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Why do Muslim women wear veils?

Bruno i will answer your statement, but first i have to read the article to finish. Maybe 3 hour later i have my freetime. This is John Perkins if im not mistaken? confession of economic hitman author? i do sometimes quote his statement, and i do understand why my brother Hezam being suprise.

It will not fair for u if i hasten to reply while im not finishing reading your full article, if i put refrence i want other read it fully, so i do apply the same manner toward other. Even im not accepting whole of John Perkins ideas, but i do can benefit myself from reading him.
 
But :
'Scientific research in the Muslim world declined and the intellectual environment became inhospitable to the open and honest exchange of ideas.'
Prosperity and the rise and fall of Islam


Amma Ba'du

I have finish reading your article, its not like what i expected. Also its not John Perkins that once i had thought, this is John "L" Perkins, not John Perkins.

I found this essay contain lots of unjust tendescies, i can understand if it was writen by an early modern writer like Bentrand Russel, but i cant imagine that kind of writer are still exist until this very sunny bunny day.

The Meaning Of Itjtihad

Ok lets start the discussion.

There is no such thing as Islam forbiding technology research or quest of knowledge. U must know that in Quran the word "ILM" (knowledge) are one of the many word that oftenly repeat. And book of Allah or Kitabullah, put a very a high attention and prestige for those who possess intelegence.

What u see on muslim world today, on variety aspect such like economy, social, technology, etc its a cause of many factor. Also it just appear as a cycle of history, try to think more dialectic, reality and fact are not stable, one can't judge another by his/her condition today, because there was yesterday, and there will be still tomorow. And the cause of our downfall is nothingless and nothing more because we are (the Muslim) being seperated by the book of Allah, but now i sense an awakening among the muslim. This fact are very contrary compare to what John L Perkins had said.

He try to mix closing the door of itjtihad with closing the door of research and intelectual developtment. He twist the meaning intentionally, closing the door of itjtihad in this term are more regarding to internal religious affair that connect with things like fatwa. Closing to itjtihad mean that the door for fatwa that already being fixed by the early muslim or the salaf are not to be change, this statement are for the Muthazillah. Its really un-related issue and he can be consider putting the wrong argument to construct a false understanding and misguiding for noobs Islam learner.

Its appear as an empty bullets to attack the muslim. As it will not hurt the mukmin, and those who have knowledge about Islam.

Leonardo Of Pisa and the quest of founding number

Muslim contribution to the world of science seems to be simplify. He only credit the muslim for contribute world of science in europe by introducing numerical simplification.

Its start when Leonardo Of Pisa from north Italy, go to the Muslim world to studying math, or Aljabar, and share the knowledge that further will contributing part of europe renaissance by one of his book "The Book of Calculation" or in the original language is "Liber Abaci" wrote in 1202.
But he (J. Perkins) not mention about muslim contribution to the world on Chemistry, and in the early time we not call it chemistry but Al-khemi or Alchemy. Further the basic logic of algorism or al-goritma. And we still seeing the trace of it until this very day, as all university bachelor are being call Alumni, from the word "Al-Alim" or The-man of knowledge.

If i mention the list still goes on, and this post are began to tiring to read, it expand from post to essay and essay to article but i wont let that happen.

What if i tell u, there are those who try to burry the muslim magnificient contribution to put the very foundation of knowledge now adays?

I can show you tons of evidence, but let me tell u the most common one, one that u can found even on your bbc knowledge because this fact cant being avoid or cover anymore, as it now clear being reveal and exposed.

Once upon The Time in 1950 : Copernicus Plagiarism

In 1950, several scholars, including Otto Neugebauer, of Brown University; Edward Kennedy, of the American University of Beirut; Noel Swerdlow, of the University of Chicago; and George Saliba, of Columbia University, reexamined Copernicus's mathematics.

They found that to revolutionize astronomy Copernicus needed two theorems not developed by the ancient Greeks. Neugebauer pondered this problem: did Copernicus construct these theorems himself or did he borrow them from some non-Greek culture? Meanwhile, Kennedy, working in Beirut, discovered astronomical papers written in Arabic and dated before A.D. 1350. The documents contained unfamiliar geometry. While visiting the United States, he showed them to Neugebauer.

Neugebauer recognized the documents' significance immediately. They contained geometry identical to Copernicus's model for lunar motion. Kennedy's text was written by the Damascene astronomer Ibn al-Shatir, who died in 1375. His work contained, among other things, a theorem employed by Copernicus that was originally devised by another Islamic astronomer, Nasir al-Din al-Tusi, who lived some three hundred years before Copernicus.

