Rewriting History Again "Japan to Revise Books on WWII Suicides"

[diceke]

My wife is an adult. This book is for children. She has already read a similar book, and we all know what was written in the old versions, as well as the new.

The book is for children? You mean this book?

 

[Ewok85]

Wow, its sad that you two have to get personal as well as give meaningless responses to get anywhere in this thread.

diceke - wrong book. I don't even know what the #%@! you are on about now. This topic is about one thing, and one thing alone - lets go back to the start.

TOKYO ﾂ― The government ordered changes Friday to seven history textbooks describing how the Japanese army forced civilians to commit mass suicide at the end of World War II, the country's latest effort to soften brutal accounts of its wartime conduct.
The high school textbooks...

It is about these high school textbooks, books for children who are in high school.

And pipokun, stay on topic will you.

I have a single and simple question which I've now asked twice. Why have so many Okinawan survivors of WWII said that Imperial Japanese Army soldiers and officers told them to kill themselves?

And bonus question would be: Do the opinions and first hand experiences of these people "not count" in your little argument? And finally, are you suggesting that these people are wrong, or even worse, lying?

 

[KirinMan]

I have a single and simple question which I've now asked twice. Why have so many Okinawan survivors of WWII said that Imperial Japanese Army soldiers and officers told them to kill themselves?

And bonus question would be: Do the opinions and first hand experiences of these people "not count" in your little argument? And finally, are you suggesting that these people are wrong, or even worse, lying?

Fair questions...I hope you get fair answers from them as well. I am also interested in their replies.

 

[caster51]

Why have so many Okinawan survivors of WWII said that Imperial Japanese Army soldiers and officers told them to kill themselves?

it is easy.
some ppl also think we were victims of Japanese army.
then we were burnt and killed . atomic bomds were dorpped because of cruel Japanese army like commies said.

even my city's nikkyoso says we were forced and orderd to fight for WW2 by army

 

[KirinMan]

it is easy.
some ppl also think we were victims of Japanese army.
then we were burnt and killed . ......even my city's nikkyoso says we were forced and orderd to fight for WW2

Thank for agreeing that the suicides committed during WWII were due to the orders of the Japanese Imperial Army and government.

Since you obviously agree my next question is why then are you for the textbooks being rewritten?

 

[caster51]

Thank for agreeing that the suicides committed during WWII were due to the orders of the Japanese Imperial Army and government.

NoPe i dont agree with you at all
Beause it is not the fact.

 

[KirinMan]

NoPe i dont agree with you at all
Beause it is not the fact.

Well then from now on you and I are going to have to agree to disagree because I know for a fact that it was according to the orders of the Japanese Military and Government at the time that people, civilians and soldiers, airmen, and sailor's alike commit suicide and die for their country and Emperor rather than surrender.

That Caster is a fact.

 

[caster51]

Well then from now on you and I are going to have to agree to disagree because I know for a fact that it was according to the orders of the Japanese Military and Government at the time that people, civilians and soldiers, airmen, and sailor's alike commit suicide and die for their country and Emperor rather than surrender.

However...
it was not orderd and foeced to commit suicide by Japanese Military and Government at the time.

even today, commit suicide by the order and forced is the shame.
we want to decide our last ourselves even though I choose sucide as a result.
it is human dignity. You have made their dignity dirty

 

[KirinMan]

However...
it was not orderd and foeced to commit suicide by Japanese Military and Government at the time.

Give me a break, you know darn well that it was ordered, what the heck do you call the Kamikaze pilots that wreaked havoc over the US ships during the Battle of Okinawa and other places? They knew damn well ahead of time that they were on a one way ticket to death.

How about the "banzai" attacks into well defended and fortified positions all over the Pacific.

What do you call the Japanese that pulled pins on hand grenades and held them to their chests, murders?

The "shame" they felt was due to defeat and not being able to fulfill their "duty" to country and the Emperor. Suicide was an acceptable and honorable way to die. You know that as well.

even today, commit suicide by the order and forced is the shame.

This doesnt make any sense at all, who today is going to "order" someone to commit suicide?

we want to decide our last ourselves even though I choose sucide as a result. it is human dignity

Are you trying to say that people who choose to commit suicide is a matter of human dignity?

