Rewriting History Again "Japan to Revise Books on WWII Suicides"

caster51 · 25 Jun 2007

I understand that people get emotional about this subject however there is no need to over exaggerate the numbers of people here in Okinawa.
There are a little over 240,000 recognized deaths from all sides from the Battle of Okinawa.
Let's not get too carried away in trying to make a point please.

it is as same as hiroshima, nagasaki...
at first ,it is true that american dropped a-bomd.
why this point is not made as big . Did they forget it?

caster51 · 25 Jun 2007

Ｉ think the objective fact should be written in History textbook

Hero and victim's emotion are not needed in textbook
Is it a problem to correct the history of the lie?Then, the justice is only
ruined by emotion

pipokun · 25 Jun 2007

Obeika said:
One thing that was different here in the battle of Okinawa was the unprecedented numbers of Japanese soldiers that surrendered or were captured over 10,000 or roughly 10% of force that was here defending the island.
...

Thank you for your English lesson.

mil·lion
million /míllyən/
noun
plural millions
1. thousand thousand: a thousand thousand (106)
2. large number: a very large number
(often used in the plural)
3. million units of a currency: a million units of a currency, especially dollars or pounds
4. seventh digit to left of decimal: the seventh digit to the left of the decimal point in the decimal number system

I just intended to use the meaning #2.

I don't know how to use the English word, unprecedented, but do you know roughly 10% was signigicantly low percentage compared with other countries. And it was just a few points higher than other battle fields.
But I don't mean here it was good or bad, just I don't under/overestimate it.

It is also a fact many people feel the activist toublesome.

Elizabeth van Kampen · 25 Jun 2007

Was there a Kempeitai office in Okinawa? Yes?

Then none of you shall ever know the answer, because then all evidents have been properly destroyed.

The7thSamurai · 25 Jun 2007

caster51 said:
it is as same as hiroshima, nagasaki...
at first ,it is true that american dropped a-bomd.
why this point is not made as big . Did they forget it?

I think you'll find that Westerners know more about Hiroshima and Nagasaki than incidents of Japanese brutalisation. We get taught about Hiroshima and Nagasaki from a very young age in Australia. It wasn't until after I became interested in Japan that I found out about things like the Rape of Nanking, the Rape of Manilla, Japanese scientific experiments on live humans etc.

So if anything, the West is actually more ignorant about Japan's atrocities than the Japanese. For the average person, WWII in the Pacific started because Japan bombed Pearl Harbour.

KirinMan · 25 Jun 2007

pipokun said:
Thank you for your English lesson.
I just intended to use the meaning #2.
I don't know how to use the English word, unprecedented, but do you know roughly 10% was signigicantly low percentage compared with other countries. And it was just a few points higher than other battle fields.
But I don't mean here it was good or bad, just I don't under/overestimate it.
It is also a fact many people feel the activist toublesome.

Unprecendented means without previous instance; never before known or experienced; unexampled or unparalleled: an unprecedented event.

There is a very good reason for using that when talking about the battle that happened here. Previous to Okinawa the Japanese forces that defended the islands that the US landed on in it's island hopping campaign across the pacific almost never surrendered and either committed suicide or died attacking the US forces in well noted suicidal attacks against heavily fortified positions.

This reference has nothing to do with other countries. This comment was made as a point of fact about the Japanese forces only.

You over exaggerated the numbers of deaths by naval gunfire here in the battle of Okinawa by staing that "millions" were killed.

I think you'll find that Westerners know more about Hiroshima and Nagasaki than incidents of Japanese brutalisation. We get taught about Hiroshima and Nagasaki from a very young age in Australia. It wasn't until after I became interested in Japan that I found out about things like the Rape of Nanking, the Rape of Manilla, Japanese scientific experiments on live humans etc.

I think that depends on the country, when I was in school I was taught about these events in history about WWII.

So if anything, the West is actually more ignorant about Japan's atrocities than the Japanese.

I dont know about this many Japanese people I know are pretty much in the dark about these incidents as well. And it does no good to further muddy the waters by attemtping to further rewrite accepted history.
I know that the Chinese and Koreans are well schooled in these atrocities, hence their current dislike for the current Japanese administrations push to rewrite many different aspects regarding WWII. That however is a different topic not related to this one.