Thinking and Islam

I notice, uncle Frank, said something like "put our thinking caps" remind me of Edward De Bono, i remember, there are one of my relative, seeing Edward De Bono ask, "can everyone provide me, how many counts the word of thinking mention in Quran?" no answer. If someone answer it, then the number will be abundance. Thinking is a work of deed in Quran, and its mention and massively repeat quantation, with many word, it can "hijr", it can be "aql", it can be "tafakur", Quran describe thinking in many words with form, variation, type and meaning. This is a religion for those who think, how can be this such religion forbid research activity, this is a fraud claim. It contradict reality.

But bruno, i do enjoy my discussion with u, and Hezam said the right things, europe encounter the economical depression by quest to the east, establisihing the concept of imperialism which is "gold, glory and gospel"

Reading The Quran to know Better

as a closure, allow me to quote Quran ayah 189-191 are picturing how contemplation, deep thought and thinking are ibadah or form of good deeds in Islam, while i cant find recitation only recording to that ayah, but i found recitation on 189-195 in Ali Imran. So i add further translation if everyone want to know the meaning, if it seems unworthy, freely no need to read it. i do pray everyone of us take benefit from every muslim post in this forum :

Ali Imran-click to hear how it recite.

189. And to Allah belongs the dominion of the heaven and the earth, and Allah have power over all things.

190. Verily! In the creation of the heavens and the earth and in the alternation of night and day, there are indeed signs for men of understanding.

191. Those who remember Allah standing, sitting and lying down on their sides, and think deeply about the creation of the heavens and the earth, (saying) : "Our Lord! You have not created this without purpose, glory to You. Give us salvation from the torment of the fire.


192. Our Lord! Verily, whom you admit to the fire, indeed, you have disgraced him and never wil the zalimun (wrong doers) find any helpers.

193. Our Lord! Verily, we have heard the call of one calling to faith : 'believe in your Lord, and we have believed. Our Lord! forgive us our sins and remit from us our evil deeds, and make us die in the state of the righteousness along with Al-Abrar.

194. Our Lord grants us what you promised unto us through your messenger and disgrace us not on the day of resuccrection, for you never break promise.

195. So their Lord accepted of them, "never will i allow to be lost the work of any of you, be he male or female. You are (members) one of another, so those who emirgrated and were driven out from their homes and suffered harm in My cause, and who fought and were killed, verily, i will remit from them their evil deeds and admit them in the gardens under which rivers flows (paradise) a reward from Allah, and Allah is the best of rewards.
 
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i can't attach any URL or Videos because the number of my posts is not enogh
I look over some islamic laws and I see some evry barabric practices and ones that belong in the Dark Ages. Death for witchcraft in Saudi Arabia. I mean what, witchcraft?


Are you pleased with what the witchcraft do ???!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
They are killing people with lie, harm, sorcery things which some time lead to death, i konw many people got hurt because of witchcraft, they for example cause diseases to people and sometimes there is no cure to that disease
They cause frustration for people
they don't want to do any good but harming and lying to any society
and you are pleased with what they do!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
this is a true false claim. Its weak from the root of the argument. Even the jew are better and more fair then u, even we battling them for over 50 year in palestine.
Hear from them the etimology of the word Allah swt.
Allah : Etimollogy
Insulting isnt the way to proove you are right and other wrong. Its weak to the root.
An idiot on Youtube. Nice work. Okay history lesson. Yahweh, the jewish god from which the christians took on as their own god and which Mohammad identified with Allah is originally a Canaanite god which the Hebrews called Yahweh.
Encyclopedia Mythica.
Allah itself is a pre-islamic diety who had three daughters.
Encyclopedia Mythica
Because it Yahweh and Allah are both creator gods Mohammad identified them as the same god. Ultimately the god from which they both can be traced back to is the Canaanite god El.

Insulting isnt the way to proove you are right and other wrong. Its weak to the root.
I am not insulting you. I give you facts and you give me a yahoo on youtube.

How many black magic performer have i met?
wasn't the question I asked? I asked how many witches have you known.

Hezam said:
Maybe he needs to visit Babel/India/Indonesia/Morocco to see how it works by his own eyes.
My family suffered from witchcraft...
How so? Ever thought there might be a more rational explanation? I don't know about you, but I have yet to see or meet any type of witchcraft that cannot be debunked.
If a witch threatened me with "magic" I'd laugh at them. I even have a book of spells given to me. Load of woo and BS. I equate a belief in witchcraft along with a belief in faires at the bottom of the garden. It is superstition and I don't believe a word of it.
 
