Japanese in Manga vs. Spoken Japanese

[William Spencer]

Hi there
A Japanese buddy of mine pointed out that sometimes he hears Japanese language learners using Japanese which has obviously come from either manga and/or anime. He said that often it is really strange to hear since the Japanese used in manga/anime is somewhat different from the Japanese actually spoken. Any comments or experiences?

William Spencer

 

[UNaruto1990]

What I know is that spoken Japanese is somehow formal, while in anime it's oftenly informal ...

 

[Karamuucho]

Well, the same could be said for say an English film and spoken English, but yea I guess anime/manga could be taken rather strangely if the same lines were spoken.

There aren't many people in Japan who speak exactly like say a hero, in a manga, thats because the dialogue is intended to sound perhaps cool, or with the emotion to convey a scene properly and to move the viewer in a way to enhance the effect of that particular scene. Much in the same way you wouldn't expect people in an english speaking country to walk around talking like a superhero. Or atleast you would find it weird.

Still to a certain extent, language in manga can help learners to understand slang and dialect (as long as someone is around to teach them... lol)

 

[yukio_michael]

I think it all depends on the manga you are reading... anime is definitely not natural Japanese, but many serialized manga do present very natural sounding coloquial Japanese...

Manga such as Sarari-kun, Midori-san, Cooking Papa, Tanaka-kun, What's Michael?, Obatarian, Crayon Shin-chan, Furiten-kun, Dai Toukyou Binbou Seikatsu Manyuaru, are some of the ones that come to mind.

Of course it's important to use manga as a supplement to a real coursework, rather than as the coursework itself... You need to know the boundaries of polite and plain speech, as well as a solid understanding of grammar, vocabulary, and kana/kanji.

 

[Kirie_Maiden]

Some of the lanuage used in the Anime are completely different to the subtitles, so it is difficult to learn that way. Using the language would be strange if that is the way that a person learned the language, wouldn't it?

 

[yukio_michael]

Some of the lanuage used in the Anime are completely different to the subtitles, so it is difficult to learn that way. Using the language would be strange if that is the way that a person learned the language, wouldn't it?

It's the language that is used in anime not necessarily the quality of the translation that counts... though you can use anime for listening comprehension... any little thing can help you learn, but you have to be careful how you use what you learn.

 

[Karamuucho]

Some of the lanuage used in the Anime are completely different to the subtitles, so it is difficult to learn that way. Using the language would be strange if that is the way that a person learned the language, wouldn't it?

I wouldn't suggest at all, ever, learning Japanese from other people's translations. Not only is it dependant on how the translator personally interperets the dialogue, and that translation requires sometimes to change completely what is said to make sense a given nuance or situation, but when it comes down to stuff like fansubbing, a lot of translators are plain ridiculous, there are a lot of fansub-translators out there who don't know Japanese all that well, or are in the process of learning and use it as an exercise. Having said that, translation of anime isn't as easy as it sounds, and even without mistakes, as I said, translation requires changing scentences, as Japanese doesn't work in the same way English does (sorry for stating the obvious, heh).

Still, I wouldn't put down translating anime/manga yourself. It is a great way to learn new words through applying them in a scentence, and hearing how it is used. Also when it comes to action anime there isn't really a whole lot of dialogue so it can be very easy, lol, but when it comes to the intricate details of why the superhero could do the special moves and what energy he is using to make those energy beams..... things can get confusing even for a native. It is, afterall, make-beleive.

 

[yukio_michael]

[...]there are a lot of fansub-translators out there who don't know Japanese all that well, or are in the process of learning and use it as an exercise.

Though there are also a lot of fan-subbers who go a great distance to provide extra information about cultural aspects of Japan or certain slang or phrases. I do feel that professional translations are (almost) always better than fansubbed ones, but I have seen some really good fan-subs though, one in particular for Oruchuban Ebichu, which gives each episode an introduction to various types of jokes that are made that are specific to the Japanese language.

 

[William Spencer]

I think it all depends on the manga you are reading... anime is definitely not natural Japanese, but many serialized manga do present very natural sounding coloquial Japanese...

Manga such as Sarari-kun, Midori-san, Cooking Papa, Tanaka-kun, What's Michael?, Obatarian, Crayon Shin-chan, Furiten-kun, Dai Toukyou Binbou Seikatsu Manyuaru, are some of the ones that come to mind.

Of course it's important to use manga as a supplement to a real coursework, rather than as the coursework itself... You need to know the boundaries of polite and plain speech, as well as a solid understanding of grammar, vocabulary, and kana/kanji.

i teach a course using manga only no other materials. it's tough on students and me (as a non-japanese national) because in the case of authentic materials there's a gap between background knowledge of having been brought up in Japan and limited knowledge to no background knowledge.

i have used saimon fumi's manga, ootomo katsuhiro, kintaroo the salarymen for swearing, kariya tetsu (oshinbo) really hard and the like.

i certainly concentrate on the kanji and other vocabulary items, however, many students feel that they can speak like this because it is in their eyes Japanese language.

