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Toritoribe

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ここ is not used to refer to a person. It's 料理屋. The speaker uses prosopopoeia there.
 

karenk

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Hi again, when you see numbers written as follow: サークルの女工さん達は七八人だが職場の都合で夜七時頃にしか集れないという話であった。Would you said that there are 7 or 8 people or 78 people?
 

mdchachi

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Hi again, when you see numbers written as follow: サークルの女工さん達は七八人だが職場の都合で夜七時頃にしか集れないという話であった。Would you said that there are 7 or 8 people or 78 people?
I think I can answer this one. Just based on my experiences with every day conversation, it means "7 or 8 people."
 
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karenk

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Hi, I have too different questions:

1. When you read a passage like this: 婆さんが出てから振返って見ると、朱塗りの丸盆の上に椀と飯茶碗と香物がのせられ、箱火鉢の傍の畳に直(じか)に置いてあった。陽子は立って行って盆を木箱の上にのせた。上り端の四畳の彼方に三畳の小間がある。そこが夫婦の寝起きの場所で夕飯が始まったらしい。Would you translate 上り端の四畳の彼方に三畳の小間がある in the past tense or in the present? I think that passages with descriptions with verbs in the infinitive がある/である can be translated in the past depending on the context, but is it so?

2. ステーションにサークルの世話役の人が出迎えてくれ、牛肉屋をやっている○○君の店へ行ったら、そこは下諏訪警察の近くだし、「ここじゃあないよ.
Is 牛肉屋 a restaurant that serves meat or a butcher shop? And does やっている○○君 mean that this person (probably a woman) work there or that she owns it?
 

Toritoribe

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1)
It's historical present/narrative present used in narrative parts of novels.


2)
Is 牛肉屋 a restaurant that serves meat or a butcher shop?
It's the former.

And does やっている○○君 mean that this person (probably a woman) work there or that she owns it?
Hmm, usually it's the latter, but the former is also possible since ○○君の店 can mean "the shop/restaurant ○○君 is working in." In this case, it's interpreted that 牛肉屋をやっている modifies 店.
 

karenk

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How should I intepreted 今年はひどいね、養成工は十五銭になるやならずだからね, 養成工 are apprentices who work at the mills, なるやならず is a little confusing to me, does it mean that they should produce about 15 cents worth of work or that they barely receive this amount?
 

bentenmusume

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なるやならず just essentially means 十五銭になるかならないか(ぐらい), or barely/about that amount. Whether the author is saying the former or the latter would have to be inferred from context, and given that the entire previous paragraph (quoted below) is about exploitative employment practices which result in the women getting paid far less than they're actually owed/contracted for, it's almost certainly the latter interpretation.

一九三二年の春・宮本百合子 said:
「奴等はなかなかうまく考えていますからね、女工さんたちに、毎月現金で賃銀を全部わたすようなことは決してやらない。帳面を一人一人に渡しておいて、字面で書き込むだけ。小遣いは五十銭、一円とかり出しの形式にしておくんです。何ヵ月か働いた賃銀は、勧誘員が女工さんたちをつれて村へかえった時、帳面と合わせて親に渡す。ですから、実質的な賃銀不払いが雑作なく出来るんです。その時になって見るまでわからないし、いよいよ不払いとわかって腹を立ててもとうに工場からは出て、ちりぢりになっているからストライキも出来ない。来年働けば、貰えると思って、ずるずるにまた契約をするというわけです。――今年はひどいね、養成工は十五銭になるやならずだからね」
Talking about how the factories take advantage of women and then closing with "This year is especially terrible, they barely received 15 sen" follows as a logical thought.", while "...they should produce/they've barely produced this much" doesn't, really.
 

karenk

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なるやならず just essentially means 十五銭になるかならないか(ぐらい), or barely/about that amount. Whether the author is saying the former or the latter would have to be inferred from context, and given that the entire previous paragraph (quoted below) is about exploitative employment practices which result in the women getting paid far less than they're actually owed/contracted for, it's almost certainly the latter interpretation.


Talking about how the factories take advantage of women and then closing with "This year is especially terrible, they barely received 15 sen" follows as a logical thought.", while "...they should produce/they've barely produced this much" doesn't, really.
Thank you, yes, it makes sense!
 

Toritoribe

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As bentenmusume-san explained, it's the latter since they are talking about how badly women workers are treated.

は is confusing, and at the same time it's convenient in a sense. The context is the key, as always. As you can see in a well-known example where 私はウナギだ can mean "I'll order unadon (a bowl of rice topped with grilled eel)", the same sentence can be "they can only produce about 15 cents worth of work" if the speaker is on the side of the owner of the company.
 

karenk

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Hi, what could「やりますねえ」 mean in this context? Is she refering to the police? Like "they are really going for it!" I suppose that 例の意地わるが始った would be something like "(the police) has started with its usual nastiness". Or am I too off the mark? Thank you!

