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Miyamoto Yuriko

karenk

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女は内に means 女は(家の)内に(いるべきだ), i.e., Japanese traditional way of thinking.

Ok, that was my guess by the rest of passage.

I have to think about how to translate some of those passages and still make sense, there are some cultural differences I have to consider.

Since Ohira seems to be always hitting on Asako I suppose that 「――変りもん同士で、面白くやってゆけると思うんだがな……自由に……」 could be translated as "We are both weirdos, maybe we could have some fun (together)... No strings attached...", right?

And after Asako leaves the room, Sachiko says 「おや、いなかったの!」 could I translate it simply as "Hey, where are you?" instead of literally "Hey, aren't you there?"

Thank you! 
 

karenk

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Ok, let's see... Here:

 三時頃、庶務にいる男が、
「――諸戸さん、亀戸(かめいど)ですか」
と入って来た。
「さあ、知らないね」
「白杉さん、今朝お会いになりましたか」
「文部省へ行くとかってお話でしたよ」
「――文部省へ? 何かあるのかしら……」
 矢崎が、冷淡なような、根掘り葉掘りのような口調で聞き出した。
「どうしたんだね」
「新聞社から来たんですよ」
「××じゃないのかい?」
 団体に出入りする、諸戸の子分のような記者があるのであったが、その男が告げた名はその社ではなかった。
「へえ……」
 矢崎は、不精髯の短かく生えた口をとがらせ、考えていたが、
「呼んだのかい」
と云った。
「売り込みさ、――また、ここの資金をこっそり学校の方へ流用している事実があるとか何とか云って来たらしいんだ」
「誰が会ったんだ」
「鈴本さん――そんなこと絶対にないと思うって熱心にやってましたよ」

When Yazaki says 呼んだのかい, he asks the reporter if someone had contacted him, right?

Now, when he asks 誰が会ったんだ is he asking who has Moroto talked to/met?
 

karenk

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And is the meaning here literally "as wagging the morning's tail"?

 角を曲る急な動作でモウニングの尾を煽(あお)るようにしながら、左手を後へ振り、諸戸は、
「直ぐ! 直ぐだ」

Thanks!
 

Toritoribe

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Since Ohira seems to be always hitting on Asako I suppose that 「――変りもん同士で、面白くやってゆけると思うんだがな……自由に……」 could be translated as "We are both weirdos, maybe we could have some fun (together)... No strings attached...", right?

And after Asako leaves the room, Sachiko says 「おや、いなかったの!」 could I translate it simply as "Hey, where are you?" instead of literally "Hey, aren't you there?"
Yes and yes.

When Yazaki says 呼んだのかい, he asks the reporter if someone had contacted him, right?
Yazaki is asking 庶務にいる男 if someone called the reporter.
He is the one who said 新聞社から来たんですよ. I think this line confused you. 新聞社から(記者が)来たんですよ makes more sense, maybe?

Now, when he asks 誰が会ったんだ is he asking who has Moroto talked to/met?
He is asking who talked to the reporter.

is the meaning here literally "as wagging the morning's tail"?
Yes.
 

karenk

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Yazaki is asking 庶務にいる男 if someone called the reporter.
He is the one who said 新聞社から来たんですよ. I think this line confused you. 新聞社から(記者が)来たんですよ makes more sense, maybe?

Yes, thank you!

売り込み = in this dialogue means, that someone contacted the reporter to sell information/make a delation , right?
 
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karenk

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And:
その廊下の外に、一本の石榴(ざくろ)の木が生えていた。このような公共建築の空地に生えた木らしくいつも徒花(あだばな)ばかり散らしていた。珍しく、今年は、低い枝にたった一つ実を結んだ。その実は落ちもせず、僅かながら色づいて来た。がらんとした長廊下や、これから相原に会い、買収策でも講じるであろう諸戸の周章した後姿、風に動く草まで、総て秋蕭々と細長い中に、たった一つ石榴の実は円く重そうで、朝子に何か好もしい感じを与えた。

買収策でも講じる= means that Moroto will meet Aihara and try to bribe him (probably to keep his mouth shut about the money diversion), right?
 

karenk

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Hi, is there another meaning for 男女の生活 besides "the life of men and women" here?