i thought your comment about 'real coursework' was interesting. was does 'real' mean? for those students who say speak like a textbook then their japanese is going to be 'wierd' too. too much politeness is too over the top while not enough is just as problematic. 窶堋ｳ窶堋?窶堙??堋､窶堋ｷ窶堙ｪ窶堙寂?堋｢窶堋｢窶堙??堋ｵ窶堙･窶堋､窶堋ｩﾂ？ﾅ?Oﾂ坂?伉人窶堙固?wﾂ習ﾅｽﾃ停?堙坂?怒窶懌?凪?堙俄?堙や?堙ｧ窶堋｢窶堙??堋ｷ窶堙仰。

☝

Though there are also a lot of fan-subbers who go a great distance to provide extra information about cultural aspects of Japan or certain slang or phrases. I do feel that professional translations are (almost) always better than fansubbed ones, but I have seen some really good fan-subs though, one in particular for Oruchuban Ebichu, which gives each episode an introduction to various types of jokes that are made that are specific to the Japanese language.

Is Ebichu the hamster? it's pretty funny in terms of sexual innuendo, if it's the one i'm thinking of...

W S

 

[Karamuucho]

Ebichu meets the turtle... hahahah... gotta love Ebichu.

Anyway whilst learning slang, and even swearing may be useful, when learning a foreign language I beleive it should be of highest priority to learn the formal, before the informal. Speaking like a textbook may seem weird, but it won't be rude to anyone, your friends can teach you (either pro-actively, or just by being around them) slang and the like, but speaking informally at say, a job interview isn't the smartest idea in the world.

 

[yukio_michael]

Is Ebichu the hamster? it's pretty funny in terms of sexual innuendo, if it's the one i'm thinking of...

Yep, that's the one.

I think Karamuucho pretty much answered the question for me, in short I'll add that you have to, as always, know the rules, to know when you can break them... Your Japanese may sound "weird" by being too polite, but I'd rather sound too polite, than sound rude.

Real coursework is something structured that presents new information as it builds on the older information it has already presented, in a way that doesn't overwhelm the student... Texts like Minna no Nihongo, Japanese for Everyone, (now probably defunct), and Genki.

Throw in a few books specific to gramatical aspects of the language, when needed, and you have a well rounded student.

 

[William Spencer]

I think Karamuucho pretty much answered the question for me, in short I'll add that you have to, as always, know the rules, to know when you can break them... Your Japanese may sound "weird" by being too polite, but I'd rather sound too polite, than sound rude.

i don't subscribe to the 'rules' view of language, i'm more of a 'choices' sort of guy. that is, by saying that there are rules then we move into more of a right/wrong continuum. that changes when language is seen as a resource for making meaning based on choices for situation.

Real coursework is something structured that presents new information as it builds on the older information it has already presented, in a way that doesn't overwhelm the student... Texts like Minna no Nihongo, Japanese for Everyone, (now probably defunct), and Genki.

Throw in a few books specific to gramatical aspects of the language, when needed, and you have a well rounded student.

read a paper i wrote called 'putting more than words in their mouths: using model dialogues to construct social reality in the japanese language classroom japanese studies vol 18. no 2 1998

the point is that a textbook 'cleans' up the L2 and thus removes what could be potentially deemed as dangerous for the learner to learn and eventually use. while i take peoples' points about manga language, i wonder about the question, 'where's japanese?' and what in fact is actually being taught in japanese language classes.

☝

 

[William Spencer]

So i guess my next question is, are there people using manga/anime in the classroom to learn/teach japanese language? if so, how are these materials being used? i'd like to share my experiences with you!

 

[Karamuucho]

I know that some schools use anpanman/moomin(ok not japanese anime but still) characters in their textbooks, but thats like, for children, in a normal school. Bit different, is it? lol

 

[William Spencer]

I know that some schools use anpanman/moomin(ok not japanese anime but still) characters in their textbooks, but thats like, for children, in a normal school. Bit different, is it? lol

yeah it's a bit different. i actually mean real manga/anime. one of the issues of such usage is copyright! using so-called authentic texts (how come that term?) can be problematic for so many reasons not just language problems.

 

[leonmarino]

I know that some schools use anpanman/moomin(ok not japanese anime but still) characters in their textbooks, but thats like, for children, in a normal school. Bit different, is it? lol

There are a lot of Doraemon and Sazae-san manga books out there with English "subtitles". I happen to own a few of 'em for some reason. But because English and Japanese are so different, the translations are often very crooked.

 

[82riceballs]

well, some anime characters are very rude -say for example inuyasha. u would not want to curse every three seconds lke he does.

neither would u wan to sound condescending lk advanced martial artists might ^^

 

[yukio_michael]

I know that some schools use anpanman/moomin(ok not japanese anime but still) characters in their textbooks, but thats like, for children, in a normal school. Bit different, is it? lol

Anpanman & Doraemon could sell a child a chainsaw given the propper advertising behind them both...

I was amazed at how much Doraemon & Anpanman are just quite simply ubiquitous in Japan... any fami-resu you go to has at least one or the other... I've said it before and I'll say it again, the way to a (Japanese) girl's heart is not through Hello Kitty, it's through Doraemon. The bonus points are incredible!