Ashikaga
もちもちした食感
- 19 Feb 2008
- 2,220
- 84
You could have cut to the chase and posted this in the first place and do away with the story about "your friend".
Police harassment in Japan
- Thread starter shakehip
- Start date
You could have cut to the chase and posted this in the first place and do away with the story about "your friend".
Is there any specific reason why you dont want foreigners to know the law and to stop being harrassed by police for having white skin or is it just on principle?
As I have said several times. The guy isnt my friend, simply a guy I know and such an enquiry was my original reason for leaving a message here. I didnt know the law but wanted to know. I mostly only got idiotic comments here along with a few vague responses.
Anyway, if you have white skin, next time you are harrassed by the police simply because of this, I hope you will take note of what I posted about the law or go to Debitos website and read about it in detail.
- 19 May 2007
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Look you don't know the law, so stop pretending that you do. In addition to the law presented in this thread there is another law called "Foreign Registry Law" and any officer of the government that works for law enforcement or Ministry of Justice with immigration , coast guard ect is entitled to ask for ID regardless if you were sitting in a park reading a book. So quit with crap that you are doing everyone a favour by saying that you don't have to present your ID. Read what it says below.
"外国人登録法 第十三条 第二項 外国人は、入国審査官、入国警備官（入管法に定 める入国警備官をいう）、警察官、海上保安官その他法務省令で定める国又は地方公共団体の職員がその職務の執行に当たり登録証明書の掲示を求めた場合には、これを提示しなければならない。"
A very rough translation.
"The Foreign Registry Law, Section 13, Clause 2. Foreigners, when asked to show ID by immigration investigation officials , police, coast guard, or any other national or local public official or group empowered by the Ministry of Justice as part of the execution of their duties, must show their ID when required to by an offical."
Like I said before, "A little information is dangerous".
But , you go ahead and refuse to show your card, b/c it just makes it harder for the rest of us.
Makes it harder for the rest of "us"? To whom are you referring as "us"?
Anyway, I think that says it all. You got the info, probably from Debitos website, the very same information I was pointing people who wished to know to but you stopped after only the first paragraph. Why dont you copy and paste the "Police Execution of Duties Law Section 2" and/or The Foreign Registry Law, Section 13, Clause 3"???
Dont you want people to know about those laws?
Even though you annoy me greatly I will continue to let as many foreigners as possible know these laws and will continue to post them here and elsewhere no matter how much you spam.
- 19 May 2007
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People who have choosen to live and make a living here, people who have created roots here and people who do not want to be judged by society b/c of what a few people do.
And no I do not vist the site that he has, I got the information from here, some people do actually do their own homework.
http://law.e-gov.go.jp/htmldata/S27/S27HO125.html
And is it that you cannot read or do you just use selective reading? I said in my earlier post that "In addition to the law presented in this thread" which I will give you a link to so as to save confusion, Police Harassment
It is the second post down BTW. So why do I need to post that information that has already been discussed, and it has already been established that that an officer is also required to present their ID as well. Is this again your ignorance kicking in?
You said that you do not have to provide ID and I provided the information that requires you to regardless of what you or anyone else says. So stop spewing that verbal diarrhea that is comming from your mouth, b/c you have your facts wrong.
As for your last question , I don't care who knows these laws so you can go tell who ever you like.
Oh, so now you chose to live here and make a living here? Where else were you going to do this? Though I hate to be judged by waht other foreigners do. Especially when fascist police stop them to ask for I.D. only because they have white skin and the docile foreigners just hand it over without thinking or asking why and generally, without protecting their rights.
Now you are purposely putting words into my mouth? Hoping for this thread to degenerate into worthless babble? I guess it has already done that but never mind. Copying and pasting isnt much trouble.
In conclusion, I hope foreigners when they are stopped by the police for no reason other than having white skin, dont just hand over their I.D. like docile lackeys.