Hero and victim's emotion are not needed in textbook

Caster it has nothing to do with emotions, other than anger at the attempt to changes what occured here.

Caster do you actually think that all the Prefectural, City and Town assemblies here in Okinawa are misguided? They all voted unanimously against the proposed changes to the textbooks, if you are as intelligent as I think you are that should open your eyes that something is wrong.

It isnt just one American here, me, telling you that something isnt right, it's all the elected representatives here in Okinawa. Plus the recently elected member of the Japanese Diet from Okinawa Itokazu Keiko is reported to have said that she will be bringing this issue up to the full assembly of the Japanese parliment in either the next few days or weeks.

caster51 said:
it is as same as hiroshima, nagasaki...
at first ,it is true that american dropped a-bomd.
why this point is not made as big . Did they forget it?

Caster did you forget that more people died here in Okinawa during the battle here than the bombs of Hiroshima and Nagasaki combined.

Yet the world remembers Hiroshima and Nagasaki, but few remember Okinawa.

Did you forget this?

The7thSamurai · 25 Jun 2007

Obeika said:
I dont know about this many Japanese people I know are pretty much in the dark about these incidents as well.

I would dispute that. From my experience, the whole idea about Japanese people being in the dark about their WWII history is a myth. They are all taught about the atrocities at school, and it's frequently talked about in the mass media. The fact that people are trying to CHANGE the current textbooks would tell you that the CURRENT ones all talk about all these incidents.

There are, of course, some minor events which the average Japanese wouldn't know, like maybe the bombing of Australia which killed around 100 people. I'm certainly never offended nor surprised when a Japanese doesn't know about this. Doesn't mean they don't know about the major incidents though.

pipokun · 25 Jun 2007

You over exaggerated the numbers of deaths by naval gunfire here in the battle of Okinawa by staing that "millions" were killed.

OK, I use a very large number (2. large number: a very large number) people were killed by naval gunfire here.
Just google Typhoon of Steel. But don't get me wrong, I also understand the feeling why the Typhoon was needed by the US, though I don't know if they really needed the typhoon after Japan lost air supremacy in Okinawa. This is the same question about the Nagasaki.
FIY, the Tokashiki incident, which was allegedly the cause of forced suicide, happened after the loss of air supremacy.

Not all support the anti-base activist in Okinawa or else, though it is highly likely the next step of the activist is about the base.

caster51 · 25 Jun 2007

Caster did you forget that more people died here in Okinawa during the battle here than the bombs of Hiroshima and Nagasaki combined.
Yet the world remembers Hiroshima and Nagasaki, but few remember Okinawa.
Did you forget this?

??
there were more in mainland

Yet the world remembers Hiroshima and Nagasaki, but few remember Okinawa.
Did you forget this?[

of course ,U.S forse bomded indiscriminatry and killed many civilians
and US force should get out from Okinawa

I think that depends on the country, when I was in school I was taught about these events in history about WWII

WOW. no japanese says so.
you mean it chronology ?

I thought the history is one that study myself

Ewok85 · 25 Jun 2007

Bucko said:
There are, of course, some minor events which the average Japanese wouldn't know, like maybe the bombing of Australia which killed around 100 people. I'm certainly never offended nor surprised when a Japanese doesn't know about this. Doesn't mean they don't know about the major incidents though.

Haha, I had a real laugh when a guy asked me where I was born, and he knew about the bombing of Darwin. I thought that was something really bizarre to know about, as its fairly minor history. (The bigger deal was that so many people ran away!)

caster51 said:
it is as same as hiroshima, nagasaki...
at first ,it is true that american dropped a-bomd.
why this point is not made as big . Did they forget it?

Do I really have to answer this? Japan aggressively attacked and invaded dozens of nations. Its called a war.

I hate repeating myself, but without the A-bombs, do you think that the war would have been resolved with less Japanese people dying, or more?

caster51 · 25 Jun 2007

Do I really have to answer this? Japan aggressively attacked and invaded dozens of nations. Its called a war.

I hate repeating myself, but without the A-bombs, do you think that the war would have been resolved with less Japanese people dying, or more?

Yes you are absolutely right.
if I did not kill, I was killed...this is principle of War
so we have to discuss what war is ....

then who is repeating the WAR NOW
There is no war that the citizens are not sacrificed.

