What to do (Arab Spring)?

[noyhauser]

The Arab world needs a real democracy or Caliph System witch fits 100%...

I'm all for democracy, but having closely observed a number of democratizing efforts in the developing world, I think its far harder than you might think it is. Lets consider Tunisia; highly educated, strong middle class, a parliamenthas had some history of free-ish elections. It has a institutional foundation to create a more legitimate and representative government. Frankly, Most of the Arab world does not.... and the outcome of any sort of revolt, even if successful is very unlikely to produce the results you and many young Arabs want.

Why did the people of Tunisia revolt? Sure their government was corrupt, everybody knew that. What set them off was inflation of basic goods and a deteriorating job market.

Your other suggestion illustrates I think the naiveness of Arab society when it comes to government. You call for caliphs, and I know many individuals who do. Here is my question, given the concerns of the Tunisian people, what does caliphs have as an advantage over democracy? Lets be perfectly frank here; they have no education in economic management or social issues. Other examples of theocracies (Iran, Afghanistan) show just how bad a caliph system can get in the modern world.

And what would such a system look in practice in a place like KSA? We've seen a slow radicalization of the Ulema. I'm not saying that it would be a hardline government, but I doubt it would be anymore free. What you're doing right now, discussing on the internet, would almost assuredly be banned. Do you agree with the position of the Ulema now on everything? Because if a caliph system came into place, that is the position they would take. And you would have less of an opportunity to criticize their policies; any criticism would be against the word of god.

So why would you support such a system if you want a better life for yourself... that is unless you are such a deep believer in Islam that your main and only concern. Something tells me that's not the case.

The fall of Tunisian dictator is the begining of another age in Arab world.

Is it though? Don't get me wrong, I think reform is happening. However I don't believe that its going to be the start of something big. I think you'll see some small reforms, but nothing big in most places.


Oh, if you're interested and (able to view it) this is a good discussion on the events in Tunisia by two Arab experts.

Bloggingheads.tv

 

[Hezam]

To non-muslims,Caliph system is a strict religious system like Iran/Saudi Arabia/Taliban,And poor education/economic/..etc.
OK...well it's the opposite.
Let me ask you something,In what period were Muslims educated ? When did muslims create the science that we use these days ?

Caliph is better than democracy as we tried it in the past,It's a nation that never been in any other period before Islam.
Caliph made a very huge nation for all people who came from different places and different races,It was like heaven...but what is written in the western books is mostly fake.
Saudi and Iran and Afghanistan are not Caliph and won't be...They are very strict as we never seen before.
honestly the system in Saudi & Iran are dictators.
Have you read about Caliphates ? And how educated they were ?
And example for one of them :
Mehmed II spoke eight languages (including Turkish, Greek, Hebrew, Arabic, Persian, French, Latin and Serbian) when he was 21 years old (the age at which he conquered Constantinople)
see Here

The Caliphate must be very honorable and educated,take the Islamic golden age for example:
Islamic Golden age

You will understand why we want Caliph very badly.
I hope you read the links...

Please browse this website :
http://www.1001inventions.com/

Can i get a reply from you about the 1001inventions please ?

 

[Tokis-Phoenix]

I wish 2011 got off to a different beat. :/

Things aren't really going to get any better, life goes on regardless though, so look after yourself and your friends & family and make the best of what you can ^_^v .

 

[Haruspex]

To non-muslims,Caliph system is a strict religious system like Iran/Saudi Arabia/Taliban,And poor education/economic/..etc.
OK...well it's the opposite.
Let me ask you something,In what period were Muslims educated ? When did muslims create the science that we use these days ?

In the mediaeval era when Europeans were escaping from diseases to the sewers hoping that the foul smell would ward off the demons that caused illnesses. We belong to the same species yet there are two contradictory results. Could that mean that we overlooked something? Perhaps we have overlooked general attitudes and views?

Caliph is better than democracy as we tried it in the past,It's a nation that never been in any other period before Islam.

There are no 'special' states. There are forms of governance only and the Caliphate falls under one such form of governance too.

Caliph made a very huge nation for all people who came from different places and different races,It was like heaven...but what is written in the western books is mostly fake.

Life back in the days was ****. In the Muslim world most lived vastly more 'pleasant' lives than in the west, but it was, ultimately, still pretty damn hard and far from fair and just as it is understood today, or hell, even back then. Nothing good comes from romanticising a centuries old, fairly dated state. It was what it was, one of the greatest states of its time, but mark the past tense.

Mehmed II spoke eight languages (including Turkish, Greek, Hebrew, Arabic, Persian, French, Latin and Serbian) when he was 21 years old (the age at which he conquered Constantinople)
see Here
The Caliphate must be very honorable and educated,take the Islamic golden age for example:
Islamic Golden age
You will understand why we want Caliph very badly.
I hope you read the links...

