is it all about the visual?

[Horizon]

And why would someone yell at you for them not liking them...? o.0?

 

[hebiichigo]

I was kidding..

 

[Horizon]

Oh...I'm stupid...

Leave me alone! -hides away-

 

[hebiichigo]

no no nooo! xD
you're not stupid, I just don't make any sense

 

[Horizon]

Meh...Could have been the fact that, at the time, I had just gotten up half an hour ago...

 

[mizerable_d]

what happened to this thread? oh ya Kaidan never came back. grr to her.

 

[Kinsao]

It's strange - I hear a lot of talk moaning about fans who only like bands for the visuals, but guess what? I've yet to actually find a person who really is like that...

 

[mizerable_d]

It's strange - I hear a lot of talk moaning about fans who only like bands for the visuals, but guess what? I've yet to actually find a person who really is like that...

i dont think they ONLY like the visuals. but i have met people who listen to the music only because they like the visuals, while the song is pretty much crap.

 

[furan]

yeah... they listen to the music still... and they go on and on and on about it.... but.... in all reality. they're only listening to it BECAUSE the band's cute, and... yeah...

like, haven't you noticed that there are a LOT of fans out there who, say... listen to.... Gazette... but would otherwise never go near that kind of music...
and when they do listen to it... they only listen to the really mllow one's... and anctually don;t care much for the others....

GAH! thank's for the Janne da Arc Hebi! *huggles*
i've seen them arround and always wondered what they wee like... but i never heared anyone ever talking about them... so i presumed that... there wasn't anything really to talk about... as that should be the case with all bands...
(...but then, that's what this thread's all about....)

 

[SaKeVi]

EDIT: I found something Mana said in an interview of Moi dix Mois, I thought it was interesting in relation to this thread, he says:

"There isn't only the music. There is also the visual side, our universe. It窶冱 really sad if they only like the music. If you for example, look at the CD's picture you share this universe that you just can't download. I wish that people could love our entire universe."

For me personally, the music always comes first. But Mana also has a point. And, it's interesting to me to get a slant on the way a musician sees it...

That's why circus are for we are back again to what I said on drummers topic, if he wants to be a model, that's fine, but it sucks when he IS a model and pretends to be a musician... well, not a model, maybe a Drag Queen.

Do you consider Mana as a musician??? hmmmm

It's strange - I hear a lot of talk moaning about fans who only like bands for the visuals, but guess what? I've yet to actually find a person who really is like that...

If you come to Mexico, I can introduce you at least 5 girls who are like that... and I'm not kidding, they are annoying, you're lucky you haven't found fans like this.

See ya!

 

[kairi~vs~rinoa]

Do you consider Mana as a musician??? hmmmm

well considering that he plays a musical instrument i'd say yes to that one. isn't that what musicians do? play instruments? or is my whole outlook on this wrong....

 

[Kinsao]

It's interesting what you say!

Do you consider Mana as a musician??? hmmmm

Yes, I do consider Mana as a musician - up to a point. I have reason: he plays the guitar and writes songs, so, the way I see it, he is a musician. Maybe you don't think he is a good musician? :? Personally, I think he is a quite good musician, but not one of the very best out there. *gets attacked by rabid Mana fans*

But when I say "up to a point", I mean that Mana is not only a musician, but he is also a businessman, and a showman. And I think that shows in the quotation from him. The fact is, that it is not just the music that is important to him, but the whole image. So to me, "Mana" is about more than "musician". And that is his choice; the way he feels most comfortable to work. Me, I like to listen to the music and I am not that bothered about all the other stuff that goes with it. I can admire that Mana is good at the "image" and the "entire universe", but I can't relate to that so easily as I can to purely the sound. That is why I don't consider him as one of the best musicians, although he is surely one of the best businessmen in jrock!

If you come to Mexico, I can introduce you at least 5 girls who are like that... and I'm not kidding, they are annoying, you're lucky you haven't found fans like this.

Yep, that does sound annoying. I hope I never run across too many fans like that! I really think they must be a little deficient in the brain area - either that or they are perhaps tone deaf or something...

 

[kairi~vs~rinoa]

well said kinsao, i agree on the mana topic there.
i'm half and half on the fangirl subject. i'm ok with them if they like someone for their looks but don't like their music (its their choice not to and their opinion). take me for example, i find the oriental guy in smashing pumpkins attractive but i'm not too keen on their music.
but fangirls can take it too far and start foaming at the mouth over someones looks and claiming to know all about them when they clearly don't. thats what i don't like. the repeated "waaa i love you! so kawaii! *dribbles*"
anyone can find certain people attractive or visually pleasing, but it all depends on what you do with it that determines if you are a fangirl or just simply a fan.