WHY DOES WAR happen?

what was american taught from history in school?
NOTHING

If japan killed more chinese until last for end of War....? dying or more

your logic is like that

caster51 · 26 Jun 2007

Obeika said:
I understand that people get emotional about this subject however there is no need to over exaggerate the numbers of people here in Okinawa.
There are a little over 240,000 recognized deaths from all sides from the Battle of Okinawa.
Let's not get too carried away in trying to make a point please.

200,000 ppl were killed by bombing of US fighter and ship's guns bombardment among 240,000.
Only the bald mountains remained by them

I can say it was massacre.
it is 100 time more credibility than in Nanjing .

KirinMan · 26 Jun 2007

caster51 said:
200,000 ppl were killed by bombing of US fighter and ship's guns bombardment among 240,000.
Only the bald mountains remainedﾂ by them

Caster I wouldn't go that far I am pretty sure that the Marines and soldiers killed their fair share of Japanese too.

Caster how old are you?

Second half of post.......off topic.

Ewok85 · 26 Jun 2007

I'm going to say only one last thing in this thread.

When did Japan surrender?
Answer: Not until after Okinawa, after Hiroshima, after Nagasaki. After it had annexed Korea, and China, and the Philippines, and Singapore, and Manilla, and New Guinea, and... etc etc.

Japan was a country at war, which refused to surrender, violently attacked other countries and killed millions of people. This is pure, undeniable fact.

When the tide of the war swung at Midway, Japan was slowly forced back. Despite losing ships, planes and soldiers, despite having Okinawa attacked, Japan did not surrender. This is pure, undeniable fact.

Japan was a country that was at war. It chose to be at war. And it chose to surrender, and stop the war.

The attacks against Japan stopped. The killing stopped.

To call counter-attacks on a country that started hostilities against other countries to be a "massacre" is pushing the boundaries of reality IMO. And then to compare it to Nanking is offensive.

Time and again I wonder just how someone can take a "victim" mentality when it was their own country who started hostilities against dozens of nations and invaded the entirety of what we call "South East Asia". More shocking is the culture of denial around the more shocking events, despite the amount of witness reports from both sides that exist, and sadly I think that history and the real victims are going to lose this one as the dead have little way to defend themselves.

KirinMan · 26 Jun 2007

I would dispute that. From my experience, the whole idea about Japanese people being in the dark about their WWII history is a myth. They are all taught about the atrocities at school, and it's frequently talked about in the mass media. The fact that people are trying to CHANGE the current textbooks would tell you that the CURRENT ones all talk about all these incidents

The current textbooks only refer to the incidents where Japanese people were the victims. There is scant to zero reference to the issues of the comfort women or the atrocities of Nanking and or the infamous Unit 731.

Students here are not taught about these subjects. Unit 731 is not talked about in the media, plus the only reason the Comfort Women issue or this issue is being discussed in the media is because "other" countries brought these issues up as being unresolved.

though I don't know if they really needed the typhoon after Japan lost air supremacy in Okinawa. This is the same question about the Nagasaki.
FIY, the Tokashiki incident, which was allegedly the cause of forced suicide, happened after the loss of air supremacy.

In war bombs cause superficial and not subterrain damage. The Japanese troops were holed up into caves and underground bunkers, no amount of naval gunfire or dropping of bombs would have dislodged them from their positions. Whether or not there was air superiority for the US the ground forces had to be defeated otherwise the island would never have been taken.

Oh and btw the suicides are not just about Tokashiki but here on the main island of Okinawa as well, and they are not allegeded incidents but facts.I challenge you as I challenged Caster to come here to Okinawa and talk to the survivors of the war, visit the war museum, and see the battle sites.

If you can come away afterwards and still think that these incidents were "allegeded" then you and I have nothing further to discuss on this topic and I will leave you alone.

Dont stay in a cocoon of disbelief in thinking that these incidents are just the figment of the Okinawan peoples imagination.