An idiot on Youtube. Nice work. Okay history lesson. Yahweh, the jewish god from which the christians took on as their own god and which Mohammad identified with Allah is originally a Canaanite god which the Hebrews called Yahweh.
Encyclopedia Mythica.

Let me show you who is the idiot, your refrence said El as a caanite God that connect with the myth of Baal also has relation with YHW and El Elyon (The Most High).

That is quite ignorance must said, so, how about El- Shaddai in jew which mean the most powerful does it have a connection with Baal and horn creature moronic pokemon? how about EL Gibbor which mean the Most Greatest? How about Bab-el?

El mean God. Ilah, Eloh, Eel. Just a plain God. Bab-el mean gate of God.
Its like you saw some one saying

"do you know i worship cat as my God" and he show you his cat "this is God"

and you come to this association,

"so... the things that christian worship after all this time that he call God God God, it actualy a cat, God is a cat."

U use a junk argumentation that come from Robert Murray and Ditlef Nielsen i know them years and inshallah i refute them, they do nothing then just playing game on twisting words, but hey, it becoming a boomerang who thrown back to their own face because they worship the exactly same God.

That is why, in arabic, we use the words Allah, from the etimology Al-Ilah, The God. And the fact that man worship a false God or a false Ilah, so there are words call

La-Ilah Ha Illallah, No Ilah but Allah.

Comparing to your resource, that lack of etimology detail and connection to history explanation, my resource are more detail on both etimological explanation and history connection between those language. Beside saying this idiot and that stupid it need explanation it cant being thrown without responsibility. If it appear on youtube it dont mean to be idiot, as you quote an open refrence like wikipedia even i check and read it, in youtube there are even Noam Chomsky, Dr Finklestein, everybody was on youtube, you cant generalize it by saying it "idiot". ?

Now i already give you my reason why your source idiot, before you answering my statement, im first want to hear on your responsibility as an educated man on what explanation that you saying my resource are just an idiot that talking on youtube.

I mean, you do have a reason for that, or u dont? try to be more educated. SHow some responsible on your statment.

Allah itself is a pre-islamic diety who had three daughters.
Encyclopedia Mythica
Because it Yahweh and Allah are both creator gods Mohammad identified them as the same god. Ultimately the god from which they both can be traced back to is the Canaanite god El.
I am not insulting you. I give you facts and you give me a yahoo on youtube.
wasn't the question I asked? I asked how many witches have you known.

Caanite God El if being translate will be "caanite God God", you really dont know what you are talking about.

I could YAWN right now.

And no, Allah dont have any daughter, read Al-Ikhlas

Say thou: He is Allah the One. (1) Allah, the Independent. (2) He begets not, nor was He begotten. (3)
And never there has been anyone co-equal with him. (4)


Try to undrestand Islam, we said to you we worship Allah, The God of Abraham or Ibrahim as, The God of Musa as or Moses, The God Of Isa as or Jesus. But you said, "no you worshiping different God" i mean what?

We said to u, Allah dont have Son and no He dont have any father or mother, its written in the Quran, He is Begets not nor was He Begotten. And you said "No he have a daughter!"
:eek:

Then maybe after this post you said "you worship the moon!" (i know Myc, its a clear oppening for me) and we said no, this is the verses

Surah 41:37
And from among His Signs are the night and the day, and the sun and the moon. Prostrate not to the sun nor to the moon, but prostrate to Allah Who created them, if you (really) worship Him.


The moon and the Sun is nothing but creation. "no you are not!"

can you sense something not right about it? Something unjust? we being force for something we are not?

While there are religion who believe that God have a son. ANd yes they clearly state it. And they will be gladly if u said to them God have a son, but please it will be stupid if u keep forcing it to us. It just bloody ingorance things to do.
 
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How so? Ever thought there might be a more rational explanation? I don't know about you, but I have yet to see or meet any type of witchcraft that cannot be debunked.
If a witch threatened me with "magic" I'd laugh at them. I even have a book of spells given to me. Load of woo and BS. I equate a belief in witchcraft along with a belief in faires at the bottom of the garden. It is superstition and I don't believe a word of it.
well thats for you, i will not tell u to fear at witchcraft it will be a stupid things to tell, i will embrassed myself for that.
But not a thing exclusively being done by those who not appear modern, as you see at the interview, they are quite influental peoples who do such thing. I heard Mason also have kind of "ritual" with hexagram symbol etc. And remember when they said some one put a spell on you they said some one "hex" you in english. Because they put "hexagram" symbol to start to doing it, that is why it call "hex". Search the etimology.
 
wasn't the question I asked? I asked how many witches have you known.
forgot to answer this

many, the demonstration? i look people eating lamp, dishes, glass like a crispy snack. Its call tekbal, or stoneskin. Also there were santet its like a voodoo in africa, and simliar in other country and region. Using medium like doll or other thing, and using needle, glass, to hurt the victim.

