D
diceke
Guest
What's the hidden agenda of the thread? Obeika's posts always confuse me.:?
Rewriting History Again "Japan to Revise Books on WWII Suicides"
- Thread starter KirinMan
- Start date
KirinMan
後輩
- 23 Jan 2007
- 2,173
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- Thread starter
- #27
Caster I dont get your point.....
Do you want to see the textbooks revised to say that the Japanese military was not responsible? Or not?
I think you are reading too much into something and don't take it at face value. I also think that the majority of "native" English speakers here would readily understand the point of this thread, if you have a question or are confused about something here please feel free to add it here and I would gladly explain it.
Do you want to see the textbooks revised to say that the Japanese military was not responsible? Or not?
I think you are reading too much into something and don't take it at face value. I also think that the majority of "native" English speakers here would readily understand the point of this thread, if you have a question or are confused about something here please feel free to add it here and I would gladly explain it.
D
diceke
Guest
I think you are reading too much into something and don't take it at face value. I also think that the majority of "native" English speakers here would readily understand the point of this thread, if you have a question or are confused about something here please feel free to add it here and I would gladly explain it.
I just think it's funny you have a strange obsession with the evil Japanese military, and what they did to whom.
On the other hand, you say you don't want to discuss "how many people were killed by who or whom".:?
Savage killing of 100,000 persons in Tokyo
Anyway, what does the "majority of native speakers" have anything to do with it?
KirinMan
後輩
- 23 Jan 2007
- 2,173
- 68
- Thread starter
- #30
Your words not mine, and to clarify something here I never refered to the Japanese military as being evil. However I am saying that the government and military at the time were responsible for many civilian deaths that occured here in Okinawa. The suicides also are a direct result of the propaganda used at that time. That is also a fact.I just think it's funny you have a strange obsession with the evil Japanese military, and what they did to whom.
What difference does it make? There is no need to discuss the who killed whom. Both sides killed civilians, that isnt the point of this thread. The point is the Japanese Government NOW wanting to rewrite the history of what actually occured here in Okinawa and it wasnt the figment of the Okinawan peoples imagination either.
- 28 Jul 2005
- 5,238
- 172
Interesting. The article in the OP is extremely similar to one which I had seen in The Daily Yomiuri a little more than a month ago, along with a couple of reports, or quotes from survivors.
Firstly I think it's stupid to work in the direction of editing out the possibilities of certain events/circumstances in history simply due what is argued as a lack of, or 'weak link' in evidence. The present climate of the political scene in Japan over the last several decades can well be said to evidence a growth in this tendency among some. The present Abe administration may be bending to that?
Regarding the acts and circumstances in history that make up the conflict in that era--especially here we are talking about the fighting over Okinawa--I am of the impression that much had been subtile, yet nevertheless fitting into a pattern, which, as pointed out above somewhere, was kind of 'Japanese-ish.' Without applying any value judgement on that aspect of Japanese thought itself, I would still say that it was a great shame that the society of that era had so little room for self-projection.
And now, for whatever it may be worth, I'd like to offer some moderating advice for the purpose of attempting to reduce stress build-up !
I have tried to read over everything as well as I could; have tried to understand everyone's points made, opinions expressed. And would like to offer the following:
Obeika's posts have been clear enough, I reason. There is no room for seeing the purpose of the thread for being anything more than just what the OP brings out.
There is no real reason to challenge any data or items which have been offered as evidence towards what had actually happened in Okinawa at that time here on this thread, on this thread, without first doing some fair and indepth research--just talking off the top of the head, or referring to sites that relate to similar or whatever things will not do. One needs to go to the libraries and do some real research. One needs to go to Okinawa and do some real research. One needs to investigate and cross-examine all the pertinent military historical records. One needs to spend a hand-full of years doing that first, then come back here and report it.
What has been said here, should also be allowed to just let stand as it is. I really don't feel, nor reason (at the moment, at least) that there is any need to challenge anything, but simply to state our understanding--of course, regarding offering evidences beyond what has come up so far, see above paragraph.
Now...let's do what we may to not let any bleeding come from other threads about similar matters, onto this one. Let's not let this thread become another meaningless battleground. Let's please just let this go for those who have not yet responded to this thread to do so, with as little aggressive counter-pointing as possible...PLEASE !!
