Rewriting History Again "Japan to Revise Books on WWII Suicides"

[Mikawa Ossan]

where part did you translate?

I have to agree. I saw nothing about a hand granade in the Japanese text.

 

[KirinMan]

I have to agree. I saw nothing about a hand granade in the Japanese text.

I agree that the translation wasn't perfect as I wrote it was a "google" translation. Here is the link to the English article;

Title Page As for the Naha mayor troop participation deletion regrettable/ﾂ"group suicideﾂ" correction article


and the translated article itself...

English translated article itself


Japanese article and link....

窶愿溪?抛ﾅｽs窶卍ｷﾂ ﾅ坦ﾅ?ﾃ問?膿ﾂ催ｭﾂ焦凪?堙才?｢ﾅ?ﾂｶﾂ／ﾂ「ﾂ集窶冂ﾅｽﾂｩﾅ塚?」ﾂ修ﾂ青ｳ

The broadcast about the demonstration was on the local news this evening here in Okinawa

 

[caster51]

(hand)grenade is bushi no nasake because it is easy and there is no pain
.Japanese article and link....
窶愿溪?抛ﾅｽs窶卍ｷﾂ ﾅ坦ﾅ?ﾃ問?膿ﾂ催ｭﾂ焦凪?堙才?｢ﾅ?ﾂｶﾂ／ﾂ「ﾂ集窶冂ﾅｽﾂｩﾅ塚?」ﾂ修ﾂ青ｳ

the truth was that grenade was given by soldiers..

there was no evidence that was forced

 

[KirinMan]

RBC News Video in Japanese.

窶氾ｰﾅｽj窶ｹﾂｳ窶ｰﾃ按鞘?倪?堙固椎ｸ窶凖ｨ窶禿｢窶佚ｨ窶堙?椎ｸ窶凖ｨ窶楼ﾅ津｣窶堙娯?ｹﾂｳ窶ｰﾃ按鞘?倪?堙ｰ窶敕､ﾅ?r窶堋ｵ窶堋ｽ窶弩ﾅｽﾂｦ窶ｰﾃｯ窶堋ｪ窶愿溪?抛ﾅｽs窶堙??J窶堋ｩ窶堙ｪ窶堙??堋｢窶堙懌?堋ｷﾂ。
ﾂ 窶堋ｱ窶堙娯?弩ﾅｽﾂｦ窶ｰﾃｯ窶堙最坦窶督ｽﾂ催ｭﾂ焦凪?堙可抗窶ｹc窶堋ｷ窶堙ｩﾋ?毒陳ｩﾂ鞘?倪?堙ｰ窶ｰﾃで塚??堋ｵ窶堋ｽ窶愿溪?抛ﾅｽs窶ｹc窶ｰﾃｯ窶堋ｪﾅ?Jﾂ催??堋ｵ窶堙??堋｢窶堙??ｰﾂｫ窶愿ｪﾂ静ｭ窶堙個集窶冂ﾅｽﾂｩﾅ塚??堙ｰ窶堙溪?堋ｮ窶堙ｨﾂ、窶愿ｺ窶怒ﾅ坦窶堙固?ﾃ問?膿窶堙ｰﾅｽﾂｦ窶堋ｷ窶ｹLﾂ述窶堋ｪﾂ催ｭﾂ焦凪?堋ｳ窶堙ｪ窶堋ｽ窶ｹﾂｳ窶ｰﾃ按鞘?倪?堙?修ﾂ青ｳ窶楼窶堙娯?ｹﾂｳ窶ｰﾃ按鞘?倪?堙ｰ窶敕､ﾅ?r窶弩ﾅｽﾂｦ窶堋ｵ窶堙??堋｢窶堙懌?堋ｷﾂ。
ﾂ 窶啀窶啀窶愿ｺ窶堙固津溪?楼ﾂ、窶愿溪?抛ﾅｽs窶ｹc窶ｰﾃｯ窶堙姑陳哉池ﾂー窶堙??J窶ｰﾃｯﾅｽﾂｮ窶堋ｪﾂ行窶堙ｭ窶堙ｪ窶愿溪?抛ﾅｽs窶ｹc窶ｰﾃｯ窶堙娯?ｹvﾂ坂?壺?ｹc窶卍ｷ窶堋ｪﾂ「窶堋ｱ窶堙娯?弩ﾅｽﾂｦ窶ｰﾃｯ窶堙ｰﾅｽs窶督ｯ窶堋ｪ窶｢ﾂｽﾋ彗窶堙ｰﾂ考窶堋ｦ窶堙ｩﾅ陳ｴ窶彑窶堙??堋ｵ窶堙??堙吮?堋ｵ窶堋｢ﾂ」窶堙?述窶堙冷?伉ｽ窶堋ｭ窶堙固ｽs窶督ｯ窶堙俄?藩?湘ｪ窶堙ｰﾅ津??堙鯛?堋ｩ窶堋ｯ窶堙懌?堋ｵ窶堋ｽﾂ。
ﾂ 窶弩ﾅｽﾂｦ窶ｰﾃｯ窶堙??堙最椎ｸ窶凖ｨ窶楼ﾅ津｣窶堙娯?ｹﾂｳ窶ｰﾃ按鞘?倪?堙娯?弩ﾅｽﾂｦ窶堙俄?ｰﾃ≫?堋ｦﾂ修ﾂ青ｳ窶｢窶昶?｢ﾂｪ窶堙ｰ窶敖ｲ窶堋ｫﾂ出窶堋ｵ窶堋ｽﾆ恥ﾆ値ﾆ停?ｹ窶堙?窶弩ﾅｽﾂｦ窶堋ｳ窶堙ｪ窶堙??堋｢窶堙?椎ｸ窶凖ｨ窶堙俄?堙ｦ窶堙ｩ窶愿?窶覇窶堙娯?｢ﾃ渉更窶堋ｪﾋ?ｪ窶禿壺?堙??堙ｭ窶堋ｩ窶堙ｩ窶堙ｦ窶堋､窶堙可工窶｢v窶堋ｳ窶堙ｪ窶堙??堋｢窶堙懌?堋ｷﾂ。
ﾂ 窶堋ｱ窶堙娯?弩ﾅｽﾂｦ窶ｰﾃｯ窶堙債、ﾂ債｡ﾅ椎ｽ窶啀窶啜窶愿ｺ窶堙懌?堙??J窶堋ｩ窶堙ｪ窶堙??堋｢窶堙懌?堋ｷﾂ。