If the policemen or womem are smarter or just less willing to be so flagrant in breaking the law than average, they will come up with some reason as to why they need to see your I.D. For example "a foreigner was just reported <i>(doing something)</i> nearby." In that case they have the right to see your I.D. but before showing them, you have the right to first see their I.D. I would suggest not just letting them flick open their wallets and flash it, but to actually look carefully and record details as that is what they will do just to show "how powerful" they are (typical fascists!). If the foreigner first inspects their I.D. for everyone around to see, the power-trip of the police will go down in flames.
On the other hand, if he or she is as stupid and without any compunction in breaking the law as an average policeman or women and says you have to show I.D. merely because you are a foreigner, you have the right to refuse which is what I hope you will do as the more people who dont just hand over their I.D. like docile lackeys the more police will refrain from harrassing us. Unless you speak Japanese very well, download and print the file that has the law written in Japanese and English on Debitos website and show it to them when they stop you.
Its in everyones interest that the police refrain from doing this. At first they only pick on minorities as they are the easiest target but as soon as those minorities capitulate, they inevitably get more ambitious.
Now you are purposely putting words into my mouth? Hoping for this thread to degenerate into worthless babble? I guess it has already done that but never mind. Copying and pasting isnt much trouble.
In conclusion, I hope foreigners when they are stopped by the police for no reason other than having white skin, dont just hand over their I.D. like docile lackeys.
If the policemen or womem are smarter or just less willing to be so flagrant in breaking the law than average, they will come up with some reason as to why they need to see your I.D. For example "a foreigner was just reported <i>(doing something)</i> nearby." In that case they have the right to see your I.D. but before showing them, you have the right to first see their I.D. I would suggest not just letting them flick open their wallets and flash it, but to actually look carefully and record details as that is what they will do just to show "how powerful" they are (typical fascists!). If the foreigner first inspects their I.D. for everyone around to see, the power-trip of the police will go down in flames.
On the other hand, if he or she is as stupid and without any compunction in breaking the law as an average policeman or women and says you have to show I.D. merely because you are a foreigner, you have the right to refuse which is what I hope you will do as the more people who dont just hand over their I.D. like docile lackeys the more police will refrain from harrassing us. Unless you speak Japanese very well, download and print the file that has the law written in Japanese and English on Debitos website and show it to them when they stop you.
Its in everyones interest that the police refrain from doing this. At first they only pick on minorities as they are the easiest target but as soon as those minorities capitulate, they inevitably get more ambitious.
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- 19 May 2007
- 1,716
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Yes, and your point is?
I don't need any more ignorant foreingers doing things and agrivating situations that may affect me in the future. Especially ones that will only be here for a short period of time.
Bad luck buddy, a lot of what other foriegn people have in the past gives us a bad name. Congratulations for experencing it. (why do you keep saying white, there are other skin colored foriegners here too)
You said "They broke the law twice in first asking to see my ID even when they fully knew I wasnt under any suspicion and I was only there to help out with translating and then in refusing to show their own even when directly requested to do so."
As I have explained earlier, they broke no laws as it is you who is saying they have not me. I even posted links for you to the begining of the thread and to Japanese law, what else could you ask for? So no, I am not putting words in your mouth. I await your response in this regard...
You are repeating yourself and are still whining. The police did nothing wrong as they have every right to ask for ID , as I have stated earlier.
Maybe you should have asked to see their ID and then we all would not have had to listen to your heart breaking story, I know I have the violines out.
If you really want to see action, I suggest you take up Pipokuns offer...
You are really fanatical, arent you? Do you really expect anyone to believe you are a foreigner?
In Germany there are people like you too (mostly in the western areas. In the east they are playing with their lives!) but they come right out and say other ethnic groups and especially other races are inferior and dont have any rights in Germany and all those other nice fascist tendencies and ideas.
The police also give people with different color skin a hard time (again, mostly in western areas) but they are not so flagrant about it as they are in Japan. They would never stop someone to ask for an I.D. check and questioning and come right out and say "because you are a foreigner". I guess much to their dismay, police are also forced to obey the law.
