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Miyamoto Yuriko

karenk

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諦める means "to resign to/accept the situation" there.

Sachiko and Ohira are cousins then? Or is it a reference to the way they behave with each other?

And here:
大平はそれに答えず、幸子が心理学を教えている女子大学の噂など始めた。二年ばかり前、彼の妻は彼の許を去った。初めの愛人が、今は彼女と暮している模様だ。大平は三十六であった。

"Without answering, Ohira started to gossip about the university where Sachiko teached psychology. His wife left him two years before. His first love was now living with her (Sachiko). Ohira was 36 years old."

Does it mean that Asako was the first love of Ohira?
 

Toritoribe

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Sachiko and Ohira are cousins then? Or is it a reference to the way they behave with each other?
They are really cousins. The author explains their relation naturally via their conversation.

And here:
大平はそれに答えず、幸子が心理学を教えている女子大学の噂など始めた。二年ばかり前、彼の妻は彼の許を去った。初めの愛人が、今は彼女と暮している模様だ。大平は三十六であった。

"Without answering, Ohira started to gossip about the university where Sachiko teached psychology. His wife left him two years before. His first love was now living with her (Sachiko). Ohira was 36 years old."

Does it mean that Asako was the first love of Ohira?
彼の妻の初めの愛人が makes sense? 彼女 refers to his wife.
 

karenk

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Hi,

「念を押すところが未だしも愛すべきですね。『姦(かしま)し』に一つ足りないなんてもの、まあこちらから願い下げだ」

Did I understand it right?: "You are lovely pointing that out to me! If there were one woman more, it would be boisterous, well, I'm the one who refuse (to have you as neighbors)."

Ohira is playing with the kanji 姦, right? Thank you!
 

karenk

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Hi! Please which are the components of: 川島の奴……叱られちまやがった?

Is it simply: That, fellow, Kawashima... he was scolded? Or does やがる alter the meaning to "he is bitter about having being scolded"?

Thanks!
 

Toritoribe

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It's the former. Only the imperative form やがれ can have the latter meaning.
Incidentally, ~ちまやがる is a contraction of ~てしまいやがる, as you must know, but this is obsolete. ~ちまやがる is used now.
 

karenk

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Hi, Tori!

Does 帷幄 have a particular meaning in this context? For what I gather, it means that a woman who was active in the stablished Meiji government was made chairman of this women's group, right? Does 女流 means that she was an intellectual?

団体は解散せず明治時代帷幄(いあく)政治で名のあった女流を会長にしたりして、次第に社会事業など企てて来た。
 
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karenk

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Hi, in this passage:
「それじゃ、つまり、いくらでも払える人に、やすいお仕立物どころをこしらえて上げてるわけね。裁縫学校じゃない、内職なんだから、もう少しどうにかするのが本当ですよ」
 朝子は、初めの時分、そんなことも云ったが、永年そこで働いている園子は、女学校長のように笑いながら、
「そんなこと云っちゃ、何も出来ませんですよ。これだってないより増しなんですから」
と、とり合わなかった。社会事業全般、ないより増しの標準でされているらしかった。

Asako is critising the fact that the social work they are doing is like offering a cheap tailor service for people who could pay much more and suggest that wages should be raised. Sonoko then dismisses her idea saying that there is nothing to be done about that. My question is about the 増し . Does it mean "it is better thant nothing" in both instances? 社会事業全般、ないより増しの標準でされているらしかった "Their social work system was stablished on the premise that it was better that it existed than that it doesn't", is it something like that?
 

Toritoribe

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Does 帷幄 have a particular meaning in this context? For what I gather, it means that a woman who was active in the stablished Meiji government was made chairman of this women's group, right? Does 女流 means that she was an intellectual?

団体は解散せず明治時代帷幄(いあく)政治で名のあった女流を会長にしたりして、次第に社会事業など企てて来た。
I've never heard 帷幄政治. Google search results only refer to this novel (and its Chinese translation). 女流 just means "woman" there, but I think your interpretation is mostly correct.