Firstly I think it's stupid to work in the direction of editing out the possibilities of certain events/circumstances in history simply due what is argued as a lack of, or 'weak link' in evidence. The present climate of the political scene in Japan over the last several decades can well be said to evidence a growth in this tendency among some. The present Abe administration may be bending to that?
Regarding the acts and circumstances in history that make up the conflict in that era--especially here we are talking about the fighting over Okinawa--I am of the impression that much had been subtile, yet nevertheless fitting into a pattern, which, as pointed out above somewhere, was kind of 'Japanese-ish.' Without applying any value judgement on that aspect of Japanese thought itself, I would still say that it was a great shame that the society of that era had so little room for self-projection.
And now, for whatever it may be worth, I'd like to offer some moderating advice for the purpose of attempting to reduce stress build-up !
I have tried to read over everything as well as I could; have tried to understand everyone's points made, opinions expressed. And would like to offer the following:
Obeika's posts have been clear enough, I reason. There is no room for seeing the purpose of the thread for being anything more than just what the OP brings out.
There is no real reason to challenge any data or items which have been offered as evidence towards what had actually happened in Okinawa at that time here on this thread, on this thread, without first doing some fair and indepth research--just talking off the top of the head, or referring to sites that relate to similar or whatever things will not do. One needs to go to the libraries and do some real research. One needs to go to Okinawa and do some real research. One needs to investigate and cross-examine all the pertinent military historical records. One needs to spend a hand-full of years doing that first, then come back here and report it.
What has been said here, should also be allowed to just let stand as it is. I really don't feel, nor reason (at the moment, at least) that there is any need to challenge anything, but simply to state our understanding--of course, regarding offering evidences beyond what has come up so far, see above paragraph.
Now...let's do what we may to not let any bleeding come from other threads about similar matters, onto this one. Let's not let this thread become another meaningless battleground. Let's please just let this go for those who have not yet responded to this thread to do so, with as little aggressive counter-pointing as possible...PLEASE !!
D
diceke
Guest
What difference does it make? Maybe the US has nothing to rewrite, because it hasn't faced up to the issues of war guilt in the first place.
How a nation treats its history isn't easy for any country, people do not agree on how to remember past events in history, but I'm glad to know that Japan openly debates historiography and the issues of war guilt/innocence, and historical interpretations can be constantly challenged, for the better or worse.
KirinMan
後輩
- 23 Jan 2007
- 2,173
- 68
- Thread starter
- #33
How a nation treats its history isn't easy for any country, people do not agree on how to remember past events in history, but I'm glad to know that Japan openly debates historiography and the issues of war guilt/innocence, and historical interpretations can be constantly challenged, for the better or worse.
I can agree with a portion of this statement, however I don't see this as an open debate here in Japan. It is a decision made by the government and then implemented without open "public" discussion.
Not everyone here has been given their say and the feelings and factual historical events of what happened here in Okinawa and to it's people have been disregarded and ignored which is a shame.
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Hah?
we are debating it for 60 years
Now Akamatsu case is on trial.
his family accused kenzabro Oue and Iwanami pabulisher.
Ayako Sono, she wrote this inceident was a Myth in 1992
Amazon product ASIN 4569564763Ayako Sono - Wikipedia
---------------------------------------------------------------------
沖縄戦史の「神話的悪人」として記録される赤松大尉。太平洋戦争末期、彼は渡嘉敷島の村民から食糧を強制的に徴発し、さらに三百数十名の住民に集団自決を命じた、とされる。果たしてそうした事実は本当に存在したのか?極限的状況に立たされた「人間」とは一体何なのか?―本書では、膨大な資料と現地踏査、そして真実をあくまでも理性的に追究しようとする著者の真摯な思いが、惨劇の核心を白日の下にさらしていく。迫真の長編ノンフィクション。
Teruya 昇雄
he worked for Depertment of relief affairs at former Ryukyu gervenment in
50's
he investigated all ,hearing from all survivors in island...because of pension,condolence money ,etc by law of Victim's support .....
http://josaito.cool.ne.jp/togashiki/jiketsu.html
he worked for Depertment of relief affairs at former Ryukyu gervenment in
50's
he investigated all ,hearing from all survivors in island...because of pension,condolence money ,etc by law of Victim's support .....
http://josaito.cool.ne.jp/togashiki/jiketsu.html
KirinMan
後輩
- 23 Jan 2007
- 2,173
- 68
- Thread starter
- #36
Caster have you ever been to the Peace Memorial Park in Okinawa? Have you seem the museum there, seen the pictures or read the stories that the surviors have shared?