 炬燵の上に新聞をひろげて更に眺め、わたしはこの暴圧がどの位の範囲まで拡大するものか、或は終熄するものか見当がつかなかった。○○君は単純にまた例の意地わるが始ったというぐらいに理解している。
「やりますねえ」
と云って、炬燵の向い側から同じ新聞をのぞいている。
 

karenk

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Hi, in the passage:
今日は、下諏訪から満州へ出征させられて戦死した兵士の遺骨が到着したので、青年団の連中は停車場前の奉迎に強制動員されたのだそうだ。
「ここへ来る前塩尻が本籍地だって云うのでもう一度そっちで奉迎やって来たずら。骨をわけて持って来て、またこっちで奉迎だ。雪っぷりに傘もささせぬ。新規の羽織台なしずら」
 ばかばかしそうな口ぶりで農民の△君が話した。
「どうだ? 女子の方も行ったかね?」
「行くもんで! 話して来ないもん」

I suppose that 農民の△君 is a man right? Because of the way he speaks and because he wears a haori, which I suppose was more common for men than for women in formal occasions at the time. When he is asked if the women also went to the reception at the station, does he say "And do you think that they would go? They wouldn't go even if they were asked!"? Is my understanding correct?
 

Toritoribe

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I suppose that 農民の△君 is a man right?
Right.

does he say "And do you think that they would go? They wouldn't go even if they were asked!"?
It should be 話して来ないもん for that meaning. I think the one who said どうだ? 女子の方も行ったかね?is △君. He talked to women workers, and one of them answered 行くもんで! 話して来ないもん.
 

karenk

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Right.


It should be 話して来ないもん for that meaning. I think the one who said どうだ? 女子の方も行ったかね?is △君. He talked to women workers, and one of them answered 行くもんで! 話して来ないもん.
Hum... in this case the woman who answered said: "How would we? They didn't asked us (to go)"?
 

Toritoribe

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It's not 話して来なかった, thus, it's habit. She said "they (always) don't talk to us."
 

karenk

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Right.


It should be 話して来ないもん for that meaning. I think the one who said どうだ? 女子の方も行ったかね?is △君. He talked to women workers, and one of them answered 行くもんで! 話して来ないもん.
I'm wondering if the person who said 「どうだ? 女子の方も行ったかね?」could be another woman, because △君 was there at the ceremony and would have seen if his female colleagues were present. A woman who is not part of the Seinendan could have asked and a female member of the Seinendan could have answered. What do you think?
 

Toritoribe

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Hmm, the speaker could be ○○君, but my initial thought was that there were many people at the ceremony and it's not impossible he didn't recognize whether women workers were there or not.
I think ○○君 is a man, by the way (because of 君 and the way of saying).
 

karenk

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Hmm, the speaker could be ○○君, but my initial thought was that there were many people at the ceremony and it's not impossible he didn't recognize whether women workers were there or not.
I think ○○君 is a man, by the way (because of 君 and the way of saying).
It is getting a bit confusing.... About ○○君, I guessed ○○君 was a woman because of this passage: ○○君は自身評議会時代から階級的闘士として立つ以前、製糸工場で「見番(けんばん)」をやっていた経験がある. Doesn't it say that ○○君 worked as a gueixa for the mills? Or does it mean that ○○君 provided gueixas for them? And ○○君 is also a member of a literary circle which I undestood that was aimed at women.
 
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Toritoribe

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見番 is the name of a position/post like "group leader" or "section chief" in the mills.

職工住宅は主として製糸工場に於けるいわゆる見番と称する男工の為に工場内に長屋式に設けられ、見番たる男工とその妻子との住むものにして、一室三畳、四畳、四畳半位のもの多く、一組の夫婦と子供の住むに六畳以上のものなし云々
 

karenk

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見番 is the name of a position/post like "group leader" or "section chief" in the mills.

職工住宅は主として製糸工場に於けるいわゆる見番と称する男工の為に工場内に長屋式に設けられ、見番たる男工とその妻子との住むものにして、一室三畳、四畳、四畳半位のもの多く、一組の夫婦と子供の住むに六畳以上のものなし云々
I see! Thank you!
 

karenk

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Tori, can I translate the last part of the passage below as "for this exact reason, as weapons of the rightful class, they are the sprouts of the proletarian literature"? I'm not sure about how to translate 正しい階級
下手であろうとも、それらの文章はまず勤労婦人達が自分たちの毎日の生活を通じて階級的な主張を表現してゆく画期的な端緒であり、それこそ正しい階級の武器としてのプロレタリア文学の萌芽である
 
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Toritoribe

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I think 正しい modifies 武器, not 階級. It's also possible to interpret that 正しい modifies 萌芽.
 
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