朝子が、夫を失ったのは二十四のときであった。彼女は近頃になって、元知らなかった多くのことを、男女の生活について理解するようになった。彼女の中に、半開であった女性の花が咲いた。
 

karenk

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Here:

 然し、朝子は大平を愛しているのではなかった。彼のは、朝子が再び結婚を欲しない意味とは全然違う。ただ面倒くさい位の心持から、消極的自由を保っていることも判っていた。彼にすれば、悪い心持はせず一年余知り合った朝子が、ひとりで、自由で、ちょっと面白くなくもなさそうなのに不図心づき、何か恋心めいたものを感じたのであろう。

悪い心持はせず, is about Asako, right? She, who he has met about a year ago, is the one who is not unpleasant to him, right?

 朝子にとっても、ぼんやり幸子の従兄(あに)として見ていた大平が、一人の男としてはっきり現われた点は同じであった。けれども、細かく心持を追ってゆくと、朝子にとって魅力あるのは大平という人自身ではなかった。大平があの夜以来、朝子の心の内にかき立てた感覚が、朝子を牽っぱるのであった。

Does はっきり現われた点は同じ means that she clearly sees Ohira as a man the same way as he sees her as a woman in the precedent passage?
 

Toritoribe

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Hi, is there another meaning for 男女の生活 besides "the life of men and women" here?
It's used in a meaning of "the life of (man and woman)", i.e., the life of a pair. As you can see in the following parts of this novel, this word has a sexual nuance here.

悪い心持はせず, is about Asako, right? She, who he has met about a year ago, is the one who is not unpleasant to him, right?
No, it's opposite. He is not unpleasant to her. 彼にすれば covers the whole sentence, thus, it expresses his feelings (to be more precise, Asako's interpretation about his feelings). Asako is the subject of ひとりで、自由で、ちょっと面白くなくもなさそう, and he is the subject of 不図心づき、何か恋心めいたものを感じた.

Does はっきり現われた点は同じ means that she clearly sees Ohira as a man the same way as he sees her as a woman in the precedent passage?
Right.
 

karenk

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No, it's opposite. He is not unpleasant to her. 彼にすれば covers the whole sentence, thus, it expresses his feelings (to be more precise, Asako's interpretation about his feelings). Asako is the subject of ひとりで、自由で、ちょっと面白くなくもなさそう, and he is the subject of 不図心づき、何か恋心めいたものを感じた.
That was exactly my doubt, thank you!
 

karenk

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So, Tori, as a Japanese, what is your opinion about this text of Miyamoto Yuriko? I always think that the author that I'm translating at the moment is the most challenging... 😅 But I find this text in particular quite truncated, economic in words and a bit dry. I have to pay a lot of attention not to miss who is speaking or being spoken about. She is not poetic as Yosano Akiko as well. Maybe I will enjoy her essays more... Is there a short text of hers that you could recommend me to translate? Thanks!
 

Toritoribe

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She seems to create real conversations used in that era, not the ones to explain the story effectively (i.e., the ones that could be therefore sometimes artificial).

Actually, this is the first time I read her works. I think it's interesting that she tried to express characters' thinking and manners, which would be common in that era.
 

karenk

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Hi,

Did Asako really say "dark moment" in English in this passage?

 朝子は、涙をこぼしながら、切れ切れに、
「暗い瞬間(ダアク・モウメント)!――暗い瞬間!」
と囁いた。
 

karenk

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Hi, below, is Tokiko saying that she came to the station to represent her mother? I gather that there was someone notable taking the train and she probably came to see this person off, is that so?

朝子と、同級の中では親しい部の富貴子であった。
「来てらしたの? この汽車?」
 富貴子は、ずば抜けて背の高い肩の間へ、首をちぢめるような恰好をした。
母の名代を仰せ付かっちゃったの
 

Toritoribe

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Did Asako really say "dark moment" in English in this passage?
Yes.

is Tokiko saying that she came to the station to represent her mother? I gather that there was someone notable taking the train and she probably came to see this person off, is that so?
The reading of 富貴子 could be Fukiko.

My initial impression was that 富貴子 rode the train and got off at the station by 来てらしたの? この汽車?, but it's a sleeper train, so your interpretation "富貴子 came to see a person off instead of her(= 富貴子's) mother" seems correct.
 

karenk

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Yes.