Here we go again. In almost every culture, there are those who, from time to time, revive the idea that it would be great to have platonic philosopher kings. We're living in the 21st century, maybe it's time to start thinking more about rights, freedoms and most importantly profane interests and less about honour and morality and whatnot?

Please browse this website :
http://www.1001inventions.com/
Can i get a reply from you about the 1001inventions please ?

The western capitalist profit machine shits out invention after invention. Following this logic free market capitalism is what people should be jerking off to, which sounds a bit suspicious, to be honest.

 

[noyhauser]

Hezam, I've heard this arguments many many times before... and you've mischaracterized my point. And I do realize that this was a great period of history. One of my favorite books is is Ibn Khaldun's Muqaddima. I read and cite it regularly with my work.

But this is my point; just because it worked in the 8th to 12th century does not mean it will work now. If we look at the study of governance in the past 2000 years, the industrial revolution and the post WWII period create far greater demands on states operations. The complexity of running a state requires an more than just enlightenment, but a great understanding of how economy and society operates.

The reason why I bring up Iran is not because its a strict theocracy; I could care less if it was. Its more illuminating to see how badly the state has mismanaged its economy. It illustrates to me how a system with a religious basis is not effective at running a modern state.

Moreover nothing in current history suggest that an "enlightened leader" will emerge.I assume these caliphs would be based on the current Ulema... and there are very very few in positions of power that actually advocate for the moderation which is similar to the balanced rule of the Umayyad and Abbasaid Khalifate. Instead most call for far more restrictive interpretations of Islam that did not exist during the Khalifate, and would stifle innovation today.

 

[Hezam]

But this is my point; just because it worked in the 8th to 12th century does not mean it will work now. If we look at the study of governance in the past 2000 years, the industrial revolution and the post WWII period create far greater demands on states operations. The complexity of running a state requires an more than just enlightenment, but a great understanding of how economy and society operates.

It seems like i didn't understand your point,Actually i agree 100% with you,And i didn't mean that we should bring back the old system of economy because we must update all the systems,Who in the earth will make deals in the old ways

Malaysia is one of the best example for Islamic economic systems,although it's not 100% islamic but it's the best one.

The reason why I bring up Iran is not because its a strict theocracy; I could care less if it was. Its more illuminating to see how badly the state has mismanaged its economy. It illustrates to me how a system with a religious basis is not effective at running a modern state.

Iran and Saudi Arabia want to keep power on people using the religion,that's why both people in Saudi & Iran feel sick of the systems.

And by the way,Umayyad,Abbasid,Ottoman are not Caliph but Kingdoms as prophet Mohammad (PBUH) called them,Caliph is similar as democracy,made by elections.
We need democracy,the reason why we hate it because we couldn't have it,all what we got is dictators calling them selves democratic.

Moreover nothing in current history suggest that an "enlightened leader" will emerge.I assume these caliphs would be based on the current Ulema... and there are very very few in positions of power that actually advocate for the moderation which is similar to the balanced rule of the Umayyad and Abbasaid Khalifate. Instead most call for far more restrictive interpretations of Islam that did not exist during the Khalifate, and would stifle innovation today.

I agree,This is a very good post.
Caliph is not based on Ulema and that's the point.

 

[Elizabeth van Kampen]

I guess that dictators can oppress their people only as long as it takes.
History from all over the world has shown us such a million of times.
All nations are the same for we take as much as we can and then we stop accepting the dictatorships.
Who knows that all this might be the beginning of better times?

 

[mohamed]

i think forgirner countries like us,france,china, supporting stability in the Arab countries , whatever damage to civilians , whatever the damage in the future for themselves , i remember that the French foreign minister said that she want to send support to bn ali to keep bring the stablility back , but that was big mistake , cuz that show the blind support .

 

[Hezam]

Length of rule :
-Libya (Qathafi) 41 years.
- Egypt (Hosni Mubarak) 30 years.
- Iraq (Saddam) 25 years.
- Yemen (Saleh) 32 years.
- Tunisia (Bin Ali) 23 years.
- Sudan (Al Bashir) 23 years.
- Algeria (Bu Tafliqah) 12 yeas.
- Syria (Al-Asad) 10 years after his father (30 years).

These are the repulics,And the other countries are kingdoms :
First Saudi Arabia (1744).
Second Saudi Arabia (1824).
Third Saudi Arabia (1926) the current one..Same Royal Family for all.
Jordan (1946).
Morocco (1956).
Qatar,Kuwait,Bahrain,UAE,Oman are kingdoms too.