I cant comment on people with skin other than white because I am only speaking from my own experience and from what other white-skinned people have told me. Have no idea what it is like for other races. I presume its the same for black and Asian people who arent or dont look east-Asian but that is only speculation.
Now, you are more than exceptionally annoying, you are outright painful and I know you are trying to reduce the thread to worthless babble so other interested white-skinned people cant read what their rights are. If you post anymore here I am not going to reply at all only to paste that same message explaining what foreigners rights are when stopped and asked to show I.D. by the police.
In Germany there are people like you too (mostly in the western areas. In the east they are playing with their lives!) but they come right out and say other ethnic groups and especially other races are inferior and dont have any rights in Germany and all those other nice fascist tendencies and ideas.
The police also give people with different color skin a hard time (again, mostly in western areas) but they are not so flagrant about it as they are in Japan. They would never stop someone to ask for an I.D. check and questioning and come right out and say "because you are a foreigner". I guess much to their dismay, police are also forced to obey the law.
I cant comment on people with skin other than white because I am only speaking from my own experience and from what other white-skinned people have told me. Have no idea what it is like for other races. I presume its the same for black and Asian people who arent or dont look east-Asian but that is only speculation.
Now, you are more than exceptionally annoying, you are outright painful and I know you are trying to reduce the thread to worthless babble so other interested white-skinned people cant read what their rights are. If you post anymore here I am not going to reply at all only to paste that same message explaining what foreigners rights are when stopped and asked to show I.D. by the police.
No. I said earlier on this thread why I wont. I am however, fully prepared for the next time they stop me to ask for I.D.
If you know what you can do to help is explain what happens if they stop you in a busy area where it is a disruption to the public. In that case do you have the right to move to another area where there is no disruption or do they have the right to take you to a "police administrative area" where as far as I understand, ones rights are substantially less? Also, what if they stop you in front of a koban? Would this qualify as a police administrative area?
Reyter, are you German?
From what I did in your country was just to show my passport when a police car suddenly stopped and 3 or 4 officers surrounded me. I just walked down the street then.
Fortunately, I only get my bike registration checked on once or twice a year basis here. My bike is a bit too old and shabby with the light broken, so I cannot say anything against their suspicion.
Nobody steals it even I always leave it unlocked...
===
When I rode a bicycle painted in pink when I was around 14, I often challenged the cops asking "WHY ONLY ME? WHY NOT THAT WOMAN THERE??"
From what I did in your country was just to show my passport when a police car suddenly stopped and 3 or 4 officers surrounded me. I just walked down the street then.
Fortunately, I only get my bike registration checked on once or twice a year basis here. My bike is a bit too old and shabby with the light broken, so I cannot say anything against their suspicion.
Nobody steals it even I always leave it unlocked...
===
When I rode a bicycle painted in pink when I was around 14, I often challenged the cops asking "WHY ONLY ME? WHY NOT THAT WOMAN THERE??"
- 19 May 2007
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Unfortunately this thread was reduced to babel after you posted in it...
I suppose it is hard to admitt that the police were well within the law after you call them "fascists" and that you were ultimately wrong in your assumption of the law, especially on a public forum. Ah well, can't dispute facts can you.
So now you are reduced to trying to change the topic and start talking about other countries. This is Japan and this topic is about Japan.
I suggest you pick up all your toys and go home now.
And that is the first time I have been call a "Non foriegner" . LOL
I am hardly going to defend the police, especially the West German police. I also dont know if you stand out from average Germans. I wouldnt be surprised at all if obviously being a foreigner they stop you and harrass you but I would be stunned if they are so flagrant as to openly say "because you are a foreigner."
Of course if you live close to a US military base and look like you could be in the army, all bets are off.
In conclusion, I hope foreigners when they are stopped by the police for no reason other than having white skin, dont just hand over their I.D. like docile lackeys.