The reading of 富貴子 could be Fukiko.

My initial impression was that 富貴子 rode the train and got off at the station by 来てらしたの? この汽車?, but it's a sleeper train, so your interpretation "富貴子 came to see a person off instead of her(= 富貴子's) mother" seems correct.
Yes, I saw that Fukiko was also a possibility. How do I know which reading to choose when the author doesn't give a clue about it? Is there a way to know or a reliable source I can consult to see which reading is more widespread?
 
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karenk

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Could you please confirm if my understanding of this passage is correct?

 二人は、珈琲(コーヒー)を飲みによった。友達の噂のまま、
「結局一番いいのは、あなたなのよ、朝子さん」Fukiko/Tokiko says that Asako got the better from life, compared to her former colleagues, because she is not married anymore
 断定を下すように富貴子が云った。
「私みたいに一時預け、全く閉口。預ってる手前っていうわけか、いやに遠廻しの監視つきなんですもの」
「それも、もう十月の辛抱でしょう!」Here I think that she is refering to the fact that her husband is abroad and left her with her family and she had no say about it, and being with her family in a sense is like being under surveillance, what is the meaning of 手前 here? Is she refering to herself?
 顎をひき、上眼を使うようにして合点したが、富貴子は急に顔を耀かせ、
「そりゃそうと、あなたの方、どうなのよその後」I suppose that Tokiko is asking about how Asako's love life after her husband died
と云った。
「何が」
「いやなひと! 相変らず?」
「相変らずよ」
「――うそ!」
「どうして? 私はあなたと違って正直に生れついているのよ」What does Asako mean by 生れついている? That she is ok being alone, "she was born this way/that is part of her nature", or is she refering to the fact that she is living with Sachiko/having a relationship with her?
「だって……ああ、じゃあ、そうなの、やっぱりあなたは偉いわね」
 およそその意味が想像され、朝子はぼんやり苦笑を浮べた。すると、云った方の当人が、今度はそれを感違いし、意外らしく、胸まで卓子(テーブル)の上へのり出して、逆に、
「――そう?――大道無門?」Ok, found this term as "there is not a "determined" way to enter/follow the right way/buddhism, is it an euphemism for Asako's sex life?
と小声で念を押しなおした。
 朝子はそうなると、なお笑うだけで、パイをたべていたが、
「モダンだって幾通りもあるんじゃないの――少し話は違うけれど」
と云った。
 

Toritoribe

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How do I know which reading to choose when the author doesn't give a clue about it? Is there a way to know or a reliable source I can consult to see which reading is more widespread?
Unfortunately, I don't know those kinds of sources. The most common reading could change depending on the era. Readers might be able to get which was more common, Fukiko or Tokiko, in the era.
Anyway, there is not the "correct" reading, so you can choose the one you like, in my opinion.

「結局一番いいのは、あなたなのよ、朝子さん」Fukiko/Tokiko says that Asako got the better from life, compared to her former colleagues, because she is not married anymore
Yes.

「私みたいに一時預け、全く閉口。預ってる手前っていうわけか、いやに遠廻しの監視つきなんですもの」
「それも、もう十月の辛抱でしょう!」Here I think that she is refering to the fact that her husband is abroad and left her with her family and she had no say about it, and being with her family in a sense is like being under surveillance, what is the meaning of 手前 here? Is she refering to herself?
閉口する means "to be nonplussed/be annoyed".

手前 means "out of regard for ~" here.
out of regard for their(= her family's) taking care of her and her children = since they are taking care of her and her children

「そりゃそうと、あなたの方、どうなのよその後」I suppose that Tokiko is asking about how Asako's love life after her husband died
Right.

「どうして? 私はあなたと違って正直に生れついているのよ」What does Asako mean by 生れついている? That she is ok being alone, "she was born this way/that is part of her nature", or is she refering to the fact that she is living with Sachiko/having a relationship with her?
正直に生れついている means "to be honest/truthful by nature". 生まれつき正直 makes more sense, perhaps?