My question is about the 増し . Does it mean "it is better thant nothing" in both instances? 社会事業全般、ないより増しの標準でされているらしかった "Their social work system was stablished on the premise that it was better that it existed than that it doesn't", is it something like that?
Yes and yes.
 

karenk

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I've never heard 帷幄政治. Google search results only refer to this novel (and its Chinese translation). 女流 just means "woman" there, but I think your interpretation is mostly correct.

Yes, I couldn't find much either.

Now, could you help me understand this passage?

 諸戸は、女房子供を国許に置き、一人東京で家を持っていた。まるで一人暮しなのに、家の小綺麗なことは評判であった。現在彼等で経営主任のようなことをしている、そして将来彼のものになるだろう或る女学校長とは特別な関係で、半ば公然の秘密であったが、諸戸は近来、働き会の方の河合という女といきさつがあった、もう一人そう云う人が働き会の中にある。そんな状態であった

I'm confused whom each sentence might be refering to. Is 彼等で refering to Moroto? He is the one who has a special relationship with a women's school director who works with him in the management? Is this director the woman named Kawai? Or is this director a man who also has a relationship with Kawai or someone else in the work group? Whom 将来彼のものになるだろう is refering to? Does it has a sexual implication, like "she will be his in the future"? The only thing that is clear to me here is that Moroto recently has a not so secret relationship with a woman called Kawai from the work group, the rest is quite confusing to me. Does もう一人そう云う人が働き会の中にある mean that there is someone else who behaves like Moroto? Well, I'm lost here...
 

Toritoribe

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女学校長, 河合 and もう一人そう云う人 are three different women.
彼等 refers to 諸戸 and 女学校長.
特別な関係 suggests that they already have a sexual relationship.
My first impression is that 将来彼のものになるだろう或る女学校長 actually means that 将来彼のものになるだろう或る女学校の校長, thus, he will acquire the school, not the woman, but it's also possible to interpret that he has an intention to marry her in the future by 将来彼のものになる (after he divorced his wife, probably).
 

karenk

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女学校長, 河合 and もう一人そう云う人 are three different women.
彼等 refers to 諸戸 and 女学校長.
特別な関係 suggests that they already have a sexual relationship.
My first impression is that 将来彼のものになるだろう或る女学校長 actually means that 将来彼のものになるだろう或る女学校の校長, thus, he will acquire the school, not the woman, but it's also possible to interpret that he has an intention to marry her in the future by 将来彼のものになる (after he divorced his wife, probably).

In a word, he is a womanizer... I will think about how to translate that. Thank you!
 

karenk

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Hi, could I translate: 相原氏の方があれでましでしょう as "Aihara, that's someone to look up for/bigger man (compared to Moroto)"? And has ころがり込んでいるうち the sense that Aihara got in charge of the work settlements when they started and now had became a man with an important role because of that?

 多分、相原の口添えで、川島を罷めさせることは中止になったらしいと云うことだった。相原は、諸戸と同郷で、ころがり込んでいるうち、府下のセットルメント・ワークを任され、今では一方の主になっている男であった。伊田と川島は異口同音に、
「――相原氏の方があれでましでしょう」
と云った。
「男らしい点だけでもましじゃないですか」
 
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karenk

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I think that I got the sense of ころがり込んでいるうち , it means that Aihara was not in a good situation and Moroto put him in charge of the work settlements making him a man with a important position/role, right?
 

karenk

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Hi, how would you translate まいてやる in this dialogue:
「なあにいいさ! 本読ましとけ。――心配させるのも面白いや」(What?! Let her read her book. It is good to make her worry!)
「――ここにいりゃ何でもないのに」(Here I'm in doubt, I think that it would be something in the sense that they are doing nothing she would have to worry about, thougths?)
「いたら、まいてやる」 (If she were....)
 

Toritoribe

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Hi, could I translate: 相原氏の方があれでましでしょう as "Aihara, that's someone to look up for/bigger man (compared to Moroto)"? And has ころがり込んでいるうち the sense that Aihara got in charge of the work settlements when they started and now had became a man with an important role because of that?