Have you ever attended a "Peace Studies" or Heiwa Gakkshu that nearly every Okinawan child in the past 20 years or so has attended?
Have you ever been to Himeyuri no to? Or listened to a lecture by people who survived the horrors of the battle of Okinawa?
Even to this day children throughout Okinawa in ES's study and learn about these events and more.
The point is that this time no matter what the government says to the rest of Japan, the people here in Okinawa will never forget the facts of what actually happened here.
Please don't ever underestimate them, the Okinawan people, because they don't stand up and fight or openly debate issues such as this. The culture here is non-confrontational, but that doesn't make them weak or lessen their intelligence nor the length of their memories.
The memories of the people that died, from all sides in the conflict will forever be memorialized and remembered.
I pray for the memories of the dead every year, from all sides, and it is something I pray that the world never forgets, no matter what the "government" here tries to do to change history.
Whether YOU choose to accept or believe it is another story altogether.
Gentlemen please remember the point of this thread is for people to remember that people died here because of the propaganda and beliefs of the time in question, not because of our 20/20 vision of today. It is a shame to me personally that the memories of many very good and decent people could be tarnished because the current Japanese administration wants to change the facts about what happened then.
It is also known that many Japanese soldiers committed suicide here in Okinawa as well, including the Commanding General Ushijima. They committed suicide because of their beliefs, sad but true, and to them honorable.
However today society here doesnt view suicide in the same view as it once did. We all are using 21st Century thinking to look back at an event(s) that the overwhelming majority of us have absolutely no idea about, other than what we have heard through word of mouth or through textbooks.
In my opinion there is no reason for the current administration to need to open these old wounds and cause more pain and dispair for the families and relatives of those that died here during the war.
What purpose does this serve? Particularly for the local Okinawan people, I would appreciate someone here trying to explain that, thank you.
Have you ever attended a "Peace Studies" or Heiwa Gakkshu that nearly every Okinawan child in the past 20 years or so has attended?
Have you ever been to Himeyuri no to? Or listened to a lecture by people who survived the horrors of the battle of Okinawa?
Even to this day children throughout Okinawa in ES's study and learn about these events and more.
The point is that this time no matter what the government says to the rest of Japan, the people here in Okinawa will never forget the facts of what actually happened here.
Please don't ever underestimate them, the Okinawan people, because they don't stand up and fight or openly debate issues such as this. The culture here is non-confrontational, but that doesn't make them weak or lessen their intelligence nor the length of their memories.
The memories of the people that died, from all sides in the conflict will forever be memorialized and remembered.
I pray for the memories of the dead every year, from all sides, and it is something I pray that the world never forgets, no matter what the "government" here tries to do to change history.
Whether YOU choose to accept or believe it is another story altogether.
Gentlemen please remember the point of this thread is for people to remember that people died here because of the propaganda and beliefs of the time in question, not because of our 20/20 vision of today. It is a shame to me personally that the memories of many very good and decent people could be tarnished because the current Japanese administration wants to change the facts about what happened then.
It is also known that many Japanese soldiers committed suicide here in Okinawa as well, including the Commanding General Ushijima. They committed suicide because of their beliefs, sad but true, and to them honorable.
However today society here doesnt view suicide in the same view as it once did. We all are using 21st Century thinking to look back at an event(s) that the overwhelming majority of us have absolutely no idea about, other than what we have heard through word of mouth or through textbooks.
In my opinion there is no reason for the current administration to need to open these old wounds and cause more pain and dispair for the families and relatives of those that died here during the war.
What purpose does this serve? Particularly for the local Okinawan people, I would appreciate someone here trying to explain that, thank you.
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Okinawan's mass sucide is surely tragedy.
there was no hope to win.
Yamato was also sent to okinawa for that.
and that fight was honourable death of readiness...
we never do to forget that okinawa was place of ugly WAR.
we never forget to feel sorry to Okinawan.