 

[SaKeVi]

Yikes!!

Maybe I didn't express myself correctly, as Kinsao let me knew on her post.

well considering that he plays a musical instrument i'd say yes to that one. isn't that what musicians do? play instruments? or is my whole outlook on this wrong....

You're right on your perception; however, I've seen dogs playing piano on TV blooper shows, I wonder if we can consider them too as musicians hehehe

Yes, I do consider Mana as a musician - up to a point. I have reason: he plays the guitar and writes songs, so, the way I see it, he is a musician. Maybe you don't think he is a good musician? Personally, I think he is a quite good musician, but not one of the very best out there. *gets attacked by rabid Mana fans*

I give you the reason here, but you're right, I don't consider Mana as a good musician (see the dogs comparison above )

But when I say "up to a point", I mean that Mana is not only a musician, but he is also a businessman, and a showman. And I think that shows in the quotation from him. The fact is, that it is not just the music that is important to him, but the whole image. So to me, "Mana" is about more than "musician". And that is his choice; the way he feels most comfortable to work.

I think that we have the disagreement right here, I'm a musician (a bad musician, I have to admit it ) and I have my personal opinions about how a band should behave on stage... in the end, the only thing you expect from a MUSIC BAND is to play music, not to convert the place on a fashion stage... I was horrified when I saw his shows, you know, the fanservice they give (kisses, touching each other...) and dissapointed to see that a MUSIC band is more recognized because of their looks than their music.

I'm not saying also that the band image doesn't matter, but when that comes first than music, I can't consider that musicians or a band.

I don't know if you understand me, sorry.

Yep, that does sound annoying. I hope I never run across too many fans like that! I really think they must be a little deficient in the brain area - either that or they are perhaps tone deaf or something...

Hehehehe, I'm glad that I haven't seen girls like this here. well, far now ^^

Ok, see you later!!

 

[Horizon]

You're right on your perception; however, I've seen dogs playing piano on TV blooper shows, I wonder if we can consider them too as musicians hehehe

I love it when humans assume animals are stupid!

 

[Kinsao]

I don't consider Mana as a good musician

Well, fair enough! As I said, although I do quite like his music, I don't consider him as one of the best musicians, so... your opinion is of course as valid as anyone else's!

in the end, the only thing you expect from a MUSIC BAND is to play music, not to convert the place on a fashion stage... I was horrified when I saw his shows, you know, the fanservice they give (kisses, touching each other...) and dissapointed to see that a MUSIC band is more recognized because of their looks than their music.

I'm not saying also that the band image doesn't matter, but when that comes first than music, I can't consider that musicians or a band.

Actually, in that, too, I think we are agreeing with each other in fact. I certainly think that for a band, their music should always be first, most important. Where I would differ is that you say you can't consider them as musicians at all if they put their image before the music. I would still consider them as musicians, but I would continue to judge their music on its own quality, leaving the image/appearance out of the equation. So, I might (depending on the band!) come to the conclusion that they are a group of bad musicians with a nice stage show. I would still call them "musicians", but simply sigh and say to myself, "they're crap!"

Disclaimer: I don't mean to refer to Moi dix Mois even though my original quotation was from Mana. I mean my comment generally.

 

[SaKeVi]

I love it when humans assume animals are stupid!

I love it when people say things I've never said...

Where I would differ is that you say you can't consider them as musicians at all if they put their image before the music. I would still consider them as musicians, but I would continue to judge their music on its own quality, leaving the image/appearance out of the equation. So, I might (depending on the band!) come to the conclusion that they are a group of bad musicians with a nice stage show. I would still call them "musicians", but simply sigh and say to myself, "they're crap!"

Hahahaha, good point, but well... I still consider him not a (good) musician, because his purpose was to sell his image, not his music, am I wrong?? I just can't accept that as an example of what a musician does.

Anyways, I guess they might have more success if they just make a performance on the stage, with pre-recorded music, well, at least 90% of the fans would be happier

Disclaimer: I don't mean to refer to Moi dix Mois even though my original quotation was from Mana. I mean my comment generally.

Don't worry, I do refer M10M on my comments

By the way, It's always cool to 'discuss' with you See you!

 

[Horizon]

I love it when people say things I've never said...

Ahhh...But you did with the entire "however, I've seen dogs playing piano on TV blooper shows, I wonder if we can consider them too as musicians hehehe" thing.

Now, I'm not saying a dog pianist DOES indeed know about what exactly they're doing, however I'm not a piano-playing-dog, now am I? So I really wouldn't know. Ditto, I'm assuming, for you as well.

So, yes...You were basically implying an assumption to non-human intelligence right there. So nyah!

 

[Kinsao]

well... I still consider him not a (good) musician, because his purpose was to sell his image, not his music, am I wrong?? I just can't accept that as an example of what a musician does.

That is an interesting point of view. I can accept that you don't consider him a good musician. I'm not sure I agree with your reason, though. I would say, if his music is not good, then, he is not a good musician (regardless of what the image is like). Conversely, if his music is good, he is then a good musician (again, regardless of image).

So, I can say that I think his intention in making music does not affect whether I judge the resulting music as good or bad.

However, you make a good point. Because, personally, I feel that if a musician's intention is not focused purely on communicating through music, but instead their energies are dispersed among also image and theatrics, then their music is less likely to be such high quality. Of course, that is not necessarily the case. I simply feel that... how to say it...?... that a person's motives and intentions in making music are reflected in their resulting work.

That is not at all to say that "visual" bands or those with elaborate stage shows are musically any less good than any others. It depends on how you arrive at the result. In most cases I think the band focuses on the music, that is what is always driving them. Then, the "visual" element is added to this, perhaps in order to sell, perhaps also to give what you might call a more "complete show" (i.e. to appeal to other senses than audio, to enhance the experience of the music - because as you know, live experience is much more enhanced than just CD listening, even for totally non-visual bands). And also, in many of such cases, these elements are worked on mainly by other people than the band - technicians, make up artists etc. - so that even though the band might get control, they don't have to disperse their energies in making the things happen. An example I would think of is Psycho le Cemu, very strongly visual but also they make good music (in my opinion, that is!).

But I do think that if a band concentrates too hard on things outside of music, like the "whole image", probably their music will suffer. You are quite right to say a "musician" is primarily just that - a musician, not a theatre director or choreographer or clothing designer or whatnot. But, I do think that people can attempt to be many things, musician included. But, if you attempt to be many things, the chances are that you will do none of them so well as if you concentrate on one thing. Of course, there are some few very talented people who can succeed in doing the many things, and in my opinion Mana is one of them, to some extent. I think that musically, he could be better, but not so much as actual "bad" musician, and I admire the way he has different abilities.

Anyways, I guess they might have more success if they just make a performance on the stage, with pre-recorded music, well, at least 90% of the fans would be happier

On the contrary, I personally would lose respect for a band - as a band - that simply did such a thing! And I think many people would, also. That's not to say I wouldn't think they were a very original theatre group, though...

By the way, It's always cool to 'discuss' with you See you!

Awww - thankyou! And you!

 

[SaKeVi]

Ahhh...But you did with the entire "however, I've seen dogs playing piano on TV blooper shows, I wonder if we can consider them too as musicians hehehe" thing.

Now, I'm not saying a dog pianist DOES indeed know about what exactly they're doing, however I'm not a piano-playing-dog, now am I? So I really wouldn't know. Ditto, I'm assuming, for you as well.

So, yes...You were basically implying an assumption to non-human intelligence right there. So nyah!

Holy cow!! (I hope you not to take this expression as an insult to a cow )

I never said dogs were stupid, if you take my comment as that, I have to tell you that it wasn't my purpose, to minimize animals intelligence.

I said that to express that sometimes, people and even animals just "play" a music instrument even though they are NOT musicians, the fact that you have a guitar and play one chord doesn't make you a musician... I tried to compare Mana (as a musician) with a TV show dog (poor dogs... ) because as I said, the fact that they make some melodies (NOT music at all) doesn't make them musicians, does it??

So, I can say that I think his intention in making music does not affect whether I judge the resulting music as good or bad.

Interesting, but I will add another topic here: if Mana (or any other VK member or band) doesn't even try to make his music better, he has 2 arguments, 1.- He is a conformist or 2.- He isn't as creative as we thought.
I don't really know which one of this 2 points fit to Mana.

However, you make a good point. Because, personally, I feel that if a musician's intention is not focused purely on communicating through music, but instead their energies are dispersed among also image and theatrics, then their music is less likely to be such high quality. Of course, that is not necessarily the case. I simply feel that... how to say it...?... that a person's motives and intentions in making music are reflected in their resulting work

Hey! I agree with you with that... personally, I've listened and watched a whole bunch of Visual bands, and I was very dissapointed that most of them were just as you said on the last part of your paragraph: they just care about the Visual rather than the music... that's why I criticize a lot Visual Kei

Far now, I like only 3 VK bands: Dead popstars, Kagerou and Kaggra, I find their music interesting and "different".

That is not at all to say that "visual" bands or those with elaborate stage shows are musically any less good than any others. It depends on how you arrive at the result. In most cases I think the band focuses on the music, that is what is always driving them. Then, the "visual" element is added to this, perhaps in order to sell, perhaps also to give what you might call a more "complete show"

Mmm, I think we have the same opinion here, but I'll have to add something on the bottom part of the post.

But, I do think that people can attempt to be many things, musician included. But, if you attempt to be many things, the chances are that you will do none of them so well as if you concentrate on one thing. Of course, there are some few very talented people who can succeed in doing the many things, and in my opinion Mana is one of them, to some extent. I think that musically, he could be better, but not so much as actual "bad" musician, and I admire the way he has different abilities.

Yup, I admire Yoshiki as a musician and a producer, even though I still consider he sucks playing drums

I see Mana just as a "showbusiness" man , he just concluded what Yoshiki started in 1987, he made Visual a complete fashion business all over Japan (and overseas, as we can see)

Finally, I have to say another thing, however some bands try to make a good contribution for Visual, I lose all respect to them as musicians... why?? I just can't imagine their life: to be recognized just because the way I look rather than the way I make and play music, and sadly, this goes for ALL the Visual Bands and members... even X Japan and Dir En Grey.

Somebody do something!!

 

[Horizon]

Holy cow!! (I hope you not to take this expression as an insult to a cow )

I never said dogs were stupid, if you take my comment as that, I have to tell you that it wasn't my purpose, to minimize animals intelligence.

I said that to express that sometimes, people and even animals just "play" a music instrument even though they are NOT musicians, the fact that you have a guitar and play one chord doesn't make you a musician... I tried to compare Mana (as a musician) with a TV show dog (poor dogs... ) because as I said, the fact that they make some melodies (NOT music at all) doesn't make them musicians, does it??

I guess... But then that's then assuming that the dog doesn't think that what it's playing is music either...-is difficult-

 

[Kinsao]

Awww, I don't mean to keep harping on this subject... after all... the visual/non-visual distinction is one that I think would be better forgotten...but I can just never keep my mouth shut! *sigh* I don't know how to quit while I'm ahead... :sorry: The fact is, I ran across 2 quotations from Eve of Destiny today (yeah, I've been having something of an "EoD-day", lol) that I thought said well what I wanted to say:

"I like to play music and for me it doesn't matter if I'm in a visual band or not as long as I like the music I make. So for me both visual and not-visual is OK."
(Kozi)

"Do not care so much about the look, listen to our music!"
(Haruhiko Ash)

Wheee! Listen to Ash!

Interesting, but I will add another topic here: if Mana (or any other VK member or band) doesn't even try to make his music better, he has 2 arguments, 1.- He is a conformist or 2.- He isn't as creative as we thought.
I don't really know which one of this 2 points fit to Mana.

Yeah, that is a good point. If a musician does not try to improve their music, I think they are not really a good musician; or at least, they will not improve but be only mediocre.

I think both of the 2 points fit Mana to some extent. I think he ended up something of conformist to the style which he had created for himself. Hmmm, I think he is creative to an extent, but maybe he doesn't so much challenge himself now and become more creative, but rather stay at the same level?

I just can't imagine their life: to be recognized just because the way I look rather than the way I make and play music

I'm sure a large number of bands find it very annoying if people see only their looks without paying due attention to the music. Even they would agree with you themself.

*hits self on head repeatedly as punishment for reviving topic which should die*
:auch: :auch:

 

[kairi~vs~rinoa]

this thread doesn't have to die kinsao, it should only be forgotten if we have another burst of arguements. but if we can discuss then it will be a good thread again. i like discussing.
that quote from Kozi is very interesting. He's focusing on the music and not on the visual which is what all music artists and fans should do.

personally, i dispise hyde fangirls and gackt fangirls. because they're so attractive they just seem to be a magnet for screaming fans. on the other hand, there are true gackt and hyde fans (like rose and horizon for example) who like their music aswell as their looks. those fans i like.
i said that last paragraph because i was witness to a gackt/hyde conversation on slsk a while back and it was not pretty.
"OMFG I LOVE HYDE!! his blonde hair is the best!"
"isn't it adorable! gackt looks so good with blonde hair too! he's so hot"
it went on for what must have been half an hour - 45 minutes. just purely commenting on how much they liked their looks. i find that quite sad (not meaning to be harsh on purpose)

i should think that gackt and hyde know how the fans react to their looks and may use that to their advantage for sales. who knows. but i think they mainly focus on their music which is respectable. if all artists think like kozi then my respect for them will be greater too. but i guess i'll never know that.

and before i get mauled by fans of [insert band name here] then in no way have i said that they purely live for what fans think of their looks. i don't know what they think so i would have no right saying that.

 

[Horizon]

They...They actually DID that? -quivers-

Oh! And (purposeful) harshness is more than just slightly fine in this particular situation.