I dont agree, suicide is a cop out, running away, fear of facing up to one's own mistakes, among a host of other things as well.

People who commit suicide to me are cowards.

I can also understand, whether I agree or not is another subject, but I understand the "why" behind the suicides during WWII and particularly here in Okinawa as well. To me they were doing what they thought was their duty, because of the shame and failure in being beaten by an enemy.

 

[caster51]

People who commit suicide to me are cowards.

i dnot think so at all.
it depends...

however , I dont choose to commit sucide by someone's direct ordering

I dont agree, suicide is a cop out, running away, fear of facing up to one's own mistakes, among a host of other things as well.

they selected it their digunity

 

[KirinMan]

i dnot think so at all.
it depends...
they selected it their digunity

Caster this is not "samurai " Japan, nor the Japan of WWII, the Emperor is no long viewed of as being a god.

Today suicide, even here, is a form of cowardice.

 

[caster51]

Caster this is not "samurai" Japan, nor the Japan of WWII, the Emperor is no long viewed of as being a god.
Today suicide, even here, is a form of cowardice.

Nop, more than 60% of committing sucide are reason of their hopeless health of old guys.
it is not said they are coward..

 

[KirinMan]

Nop, more than 60% of committing sucide are reason of their health of old guys.
it is not said they are coward..

Euthanasia or mercy killing is a different subject, technically speaking one could call it "suicide". I dont put them in the same category.

Caster who ordered the Kamikaze pilots to kill themselves in attacking the US warships during the battle of Okinawa and elsewhere?

Caster who or what made the Japanese soldiers believe that pulling the pins on hand grenades and committing suicide was an honorable way of dying, instead of surrendering?

 

[caster51]

Euthanasia or mercy killing is a different subject, technically speaking one could call it "suicide". I dont put them in the same category

it is the same ...
they were corner and death was approaching by enemy.

did you watched testimony of tokashiki survivor ?

were they coward?
I dont think so.
they were so brave.
that is why oota said it in his last teregram" okinawan had fought bravely

Sakhalin and himeturi girls were so coward?
i dont think so at all

in case of sakhlin, they did their best until last

 

[KirinMan]

were they coward?
I dont think so

OK I disagree, they had other options, they could have surrendered and lived.

Sure they may have had the shame of defeat on their minds for the rest of their lives, but at least they would be alive. Living takes more courage than dying Caster. Life is hard.

that is why oota said it in his last teregram" okinawan had fought bravely

I've read it, and been to where he made his last stand with his men and been in the caves where numerous men committed suicide by pulling pins on their hand grenades, the holes are still left in the walls of the cave.

Sobering to say the least, I didnt say they weren't brave or not courageous, just took the cowards exit.

 

[KirinMan]

it is the same ...
they were corner and death was approaching by enemy.

Caster you know here too that it is illogical to equate a situation in war with a health issue, it isnt the same.

Once again my reply to you...they could have surrendered. They had options.

 

[KirinMan]

Okinawa Slams History Text Rerwrite

The following is taken from the above link, this was all over the news here in Okinawa this past weekend. Evidently every City and Town assembly in the prefecture has passed similar resolutions requesting the government to retract the proposed re-writes to the textbooks.

All the assembly resolutions were unanimous as well.

Saturday, June 23, 2007


Okinawa slams history text rewrite
Assembly tells state to retract order to downplay mass suicides

Compiled from Kyodo, AP

The Okinawa Prefectural Assembly demanded Friday that the central government retract its instruction to high school history textbook publishers to downplay the military's role in ordering mass civilian suicides during the Battle of Okinawa.


Protesters demand Friday in Naha that the government retract its instruction to revise history textbooks to downplay the military's role in ordering mass suicides in the prefecture during the war. KYODO PHOTO


The assembly issued the call in a unanimously adopted statement after 36 out of the 41 municipal assemblies in the prefecture adopted similar statements and civic groups collected 100,000 signatures opposing the government move.

In the statement, the assembly said, "It is an undeniable fact that mass suicides could not have occurred without the involvement of the Japanese military.