However." order and forced to sucide" is a different problem.
The Democratic Party, Mr, Kan's speech for election about " propagada like Obeika said" was not accepted by okinawan
there was no hope to win.
Yamato was also sent to okinawa for that.
and that fight was honourable death of readiness...
we never do to forget that okinawa was place of ugly WAR.
we never forget to feel sorry to Okinawan.
However." order and forced to sucide" is a different problem.
The Democratic Party, Mr, Kan's speech for election about " propagada like Obeika said" was not accepted by okinawan
KirinMan
後輩
- 23 Jan 2007
- 2,173
- 68
- Thread starter
- #39
I disagree with you that its not a different problem, it is one and the same and like I wrote in my previous reply it is YOUR choice to accept and believe that it happened or not.
Caster I hope you realize that it really is difficult at times to attempt to carry on a conversation with you.
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anyway okinawan did not accept themselves that you said .that is, order and forced.
you know that.?
it is not religion, either.
if there is an obvious evidence , I would accept it
that is why I am always asking " are you chinese or korean"
so Beika means uncivilized?
D
diceke
Guest
I'm not so sure, but does Obeika mean double-talk?☝
KirinMan
後輩
- 23 Jan 2007
- 2,173
- 68
- Thread starter
- #42
In my opinion no one "wins" here if the government chooses to rewrite the history of what happened during the Battle of Okinawa.
The dead are dead, and nothing we can say will change that. That I am sure we all can agree upon. The memories of the dead remain alive with us that are living and in the memorials and books that have been erected or written in the hope that nothing like this ever occurs again.
The people that committed suicide Japanese and Okinawan's alike "believed" in what they were doing as "right".
It is hard for me to believe, from living here amongst the Okinawan people for as long as I have to believe anything other than they, the one's that choose suicide for themselves and their families in some cases, acted upon the information, education, and instructions of the leadership or government at that time.
For those that dont know it Okinawa does not have the same history as "mainland" Japan, even though it was influenced by the "mainland" for many years in it's history it didnt become an "official" part of Japan until the mid 1870's which is only about 70 years previous to the start of WWII. We live in a day and age where information flows through our fingers like water, but image if you can back then. The people only had access to information from what the government gave them, their education was limited to that and that alone. Nearly everything about their culture of literally thousands of years was outlawed and they had no choice. It was accept it or die. That was then this is now.
Let's not use the passage of time to assuage the feelings of guilt. What other reason could there be for the motivation to change what is written history now?
I say let's all of us let the dead rest in peace and let them live in our memories as honorable people, doing what they thought was just and right.
The dead are dead, and nothing we can say will change that. That I am sure we all can agree upon. The memories of the dead remain alive with us that are living and in the memorials and books that have been erected or written in the hope that nothing like this ever occurs again.
The people that committed suicide Japanese and Okinawan's alike "believed" in what they were doing as "right".
It is hard for me to believe, from living here amongst the Okinawan people for as long as I have to believe anything other than they, the one's that choose suicide for themselves and their families in some cases, acted upon the information, education, and instructions of the leadership or government at that time.
For those that dont know it Okinawa does not have the same history as "mainland" Japan, even though it was influenced by the "mainland" for many years in it's history it didnt become an "official" part of Japan until the mid 1870's which is only about 70 years previous to the start of WWII. We live in a day and age where information flows through our fingers like water, but image if you can back then. The people only had access to information from what the government gave them, their education was limited to that and that alone. Nearly everything about their culture of literally thousands of years was outlawed and they had no choice. It was accept it or die. That was then this is now.
Let's not use the passage of time to assuage the feelings of guilt. What other reason could there be for the motivation to change what is written history now?
I say let's all of us let the dead rest in peace and let them live in our memories as honorable people, doing what they thought was just and right.