 多分、相原の口添えで、川島を罷めさせることは中止になったらしいと云うことだった。相原は、諸戸と同郷で、ころがり込んでいるうち、府下のセットルメント・ワークを任され、今では一方の主になっている男であった。伊田と川島は異口同音に、
「――相原氏の方があれでましでしょう」
と云った。
「男らしい点だけでもましじゃないですか」
ころがり込む means something like "came to the organization without any promise" there.

Hi, how would you translate まいてやる in this dialogue:
It's 撒く "to slip away from her".

「――ここにいりゃ何でもないのに」(Here I'm in doubt, I think that it would be something in the sense that they are doing nothing she would have to worry about, thougths?)
It means "she wouldn't need to worry about Asako".
 

karenk

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Hi, Tori!


It's 撒く "to slip away from her".

Ok, so Ohira is saying that if she were with them, they could slip away from her, right?

So when Ohira says to Sachiko: 君が案じるって、敢然と僕の誘惑を拒けたよ, is he saying that Asako said that she (Sachiko) would be worried and this way she resisted/rejected his "advances"?

And still further, Sachiko says: そうさ、素介という男はそういう男なの、どうせ。 I understood that the kanji reading for Motosuke, could mean "selfish", is that so? Or is just implying that her cousin is just this kind of man (someone who can't be trusted)?
 

karenk

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Miyamoto is not an easy read, dialogues are hard...

「従兄の悲しさに、あんたも私も、どうもサディストの型(タイプ)に属するらしいね。アッペルバッハの新しい性格分類法で行くと。だから、マゾヒストの型で徳性の高い朝っぺさんにおって貰って調和よろしいという訳さ。私なんか、同じサディストでも、徳性が高いからいいけれど、この素介なんぞ――」

Sachiko is saying that Asako is masoquist with a virtuous character/has a high moral standard so her personality is well balanced, right? What would the meaning of おって貰って be? Then Sachiko says that she is a sadist (like Ohira?), but is also virtuous, which is good, contrary to her cousin...


「――君に解ってたまるもんか。――第一そのアッペル何とかいうの、ドイツの男だろう? ドイツ人の頭がいいか悪いかは疑問だな。フランス人の警句一つを、ドイツ人は三百頁の本にする。そいだけ書かないじゃ、当人にも呑込めないんじゃないかな」
頭のよしあしじゃない、向きの違いさ

君に解ってたまるもんか = How can you know that?/ And is that something you can know?

頭のよしあしじゃない、向きの違いさ What would the meaning of 向き mean here? "It is not a matter of being inteligent or not, it is a difference in "preference"? (Asako says that the germans need to write pages and pages about a subject in order to grasp it and Sachiko explains that the germans have to write a lot about a subject because that would be their preference/tendency?
 

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Ok, so Ohira is saying that if she were with them, they could slip away from her, right?

So when Ohira says to Sachiko: 君が案じるって、敢然と僕の誘惑を拒けたよ, is he saying that Asako said that she (Sachiko) would be worried and this way she resisted/rejected his "advances"?
Yes and yes.

And still further, Sachiko says: そうさ、素介という男はそういう男なの、どうせ。 I understood that the kanji reading for Motosuke, could mean "selfish", is that so? Or is just implying that her cousin is just this kind of man (someone who can't be trusted)?
素介 is 大平's given name.

「従兄の悲しさに、あんたも私も、どうもサディストの型(タイプ)に属するらしいね。アッペルバッハの新しい性格分類法で行くと。だから、マゾヒストの型で徳性の高い朝っぺさんにおって貰って調和よろしいという訳さ。私なんか、同じサディストでも、徳性が高いからいいけれど、この素介なんぞ――」

Sachiko is saying that Asako is masoquist with a virtuous character/has a high moral standard so her personality is well balanced, right? What would the meaning of おって貰って be? Then Sachiko says that she is a sadist (like Ohira?), but is also virtuous, which is good, contrary to her cousin...
おる is a dialectal form of いる, thus, he says that they are well balanced because Asako is here.

君に解ってたまるもんか = How can you know that?/ And is that something you can know?
You can't know/understand that.

