone muslims, it was a gang of them, whilst many protested in the streets. A majority, especially in Afghanistan cannot fall under the title of "some".
Now I am against any book burning, but I do not live under islamic law, I do not live in an islamic country and, therefore, I am not subject to islamic law, I should not feel threatened by people just because I critcise a particular religion, and I have been in the past. In fact once by one ex-member on this forum.
If your religion wants respect then the lunatic fundies should ****. Before 9/11 Islam was not treated with the kid gloves it is now. You should thank that dead baka Bin Laden for all the crap islam has been putting up with recently.
- 23 Sep 2005
- 1,295
- 76
Hmm i seem to have voted buddist on this poll though i don't know when.
Anyhoo i consider myself a strong agnostic. I believe in ethics & morality but i don't pretend to know if there is or isn't a god/s out there. I like to keep an open mind on things ^_^v .
Anyhoo i consider myself a strong agnostic. I believe in ethics & morality but i don't pretend to know if there is or isn't a god/s out there. I like to keep an open mind on things ^_^v .
Coffeesan
先輩
- 6 Jul 2011
- 164
- 3
This is one of my first posts so hey all. I'm an Atheist and in general hate the concept of religion. I tell people this and sometimes many get offended or angry interpreting the statement as ''I hate religious people'' which is actually a very different belief and one which I do not hold. I think all religions are wrong and silly which ACTUALLY is quite useful in a way because It means I have no issues with any religion in particular because I think their all equally silly etc, which means I generally treat all religions the same which is fair I think.
I think their all wrong, its an opinion and nothing more. I have friends of pretty much every religion I can think of and their beliefs dont bother me in the slightest their my friend because of who they are and their religion has very little bearing on anything. My 2 best friends are Sikh and Muslim and quite often we all joke about the other and take the piss but its done in a tasteful way amongst friends. Its laidback, I think all people can do that really as long as they are respectful and the others know their only messing around. When people crack atheist jokes at me if its done as laidback banter I really dont get offended in the slightest because deep down I know its just respectful joking around..
I think their all wrong, its an opinion and nothing more. I have friends of pretty much every religion I can think of and their beliefs dont bother me in the slightest their my friend because of who they are and their religion has very little bearing on anything. My 2 best friends are Sikh and Muslim and quite often we all joke about the other and take the piss but its done in a tasteful way amongst friends. Its laidback, I think all people can do that really as long as they are respectful and the others know their only messing around. When people crack atheist jokes at me if its done as laidback banter I really dont get offended in the slightest because deep down I know its just respectful joking around..
Nuala
Hell's Finest Daughter
- 15 Jul 2004
- 1,725
- 39
No god or masters, eh? That's not necessarily a bad thing. Sure, you don't have the comfort of thinking that you're going to go to some paradise after you die, but I would much prefer going to my hole in the ground without being lied to. After all, it's a small comfort in comparison to being honest with yourself.
Haruspex
先輩
- 30 Aug 2007
- 2,324
- 96
Nihility in death can quite easily mean mental freedom in life. Things become far less convoluted if you disregard all the nebulous rubbish that people often come up with. No deities, no right and wrong, none of that nonsense. In my own experience, one of the best parts is realising your own insignificance. Nowadays whenever I hear this 'I want to make a difference!', 'I don't want to waste my life!' bollocks, I just laugh and ask 'Well, what exactly does that mean?' It is both irritating and funny looking at people running around like headless chicken looking for cosmic directions and moral truths.
Nuala
Hell's Finest Daughter
- 15 Jul 2004
- 1,725
- 39
I wouldn't necessarily describe myself as nihilistic. There is a point to what we do on this planet, and it's to further our species along until it's inevitable extinction. Yes, I guess it would be nihilistic if you considered the latter, yet I truly believe that isn't going to happen anytime soon. As far as making a difference in your life, that's so goddamn easy. But what most people mean to say is that they want glory.
You can make a difference in a soup kitchen, by raising money for a charity, or for volunteering with one. You can help a friend in need. You can shovel an elderly neighbor's driveway in the winter, buy them crap from the store so they don't have to go out in the bad weather. You can lend a friend some money for gasoline, or comfort them when they're down. This is all making a big difference, as what would they have done had you not come forward to help? This is what matters most, but it seems so many lose sight of what making a difference actually means.