- 4 Jun 2006
- 561
- 39
I'm going to preamble my following statements with this opening thought:
The Pacific War was a tragedy of epic proportions. Every war is tragic, but the Pacific War especially so. Secondly, war is war. I am an historian and a fan of military studies. I've studied wars and battles from Qadesh to modern Iraq and Afghanistan, and read everything from Sun Tzu to von Clausewitz to Vegetius. Like John Keegan said in his book The Face of Battle, "I have never been in a battle, nor have I been near one." None of us can imagine the psychological trauma of the phalanx clash, the cavalry charge into a pike hedge, or the bombardment of artillery shells into a trench, unless we've actually lived through it. And therefore, none of us has a lot of ground to go laying blame on people. There will be civilian casualties in war, and there will be collateral damage. And so long as there are humans, there will be war. This is a sad truth, and there's no point in debating it.
With that said...
Why? The vast bulk of the Japanese of today didn't fight World War II. They didn't commit any atrocities or war crimes. They are not guilty at all.
Nevertheless, the deliberate suppression of history in order to "save face" and support nationalistic political agendas is unforgivable, plain and simple. Caster is a primary example of this sort of miseducation, as the deeds (or misdeeds) of his ancestors have a direct impact on his perception and feelings of national (and self-)worth. Thus, in order to avoid feeling blame or perceiving oneself as wrong, he has bought into a lot of revisionist history (i.e. "there was no Nanking Massacre" and other historical falsehoods).
Those who committed suicide shouldn't be honored, in my opinion, but rather mourned. They died because of a lie. The Americans were coming not with rape and plunder in mind, but Hershey bars. My great-uncle's friend went Section-8 when he saw the people who committed suicide, incapable of fighting because of the bodies of women and children he saw. We may have dropped incendiary bombs on entire cities, but the vast bulk of enlisted men did not intend to despoil the Okinawan populace.
Honoring their memory rather than mourning their unfortunate deaths is backwards because it lends creedence to the entire situation. It legitimizes it. I don't honor the people who died at the World Trade Center, they didn't die for anything special, they died because someone hated both them and the U.S. They deserve to be mourned, but not honored. These are two very different things.
The Pacific War was a tragedy of epic proportions. Every war is tragic, but the Pacific War especially so. Secondly, war is war. I am an historian and a fan of military studies. I've studied wars and battles from Qadesh to modern Iraq and Afghanistan, and read everything from Sun Tzu to von Clausewitz to Vegetius. Like John Keegan said in his book The Face of Battle, "I have never been in a battle, nor have I been near one." None of us can imagine the psychological trauma of the phalanx clash, the cavalry charge into a pike hedge, or the bombardment of artillery shells into a trench, unless we've actually lived through it. And therefore, none of us has a lot of ground to go laying blame on people. There will be civilian casualties in war, and there will be collateral damage. And so long as there are humans, there will be war. This is a sad truth, and there's no point in debating it.
With that said...
Which is why revisionist history is so darn heinous and dastardly.
I don't agree with this totally. Plenty of women and children were forced over cliffs at bayonet point, from what I've heard. Then again, I may be wrong.
I agree with point two but disagree with point one.
Why? The vast bulk of the Japanese of today didn't fight World War II. They didn't commit any atrocities or war crimes. They are not guilty at all.
Nevertheless, the deliberate suppression of history in order to "save face" and support nationalistic political agendas is unforgivable, plain and simple. Caster is a primary example of this sort of miseducation, as the deeds (or misdeeds) of his ancestors have a direct impact on his perception and feelings of national (and self-)worth. Thus, in order to avoid feeling blame or perceiving oneself as wrong, he has bought into a lot of revisionist history (i.e. "there was no Nanking Massacre" and other historical falsehoods).
I think that's playing too much on the fence. Just because Custer thought slaughtering Lakota was just and right doesn't make him any less of a sadistic gloryhound that butchered hundreds (if not thousands) of noncombatants before he met his just end at Little Big Horn. We need to see the past as it was, objectively, because if we don't, we can't learn from it. Honor those who deserve to be honored, and remember those who were evil, criminal, and tyrrannical as what they truly were.
Those who committed suicide shouldn't be honored, in my opinion, but rather mourned. They died because of a lie. The Americans were coming not with rape and plunder in mind, but Hershey bars. My great-uncle's friend went Section-8 when he saw the people who committed suicide, incapable of fighting because of the bodies of women and children he saw. We may have dropped incendiary bombs on entire cities, but the vast bulk of enlisted men did not intend to despoil the Okinawan populace.