If the policemen or womem are smarter or just less willing to be so flagrant in breaking the law than average, they will come up with some reason as to why they need to see your I.D. For example "a foreigner was just reported <i>(doing something)</i> nearby." In that case they have the right to see your I.D. but before showing them, you have the right to first see their I.D. I would suggest not just letting them flick open their wallets and flash it, but to actually look carefully and record details as that is what they will do just to show "how powerful" they are (typical fascists!). If the foreigner first inspects their I.D. for everyone around to see, the power-trip of the police will go down in flames.
On the other hand, if he or she is as stupid and without any compunction in breaking the law as an average policeman or women and says you have to show I.D. merely because you are a foreigner, you have the right to refuse which is what I hope you will do as the more people who dont just hand over their I.D. like docile lackeys the more police will refrain from harrassing us. Unless you speak Japanese very well, download and print the file that has the law written in Japanese and English on Debitos website and show it to them when they stop you.
Its in everyones interest that the police refrain from doing this. At first they only pick on minorities as they are the easiest target but as soon as those minorities capitulate, they inevitably get more ambitious.
If the policemen or womem are smarter or just less willing to be so flagrant in breaking the law than average, they will come up with some reason as to why they need to see your I.D. For example "a foreigner was just reported <i>(doing something)</i> nearby." In that case they have the right to see your I.D. but before showing them, you have the right to first see their I.D. I would suggest not just letting them flick open their wallets and flash it, but to actually look carefully and record details as that is what they will do just to show "how powerful" they are (typical fascists!). If the foreigner first inspects their I.D. for everyone around to see, the power-trip of the police will go down in flames.
On the other hand, if he or she is as stupid and without any compunction in breaking the law as an average policeman or women and says you have to show I.D. merely because you are a foreigner, you have the right to refuse which is what I hope you will do as the more people who dont just hand over their I.D. like docile lackeys the more police will refrain from harrassing us. Unless you speak Japanese very well, download and print the file that has the law written in Japanese and English on Debitos website and show it to them when they stop you.
Its in everyones interest that the police refrain from doing this. At first they only pick on minorities as they are the easiest target but as soon as those minorities capitulate, they inevitably get more ambitious.
- 19 May 2007
- 1,716
- 113
Unfortunately this thread was reduced to babel after you posted in it...
I suppose it is hard to admitt that the police were well within the law after you call them "fascists" and that you were ultimately wrong in your assumption of the law, especially on a public forum. Ah well, can't dispute facts can you.
So now you are reduced to trying to change the topic and start talking about other countries. This is Japan and this topic is about Japan.
I suggest you pick up all your toys and go home now.
And that is the first time I have been call a "Non foriegner" . LOL
I suppose it is hard to admitt that the police were well within the law after you call them "fascists" and that you were ultimately wrong in your assumption of the law, especially on a public forum. Ah well, can't dispute facts can you.
So now you are reduced to trying to change the topic and start talking about other countries. This is Japan and this topic is about Japan.
I suggest you pick up all your toys and go home now.
And that is the first time I have been call a "Non foriegner" . LOL
- 8 Aug 2005
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For clarification, do any of the laws regarding police making stops or checking ID require them to give a valid reason? And is "because you're foreigner," or any variant considered an invalid reason to ask for ID? Has a police officer ever directly said that 「外国人だから。。。」, or is just the translation of your understanding of the situation?
When I was given my 外国人登録証明書, I was told that I needed to carry it on me at all times, and if any peace officer asked to see it for any reason I had to produce it. Does this law permit or encourage different treatment towards foreign residents than native citizens in regards to presenting ID?
If the law says that a police officer must present their ID if you ask to see it first, then it seems that the officer that refused you was in violation of this policy (and for this, you should file a complaint), but regardless of how unfair it might seem, he was within his rights to ask you for your ID in the first place. Calling him a fascist over and over, and angrily attacking other members that respond to your rants does not make your argument any more compelling.
