Japan's low birth rate

[douchebag]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060502/od_nm/japan_marriage_dc_5
Do you think what the government is thinking of doing will help the birth rate?
After I read this article, I went to the discussion boards about this and I couldn't believe what I was reading from fellow Americans. So many ignorami, racists and bigots.
It really has me peeved.
Beware. If you plan on reading their comments please know that that thread is very long.

 

[yukio_michael]

It's hard to get into a serious discussion with someone named douchebag, sorry.

 

[douchebag]

It's hard to get into a serious discussion with someone named douchebag, sorry.

I forgive you. Wait a minute. Your "apology" reminds me of something my HighSchool teacher told a misbehaving student when he said he was sorry. She said,"You're not sorry!" and I knew he wasn't sorry. So forgive me if I believe you right now.
It's just a freakin' net handle sir. Get the hell OFF it! You should stop being lazy and at least TRY to get into this conversation. WTH?
Why do I even bother. sheetbag

 

[Mike Cash]

There are net handles, and there are net handles.

I have enough trouble having net discussions with people who use net handles to begin with.....nevermind something as crude and tasteless as "douchebag".

 

[douchebag]

Maybe everybody else should change their net handles to douchebag. I'd like to talk to SOMEBODY who is going into the topic at hand? If not, somebody just close this thread.
Get off your high horses people! I'd take reading the damn racist-against-Japanese people over you at this rate.
I'm just gonna request that the admins close this thread.

 

[Mycernius]

I think the subject in hand is valid, so it will remain open. Please stay on topic people, not pick on others usernames, that is not the purpose of this thread.

 

[RockLee]

I couldn't agree more. It's not that he posted something totally crap for starters.

 

[Mars Man]

ok, then...I will read the link in detail later, but for now will say that while Japan will have to face up to the reality of not only a low birth rate, but an aging society as well. Of course it is not only something that this country faces. One good read on this is The Empty Cradle (and please excuse my laziness in not wanting to run over to the dozo to see the author's name)

I plan on getting back here later.

 

[MajideSaiaku]

Then theres the further issue of Japanese having to come to grips with the modern fact that relationships in a developed educated society depends as much on a couple liking and loving each other then children or just because its what everyone else does.

I know western society isnt perfect in this sense, far from it, but, the Japanese attitude to marriage, kids and each other in general of late is concerning for me.

I read a newspaper article that basically called everyone who didnt have kids selfish idiots who looked down with contempt or pity at motherhood/fatherhood.

I disagreed and yet agreed at the same time, many people though not doing it for selfish reasons, just dont want kids....i wouldnt say not having kids is somehow being selfish and disrespectful to humanity, and no-one no matter what our biology says is obliged to raise children, but, yet the new modern freedoms still mean that we dont have enough people willing enough to have enough kids to replace the deceased.

I reckon japan would sooner take drastic steps towards contraceptives and family planning and abortion then some other ideas like immigration.

 

[Mars Man]

In yesterday's issue of THE DAILY YOMIURI newspaper, there was an article on how the government is planning to dip into some funds in an effort to tackle that problem of decreasing pregnancies.

Being me, I suddenly warmed up to some quite vivid imaginations in my mind on just what steps the government plans on taking to make more of its women pregnant--I mean that's the nuts and bolts of increasing the population via increasing the birth rate, right?!

Let's see if I can catch anymore info on this.....

 

[yukio_michael]

Well yes, the thing is, if Japan was a tad more able to deal with it's own xenophobia, it might have a plan for it's labour crisis in the future*--- as is, and I've read a good deal on this lately, there is zero dialouge about this, other than what is talked about when refering to the fingerprinting at airports---

Sooner or later, Japan needs to get over themselves.

*I honestly think the cure for Japan's labour crisis, will be with lax treatment of illegal immigrants from China & Korea... & not with skilled labour immigration reforms as is happening in the UK & Australia, and wherever else...

 

[godppgo]

Here's an interesting fact, close to 70% of Japanese agree that low birth rate is a problem that government should address and only 8% think it's something the government should not interfere with. However, only 13.3% of Japanese think the government should adopt immigration policy similar to that of US, Australia, UK, or Canada. The thing is not only will Japan need immigration, far more importantly, it also needs to compete with other countries for immigrants. What can Japan offer which gives them an advantage over others? I think as long as Japan remains as a closed society as it is now, immigration will not solve the aging problem completely.

 

[yukio_michael]

What can Japan offer which gives them an advantage over others? I think as long as Japan remains as a closed society as it is now, immigration will not solve the aging problem completely.

Something else, and it was mentioned a while ago by Macciamo, is Japan's relative appeal in terms of quality of living, etcetera, where it ranks somewhere down around 14th or 12th, I believe. The Economist rates these types of things usually at the back of each issue, and Japan frequently doesn't even score in lists compiling the top open business environments in specific regions or countires... Perhaps it's because Japan is not considered an emerging market, but I find that specious if regions like Hong Kong, and Britain are listed.

I'm wondering how Korea & Taiwan's business forcast compares. Favourably, I'd imagine. It seems to me, at least while I was in Seoul and had access to Korean televison, that Korea is in a growth period where they are welcoming foreign investors and business, much like Japan 'appeared to be' in the early 90s, which was more or less an after effect of the car-import backlash in the United States, rather than open-trade policies.

 

[Mars Man]

Some good comments and observations there folks. I would tend to think, at the same time, that when the government speaks of making some effort to increase the birth rate, they're speaking of the birth rate of and among Japanese citizens first and foremost.