"We strongly call on the government to retract the instruction and to immediately restore the description in the textbooks so the truth of the Battle of Okinawa will be handed down correctly and a tragic war will never happen again."

Okinawa was the only inhabited part of Japan where ground fighting took place in the closing days of World War II. During the battle, a quarter of Okinawa's civilian population died. More than 200,000 Japanese and Americans died in the bloody battle.

Many survivors say Japanese soldiers, on the brink of defeat, told them to kill themselves and their loved ones. But some military-related people deny that mass suicides and murder-suicides were ordered.

In March, the Education, Culture, Sports, Science and Technology Ministry advised publishers of the textbooks to be used in the next school year to reword descriptions that the embattled Imperial Japanese Army forced civilians to kill themselves in the war so they would not be taken prisoner by the U.S. military.

Textbooks for Japanese schools must be screened and approved by a government-appointed expert panel, which can order corrections of perceived historical inaccuracies.

According to the results of the screening, one textbook initially stated that "the Japanese army gave hand grenades to residents, making them commit mass suicide and kill each other."

But after the screeners took issue with the description, saying it could result in misunderstanding, the textbook was revised to state, "Mass suicides and killings took place among the residents using hand grenades given to them by the Japanese army."

Other textbooks simply deleted the words "by the Japanese army."

Two assembly members were traveling to Tokyo to hand deliver the statement to the education ministry, Assemblyman Akira Nakasone said.

Accounts of forced group suicides and murder-suicides in Okinawa are backed up by historical research, and by testimonies from victims' relatives.

Historians also say government propaganda induced civilians to believe U.S. soldiers would commit horrible atrocities, leading many to kill themselves and their loved ones to avoid capture.

But in recent years, some academics have questioned whether the suicides were forced — part of a general push by Japanese conservatives to soften criticism of Tokyo's wartime conduct.

 

[The7thSamurai]

Obeika, you might want to reconsider your statement about suicide being the "cowards way out" when talking in relation to other cultures and other times. In Japan at that time, suicide was considered the most noble way to right your wrongs. Considering this culture, I can understand why it would be a fact that the soldiers gave the civilians grenades to suicide with.

 

[KirinMan]

Obeika, you might want to reconsider your statement about suicide being the "cowards way out" when talking in relation to other cultures and other times. In Japan at that time, suicide was considered the most noble way to right your wrongs. Considering this culture, I can understand why it would be a fact that the soldiers gave the civilians grenades to suicide with.

One thing that was different here in the battle of Okinawa was the unprecedented numbers of Japanese soldiers that surrendered or were captured over 10,000 or roughly 10% of force that was here defending the island. The Japanese soldiers themselves knew that the end was near, and there was no reason for them to commit suicide nor force the civilians that they, he Japanese, forced and sandwiched between themselves and the attacking American forces. There was no need for that, it was an act of self preservation nothing else, and when that didnt work they killed themselves.

You should watch some of the actual footage taken by US soldiers and Marines at the time of women throwing their babies over cliffs and then jumping in after them. It is heart wrenching to say the least, and was totally preventable. It is unfortunate that these people believed the propaganda that the government at the time fed them

During the battle itself the then Governor of the prefecture asked on numerous occasions for directions for the civilian population of Okinawan's stuck between these two forces for safe haven areas that they could flee to and the Japanese forces refused to give them the directions on where to flee. They prefered to have the Okinawans as a shield for their defensive positions. They abused the local population and then when they found their own positions undefendable they committed suicide and forced others to do the same.

This culture may have once been that way in allowing people to commit ritual suicide to attone for mistakes or wrongdoings. I never wrote that they were not courageous, or not brave. They were a formidable enemy at the time, yet even with saying that I still have the opinion that committing suicide and forcing others that didn't have their same beliefs to do the same was a cowardly act.