Taken from;
RBC News

 

[caster51]

I cant understand what you are talking.
How long have you been in Japan?

they never said that was forced in these article.
In new textbook, there were cornered...

i think it is correct description

 

[MummyMia]

I still have a lot to read on this thread and I am finding it very informing. My knowledge of history is very sketchy so I am reading and learning from the posts on here. My one question is HAS ANYONE GOT THE RIGHT TO REWRITE HISTORY? In every country there are events in history that are disputed, but has anyone got the right to simply rewrite these events? I would have thought the best for all people who have yet to learn history is to incorporate new feelings and thoughts along with the original history, not to change it!!

 

[KirinMan]

Demonstration Video from Saturday June 9th

This video is taken from this page;
RBC News

窶ｹﾂｳ窶ｰﾃ按鞘?佛椎ｸ窶凖ｨ窶禿｢窶佚ｨ窶堙ｰ窶堙溪?堋ｮ窶堙≫?堙??堙坂?堋ｨ窶堙??堙??堋｢ﾂ、ﾂ抗窶ｹc窶堙固陳ｧ窶督ｯﾂ集窶ｰﾃｯ窶堋ｪﾅ?J窶堋ｩ窶堙ｪ窶堙懌?堋ｵ窶堋ｽﾂ。
ﾂ 窶氾ｰﾅｽj窶堙戸彡窶ｹﾃ遺?堋ｾ窶堙??敖ｽ窶敖ｭ窶堙個青ｺ窶堋ｪﾂ坂?壺?堙懌?堙≫?堙??堋｢窶堙懌?堋ｷﾂ。

I cant understand what you are talking.
How long have you been in Japan?

Caster are you trying to say you can't understand what the links I put here in Japanese are saying? They have video from this evenings local news here in Okinawa. Unfortunately they are all in Japanese.

However without any doubt they give proof that the Okinawan people are not standing by and letting the education ministry and government get away with attempting to rewrite what happened here during WWII.

Oh and it doesnt matter how long I've been here, but just to let you know it's a hell of a lot longer than you may think.

 

[caster51]

however if it was not correct from an evidence, what would you do?

 

[KirinMan]

however if it was not correct from an evidence, what would you do?

Caster this time I gave you proof and "live" testimony. So are you going to sit here and tell all those Okinawan people that they dont know what they are talking about?

Now I stand by it and let those here that read and understand Japanese make any comments to the contrary.