I hope we can discuss the laws in question in a civilized manner, and if your rights were violated, then we can find the proper recourse to try to prevent this sort of thing from happening again. I have had my own experiences with police in Japan that have made me question their motives, but I learned long ago that cool heads prevail, especially in Japan. Passion is good, but getting riled up makes it easy to be written off by others.
When I was given my 外国人登録証明書, I was told that I needed to carry it on me at all times, and if any peace officer asked to see it for any reason I had to produce it. Does this law permit or encourage different treatment towards foreign residents than native citizens in regards to presenting ID?
If the law says that a police officer must present their ID if you ask to see it first, then it seems that the officer that refused you was in violation of this policy (and for this, you should file a complaint), but regardless of how unfair it might seem, he was within his rights to ask you for your ID in the first place. Calling him a fascist over and over, and angrily attacking other members that respond to your rants does not make your argument any more compelling.
I hope we can discuss the laws in question in a civilized manner, and if your rights were violated, then we can find the proper recourse to try to prevent this sort of thing from happening again. I have had my own experiences with police in Japan that have made me question their motives, but I learned long ago that cool heads prevail, especially in Japan. Passion is good, but getting riled up makes it easy to be written off by others.
Chidoriashi
In imagination land
- 2 Feb 2007
- 824
- 63
Reyter, I guess I am at a loss as to what you are even arguing anymore. It has been established that you must show your ID when asked to by a police officer, and that yes they must show their ID to you if you request it. So you could file a complaint against that officer who refused to show you his. So that should be the end of this discussion right?
And I totally agree with nicegaijin that throwing temper tantrums, dancing on pedestals and demanding your rights at the top of your lungs will do very little to help your case and will probably just make things worse for you here. If you truly are so passionate about this take the advice that many posters have said already and seek out the proper channels for filing a complaint. Pipokun has been very kind to offer to figure out where you need to go for you, I don't see how it could get any easier than that.
And I totally agree with nicegaijin that throwing temper tantrums, dancing on pedestals and demanding your rights at the top of your lungs will do very little to help your case and will probably just make things worse for you here. If you truly are so passionate about this take the advice that many posters have said already and seek out the proper channels for filing a complaint. Pipokun has been very kind to offer to figure out where you need to go for you, I don't see how it could get any easier than that.
That is what we have been discussing. If you do a google search for "Debito Police Harrasment" you can see all the relevant laws in English and Japanese. Police have told me "because your a foreigner" twice and the police in this case are breaking the law. First time I was furious and went and checked the laws. Second time was 2 weeks ago but knowing some laws regarding foreigners changed earlier this year, I thought that must have been one. Even when they understood I wasnt just another docile foreigner willing to hand over my I.D. and submit to questioning without reason they still demanded to see my I.D. and refused to show their own. I thought the law must have changed since I had last checked but no. Those police are just fascist pigs. In searching for info I saw how common this type of thing is and so can only conclude that the Japanese police force is a fascist organization.
For two reasons. Because some "less intellectually enlightened people" keep repying with some nonsense and others say things like above. Now I am no longer a junior member, here are the laws: http://www.debito.org/GcardLAWS.pdf It absolutely HAS NOT been established tht you must show I.D. when police ask for it. You are not required to unless you are a suspect in a crime.
What is astonishing is that you tell me I should end the discussion? I am the only person here pointing out the law while some "others" are just carrying on with babbling nonsense. What is going on here? Has everyone come down with fascist sympathies? I point out the law several times and then you come along and say: "It has been established that you must show your ID when asked to by a police officer."
Just for the record, I hate fascists!
Well I didnt do that. I just thought the law must have changed and was angry about that but not the police especially even though one annoying little fascist stared at me in a very aggressive manner. When I found out the law hadnt changed and those police were just fascist pigs, thats when I got angry.
