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Toritoribe

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What 私喧嘩したってこうと思うことはやって貰うんです。That she discusses with them because they behave like this?
She makes/forces them (= young teachers) do her ways.

Afterwards, she says that they might find her an awful woman, but when there is a "situation" with a child, she is the one who has to deal with it, right?
Right.

And is my understanding correct here?
「子供、もっと放っといてやらなけりゃ」You should let the kids do as they want
Yes.

「愛想のいい子供なんて拵えたって、下らなかないの」What would 下らなかない literally mean? "You can't bear the idea that I brought up a nice kid"?
As you know, 下らなかないの is a contraction of 下らなくはないの, meaning "isn't it worthless~?"
This line is Asako's words. Kubo uses polite words for Asako.
 

karenk

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As you know, 下らなかないの is a contraction of 下らなくはないの, meaning "isn't it worthless~?"
This line is Asako's words. Kubo uses polite words for Asako.
I see, so it would be more like: "What is the good of bringing up a nice/gentle kid?" Which would be more in line with her previous comment: "Let they do as they want", right?
 

karenk

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Hi, Tori, here, when Aihara talks, is he talking to Shirasugi, who is there, or talking about Shirasugi? It would be the former to me, something like: "Well, Shirasugi, you too should do something! He (Moroto) might give us some money." What would 一つ確りやって下さい mean? I understand that Shirasugi should do something in order to, maybe, get money from Moroto.

諸戸の処置を批評するようなことを云い、
「まあ、白杉さんも、一つ確りやって下さい。今にちょっと金も出せるようになるだろうから」
 

karenk

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Hi, what would the meaning of this 間には be? To me, it conveys the idea that Aihara's life appeared as the needle of a compass while she was remembering her encounter with Kubo. Or does it mean that the needle of a compass appeared amidst her reminicences of Kubo and Aihara's life?

 朝子は、会って来たばかりの久保のこと、相原の生活、間には、新しく磨きたての磁石の針のように活々と光り、敏く、自分の内心に存在すると感じるものについて考え、味い、長い夕方の電車に揺られて行った。

And I've translated 生存の尖端 as something like "existence's vanguard", do you have a different opinion?

 帰り途、朝子は人間の生存の尖端(ラ・ポアント・ド・ラ・ヴィ)というようなことを深く思った。道徳や常識、教養などその人を支える何の役にも立たない瞬間が人生にある。またそういう非常の時でないまでも、我等を取巻く常識や、道徳や、それ等の権威の失墜の間に生きて行くに、何が心のよりどころとなるであろう。何で人間が人間らしく生きて行く道をかぎ分けるかと云えば、それは、草木で云えば草木を伸び育てる大切な芽に等しい、人間の心の中にある生存の尖端によってだ。朝子は昨夜詩を読んだときにも、例えば、
 

Toritoribe

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when Aihara talks, is he talking to Shirasugi, who is there, or talking about Shirasugi? It would be the former to me, something like: "Well, Shirasugi, you too should do something! He (Moroto) might give us some money."
Yes, it's the former. You need to get that it's actually Asako's surname from their conversation, and you can confirm it from other scenes. (白杉 appears three times in the novel.) 金も出せるようになる means that Aihara would be able to give money to her company.

What would 一つ確りやって下さい mean?
It's something like "do your best".

what would the meaning of this 間には be?
She is thinking about the needle of a compass amidst her reminiscences of Kubo and Aihara's life.

I've translated 生存の尖端 as something like "existence's vanguard", do you have a different opinion?
Hmm, I can't think of a good translation of the word. She uses 草木を伸び育てる大切な芽 and 敏感な本源的な魂の触覚 to compare it. "Forefront" might be more neutral, and therefore could be more appropriate.
 

karenk

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Oh, and yes, the fact that Shirasugi is Asako's surname had completely skipped my mind, I took note of it the first time, and then forgot it, would probably notice my mistake only when I reread everything from beginning to end. Thank you for the reminder! 😅
 

karenk

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Well, I think that this is my last big existencial question about this text before rereading it I tying all the knots that are still loose. Asako repeats the phrase 大丈夫でなくて
も、大丈夫だと思っちゃった, when Sachiko asks her if she is okay. Is it simply "I'm okay even if I'm not"?
 

mdchachi

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Well, I think that this is my last big existencial question about this text before rereading it I tying all the knots that are still loose. Asako repeats the phrase 大丈夫でなくて
も、大丈夫だと思っちゃった, when Sachiko asks her if she is okay. Is it simply "I'm okay even if I'm not"?
Your skills are way beyond mine so I hesitate to say anything but why wouldn't it be "I thought I was ok even when I wasn't"
 

Toritoribe

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Asako repeats the phrase 大丈夫でなくて
も、大丈夫だと思っちゃった, when Sachiko asks her if she is okay. Is it simply "I'm okay even if I'm not"?
Yes.

why wouldn't it be "I thought I was ok even when I wasn't"
She actually is referring to her future thoughts here, something like "I must be OK even if I come across such a situation (as far as I have "la point de la vie" in my mind)".
 

karenk

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Your skills are way beyond mine so I hesitate to say anything but why wouldn't it be "I thought I was ok even when I wasn't"
I'm really far from having a great skill! I could study the language my whole life and still be lacking. But I enjoy learning and having the help of this forum and Tori's is really helpful because there are things that books can't teach.

She actually is referring to her future thoughts here, something like "I must be OK even if I come across such a situation (as far as I have "la point de la vie" in my mind)".
Yes, there would be a problem of logic and context if it were interpreted in the past. This text is/was hard, I wonder if this is the reason why there are so few works of hers translated into other languages.... She takes long turns or writes things that sound so peculiar to me to convey simple ideas!
 

karenk

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Hi, Tori! Does ぽっとさせて mean "blushing" here? I've found it as having this meaning, but "making her upper eyelids blush" sounds weird.