Yes, I recognize that I am going to die. I'm not sure if it's the end of the line for me in this Universe, but I know that I will have helped people when I could, and whether or not there is some continuance afterwards is of no concern to me. Why worry about what happens after death when there's so much to do in life?
amatamit1
先輩
- 15 Jul 2011
- 21
- 0
im a Muslim and i believe all religion is good and teaches their followers to be good. the problem is that the followers themselves do not follow the teachings fully and truthfully. and there are some who misinterpret the teachings to fit their goals and desires which usually leads to bad things.
ThunderAlex
後輩
- 17 Jul 2011
- 3
- 0
I don't believe in any religions so... none
I'm a Deist
I'm a Deist
I very strongly agree with you....=)
Kaelus
後輩
- 1 Aug 2011
- 18
- 0
I firmly disagree with Organized religion. People need to believe in things from time to time, but I don't think that buying into someone-else's thoughts simply because they feel good is actually taking responsibility and more importantly Accountability for one's own life.
Trabu
writer & chicken breeder
- 23 Mar 2012
- 31
- 2
I went Paganism, because I am Pagan, but I am real mixed up person I follow Buddhism as well, and I consider myself as a student of Metaphysical. Everything that comes under Spiritual or Spiritualism. I practice many Buddhism traditions along with my others. For example prayers. Then, with the Paganism. I am more of the Pagan that practice's the Wicca Paganism. So what am I 
So that's what I mean by mixed up. But it's fun explaining what my religious beliefs are. Well, some people don't consider Metaphysicalism (Don't really know what to call it ) a religion at all, including Paganism and Wicca. Some people say that its a type of Atheist as well. But we do have gods too thank you very much (to no one in particular lol). I also look into Hinduism and Shintoism. And Confucianism I also believe in, just that I don't consider as 'the' religion I believe in. And then there is also Shamanism. Not all of it I belive in, but a lot I do. Not to forget Native American beliefs. But with Shamanism I much prefer the Mongolian or Korean Shamanism, and Native American. If that is considered Shamanism. So really, now I have just confused myself as I just realized this is what I consider as my religion. And, oh great, not to forget that I made up my own religion! Ahhh! When am I going to stop and realise that I am strange! Which I much prefer rather than being a sheep and doing what everyone else is doing ^-^ Hmm, I think I might post something like this in Spiritual Forums lol! Man, what went wrong when I was born
I follow Buddhism as well, and I consider myself as a student of Metaphysical. Everything that comes under Spiritual or Spiritualism. I practice many Buddhism traditions along with my others. For example prayers. Then, with the Paganism. I am more of the Pagan that practice's the Wicca Paganism. So what am I So that's what I mean by mixed up. But it's fun explaining what my religious beliefs are. Well, some people don't consider Metaphysicalism (Don't really know what to call it ) a religion at all, including Paganism and Wicca. Some people say that its a type of Atheist as well. But we do have gods too thank you very much (to no one in particular lol). I also look into Hinduism and Shintoism. And Confucianism I also believe in, just that I don't consider as 'the' religion I believe in. And then there is also Shamanism. Not all of it I belive in, but a lot I do. Not to forget Native American beliefs. But with Shamanism I much prefer the Mongolian or Korean Shamanism, and Native American. If that is considered Shamanism. So really, now I have just confused myself as I just realized this is what I consider as my religion. And, oh great, not to forget that I made up my own religion! Ahhh! When am I going to stop and realise that I am strange! Which I much prefer rather than being a sheep and doing what everyone else is doing ^-^ Hmm, I think I might post something like this in Spiritual Forums lol! Man, what went wrong when I was born 
Trabu
writer & chicken breeder
- 23 Mar 2012
- 31
- 2
lol
@ Mike Cash: Are they really religions/beliefs. O_O And also OMG that people do belive in that O_O
Abdur Rahman
先輩
- 6 Apr 2012
- 89
- 23
I am Muslim
I believe that Allah is the only God
I believe that Allah is the only God
- 5 Apr 2012
- 438
- 46
Modern western satanizm could be considered as extreme christianic cult, in the other words, it does have chistian roots and it is quite supplementary in all aspects of life and afterlife
Trabu
writer & chicken breeder
- 23 Mar 2012
- 31
- 2
Modern western satanizm could be considered as extreme christianic cult, in the other words, it does have chistian roots and it is quite supplementary in all aspects of life and afterlife
Pheww. I was thinking that it was the worshipping of Satan!
- 5 Apr 2012
- 438
- 46
Yep, but who is a Satan? Fallen angel - antagonist of g-d. He-he. Some confessions suppose it as a dark side of ... anyway, those are dual entities, and they could not exists separately. Once You'd recognize one side, You'd recognize other automatically. :sorry:
