Has Japan conquered the flu yet?

[Mark of Zorro]

Japan is probably the only country in the world where people regularly walk around with surgical style masks over their mouth and nose, even without a SARS or other virus scare. I saw a "report" on TV about how some org (probably government/BOE related) was encouraging ALL school students to wear them. It also talked about how school kids are made to wash their hands (in cold water of course, and so many students touching the same faucet knob no less) and it told of how they put alcohol-based hand cleanser in pump bottles at the school entrance for visitors to use.

I witness this stuff every working day.

So my question is, has this had ANY demonstratable effect on flu infection rates? For all this hub bub, hypochondria and near hysteria, all this effort and adherence, all these instructions and campaigns, have the Japanese managed to effect jack diddly squat?

This national obsession is getting to be about as rational as a religion methinks. And I am pretty damn sick of it and the whole lemming mentality behind it.

In fact, I think the entire thing might well be WORSE than useless, and all they are doing is promoting atopy with all that hand-washing as well as decreasing natural virus fighting ability and probably also INCREASING viral infection rates. But hey, if someone can prove me wrong, go for it.

 

[Zlarp]

I was in America and there are alcohol based hand cleansers freakin everywhere. Flu shot ads run rampant on the streets. These people must be insane! It's just the flu! It's not as if people die of that, such overreaction!

Wait... maybe people do die of the flu? Nah... I'm sure it's nothing worth worrying about. I'll just keep having people sneeze at me.

 

[Mark of Zorro]

Hey Zlarp, I am not too surprised to hear that America, the land of paranoia, has gone that direction a bit.

Yes, people with auto-immune disorders (like AIDs) and the elderly do die of the flu. Its one thing to take these precautions before entering facilities that are practically quarantined, but its quite another to have students leave school, go shopping with mom, touch everything that dad touched when he got home from his train commute, then have the kids go back to school and pretend that some hand washing and a gauze mask is warding off the flu.

Its all about as scientific as a seance, and as medically sound as open-heart surgery in a pig sty. Or so I think.

I would ask what the hell the Japanese are thinking, but I know they just aren't. Its typical obey-the-ritual Japan. If there is a chance I am wrong about anything, its the possibility that there may be some few intelligent people behind it and it actually does have a positive effect (although it still would not be worth the atopy if I am correct about that).

 

[noyhauser]

Could you of just googled it and saved us the sanctimony?

Mask use, hand hygiene, and seasonal influenza-like illness among young adults: A randomized intervention trial

Same study, just 4 years of additional research:

Pairing Masks and Handwashing Could Drastically Slow Spread of Pandemic Flu

From the last one:

A new report shows the second-year results (2007-2008) of the ground-breaking U-M M-Flu study found up to a 75 percent reduction in flu-like illness over the study period when using hand hygiene and wearing surgical masks in residence halls, says Allison Aiello, associate professor of epidemiology in the U-M School of Public Health. Aiello and Dr. Arnold Monto, SPH professor of epidemiology, are co-principal investigators of the M-Flu study.

Guess the idiotic Japanese aren't that idiotic after all.

 

[Mark of Zorro]

Could you of just googled it and saved us the sanctimony?

No. I don't even know where to begin to find direct evidence that Japan has dented flu transmission, and you sir, have not provided any.

Yes, I think we all know that IN THEORY, hand washing and masks reduces flu transmission.

And while a controlled experiment at a university residence hall might have yielded amazing results, that does not mean that in general practice there is any effect at an elementary school.

Since you have not provided one iota of direct evidence for the question, perhaps its you who should not be so sanctimonious? You have utterly failed to answer the question, and like the Japanese, you just suppose it works because of some stuff you read. And yes, that is idiotic.

 

[Zlarp]

No. I don't even know where to begin to find direct evidence that Japan has dented flu transmission, and you sir, have not provided any.

Yes, I think we all know that IN THEORY, hand washing and masks reduces flu transmission.

And while a controlled experiment at a university residence hall might have yielded amazing results, that does not mean that in general practice there is any effect at an elementary school.

Since you have not provided one iota of direct evidence for the question, perhaps its you who should not be so sanctimonious? You have utterly failed to answer the question, and like the Japanese, you just suppose it works because of some stuff you read.

Actually, you have provided no counter argument here and have not addressed the other poster at all. You simply straw-manned his argument, and you did it by disregarding facts.

 

[Mark of Zorro]

Actually, you have provided no counter argument here

If you mean no counter evidence, I have seen no direct evidence and that is why I asked for it. There is as yet no direct evidence either way, which I find astounding given Japanese rigorousness on the issue. All this running around with no proof its the right direction?? No one has cobbled together some data proving the national obsession was bearing fruit? What a joke!

If you mean a counter to his "evidence",... that I provided. What he provided is NOT evidence that flu transmission rates have been affected at schools in Japan, any org in Japan, or Japan itself. Its self-evident!

Clearly what he provided was theory and controlled experiments, which cannot be accepted as proof of events in the real world.

and have not addressed the other poster at all. You simply straw-manned his argument, and you did it by disregarding facts.

Nonsense. There is no straw man. I have not disregarded anything. I agreed that in theory and controlled experiments, hand washing and masks have an effect.

But that DOES NOT, CAN NOT prove anything with regards to the question of if flu transmission rates have actually been affected.

Does anyone even believe they have been affected by casual observation even?? And I do not mean casual observation from Switzerland and Canada!

And there are even bigger questions with regard to all this that I don't see anyone asking, and I have only touched on. Like: what will this mean for natural immunity? Will this have any effect on the creation of super bugs?

Do you really believe the Japanese are even vaguely considering such questions?? Yet they are going full speed ahead!

 

[Zlarp]

No, I have not asked for evidence, I said argument. You do not discuss, you dismiss.

 

[Mark of Zorro]

I dismissed nothing. I accept that the theories and experiments hold potential. I just don't see any evidence that the Japanese have realized the potential.

If anyone does think they have realized the potential, I have to wonder why. What else is there to discuss?

 

[Mark of Zorro]

Look, if anyone actually believes the flu transmission rates have been dropped for any group in Japan, you don't need any proof to have an opinion. But I am curious if anyone holds such an opinion and why.

Does anyone actually believe this?

 

[SevenStarsHK2N]

The masks do not stop you contracting flu - but do impact the likely hood of transmitting the disease.

FLU will never die - it's scientifically impossible to wipe out with our current medical technology

 

[Glenski]

The report shows a controlled study in which people who used face masks and handwashing (under specific conditions) has fewer incidences of flu.

So, based on scientific theory, if you have similar conditions elsewhere, this will work, too.

Has such a study been conducted in Japan? I don't know. Look it up if you want, but the bottom line is my second sentence.

I think the entire thing might well be WORSE than useless, and all they are doing is promoting atopy with all that hand-washing as well as decreasing natural virus fighting ability and probably also INCREASING viral infection rates. But hey, if someone can prove me wrong, go for it.

We don't have to prove you wrong. This is just your opinion. If you have any facts to support it, then we can make a stab at proving you right or wrong.

Got any?

Or what would you say to this report from Germany?
The role of facemasks and hand hygiene in the prevention of influenza transmission in households: results from a cluster randomised trial; Berlin, Germany, 2009-2011 - BMC Infectious Diseases

 

[Mark of Zorro]

If you have any facts to support it, then we can make a stab at proving you right or wrong.

Got any?

You have got the wrong end of the stick here. Anyone supporting the time and money spent on this activity are the ones who need to justify it. If I went out of my way to prove its a farce with scientific data it would be a service, but its not really my prerogative.

Japan Today has asked about this before, and did again just after I did. How useful are face masks in helping combat the spread of flu and colds? ? Japan Today: Japan News and Discussion

Do you think those white face masks that are so popular in Japan are effective in combating allergies or the flu?

And some good points were brought up, but nobody has a clear answer.

If this were NOT idiocy the proof would be out there for all to see. Its not. Therefore, its idiocy.

The report shows a controlled study

A public school is pretty freaking far from a controlled study. The masks are not being replaced often, but rather worn day after day. The students and teachers constantly fiddle with them, touching them with hands that touched god knows what, so as to pull them so as to be heard. This is a school after all. Some people cover only their mouths but not their nose with the mask. Some seem to cover only their chin and under-jaw! And its only gauze and its not the high grade surgical stuff it would need to be.

Again, this is NOT a controlled study and NOT a controlled enviroment.

The expense and time MUST be justified somehow, but it isn't. If its a misconception it needs to be address so as to not promote even more stupidity, but it isn't. Therefore, its stupid.

 

[Zlarp]

Mark of Zorro has no proof that his existence has any merit. I therefore proclaim, going after his own argument, that he should cease existing at once if he can not or will not proof me wrong. The burden of proof is on him, anything else would be stupid.

 

[Mark of Zorro]

Mark of Zorro has no proof that his existence has any merit. I therefore proclaim, going after his own argument, that he should cease existing at once if he can not or will not proof me wrong. The burden of proof is on him, anything else would be stupid.

Insert your own name in that stupid statement. It does not even have the redeeming quality of humor.

 

[Zlarp]

No, *you're* stupid!

 

[Mark of Zorro]

No, *you're* stupid!

We are all stupid!

But at least I am smart enough to admit it!

But note that I said your statement was stupid, not you. You switched to insults.

 

[Tamayo]

I've always wondered why Japan was so clean. I definitely appreciate that the society in general is neat, tidy and clean, but the extent to which they worry about it is slightly unsettling. They have access to just as much medical knowledge as we have in the US -- I wonder why it is that they allow their immune systems to be so much weaker, and on a mass scale?

What I know is that surgical masks and alcohol DO help, but only when it comes to not wanting to catch a disease. All of the precautions Japan takes not only do nothing to mitigate the deadliness of an illness, they in fact make it deadlier. I'd personally prefer not to be so paranoid about cleanliness if it meant that serious illness wasn't as big of an issue, but maybe that's just because I can't really imagine it any other way, being in America and all.

I'm pretty interested in knowing why Japan does this.