Chidoriashi
In imagination land
- 2 Feb 2007
- 824
- 63
第二条
１
警察官は、異常な挙動その他周囲の事情から合理的に 判断して何らかの犯罪を犯し、若しくは犯そうとしていると疑うに足りる相当な理由のある者又は既に行われた 犯罪について、若しくは犯罪が行われようとしていることについて知つていると認められる者を停止させて質問 することができる。
This law says that they have the right to stop and "question" (key word here) you about a crime if you are suspected of having knowledge about or having committed that crime. It says nothing about asking you to show your ID. Which this other law.. "外国人登録法 第十三条 第二項 外国人は、入国審査官、入国警備官（入管法に定める入国警備官をいう）、警察官、海上保安官その他法務省令で定める国又は地方公共団体の職員がその職務の執行に当たり登録証明書の掲示を求めた場合には、これを提示しなければならない。" states that they have the right stop ask you to show your ID in accordance with their duties, and says nothing about you having to be under suspicion of a crime.
Do you understand? There is no provision in the first law saying you must be under suspicion of a crime first before they can ask you for ID. It says if you are under suspicion of a crime or may have knowledge about a crime they can question you in regards to that crime. So if a police officer asks you to show your ID (not question you), you must comply, but you can ask him or her to show you theirs.
１
警察官は、異常な挙動その他周囲の事情から合理的に 判断して何らかの犯罪を犯し、若しくは犯そうとしていると疑うに足りる相当な理由のある者又は既に行われた 犯罪について、若しくは犯罪が行われようとしていることについて知つていると認められる者を停止させて質問 することができる。
This law says that they have the right to stop and "question" (key word here) you about a crime if you are suspected of having knowledge about or having committed that crime. It says nothing about asking you to show your ID. Which this other law.. "外国人登録法 第十三条 第二項 外国人は、入国審査官、入国警備官（入管法に定める入国警備官をいう）、警察官、海上保安官その他法務省令で定める国又は地方公共団体の職員がその職務の執行に当たり登録証明書の掲示を求めた場合には、これを提示しなければならない。" states that they have the right stop ask you to show your ID in accordance with their duties, and says nothing about you having to be under suspicion of a crime.
Do you understand? There is no provision in the first law saying you must be under suspicion of a crime first before they can ask you for ID. It says if you are under suspicion of a crime or may have knowledge about a crime they can question you in regards to that crime. So if a police officer asks you to show your ID (not question you), you must comply, but you can ask him or her to show you theirs.
Chidoriashi
In imagination land
- 2 Feb 2007
- 824
- 63
And I read what Debitos thing said in English, but that is not what the Japanese says. .. that utagau ni tariru soutouna riyuu.. is talking about stopping and questioning you in regards to a crime.. it says nothing about being asked to show your ID.
- 19 May 2007
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What , b/c that site says so, I suggest you vist a Lawyer here. I have talked to my companies lawyer about this you don't have a leg to stand on.
Read this again and again until you can get it through your thick head that they don't have to suspect you of anything to ask for your ID.
外国人は、入国審査官、入国警備官（入管法 に定める入国警備官をいう。）、警察官、海上保安官その他法務省令で定める国又は地方公共団体の職員がその職務の執行に当たり登録証明書の提示を求めた場合には、これを提示しなければならない。
http://law.e-gov.go.jp/htmldata/S27/S27HO125.html
And you can carry on all you want that they have to show their ID first, the law only says if they are requested to show should they have to do it. I put the part that is relevant in bold.
前項に規定する職員は、その事務所以外の場所において登録証明書の提示を求める場合には、その身分を示す証票を携帯し、請求があるときは、これを提示しなければならない。
What is astonishing here is that you are too thick to see why your argument holds no water.
Fascist,fascist,fascist,fascist,fascist,fascist,fascist,fascist,fascist,fascist,fascist,fascist,fascist,fascist,fascist,fascist,fascist,fascist,fascist,fascist,fascist,fascist,fascist,fascist....
Go home already, Japan is not the place for you.