The root are from the early ancestor religion, it can be sometime called kejawen in java, which kejawen can both appear as spiritual believe or sometimes as a practicer of black magic or ilmu hitam or witch craft.

I bet u not interest with the subject, as im not. Its ok if you are not believe it. But man like them are bring lots of trouble here, like Sumanto who practies cannibalism, or Dukun As who do rapery on virgins.

Yea they all similiar. Different name but the exactly same act.
 
i saw this pictures and i said that i should share it her with jerf family



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Is there no Muslim here to answer these questions in a scientific way?
Well, I'll do
But first I ask everyone here to respect Islamic tradition, and not to ridicule it

There are many different types of veils, which are also worn in different ways. But why do muslim women wear veils?

good question
There are several reasons
First: Veil is obedience
In obedience to ِAllah who ordered Muslim women to veil and we Muslims obey Allah and obey the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) in any matter that commands us to do without discussion because we believe that Allah and His Messenger, tells us what is good for us
God says in the Qur'an 33/59
"O Prophet! Tell thy wives and thy daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks close round them (when they go abroad). That will be better, so that they may be recognised and not annoyed. Allah is ever Forgiving, Merciful. (59)"

second: veil is chastity
Islamic religion prohibits adultery (any sexual relationship between men and women, except for marriage) and therefore it should close all the ports that lead to adultery and including the revealing of women, which raises men to fall into adultery
And of course I will not speak here about the evils of adultery, because everybody knows it

Third: Veil is Protection
Yes, to protect the woman from the man who do not want frome her only to satisfy his sexual desires and then just throw her like a garbage

The true lover of the woman must marry her, and he knows what are the requirements for marriage For example protection and spending, and sponsorship to make her able to do its duty as a mother





thats for now and i will answer the rest of the questions later

see you and good bye
 
mohamed: I'm all for Muslim women adhering to hijab if they wish to. What I have an issue with is when Muslim women who don't want to wear a veil have acid thrown in their face. Surely we can all agree that the latter is inherently evil and should be condemned, if not prevented through social activism.
 
brother Thor
all womens who ware veils are do it with Full satisfaction , and if any girl ware it and she don't like , she ware it just until she go out of home to make her family be satisfied then she but it in his bag , that only with the strict family, and it's toooooo hard to find some thing like that, i don't say that's right ,but what i am trying to say that any one want to do any thing , he do it ,even there's a grils in my country prevented from entering the building housing the foreign students cuz they don't want to ware it off, and they go back to them cities , cuz all girls like ware it
 
Hmmm..............

The general idea i have gotten about Muslim women wearing veils is that;

a. Muslim women have modesty. A Muslim womans modesty is her body, and so to cover up her body is to protect her modesty.

b. There is a miriad of different types of veils- some only cover the hair (and the covering of the hair seems to be a major theme of all veils), some cover the face and others cover the whole body etc. If covering the body is to protect modesty, the reason why there is such a miriad of veils is because people have different idea's on how much is needed to be covered up for a Muslim woman to be considered properly modest.

c. If a Muslim woman does not cover up though, she is not protecting her modesty by "showing off" her body. A womans body is beautiful and can be used to attract men. But there are few or no cases where it is considered acceptable for a Muslim woman to attract men using her body.

When a Muslim woman doesn't cover up herself adequately (by the standards of her people), people are suspicious and say/think "Who is she trying to impress?". Guys will look at her and see that she isn't covered up properly and so immediately assume that she must be looking for some male fun because she isn't covering up her body/modesty properly.

Most Muslim girls are expected to save their virginity for marriage (which will be arranged by her parents or family). Dating leads to sexual temptations and so dating is frowned upon. So a good Muslim girl will cover up her body so she doesn't attract guys.
But after marriage, she is still expected to cover up in public- her body should be for her husbands eyes only, so if she goes out inadequately covered then people think "Who is she trying to impress?". People assume that despite being married, she must be trying to attract other men if she's not covering herself up properly.

Ultimately it appears that Muslim women should cover themselves up adequately at all times in public if they are to give the impression they are not trying to attract unwelcome male attention.