Honoring their memory rather than mourning their unfortunate deaths is backwards because it lends creedence to the entire situation. It legitimizes it. I don't honor the people who died at the World Trade Center, they didn't die for anything special, they died because someone hated both them and the U.S. They deserve to be mourned, but not honored. These are two very different things.
- 1 Nov 2005
- 446
- 39
Rewriting history again..
Thank you GodEmperorLeto,
I also love history, and I know that all history can be very ugly at times.
And you are so right, the Pacific war was a real tragedy.
So many people were killed, so many people suffered.
May I ask you a question? Do you know how many men, women and children were killed during World War Two? I mean in Europe and the Pacific?
It must have been millions of lives that ended far too early because of this most horrible war. I am always hoping that people will learn stop killing each other. That they will make Music or play any Sport together.
I suppose that only some creatures from another Planet can unite us?
But I also believe that there are far more good than bad people all over the world. A good leader (from any country in this world) must stand up and bring us all peace for several generations. Being open and honest is the best way of telling our great grandchildren the history of World War Two.
Thank you GodEmperorLeto,
I also love history, and I know that all history can be very ugly at times.
And you are so right, the Pacific war was a real tragedy.
So many people were killed, so many people suffered.
May I ask you a question? Do you know how many men, women and children were killed during World War Two? I mean in Europe and the Pacific?
It must have been millions of lives that ended far too early because of this most horrible war. I am always hoping that people will learn stop killing each other. That they will make Music or play any Sport together.
I suppose that only some creatures from another Planet can unite us?
But I also believe that there are far more good than bad people all over the world. A good leader (from any country in this world) must stand up and bring us all peace for several generations. Being open and honest is the best way of telling our great grandchildren the history of World War Two.
KirinMan
後輩
- 23 Jan 2007
- 2,173
- 68
- Thread starter
- #48
I honestly didnt look at it from this perspective, I guess it could also be from which point of view one looks at the situation that occured. In the states Americans honor the people that died in WWII and any war for that matter on Memorial Day. All war dead even those that committed suicide.
The Okinawan's honor their war dead as well on Memorial Day here. It's kind of hard now to distingush between how each person died here.
I feel that one can both honor and mourn a persons passing, and the people that committed suicide deserve that respect.
KirinMan
後輩
- 23 Jan 2007
- 2,173
- 68
- Thread starter
- #49
Well it isn't just me that's concerned...
A "google" translation....
Not a great translation but enough for people to get the idea. There was a rather large demonstration here in Okinawa against the proposed re-writing of the text books with regards to the suicide issue during WWII. The Naha City office has displayed the old textbooks and the new textbooks with the proposed revision(s). There is a petition and signature campaign going on now with the plan of submitting it to the Education Minister against allowing these proposed changes. They have alread collected something in the neighborhood of 35,000 signatures over the past weekend alone in the area around the demonstration, which was held across the street from the Prefectural Office building.
Numerous speakers at the demonstration, people who were there during WWII testified and told the assembled crowd of thousands, what everyone knew, "The Japanese Government and Japanese Military at the time expressly instructed and ordered the Okinawan people, for Emperor and Country that they should commit suicide, rather than be captured by the US Military"
Their testimonies and recounting of what they experienced was emotional and extrememly moving.
The "grass-roots" movement has started, it shall be interesting how the government responds to the Okinawan people.
A "google" translation....
Not a great translation but enough for people to get the idea. There was a rather large demonstration here in Okinawa against the proposed re-writing of the text books with regards to the suicide issue during WWII. The Naha City office has displayed the old textbooks and the new textbooks with the proposed revision(s). There is a petition and signature campaign going on now with the plan of submitting it to the Education Minister against allowing these proposed changes. They have alread collected something in the neighborhood of 35,000 signatures over the past weekend alone in the area around the demonstration, which was held across the street from the Prefectural Office building.
Numerous speakers at the demonstration, people who were there during WWII testified and told the assembled crowd of thousands, what everyone knew, "The Japanese Government and Japanese Military at the time expressly instructed and ordered the Okinawan people, for Emperor and Country that they should commit suicide, rather than be captured by the US Military"
Their testimonies and recounting of what they experienced was emotional and extrememly moving.
The "grass-roots" movement has started, it shall be interesting how the government responds to the Okinawan people.