I'm amazed by Japan,they change the government every 2 years !

 

[mohamed]

they support husni mubark cuz they need suze canel

 

[Hezam]

they support husni mubark cuz they need suze canel

They support him for several reasons,the most important reason is to keep israel safe from the west as they secured the easter region (Jordan).
Their end is soon.

 

[mohamed]

Yes mr.hazem
as i know they send the wopens to israel by suze canel

 

[Hezam]

Sadui old man burned himself today,He is 60.
Also Sudani guy and Morocco two guys burned themselves.
Mauritanian man tied after burning himself.

Of course those dictators don't care.

 

[Hezam]

The biggest protesting in Egypt started two days ago and there are 4 killed and hundreds of arrested..

The security are shooting the people !

I hope they continue until the dictator fall and run like Bin Ali.

 

[mohamed]

ohhh ,, brother hazem
4 hours am i'm trying to write her , the internet in egypt become very bad , gov control it , websites load very slow and some don't even open like facebook , but it now work again ,...

i wish this dictator fall , if the muslim brothers go to the street , i think they will do something , any way am watching al-jazeera and i hope gov do somethig good for poor people .

 

[Hezam]

Tomorrow Friday the biggest protest will start after Jum'a prayer.

I just knew that there are a huge protest in Yemen,Tens of thousands in the Capital San'a are protesting against the government and the corruption.

Syria blocked Twitter and Egypt cut phone service in Sues,Algerian government makes some changes (lies).
Libya is preparing and Let's wait and see and hope.

 

[Hezam]

Second Dictator fall
Thanks God,The mother of earth has been freed...
Next is Syria....

This day is one of the best days i've lived.

Congratulations mohamed
Congratulations all Arab & Muslims.

 

[noyhauser]

He hasn't fallen yet. My question is who will be the first government to use severe repression and violence. Its going to happen, maybe Egypt will fall, but someone will. I'm surprised that Mubarak is that weak, then again looking back there were some signs.

Egypt I think is in a tough position; it relies more on the West than other states. The United States has already said that it may cut military aid if this continues and tourists have stopped coming to the country. Using violence is difficult in its case because it may cause damage to its state. I think its still 50/50 whether it will fall.

Syria, being the pariah it is, doesn't care. It already uses harsh repression to carry out its policies anyway, so you'll see the same thing as Iran last year if things gets out of hand. Other countries are somewhere between very repressive and slightly repressive. I suspect the monarchies are far more stable and will use violence if need be.

 

[Hezam]

maybe Egypt will fall

Not Egypt,the dictator who will fall (actually he did).

I'm surprised that Mubarak is that weak, then again looking back there were some signs.

As you know all Arab dictators are very weak,it's America who control them and now that hand must be CUT.

Jordan is closer than Syria,...The son of the traitor will fall.

the USA are making deals with the Egyptian military now so let's keep watching.

Mauritania-Libya-Algeria-Morocco-Jordan-Syria- and Mahmood Abbas on the black list.

 

[noyhauser]

Not Egypt,the dictator who will fall (actually he did).

Um, no he hasn't. At least not yet. Maybe he will, maybe he won't be removed. I wouldn't be so sure just yet.

As you know all Arab dictators are very weak,it's America who control them and now that hand must be CUT.

Yes, of course, its "America" fault. I hoped more from this conversation, but I guess its always going to be like this.

 

[Hezam]

He just said his last speech,He shot himself

Yes, of course, its "America" fault. I hoped more from this conversation, but I guess its always going to be like this.

Do you hate the truth ? =\

Anyway,You will see what will happen.

 

[noyhauser]

He just said his last speech,He shot himself
Do you hate the truth ? =\
Anyway,You will see what will happen.

No, I hate ignorance and intolerance. Anti-Americanism is just one example of it.

 

[Hezam]

No, I hate ignorance and intolerance. Anti-Americanism is just one example of it.

This comment shows the experience level of who posted it.
ignorance,intolerance,Anti-Americanism.
Great!

 

[Grandpa Frank]

My worry is...........

will the replacement/new government be any better for the people?? Finding leaders who care more about helping their people/country than they do about making themselves rich and powerful seems to be impossible no matter what part of the world you live in. Religious extremists and military leaders are sure to try and fill the new power void and the people will suffer if they succeed?

Uncle Frank

 

[Hezam]

For the million time,i'm not anti-Americanism...WHat i said above was qouted from an article in the Guardian:
White House wobbles on Egyptian tightrope
White House wobbles on Egyptian tightrope | Simon Tisdall

Uncle Frank,you always focus on the point and your concern is understandable,There alot of educated persons in Egypt thousands of them,i trust the egyptian people.

thank you.