I have seen numerous news stories over the years of Muslim women/girls being raped in conservative Muslim countries, but the charges against the rapist/s being dropped when it was found out the that women/girl in question was not covered up properly clothes-wise (like she was wearing a short skirt or a low cut top)- the judge simply says to such rape victims "If you didn't want sex then why did you dress so immodestly? You were obviously asking for it by the way you were dressing, so you got what you deserved".

We in the West are appalled by cases like this! That it is ok to abuse women if they're not covered up properly.

But as to whether veils are religious or cultural, i think that perhaps its more about insecurity.

For example...
I had a friend who for years, put a lot of effort into her appearance (especially when going out at the weekends). She spent time every morning putting on her makeup, making her hair look nice, choosing good looking outfits etc. When we went out together on nights out we would both dress up sexy (low cut tops, short skirts etc) because it was fun ("you only live once!"). I was in (and still am in) a long term relationship with my guy, she was single (my guy has no issue with me dressing up sexy BTW, he enjoys it in fact and is happy that i still put lots of effort into my appearance even though we have been together for over 8 years etc).

But eventually she got into a relationship with this guy called Dan (by the way neither my friend nor this Dan guy were or are Muslim). As a friend, he was a great guy- always funny, loud & full of energy, a real character on a night out. But it become apparent that after my friend got into relationship with him, he was a much different character- behind closed doors he was insecure, controlling & paranoid.

I started to notice my friend changing as her relationship with him got more long term- she stopped wearing makeup, stopped dressing up sexy, started putting on weight and was just generally putting less effort into her appearance. She was happy yet depressed at the same time. One day i spoke to her about her changes (there was obviously something not right) and she eventually admitted to me that she was doing this because of Dan. Because increasingly everytime when she put effort into her appearance like putting on some good makeup or wearing sexy underwear or clothes, he went to her and said "Who are you trying to impress?".

Even though she was completely faithful to him and gave him no reason to suspect she wasn't faithful, he was so insecure, paranoid & controlling he couldn't handle her looking good in case she attracted any other male attention. His philosophy to her was "Well now you're in a relationship with me why do you need to wear sexy clothes on nights out etc, unless you're trying to attract other guys?". He even didn't like her having any friends that were guys (even guys who she had been friends with since they were little kids and were more like brother & sister).

So yeah. The whole "Who are you trying to impress?" idea is not something that only Muslim men get- plenty of non-Muslim guys get it too. Not just that, but even girls/women can get insecure about their men (plenty of other stories about such cases). But either way, no matter whether its in a Muslim or non-Muslim context i think most people in the West look down on this controlling (even emotionally blackmailing) insecure behaviour.

I also find it interesting that while women are considered to be bodies of extreme temptation and must cover themselves up properly at all times to stop men being tempted by their bodies, no one seems to think that a guy can use his body to attract women? That the concept of male modesty is ridiculous? I think this is why a lot of people view veils as sexist.
 
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There's no way around it, most of us are at least subconsciously considering new mates. A man may not have gotten his genes to the next generation were his fiance having affairs with guys that wouldn't commit but had better genes than him, especially considering that a lot of children just didn't make it to having their own kids even 200 years ago.

So a man needs to protect against the guy with perhaps more compatible genes, and the woman needs to protect against loss of support for her children. A guy with good genes will get lots of female interest can afford to invest heavily in one they feel is the best, but go for side dishes as well, but at the same time, what if a side dish becomes a main investment, well for the kids of the first woman, that won't bode well at all. Thus she hates infidelity.

He hates infidelity cause he at least in older times could be raising kids not even his own.

All is about getting one's genes successfully to the next generation, and even to the next.

Evolutionary Psychology makes a lot of sense, even if chicks just hate what it paints them as (and it doesn't paint men as angels either).
 
There's no way around it, most of us are at least subconsciously considering new mates. A man may not have gotten his genes to the next generation were his fiance having affairs with guys that wouldn't commit but had better genes than him, especially considering that a lot of children just didn't make it to having their own kids even 200 years ago.
So a man needs to protect against the guy with perhaps more compatible genes, and the woman needs to protect against loss of support for her children. A guy with good genes will get lots of female interest can afford to invest heavily in one they feel is the best, but go for side dishes as well, but at the same time, what if a side dish becomes a main investment, well for the kids of the first woman, that won't bode well at all. Thus she hates infidelity.
He hates infidelity cause he at least in older times could be raising kids not even his own.
All is about getting one's genes successfully to the next generation, and even to the next.
Evolutionary Psychology makes a lot of sense, even if chicks just hate what it paints them as (and it doesn't paint men as angels either).