 茂都子が引とって朝子に答え、小皺のあるふっくりした上まぶたをぽっとさせて、
 

karenk

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Hi, does 落ち in the passage below mean that despite the fact that men and women are both worn out (by their jobs), women end up being considered more inexperienced and less of a person as men?

自分の職業なら職業が、人生のどんな部分へ、どんな工合に結びついているか、もう少し探究的でなけりゃ嘘なんじゃないのかしら。ただ給料がとれていればいい、厭んなったらその職業すてるだけだ。それじゃ、つまり女も男なみに擦れて、而も、彼等より不熟練で半人前だというのが落ちなんじゃないの」
 

Toritoribe

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Does ぽっとさせて mean "blushing" here? I've found it as having this meaning, but "making her upper eyelids blush" sounds weird.
I, too, think it's weird, but it indeed means so.

does 落ち in the passage below mean that despite the fact that men and women are both worn out (by their jobs), women end up being considered more inexperienced and less of a person as men?
Yes.
 

karenk

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Hi,

Does anyone know the difference between saying 幸子女史 (Ohira talking about Sachiko) and お幸さん (Asako talking about or directly to Sachiko). I would say that 幸子女史 could be translated as Miss Sachiko, but what about お幸さん?
 

Toritoribe

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お幸さん is more friendly, but also with respect. Something like "Sachi-san/Yuki-san" doesn't make much sense?

By the way, regarding the reading of お幸さん, おさちさん is not impossible, but おゆきさん or おこうさん is more familiar to my ears. こうこ is rare for 幸子, so ゆきこ might be the correct reading.
 

karenk

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お幸さん is more friendly, but also with respect. Something like "Sachi-san/Yuki-san" doesn't make much sense?

By the way, regarding the reading of お幸さん, おさちさん is not impossible, but おゆきさん or おこうさん is more familiar to my ears. こうこ is rare for 幸子, so ゆきこ might be the correct reading.
Hi, we don't have an equivalent to -san here and it is complicated to convey this nuance in my language... I think I will leave it as Sachi. The only translation of this text i've found is in Spanish, by the reviews I've read, the translators also used Sachiko. I've ordered the book because I'm curious about the solutions to some issues I'm still not satisfied with, hope it arrives until the end of this year, I was too cheap to pay for the express shipping. 😅 Thank you!
 

Toritoribe

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I think "-san" is somewhat known as a Japanese honorific title in English. The Oxford Dictionary has an entry of "-san", and we can hear that an announcer shouts "Big fly Ohtani-san!!" when Ohtani Shohei hits a home-run in Major League Baseball games live on TV. It's not so well-known in Portuguese?
 

karenk

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I think "-san" is somewhat known as a Japanese honorific title in English. The Oxford Dictionary has an entry of "-san", and we can hear that an announcer shouts "Big fly Ohtani-san!!" when Ohtani Shohei hits a home-run in Major League Baseball games live on TV. It's not so well-known in Portuguese?
Yes, "san" would be translated as "mr", "mrs", an honorific title in Portuguese as well and would not convey this sense of intimacy. Simply "Sachi", an abbreviation of her name, would work better. Sachiko uses "Asappe", which I think I will keep and add an explanation note because I find it cute.
 

karenk

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Hi, I stil have some doubts about this passage: 従兄の悲しさに、あんたも私も、どうもサディストの型(タイプ)に属するらしいね。アッペルバッハの新しい性格分類法で行くと。だから、マゾヒストの型で徳性の高い朝っぺさんにおって貰って調和よろしいという訳さ。私なんか、同じサディストでも、徳性が高いからいいけれど、この素介なんぞ

Sachiko says that due to her cousin's sadness, she and Asako seems to be sadists according to Apfelbach's method of personality classification. But then she explains that the presence of a sadist with a high moral standard like Asako is an harmonic factor. Is Asako then a sadist or a masochist according to Apfelbach´s method? And the harmony is related to her relationship with Ohira or to the three of them? And when Sachiko says 同じサディスト, is she saying that she is a sadist like her cousin?
 

Toritoribe

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Sachiko says that due to her cousin's sadness, she and Asako seems to be sadists according to Apfelbach's method of personality classification.
幸子 is talking to 大平, thus, あんた refers to 大平. She is saying "due to the sadness that we are cousins" by 従兄の悲しさに.

But then she explains that the presence of a sadist with a high moral standard like Asako is an harmonic factor. Is Asako then a sadist or a masochist according to Apfelbach´s method?
It's "the presence of a masochist with a high moral standard like Asako is an harmonic factor."

And the harmony is related to her relationship with Ohira or to the three of them?
The latter.

And when Sachiko says 同じサディスト, is she saying that she is a sadist like her cousin?
Yes.
 

karenk

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Thank you Tori, I was confused because I assumed that Ohira had gone away and Sachiko was talking to Asako, now it makes sense.
 

karenk

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Hi, have just found out that モウニング= morning coat! 😄

And is the meaning here literally "as wagging the morning's tail"?

 角を曲る急な動作でモウニングの尾を煽(あお)るようにしながら、左手を後へ振り、諸戸は、
「直ぐ! 直ぐだ」

Thanks!
 

karenk

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Here are some random questions: Is there a difference between calling someone ~さん or ~氏?

And why does some passages come between "― ― " like in " ― ―そうなんですか"? Does it indicate a pause or something else? Thanks!
 
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