That would, I'd think, include those like my three sons, who can obtain Japanese citizenship just as easily as any child born to parents who both have full citizenship in the first place. I don't think that would include children born of parents who live and work in Japan but who do not have Japanese citizenship.

So immigration alone may not be enough to deal with it unless we assume immigration with the intent to become naturalized citizens--of course ones children could apply for such regardless of what the parents were to do, but anyway, that's not 'birth rate'.

 

[Kinsao]

Interesting topic. (Mars Man's first comment reminds me of when I used to claim my bf was employed by the Japanese government to help increase the population... XD)

I think, really there needs to be a combination of a more positive attitude to immigration and also a more positive attitude to having children. I don't think immigration by itself is completely the solution. Why? Well, partly because it could cause social problems if it progressed at too fast a rate. Perhaps one day, we will see a world where the population of all countries is totally mixed between 'natives' of the land in question, and non-native immigrants - but... that is still hypothetical, and meanwhile immigration does raise social issues. Although of course, it would be great if the Japanese government did adopt a more... practical approach to it.

As regards having children, that's such a complex issue... just 'matchmaking' isn't really going to touch the problem. I'm sure there are many couples who are in a happy relationship but who don't want children, or maybe want only one.

It's very difficult to address, because for a while now, there has been social pressure on people not to have children. I can't talk specifically about Japan because I have never been there, but it appears to be following in the footsteps of European countries on this (even to a greater extent). I can feel the pressures here in the UK and I imagine (maybe someone in Japan can give more insight into this) similar pressures in Japan. It seems there are 2 main pressures - money and freedom. I know of a lot of people who say they don't want children because they want to have money instead. That's a bit of a blunt way of putting it, but that's what it boils down to. They say they 'can't afford' to bring up children, stuff like that... and I can appreciate that they would want to give their children the best, and not bring them up in a slum... but it's not a question of the slum in their case... these are people with big houses, 2 cars, exotic holidays... at the risk of sounding old, how did they think people managed 'back in the day', when the economy was not so good and most everyone was poorer?

Sorry - I'm ranting. :sorry:

The other issue putting people off having children seems to be mainly freedom. Now that people can choose when to have children, they often don't want to give up their freedom to... *thinks*... well, I guess it's freedom to not have to think about anyone other than yourself. Because with a kid, you can't get away from the fact that you have to consider them. You can't go to work when you like. You can't go off on vacation when you like. They demand attention from you.

Well, with all that, is it any wonder people don't choose to have children? If you think about it like that, it sounds really unappealing. But I think that's largely because governments have spent so long 'promoting' only the unattractive aspects of having kids. It's now ingrained in our psyche - at least, in the UK. How many times have I heard women parrotting the phrases 'I need some time to myself', and 'I want to be myself, not just 'Mum'', 'I want to do my own thing... do something for myself'... phrases you see all the time in magazines, but the sad thing is they say them without even thinking about what they are saying or realising that they are following in the groove that has been cut for them.

Why would governments have been 'promoting' the negative aspects of having kids, though? To get more women working, of course! In the short term, that looks better for the economy; for a woman to have one or maybe 2 kids only, and encourage her to come back to work, because that's somehow, surely, being an employee of a company makes you more 'free' than just being 'Mum'?

But now, it seems governments are seeing that it was a bit of a shot in the foot for them, as the long-term effects come into play and the population begins to fall below the replacement level. Now they have to start trying to undo the social programming they were so keen to feed to us.

Umm, I'm not sure if any of that was appropriate - please feel free to delete my post if you think it's too far from the topic. :sorry:

 

[Han Chan]

I agree that increased immigration could help somewhat to deal with the demographic problem in Japan, but the main issue is why the young Japanese are getting enough children.

The main problem as I see it is that the politicians are mainly old men (conservative "dinosaurs") who are unable to understand the reality of young women/people.

In Japan as well as most of the other countries the young women have been accused of beeing too lazy of spoiled to live up to their responsibility and produce the next generation - but obviously each individual woman makes her choise. The latest idea of offering free dating adds is a good example of this disconnect: The young people do actually not have serious problems finding partners - they merely choose not having children.

The only way seems to offer the young women the option of taking paid maternaty leave and at the same time enshure that they after a short period of a year or so can return to their jobs.

In Japan the young generation do not even bother to argue with the old conservative "dinosaurs" - they simply live their life. And in a few years this situation will lead to economic decline or increased immigration. But at that time todays generation of old men in power will not need to be reelected - so who cares? If the Japanese women care, they should get involved in politics -it is not likely that the old men are going to change anything....

 

[Mars Man]

One note:

I collect things from the paper on matters like this and have a number of clippings from the 'Troubleshooter'--a section translated from the Japanese YOMIURI newspaper into the English THE YOMIURI DAILY. Most of the ones I have on marriage problems come from women who obviously have run into trouble with their men--but some of those even boil down to just differences between the married partners. Some person answers to their questions/requests for help.

In one such column that came in the April 23, 05 issue, I found a troubling statement in the answer given for that issues problem. The title was "Wife troubled by sexless marriage." The lady, in her 30's had been married for 4 years and they had had two children. She said her husband was very helpful with the housework, worked hard, and left very little to be desired except that they almost never had sex. (I've heard of cases like this a number of times)

In the answer by one psychiatrist, Junko Umihara, the surprizing statement was, "I know it isn't easy for a couple to talk about sex, but..." WHAT??!! I thought to myself. . . is it really so? And it may be so for many couples...this may be one of the several problems too. (this is asked as much more of a joke than otherwise.)