Well i don't know about that. We assume we were evolved to pair up 1male 1female because that is one of the most common types of unions, but actually there is a huge variety of takes on producing offspring and having relationships with one another.

I remember seeing this really interesting National Geographic article about a remote group in the Chinese Himalaya, here it is;

NO-FATHERS DAY: Remote Group Has No Dads, And Never Did

"What would Father's Dayツ―and every other dayツ―be like without fathers? Maybe not so bad, according to experts on the Mosuo culture of the Chinese Himalaya.

The women of this matrilineal society shun marriage and raise their kids in homes with their entire extended familiesツ―but no dads.

By most accounts, children seem to do just fine under the arrangement.

"They are a society that we know hasn't had marriage for a thousand years, and they've been able to raise kids successfully," said Stephanie Coontz, family studies professor at the Evergreen State College in Olympia, Washington";


Full Story;

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2009/06/090619-fathers-day-2009-no-fathers.html

Basically, when women in this group want to have a baby, they go out and have sex with a non-genetically related man. But after the courtship and sex, the woman returns back to her family. It is then her brothers & family who look after her during her pregnancy and help raise her kids with her (not the guy who fathered the child).

This approach has numerous benefits;
a. No matter which guy the woman sleeps with, because it is her own brothers & family who help raise the baby the family will always end up raising offspring that is genetically their own. Or as one Mosuo man said "If you [father] a child with another woman, you can never be absolutely sure that the child really shares your genes," he said. "But if your sister has a child, you can be 100 percent sure that the kid shares some of your genes.""

b. Raising a child as a family is easier than raising a child as a couple. A single father can only do so much to raise a child, but when the whole family takes it upon themselves to raise all children in the family no matter who the father, there are many more hands to help etc. So rather than "one father with a kid, it will be four or five uncles.

c. The woman may change partners as often as they like, and promiscuity carries no social stigma. But most Mosuo women don't change walking-marriage partners very frequently. And they rarely carry on more than one romantic relationship at a time- many Mosuo women only have one or two relationships in their entire lives.

d. Family relationships are valued above all other relationships and Mosuo families are considered to be extremely stable. For example, there are no divorces to destablize the families. And even the death of a child's biological father has little effect on the family, given the father's distance from the family and the extensive support network in the household.

So yeah, this all makes much more genetic & social sense than our 1 man 1 woman raising a child together approach. Perhaps the reason why so many people have so many insecurities in their relationships is because our approach to relationships & reproducing are not the right answer evolutionally? Makes a lot more sense that way at least :) .
 
The very first thought is that it sounds like a great system, simply cause the women doesn't need to worry about resources, she can find a guy she has great chemistry with, and that guy knowing that she feels great chemistry with him, and not that she needs resources will know the chances of a child not being his are very low, i.e., she's not attracted to his commitment but attracted to another for his chemistry. It looks to more often work out for both parties I would say.

The second is that in a rural area, a woman is more likely to have just one or two partners, but in an urban area, that number of partners increases, and with good reason, if she finds more than a few great partners that she has great chemistry with, well one of the gene combinations may be superb, and great gene combinations were important so long ago when most children just didn't make it a reproductive age. The ultimate measure of species or gene survival is ultimately that your children do well and reproduce themselves.
 
That system deprives a man of the right and joy of being a father to his own children. Helping to raise someone else's child, where you'd be just one of several secondary figures in the child's life, is no substitute.

No thanks to that system; the Mosuo can keep it.
 
If the father were able to be involved in their children's lives, he had that choice, I don't see it as a bad system. It would mean deadbeat dads wouldn't so negatively affect their fiances, wives, and kids.
 
Humans have been experimenting with family structures for hundreds of thousands of years. Not only that, but humans have been subject to natural selection for at least as long.

If that system was so great, it would be used by more human cultures than just one isolated tribe in the Himalayas. There must be something peculiar to their culture or location that allows that system to endure -- if indeed it has endured many generations.

Perhaps the isolation has itself been a factor. No nearby tribe to raid them or wage war on them. A man will fight harder to defend his own woman and children than he will for someone else's. If not for their isolation, the Mosuo would have long since been wiped out, methinks.
 
Perhaps, or humanity as a whole is simply comfortable enough with the status quo.

Inheritance and resources played a huge role in shaping marriage as we know it today. I don't think humans are becoming less moral, but that many are ditching marriage cause it's not a necessity to survival any longer. Other options are more readily available to those that choose not to stay.

Even some women suffering from a complete lack of libido are most often best cured by simply finding a new partner. Something the experts acknowledge but wouldn't encourage.