頭のよしあしじゃない、向きの違いさ What would the meaning of 向き mean here? "It is not a matter of being inteligent or not, it is a difference in "preference"? (Asako says that the germans need to write pages and pages about a subject in order to grasp it and Sachiko explains that the germans have to write a lot about a subject because that would be their preference/tendency?
Yes.
 

karenk

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素介 is 大平's given name.

Ok, she is just saying that her cousin Motosuke is that kind of man, not playing with the meaning of the ideograms of his name.

More text understanding questions 😩:

「ひどい不景気だから、きっといい口なんぞありませんよ。あったにしろ、そんな口にはあなたがたより、もっと、今日生きるに必要な男が飛びついています」

Sachiko is saying that the recession is terrible, there are no good job opportunities, and even if they existed, the girl couldn't count on them, because there would be more eager men jumping upon them, right?

 不得要領で二人が帰った。窓際へ椅子を運び、雑誌を繰りながらそれ等の会話をきいていた大平が、体ごと椅子をこちらへ向け、
「ふうわりしたもんだな」

Is Ohira saying that the girls were quite vague/not serious about what they wanted?

 好意と意外さとをこめて、呟いた。
「会社に働いている連中も、ああいう娘さん達のワン・オブ・ゼムか」
「簿記や算盤が達者なだけ増しかもしれない」= "It might be better to be good at accounting and calculation" (For the job market)
「然し、変ったもんだなあ」= "Times have changed" ?


「同じ判こをついて廻す帳面でも、中に、例えばまあ、あさ子なんて小さい印があるとちょっと悪くないな」
I gather that Ohira is saying that it would not be bad to see Asako's little signature inside a notebook/account book, but what does 同じ判こをついて廻す帳面でも mean here?

 幾分照れ、朝子は、
「じゃ、私女学校の先生に世話して上げるわ」
She is saying that she would take care of the teachers of a women's school. But I couldn't figure out how it is related to what is said above...
と云った。


「そうしたら、右も左もボンヌ・ファム(美人)ばかりよ」
Bonne Femme
 大平は、直ぐそれをもじって、皮肉に、
ボーン・ファーム(骨ごわ)?」
Bone firm? This word playing is weird.

と訊き返した。
 
 

Toritoribe

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「ひどい不景気だから、きっといい口なんぞありませんよ。あったにしろ、そんな口にはあなたがたより、もっと、今日生きるに必要な男が飛びついています」

Sachiko is saying that the recession is terrible, there are no good job opportunities, and even if they existed, the girl couldn't count on them, because there would be more eager men jumping upon them, right?
Right.

「ふうわりしたもんだな」

Is Ohira saying that the girls were quite vague/not serious about what they wanted?
Yes.

「簿記や算盤が達者なだけ増しかもしれない」= "It might be better to be good at accounting and calculation" (For the job market)
The subject of 増し is 会社に働いている連中, thus, workers might be better than the girls since they(= workers) are good at accounting and calculation.

「然し、変ったもんだなあ」= "Times have changed" ?
Yes, you got it right.

「同じ判こをついて廻す帳面でも、中に、例えばまあ、あさ子なんて小さい印があるとちょっと悪くないな」
I gather that Ohira is saying that it would not be bad to see Asako's little signature inside a notebook/account book, but what does 同じ判こをついて廻す帳面でも mean here?
As you might know, there is a business custom of putting hanko/seal on paper documents to show "confirmed" in Japan.
inkan.jpg

廻す means "to pass the document to the higher position".

He says that even though documents/account books are the same, it wouldn't be bad to see Asako's seal on it (comparing to a case where there is not Asako's seal).

 幾分照れ、朝子は、
「じゃ、私女学校の先生に世話して上げるわ」
She is saying that she would take care of the teachers of a women's school. But I couldn't figure out how it is related to what is said above...
と云った。
世話する means "to procure employment for him" here.

「そうしたら、右も左もボンヌ・ファム(美人)ばかりよ」
Bonne Femme
 大平は、直ぐそれをもじって、皮肉に、
ボーン・ファーム(骨ごわ)?」
Bone firm? This word playing is weird.

と訊き返した。
He is saying that the girls/people around him might be the ones whose bones are firm/hard, not "bonne femme".
 

karenk

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As you might know, there is a business custom of putting hanko/seal on paper documents to show "confirmed" in Japan.
View attachment 32881

廻す means "to pass the document to the higher position".