「――そう?――大道無門?」Ok, found this term as "there is not a "determined" way to enter/follow the right way/buddhism, is it an euphemism for Asako's sex life?
Yes. 富貴子 misunderstood that Asako was already "enlightened".
 

karenk

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Hi, how do you interpret 自己消耗? As "ego dissolution/death"? I've found 消耗 as deplete/use up

My understandig is that some people find satisfaction in "dissolving the ego" individually, sometimes with fanfarre, sometimes with bitterness and, on the other side, there is modern society where this depletion has become more widespread/commom, being transmitted from one person to another, because people need something they can hold on to firmly or because they need do devise something that has a newness to it. Is it something more or less so?

What would the exactly meaning of 徹えてやり切れず (be uneable to bear the feeling of depletion?) and やり切れながっている (be uneable not to devise something new)? The reasoning of this passage lost me.

全く、個人的に自己消耗だけ華々しく或は苦々しくやって満足している部と、それが一人から一人へ伝わり、或る程度まで一般となった現代の消耗が身に徹(こた)えて徹えてやり切れず、何か確乎とした、何か新しいものを見出さなくてはやり切れながっている人たちもきっとある。朝子は自分の苦痛として、それを感じているのであった。後者に属する人は、強烈な消耗と同時に新生の可能の故に、自分を包括する。更にひろい人間は、群を忘れることが出来ない。例え、それに対して自分は無力であろうとも忘れることは出来ない。
 
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karenk

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And, does 色彩ではたくように means that the group of people that entered into the cafe (women I guess) was so colorful that it "hit" the box where the two of them were seated? Or is it literal, they actually hit the box with ther "lively behavior/colors"? Does this description hint at something about these people?

 彼女等のいるボックスを、色彩ではたくようにして入って来た若い一団に気をとられ、富貴子はうっかり答えたが、
「おや、もうあんな時間?」
 

Toritoribe

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Hi, how do you interpret 自己消耗? As "ego dissolution/death"? I've found 消耗 as deplete/use up
自己 is more likely "oneself" than "ego", so 自己消耗 means "to use oneself up".

My understandig is that some people find satisfaction in "dissolving the ego" individually, sometimes with fanfarre, sometimes with bitterness and, on the other side, there is modern society where this depletion has become more widespread/commom, being transmitted from one person to another, because people need something they can hold on to firmly or because they need do devise something that has a newness to it. Is it something more or less so?

What would the exactly meaning of 徹えてやり切れず (be uneable to bear the feeling of depletion?) and やり切れながっている (be uneable not to devise something new)? The reasoning of this passage lost me.
I think it's talking about "Times have changed" 大平 mentioned previously, but, to tell the truth, I, either, don't get what that passage expresses exactly. It might be more understandable in the era.
You got the meaning correctly, so it's better to translate it literally, I think.

does 色彩ではたくように means that the group of people that entered into the cafe (women I guess) was so colorful that it "hit" the box where the two of them were seated? Or is it literal, they actually hit the box with ther "lively behavior/colors"?
It would be the former.

Does this description hint at something about these people?
Probably it expresses the splendor and youthfulness of the group.
 

karenk

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I think it's talking about "Times have changed" 大平 mentioned previously, but, to tell the truth, I, either, don't get what that passage expresses exactly. It might be more understandable in the era.
You got the meaning correctly, so it's better to translate it literally, I think.
Thank you, Tori!

This passage made me sweat! I hope I find a way to make it easier to digest.

In the passage below, Kubo is saying that the teachers are young and are okay just letting the children play until four o'clock, and the the children like them. What 私喧嘩したってこうと思うことはやって貰うんです。That she discusses with them because they behave like this? Afterwards, she says that they might find her an awful woman, but when there is a "situation" with a child, she is the one who has to deal with it, right?

「みんな若い人達ばかりで、ただおとなしく四時まで遊ばしときさえすればいいと思ってるんだから。――そんな人の方が、またお気に入るんですからね。私喧嘩したってこうと思うことはやって貰うんです。いやな女だと思っているだろうけど、いざ子供を動かすとなると、どうしたって、そりゃ、私でなければならないことが起って来るんですからね」

And is my understanding correct here?
「子供、もっと放っといてやらなけりゃ」You should let the kids do as they want
と云った。
「愛想のいい子供なんて拵えたって、下らなかないの」What would 下らなかない literally mean? "You can't bear the idea that I brought up a nice kid"?
 
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