In my mind anyways, it just says that a large percentage of humanity weren't really built for life long commitments to just one person, and prehistoric man is guessed to have had a series of monogamous relationships.
 
you all give the subject more than they deserve
it's a personal freedom , no more

it'a like a smoking or drinking alcohol or destroy a delicious meal that the obedience of Allah for Muslims is really like a addictive and I do not exaggerate in this expression ,

obedience of Allah for muslims mean many things
like :prayer and pilgrimage and Umrah charity Zakat and helping the needy, not lying, not arrogance and respect the old man and compassion for young children, and lack of perjury and not to talk about someone from our friends unless it was with us(if you will say something bad about him) and not lying, and also of the beautiful things that Muslims should not do it , not sleep fill your belly and your neighbor hungry , all this things muslims should do it , and no one can say it's wrong , let them do what they want , cuz they have to do what they want , like the prostitutes do what they want (of course they're a big difference).
 
@Tokis Phoenix
Tokis Phoenix, indeed human are mafe to be attractive to one and another, this natural attraction through spessific material shape, tones, smoothness, if we think about it, sometime can be quite a mystery. Think about it, and you find it absurd, but this unlogical absurdity that make all the living being not only limited to human (I prefer using human then a mankind) but also to the rest of living being keep exist and continue their population.

So the attractiveness, to be more spessific I must applogize for saying this first, the sexual attractiveness of spessific part of body is not exclusively only have within the female. Male also have their part of their body that can be consider as a private part. So covering the private part to avoid these attraction power is also an obligation for male. As a muslim, I can't take off my upper clothes and use bycle pants and walk arround the beach. It is something that privately only can be share to my muhrim.

As for muslim country, let me tell you a secret, there are none of the majority muslim population country appear to be a proper Muslim or Islamic country. We call this proper Islamic country : Caliphate. And all of those country that exist, including the Saudi Arabia, or if you wish you can call it Arab version of Saud family and their supporter which is England and USA, they are not applying shariah law, or proper Islamic law. Because any form of rapery in Islam it's a death sentences, clean and clear, no debate about it. And I bet there are no muslim inshallah in this forum will disagree with me according to this matters, since the fall of the Osmani which is the last Islamic Caliphate till now, there are no Muslim country or Caliphate there only a Republic country with modern law institution that most of the population are muslim, or monarch, or what-ever. There are only feodal, monarch, republican, that base their law not by the Quran and the Hadist, and none of them form their institution like the institution that being teach by our Prophet Muhammad (PBUH/SAWS).

But inshallah, we work on it, and this event already mention and predict in Hadist, so there are none of us suprise with this event or loosing our hope and may Allah bring the Islamic Caliphate back once again. If you want to know how the aplication of Islamic caliphate, read the history of early muslim caliphate like Abu-Baqr ra, Umar Ibn Khatab ra., Utsman Ibn Hafan Ra, Ali Ibn Abi Thalib ra, Umar Ibn Abdul Aziz ra, Muhammad Al Fatih (or Mehmet the conqeuror) ra. I suggest you to check it on netral source, you can check Karen Armstrong, she is non-muslim, but it will be best and fair if you read it from the muslim. You can check :

www.kalamullah.com

check the biography and shirah. There are many book, both classic and contemporer, if you appear don't like one of the author or lecturer, pick the other that fit you best.
Ok good luck for finding the truth.