 

[caster51]

窶ｹﾂｳ窶ｰﾃ按鞘?佛椎ｸ窶凖ｨ窶禿｢窶佚ｨ窶堙ｰ窶堙溪?堋ｮ窶堙≫?堙??堙坂?堋ｨ窶堙??堙??堋｢ﾂ、ﾂ抗窶ｹc窶堙固陳ｧ窶督ｯﾂ集窶ｰﾃｯ 窶堋ｪﾅ?J窶堋ｩ窶堙ｪ窶堙懌?堋ｵ窶堋ｽﾂ。
ﾂ 窶氾ｰﾅｽj窶堙戸彡窶ｹﾃ遺?堋ｾ窶堙??敖ｽ窶敖ｭ窶堙個青ｺ窶堋ｪﾂ坂?壺?堙懌?堙≫?堙??堋｢窶堙懌?堋ｷ

yes there are ppl like you.

however,a candidate that supported " it was order " lost in election

 

[Goldiegirl]

Written history is never completely truthful. It can't be. It is always biased, based on the writer's perspective. Such as posts that claim "savage" killings when talking of one nations part in a war, yet their nation has killed and it's termed unfortunate. You see, just adding or deleting, even the act of choosing a word shows the bias of a writer. That is human nature, right or wrong. Anyway, that's how I view written history......

 

[caster51]

Caster this time I gave you proof and "live" testimony. So are you going to sit here and tell all those Okinawan people that they dont know what they are talking about?

Of course they were cornered...
many soldier also were cornered to kill themselves.

i said again the evidence of sucide that was orderd by army was only based on Tokashiki island. that is Akamatsu's incident.
However, It was wrong completely.

okinawa ppl did not elect a governor that the sucide was orderd and forced in his opinion

 

[pipokun]

Official approval front and back comparison of "group suicide"/the Naha city assembly lobby Okinawa game "group suicide (forced group death)" the exhibition which thinks of screening of school textbooks 11th morning, started at the Naha city assembly lobby. You excerpt the original and correction place of the problem part centering on the problem where the Japanese military participation from the high school historical textbook which two 〇 〇 is used after eight in "the group suicide" of Okinawa game is corrected & is deleted, alongside textbook 14 volume before and after the official approval object seven correcting of in a row, you have displayed in the panel. Centering on the description of "group suicide" from the panel which compares correction front and back, the subject, "Japanese military" comes out entirely from description and e.g., "it can force' group suicide to the Japanese military and/or '" to "being cornered, 'group suicide' it has changed the person whom it does", it understands clearly that it has fallen. As for the same exhibition in order to withdraw official approval opinion, the same city assembly which last month is approved on 15th sponsoring the opinion book plan which is sought. It has displayed to 15 day during June conventional session. With opening ceremony, as for high military officer optical Chair Hisashi "as the starting point where the citizen and the staff think of peace we would like to appeal that you think concerning Okinawa game strongly", you said and called the attendance of the citizen.

Obeika, what google do you use?

Google Translate
This is the google I used.

Furthermore "from many testimonies it makes clear that the fact that several hundred inhabitants commit suicide is fact,

Where is the fact in the article?
嘘はいけません。

 

[Mikawa Ossan]

Since not everyone can follow the Japanese in the evidence presented thus far...

There are something like 17 textbooks that are on display at Naha, comparing the same page before and after the revising. The example that is given is a change in wording from "(the people) were forced by the Japanese military" to commit suicide to "(the people) were cornered into" committing suicide.

There is indeed mention of hand grenades in the evidence presented, and no one is denying where they came from, but in the revised textbook it just isn't mentioned where they might have come from.

The video does show a demonstration against the proposed change to the textbook, with a man quoted as saying, "The military said, 'Don't become captives of the American army! If it looks like you will, kill yourself instead!' That was the Japanese military and the country's order. We must strongly oppose anyone who would try to twist history!" This man is described at "someone who experienced events" in the onscreen text.

Aside from the demonstrators in the news video, the articles themselves do not take a side. They matter of factly describe what is happening, from the exhibit of the textbooks to the mayor of Naha describing the change as "regrettable" to the demonstrations themselves.

 

[caster51]

if there were survivors and witness that were orderd and forced, they would be given annuity or pension for their family or relatives by law like akamatsu case.

How many civillian were given by that except akamatsu's case?

 

[Ewok85]

if there were survivors and witness that were orderd and forced, they would be given annuity or pension for their family or relatives by law like akamatsu case.
How many civillian were given by that except akamatsu's case?

It could be because they are dead, and dead people can't tell their side of the story? If the survivors have been saying for years that they were told to kill themselves by the Army, its logical and almost certain to assume that these peoples families, friends and neighbours committed suicide as a result of the coercion and orders given to them by the Army.

Just because they haven't been given fair compensation is not proof of a lack of force. That is like saying that someone who has been murder really only committed suicide because the proof is that noone was sent to jail for their murder. Reverse/circular logic.