KirinMan · 26 Jun 2007

I would dispute that. From my experience, the whole idea about Japanese people being in the dark about their WWII history is a myth. They are all taught about the atrocities at school, and it's frequently talked about in the mass media. The fact that people are trying to CHANGE the current textbooks would tell you that the CURRENT ones all talk about all these incidents

I would like to add something further here in response to this statement. I had the opportunity today to talk to a couple of people about this topic, one is a history professor and the other is a JHS/HS Social Studies teacher.
You may be surprised to learn that there are many younger kids here in Japan today that have no knowledge that Japan even fought a war with the US.
It is no myth that they are in the dark about what happened, sure they learn about Hiroshima and Nagasaki but they are taught nothing about any of the atrocities that were committed.

The textbooks in question also do not go into detail about the war itself but cover the issue of the Battle of Okinawa from the point of view as it being the only land battle actually fought here in Japan during the war. Hence the desire to make the Japanese Imperial Army and it's aggressions towards it's own people less known amongst the general public.

After hearing what they had to tell me about this topic I began to understand better why some people posting on this thread do not want to admit, realize or accept that these atrocities ever occured.

It is the same as a child being told from birth that "this never happened". The child being a child accepts the information because the child knows and trusts the people teaching him or her. The obvious reaction is anger, disbelief and distrust when they are faced with or given information that goes against everything they were taught.

One can not blame the child for not being informed, they are not wrong because they were never exposed to or taught that there are always at least two sides to every history. The child is not taught how to take information and formulate their own decisions but only is force fed what the current government wants it to believe.

One can only lay the blame on the government that allowed the child to be only exposed to or taught a paper thin view of the actual events in question. It is about time the government here stop treating it's citizens as children that don't know any better and let the people make their own decisions, based on a wider and more open view of the events and how they unfolded.

Open debate among the citizens without the government influencing the outcome would be healthy.

The Japanese of today should have no reason to fear, or feel guilt about it's past, but to do so the people here throughout Japan, and not just here in Okinawa need to know what happened.

Put both sides or arugments out in the open let the people decide which to believe. Dont favor one or the other, teach kids to think for themselves and not just to memorize data for one test or another.

The7thSamurai · 26 Jun 2007

Obeika said:
I would like to add something further here in response to this statement. I had the opportunity today to talk to a couple of people about this topic, one is a history professor and the other is a JHS/HS Social Studies teacher.
You may be surprised to learn that there are many younger kids here in Japan today that have no knowledge that Japan even fought a war with the US.
It is no myth that they are in the dark about what happened, sure they learn about Hiroshima and Nagasaki but they are taught nothing about any of the atrocities that were committed.

Oh please. It's basically a personality trait of a history teacher to say that young people don't know about history. I know they all said that back when I was at school. And how young are these "younger kids" anyway? It's possible that they're at the stage of not learning it. Or it possible that they're just plain uninterested in it.

Have you ever read a Japanese school history text book? The ones I've read have it written in there clear as crystal. I wish I still had the junior high history textbook that was given to me to help me practice Japanese. However you can go to any bookstore and find where all the textbooks are, just pick up any random history text that is based on modern Japanese history and you'll see a nice big writeup on all the main events in WWII, including Nanking.

Also, a few months ago I went to the Hiroshima Peace Museum, and one of the first things you read as you walk in is about the Nanking Incident. It states in big bold letters (in Japanese) that Chinese were being massacred by the Japanese, and that between tens of thousands and hundreds of thousands were killed. Thousands of schoolkids go to this museum every month and read this information.

Anyway, like in any country, there are people who are just plain uninterested in this stuff. It's irrevelant to them. But to claim that the Japanese population in general does not know about these incidents is either a lie, or being said by someone who's been fed propaganda.

Elizabeth van Kampen · 26 Jun 2007

Hi Bucko,

I am very interested, wish we could buy the text books overhere in Holland, but then in English.
You mentioned the Hiroshima Peace Museum, do you know that they have a very nice website? http://serv.peace.hiroshima-cu.ac.jp/English/

Hi Obeika,
By the way, also in the Netherlands our schools they only learn a lot about WWII in Europe, and as little as possible about the other side of the world during that war. People in general are far more interested in what is close to them

pipokun · 26 Jun 2007

Obeika said:
I would like to add something further here in response to this statement. I had the opportunity today to talk to a couple of people about this topic, one is a history professor and the other is a JHS/HS Social Studies teacher.
You may be surprised to learn that there are many younger kids here in Japan today that have no knowledge that Japan even fought a war with the US.
It is no myth that they are in the dark about what happened, sure they learn about Hiroshima and Nagasaki but they are taught nothing about any of the atrocities that were committed.
...