Hmmm..............
The general idea i have gotten about Muslim women wearing veils is that;
a. Muslim women have modesty. A Muslim womans modesty is her body, and so to cover up her body is to protect her modesty.
b. There is a miriad of different types of veils- some only cover the hair (and the covering of the hair seems to be a major theme of all veils), some cover the face and others cover the whole body etc. If covering the body is to protect modesty, the reason why there is such a miriad of veils is because people have different idea's on how much is needed to be covered up for a Muslim woman to be considered properly modest.
c. If a Muslim woman does not cover up though, she is not protecting her modesty by "showing off" her body. A womans body is beautiful and can be used to attract men. But there are few or no cases where it is considered acceptable for a Muslim woman to attract men using her body.
When a Muslim woman doesn't cover up herself adequately (by the standards of her people), people are suspicious and say/think "Who is she trying to impress?". Guys will look at her and see that she isn't covered up properly and so immediately assume that she must be looking for some male fun because she isn't covering up her body/modesty properly.
Most Muslim girls are expected to save their virginity for marriage (which will be arranged by her parents or family). Dating leads to sexual temptations and so dating is frowned upon. So a good Muslim girl will cover up her body so she doesn't attract guys.
But after marriage, she is still expected to cover up in public- her body should be for her husbands eyes only, so if she goes out inadequately covered then people think "Who is she trying to impress?". People assume that despite being married, she must be trying to attract other men if she's not covering herself up properly.
Ultimately it appears that Muslim women should cover themselves up adequately at all times in public if they are to give the impression they are not trying to attract unwelcome male attention.
I have seen numerous news stories over the years of Muslim women/girls being raped in conservative Muslim countries, but the charges against the rapist/s being dropped when it was found out the that women/girl in question was not covered up properly clothes-wise (like she was wearing a short skirt or a low cut top)- the judge simply says to such rape victims "If you didn't want sex then why did you dress so immodestly? You were obviously asking for it by the way you were dressing, so you got what you deserved".
We in the West are appalled by cases like this! That it is ok to abuse women if they're not covered up properly.
But as to whether veils are religious or cultural, i think that perhaps its more about insecurity.
For example...
I had a friend who for years, put a lot of effort into her appearance (especially when going out at the weekends). She spent time every morning putting on her makeup, making her hair look nice, choosing good looking outfits etc. When we went out together on nights out we would both dress up sexy (low cut tops, short skirts etc) because it was fun ("you only live once!"). I was in (and still am in) a long term relationship with my guy, she was single (my guy has no issue with me dressing up sexy BTW, he enjoys it in fact and is happy that i still put lots of effort into my appearance even though we have been together for over 8 years etc).
But eventually she got into a relationship with this guy called Dan (by the way neither my friend nor this Dan guy were or are Muslim). As a friend, he was a great guy- always funny, loud & full of energy, a real character on a night out. But it become apparent that after my friend got into relationship with him, he was a much different character- behind closed doors he was insecure, controlling & paranoid.
I started to notice my friend changing as her relationship with him got more long term- she stopped wearing makeup, stopped dressing up sexy, started putting on weight and was just generally putting less effort into her appearance. She was happy yet depressed at the same time. One day i spoke to her about her changes (there was obviously something not right) and she eventually admitted to me that she was doing this because of Dan. Because increasingly everytime when she put effort into her appearance like putting on some good makeup or wearing sexy underwear or clothes, he went to her and said "Who are you trying to impress?".
Even though she was completely faithful to him and gave him no reason to suspect she wasn't faithful, he was so insecure, paranoid & controlling he couldn't handle her looking good in case she attracted any other male attention. His philosophy to her was "Well now you're in a relationship with me why do you need to wear sexy clothes on nights out etc, unless you're trying to attract other guys?". He even didn't like her having any friends that were guys (even guys who she had been friends with since they were little kids and were more like brother & sister).
So yeah. The whole "Who are you trying to impress?" idea is not something that only Muslim men get- plenty of non-Muslim guys get it too. Not just that, but even girls/women can get insecure about their men (plenty of other stories about such cases). But either way, no matter whether its in a Muslim or non-Muslim context i think most people in the West look down on this controlling (even emotionally blackmailing) insecure behaviour.
I also find it interesting that while women are considered to be bodies of extreme temptation and must cover themselves up properly at all times to stop men being tempted by their bodies, no one seems to think that a guy can use his body to attract women? That the concept of male modesty is ridiculous? I think this is why a lot of people view veils as sexist.
 
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abdalrasyid: Sure, I guess there isn't any pure Islamic country around today. But in all honesty? I'm happy about that! I'm happy that religion is being pushed away from politics. Religion and education do not go hand in hand. Religion is the great evil that mankind let grow unchecked. Polytheism was used in ancient times to explain the many forces at work in our world. A god for storms, a god of the hunt, a god for war, a god for love, a god for the setting & rising of the sun, and so many more! This is what monotheism is based off of! Islam, Judaism, and Christianity are all Abrahamic religions, and their one true God is based off the Canaanite god, El.

The fact that we impose laws and restrictions on ourselves is great! We cannot flail about endlessly, there must be order. That was religion's purpose. To give us structure, meaning, and to ease the horrible pain of being aware that we are all to die one day. But to take it so far, and in this day and age? There is no point to accepting it. If you want to believe in your God(s), so be it, but there are women and men who do not want to live according to Sharia law. It's up to the women to decide if they want to adhere to Hijab, not for society or any one person to tell them what to do. You say they can take it off when they go into their homes, but what sort of freedom is that?

We all know what happens when someone doesn't adhere to Hijab, don't we? Yes, yes we do! It doesn't seem very fair to me. :<
 
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