 

[caster51]

that is why there is also no evidence that was orderd anf forced though obeika said there are many...

akamatsu shoulders the cross for them voluntary that was nothing to do with that because of their fair compensation. he was not there

its logical and almost certain to assume that these peoples families, friends and neighbours committed suicide as a result of the coercion and orders given to them by the Army.

and enemy has approached to kill.
and Who survived?
Naturally, the soldier,they has committed suicide.too

and Mr.Teruya who worked at Ryukyu-G invetigated all civilian Survivor for fair compensation in 50's whether it was ordered and forced or not

in saipan ,solidirs and 12,000civilians dived from Banzai Clíff and killed by shooting and bombing by american.
it was easy for them to imagine like that
http://hnn.us/roundup/comments/22336.html

even tokyo bombing, there were so many ppl who lost their kids or relatives killed themselves because of no hope to live

 

[Ewok85]

Why was there no hope to live? The American army wasn't there to rape and plunder like the second coming of Nanking, they were there to fight anyone who fought back and make an end to the aggression that the Japanese themselves had started.

 

[caster51]

Why was there no hope to live? The American army wasn't there to rape and plunder like the second coming of Nanking, they were there to fight anyone who fought back and make an end to the aggression that the Japanese themselves had started

off course Japanese army was not also there to rape...
Do you know which country's military forces was doing the severest
rule?

 

[Ewok85]

Which country upon invading another was the most severe to the people of said invaded country? Would depend on which country was invaded too I guess. I'm thinking you're going to tell me either way...

 

[KirinMan]

Caster you write "the soldier,they has committed suicide.too" are you attempting to justify the civilian suicides that occured.

You dont deny that they, the civilian suicides, happened just that they were "forced", correct?

Japanese people are fighting against this change, why is that Caster?

 

[KirinMan]

off course Japanese army was not also there to rape...
Do you know which country's military forces was doing the severest
rule?

If we are going to stay on topic here; the the answer is very easy from my point of view and in my opinion.

The Japanese Imperial Army, hands down. Brainwashing this entire island of people into believing, which was a dowright lie, that the American Military were canibal's and barbarian's, is a much more henious crime.

 

[GodEmperorLeto]

Brainwashing this entire island of people into believing, which was a dowright lie, that the American Military were canibal's and barbarian's, is a much more henious crime.

A lie is a lie is a lie, yes, but I have to ask this: Did the Japanese soldiers truly believe the Americans were hell-bent on pillaging the Okinawan populace?

The behavior of the Soviets in Sakhalin and Germany was horrific, and it is possible that the Japanese were under the impression that the Americans were going to do the same as the Ruskies.

In addition, I know I've linked it elsewhere, but take a look at War Without Mercy by John Dower. Both the Japanese and American propaganda focused on dehumanizing the enemy and portraying them as animalistic barbarians. I have no doubt plenty of people on both sides bought into the propaganda.

What I cannot accept is the Japanese soldiers forcing civilians at bayonet-point who didn't want to commit suicide and wanted to take their chances with the American occupiers, although they were a minority. Nevertheless, how much did the soldiers believe about the "American rapists"?

 

[Ewok85]

The behavior of the Soviets in Sakhalin and Germany was horrific, and it is possible that the Japanese were under the impression that the Americans were going to do the same as the Ruskies.

You're as bad as Caster - you have your timeline wrong. Sakhalin came long after the events we are talking about.

What I cannot accept is the Japanese soldiers forcing civilians at bayonet-point who didn't want to commit suicide and wanted to take their chances with the American occupiers, although they were a minority. Nevertheless, how much did the soldiers believe about the "American rapists"?

This is something I've been thinking about too. Technically soldiers cannot "order" civilians to do anything. In English anyway, moving up the scale they could advise it, suggest it, tell them to do it, force them to do it. But you need to remember that soldiers gave grenades to civilians for the purpose of committing suicide - which on its own is a huge breach of protocol, unless they were ordered to hand it over, in which case the Army has in essence ordered and sanctioned the action. Its like giving a gun with one bullet to a desperate and depressed individual - you know what is going to happen, you are equally responsible.

 

[diceke]

Why was there no hope to live? The American army wasn't there to rape and plunder like the second coming of Nanking, they were there to fight anyone who fought back and make an end to the aggression that the Japanese themselves had started.

That's naive. Do you really believe that American soldiers, in the heat battle, never raped and killed any enemy non-combatants, never killed enemy soldiers attempting to surrender? These atrocities seem modest compared with the indiscriminate bombings on major cities, but nevertheless, they were inevitable part of the battle, and they did happen, historians say. During the war, the sadistic acts of enemy soldiers were propagandized, but after the war, it's just that tight censorship controlled how much the media could report, and people do not talk about the incidents as much.

Reference: Saburo Ienaga: Senso Sekinin