 

[caster51]

You should watch some of the actual footage taken by US soldiers and Marines at the time of women throwing their babies over cliffs and then jumping in after them. It is heart wrenching to say the least, and was totally preventable. It is unfortunate that these people believed the propaganda that the government at the time fed them

it was a just hindsight-based opinion.☝
most ppl understand the bottom and Top later

On Sakhalin, Soviet forces moving southwards from August 10 encountered the Japanese 88th Division along the line of fortifications near the border with the Soviet sector of the island. The defenders' objective was to buy time for civilians to flee by ship to Hokkaido. Six thousand residents of Maoka (now Kholmsk) on the western coast had already been evacuated when the Soviet attack commenced before dawn on August 20. Soviet warships entered the harbor, firing on the town and the 18,000 refugees waiting to be evacuated. Civilians were machine-gunned as they ran towards the hills in an attempt to escape the Soviet troops pouring off the warships. Japanese records suggest that approximately 1,000 people were killed that morning. After reporting the happenings of the previous few hours, the final message from the last of nine young telephonists at the exchange at Maoka, 22 year-old Itoh Chie, ended with these poignant words.[11]
To everyone back in Naichi [Japanese mainland]…. To our friends at the Wakkanai Exchange... Soviet soldiers have just entered the building here in the Maoka Exchange. This will probably be the last message from Karafuto [Sakhalin]. The nine of us have stayed at our posts right through to the end, and it won't be long before all nine of us will have departed for the next world.

http://hnn.us/roundup/comments/22336.html

 

[KirinMan]

it was a just hindsight-based opinion.
most ppl understand the bottom and Top later

The people in many cases before jumping were told by Japanese translators attached to the US units that they would not be harmed.
Plus it isnt an opinion it is a fact.

The second half of your post here is off topic.

Here is a link to some movies that have been produced using actual footage from the battle itself.

My father-in-law's cousin was one of the supervisors in one of the films refered to as Ichi feet undou, it is a sobering movie, I will be buying it with in the next few days to show my kids about the horrors of the battle here and to teach them about the value of peace.

Records without Mercy

 

[caster51]

The people in many cases before jumping were told by Japanese translators attached to the US units that they would not be harmed.
Plus it isnt an opinion it is a fact.

I say you are talking just hindsight-based opinion.
It might decoy out of ...

 

[caster51]

Here is a link to some movies that have been produced using actual footage from the battle itself.

My father-in-law's cousin was one of the supervisors in one of the films refered to as Ichi feet undou, it is a sobering movie, I will be buying it with in the next few days to show my kids about the horrors of the battle here and to teach them about the value of peace.

why did U.S bomed them indiscriminately.....
it was natural to be a panic,fear and hopelessness

 

[pipokun]

...
Considering this culture, I can understand why it would be a fact that the soldiers gave the civilians grenades to suicide with.

The real tragedy in this case was the soldier was local boueitai whom the survivors also knew and survivors could be survived because they were not killed by their families or neighbours.

No matther how much demonized Japanese or the local boueitai, it was the naval gunfire that killed millions of people in the islands.

Wow, its sad that you two have to get personal as well as give meaningless responses to get anywhere in this thread.
diceke - wrong book. I don't even know what the #%@! you are on about now. This topic is about one thing, and one thing alone - lets go back to the start.
It is about these high school textbooks, books for children who are in high school.
And pipokun, stay on topic will you.
I have a single and simple question which I've now asked twice. Why have so many Okinawan survivors of WWII said that Imperial Japanese Army soldiers and officers told them to kill themselves?
And bonus question would be: Do the opinions and first hand experiences of these people "not count" in your little argument? And finally, are you suggesting that these people are wrong, or even worse, lying?

Nobody says so. The forced suicide stories was based on a book published in Okinawa just after the war, and activists and Kenzaburo Oe also refered to it. Then Sono did her field research more than 30 years ago after the end of occupation and showed how the myth was created. Don't worry she does not justify or glorify the battle at all.

And bonus from me, is you wife is talking only about the textbook? What was the related book which she read?

 

[KirinMan]

No matther how much demonized Japanese or the local boueitai, it was the naval gunfire that killed millions of people in the islands.

I understand that people get emotional about this subject however there is no need to over exaggerate the numbers of people here in Okinawa.

There are a little over 240,000 recognized deaths from all sides from the Battle of Okinawa.

Let's not get too carried away in trying to make a point please.