He says that even though documents/account books are the same, it wouldn't be bad to see Asako's seal on it (comparing to a case where there is not Asako's seal).

Ok, then he is implying that it wouldn't be bad to see Asako having a higher position in the enterprise echelon, something in this sense?

世話する means "to procure employment for him" here.

But why for him? Because he would be able to see Asako's signature in the documents passed around?

He is saying that the girls/people around him might be the ones whose bones are firm/hard, not "bonne femme".

"bonne femme" seems to be the French term used by Asako, which was translated as "beautiful women", but then Ohira plays with the words and it becomes "bone firm" or "hard bone", that was my interpretation. Is it too off?
 

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Hi, Tori, thank you for bearing with me, here:

女性文化なんてことは、そこが出発点だね」
 大平が言葉を挾んだ。
「然しね」幸子が寧ろ大平に向って云った。
「女性文化必ずしも、女は内にを意味しやしないからね。――あなたも知ってる、ほら日野、東北大学のあのひとの奥さん、もう直き立派な女弁護士ですよ」
「変てこな表現だけど」
 ちょっと笑い、朝子が、
「私のは、超女性文化主義よ」
と云った。

Does 女性文化 is the same as "feminist culture" or does it mean just "women's culture"? I'm not certain about the terms used to express the concept of feminism in Japan at the time.

女性文化必ずしも、女は内にを意味しやしないからね.
Is Sachiko explaining that, despite the term "women's culture" it doesn't necessarily mean that that there are women involved in it?


「私、何、働いて食っているぞって、実はちょっと得意でなくもなかったんだけれど、どうも怪しくなって来たわ、この頃。今に私が本当に自分の雑誌創ったら、大平さん読者になって頂戴」
 これは実際問題として、朝子の心に育ちかけていることなのであった。

得意でなくもなかったんだけれど = "in fact it was not that bad to work to sustain myself"? The two negatives made me wonder if my interpretation was correct.

 大平が云った。
「あなた、本当にまた細君になる気持はないんですか」
「あなたはいかが?」
「ふーむ」
 大平はうなって、然しはっきり云った。
「ないな」
 よほど間を置いて、
「それが、だが自然なんだろうな、一方から云えば

With 一方から云えば, does Ohira is saying that, from his point of view, it is natural not to want to marry again?
 

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Ok, then he is implying that it wouldn't be bad to see Asako having a higher position in the enterprise echelon, something in this sense?
It's more simple. He is just saying that it's not bad to see Asako's seal on those documents.

But why for him? Because he would be able to see Asako's signature in the documents passed around?
Asako's intention is that if he likes to see a woman's/girl's seal, in other words, if he likes environment where there are women/girls, he should become a teacher of a girls school. Then, there would be many "bonnes femmes" around him.
Asako of course already realized his intention "he likes her", but intentionally changes it to "he likes environment where there are women/girls".

"bonne femme" seems to be the French term used by Asako, which was translated as "beautiful women", but then Ohira plays with the words and it becomes "bone firm" or "hard bone", that was my interpretation. Is it too off?
Your interpretation is correct.

Does 女性文化 is the same as "feminist culture" or does it mean just "women's culture"? I'm not certain about the terms used to express the concept of feminism in Japan at the time.
It's the latter. Feminism is more likely 女権拡張家 in their conversation.

女性文化必ずしも、女は内にを意味しやしないからね.
Is Sachiko explaining that, despite the term "women's culture" it doesn't necessarily mean that that there are women involved in it?
女は内に means 女は(家の)内に(いるべきだ), i.e., Japanese traditional way of thinking.

得意でなくもなかったんだけれど = "in fact it was not that bad to work to sustain myself"? The two negatives made me wonder if my interpretation was correct.
得意 means "to feel proud of it" here, thus, she felt proud of her situation.
Double negative shows affirmative, of course, so 得意でなくもなかった is almost the same as 得意だった in meaning.

With 一方から云えば, does Ohira is saying that, from his point of view, it is natural not to want to marry again?
It's "from another point of view".
 
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