Bring the teachers here. He/she should have said that many younger kids in their schools.
But it is you who are lying here, because in Okinawa there are tons of (sorry for the adjective) peace education.

No matter how loud the teachers would be, you cannot find any evidence that the military forced to commited suicide, but the people who killed the victims were nothing but fanatic locals killed their families or neighbours. But I cannot jugde the fanatism right/wrong then from the present point of views.
This case is very similar to the confort woman issue, some activists claim that there had been forced suicide by military in a broader sense of meaning.

窶ｰﾂｽ窶堙?窶冦窶堙ｧ窶堙遺?堋｢窶堙遺?堙ｱ窶堙?陳ｾ窶堋､窶堙娯?堙債、窶堋｢窶堋ｭ窶堙ｧ窶堙遺?堙ｱ窶堙??堙?ﾅ陳ｾ窶堋｢窶堋ｷ窶堋ｬ窶堙??堋ｷ窶堙ｦﾂ。
ﾂ（窶堋ｱ窶堙ｪ窶堋ｭ窶堙ｧ窶堋｢窶堙娯?愿ｺ窶怒ﾅ津ｪ窶堙??堋ｵ窶堋ｽ窶堙ｧ窶板昶?ｰﾃｰ窶堙??堋ｫ窶堙懌?堋ｷ窶堋ｩﾂ？ﾂ）

Off-topic
Elizabeth van Kampen, how much Dutch young studnets know about the post-war Idonesia, I mean, about the independence. Do you think it was right that so many Indonesian were killed. No matter how many you have good friends there, it is also a fact that it has been highly controversial issue in your country when Indonesia was independent form your country.
Off-topic #2
If you have time to read tens of thoudands of documents in your country, just try to find the infamous Unit 731. So far, many activists are eager to find the truth, but they cannot find demonised documents at all.

KirinMan · 26 Jun 2007

Bring the teachers here. He/she should have said that many younger kids in their schools.
But it is you who are lying here, because in Okinawa there are tons of (sorry for the adjective) peace education.

Now then you could have asked for clarification, I've written about the topic of Heiwa Gakkshu on other topics and you commented about it as well so you know darn well that I am not refering to Okinawan kids.

Next time ask for clarification before calling someone a liar. You lost a hell of a lot of respect that I once had for you by resorting to name calling, to say the least I am disappointed.

I take offense at the insult

Oh and if you didnt know I live in Japan so with regards to bringing the teacher here....well you figure that one out.

No matter how loud the teachers would be, you cannot find any evidence that the military forced to commited suicide,

No comment, I've said more than enough about this one. You either believe or you dont, and your choice is obvious.

窶ｰﾂｽ窶堙?窶冦窶堙ｧ窶堙遺?堋｢窶堙遺?堙ｱ窶堙?陳ｾ窶堋､窶堙娯?堙債、窶堋｢窶堋ｭ窶堙ｧ窶堙遺?堙ｱ窶堙??堙?ﾅ陳ｾ窶堋｢窶堋ｷ窶堋ｬ窶堙??堋ｷ窶堙ｦﾂ。
ﾂ（窶堋ｱ窶堙ｪ窶堋ｭ窶堙ｧ窶堋｢窶堙娯?愿ｺ窶怒ﾅ津ｪ窶堙??堋ｵ窶堋ｽ窶堙ｧ窶板昶?ｰﾃｰ窶堙??堋ｫ窶堙懌?堋ｷ窶堋ｩﾂ？ﾂ）

Next and if I am not mistaken posting in Japanese without providing a translation in English is frowned upon on this board unless the post is in the learning Japanese fora.

Oh please. It's basically a personality trait of a history teacher to say that young people don't know about history. I know they all said that back when I was at school. And how young are these "younger kids" anyway? It's possible that they're at the stage of not learning it. Or it possible that they're just plain uninterested in it.

I'm sorry but I trust their thoughts and ideas on this issue more than yours plus I have a JHS social studies textbook, it wasnt there. Different areas have different texts. Wrong here, it has nothing to do with whether they study or not. They are not taught it.

Here in Okinawa there is more exposure because of the bases and the Battle. It does get studied here, I've written about that one before. I do not need to repeat it again and again.

Going to the peace memorials is different than what some child is taught in a classroom you should know that.

that Chinese were being massacred by the Japanese, and that between tens of thousands and hundreds of thousands were killed.

I would love to see where that is written. If you have a picture I would appreciate you sharing it here to show to another person that posts here.

The7thSamurai · 26 Jun 2007

plus I have a JHS social studies textbook, it wasnt there

What's your point? Maybe WWII wasn't a focus of that particular textbook?? Many of my social studies textbooks from school never mentioned the War either. It just depends on the focus of the textbook.

I'll try and attach the picture I took at the Hiroshima Peace Museum...

dscn4365ih4.jpg - Click to see more photos

That's a big poster about 100 x 70cm that's right at the front entrance of the museum.

Ahh, sorry that picture comes out horizontally. The English is a direct translation from the Japanese too, so no cries about how the English version might be different.

pipokun · 26 Jun 2007

Obeika said:
Now then you could have asked for clarification, I've written about the topic of Heiwa Gakkshu on other topics and you commented about it as well so you know darn well that I am not refering to Okinawan kids.
Next time ask for clarification before calling someone a liar. You lost a hell of a lot of respect that I once had for you by resorting to name calling, to say the least I am disappointed.
...

As this is a forum to discuss, I don't care if you are offended. But you missed your point that your favorite heiwa gakushu is not only thing in Okinawa. "You don't know somewhere else" is totally different from "there is nothing done". And I have repeatedly said, mainly to the former admin, about the education before you registered here after I saw lots of posts, something like Japan did nothing.

4321go · 26 Jun 2007

Obeika said:
I would love to see where that is written. If you have a picture I would appreciate you sharing it here to show to another person that posts here.

If you are lazy enough...you can ask anybody to do anything for you.

of course , if you choose blind,nobody can regain your sight

KirinMan · 27 Jun 2007

pipokun said:
As this is a forum to discuss, I don't care if you are offended. ............. And I have repeatedly said, mainly to the former admin, about the education before you registered here after I saw lots of posts, something like Japan did nothing.

First off, as you know there are rules on this forum about insulting people, when I "insulted" another member here I was given a strict warning about watching the rules and adhering to the rules and forum ettiquite. Maybe you havent noticed before but people here get warnings or in worst case scenarios get banned, when it is reported. If you are fine with that, that's up to you. I have refrained from posting anything rude in reply to you, it doesnt mean I cant, it just means that I choose not to, that is your choice as well.

I have no idea what you wrote to a "former" admin here, however you know very well that I talked about this on another thread with you before. To refresh your memory a bit you even asked me to post it on the Japanese language part of this forum as well.

If you are lazy enough...you can ask anybody to do anything for
you.
of course , if you choose blind,nobody can regain your sight

It's not a matter of being lazy its a matter of location.

I'll try and attach the picture I took at the Hiroshima Peace Museum...
http://img266.imageshack.us/my.php?i...scn4365ih4.jpg

Thank you, unfortunately it isnt definitive, but it is heartening to see at least that the Chinese estimates, I know that sounds crass, are included as well once again thanks for sharing. Do you mind if I use this on another thread?

KirinMan · 27 Jun 2007

What's your point? Maybe WWII wasn't a focus of that particular textbook?? Many of my social studies textbooks from school never mentioned the War either. It just depends on the focus of the textbook.

That's the point, different textbooks are used throughout Japan. So depending on the location that a child is studying they may or may not, learn about the history surrounding WWII.

I never made a blanket comment that it's everyone mind you, that there are children in Japan that dont know about it. To me at least it is an extremely important part of the history of Japan, everyone should learn about it at least to understand with more clarity the reasons why Japan curently has diplomatic problems with China, Korea and other countries in the region as well. Plus it would help give a better insight into why the American's have bases here in Japan as well.

I have seen and heard kids from Kyushu come here to Okinawa for their school trips and ask in all sincerity why are there bases here, and why was there a battle here. Their first introduction to the war was when they visited the Peace Memorial at Mabuni, and other locations as well. It was an eye opener.

If things keep on going as they are and people stop questioning the material used for education in schools the issues from WWII will stop being discussed and somewhere in the future, ...............heaven forbid that happens.

Rewriting History Again "Japan to Revise Books on WWII Suicides"

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