Lets not hate anyone. Lets try our very best in the future to be kind and not kill or destroy each other so brutally. We are a billion people roll into one. If we hurt someone or a nation everyone will be hurting terribly and the vicious circle will go on forever. Let us not repeat this kind of history. We only have one world. Do we really want to destroy it?
Hello Saba from Kuala Lumpur,
I fully agree with you. Where ever we come from, we can all make friends in other countries. I allow myself to dislike certain governments from certain countries, but I can make friends with the peoples of those countries.
As I found out for myself; there are good people all over our beautiful world.
Well, I will say one thing, I do find some of RussianGuy's comments alarming. I can understand why he is trying to comment on opinions of Japan in his comparison of US actions both present and past with Japan's actions. Certainly victors do like to paint a 'memory' of history that shows them in a positive light, but also so do losers when they get a chance to do so. The Chinese didn't manage to drive the Japanese out, they only managed to outwait the Japanese until their military's defeat.
All countries try to influence other opinions of themselves, some do it in a more obvious way. The US uses militaristic and economic feints and thrusts to try and cow and influence other countries' foreign policies. The Russians (as the USSR) by comparison had a similar approach until they splintered and eventually became the current Russia. Of course, some would argue Russia's current approach to dealing with ex-satelite countries, especially Ukraine, is not that different than before, just using a slightly different stick.
Yes the Iraq war and subsequent occupation is a mess, and Bush is/was a bit mad for thinking that a drive to oust Hussein was not going to destabalize that country and the surrounding area.
As to Israel, that was established with the help of the British (not the US), though of course the US has long aided the Israeli cause, both publically and covertly.
So in my opinion, if the US actions are wrong, how can the Japanese actions be right? Or of course, you feel everyone should apolgize (which would be nice, but it's not terribly realistic) for their aggressive actions in bringing any war outside their borders?
As you have seen mentioned in the thread, keep the focus on why people may dislike Japan, if you want threads on the Iraq war or on the use of US military might, start new threads to encompass them. As to the US helping the world, yes, they didn't do it all out of pure heartedness, but do you think the Japanese and Germany would have ended the war as victors in such a manner? I sincerely doubt it, and then we might have seen what continued occupation looked like first hand throughout Europe and parts of Asia (unfortunately, it might have mirrored the continueing mess in Africa, though colonization of the continent is only part of the story of the 'dark' continent's continual struggle to develop).
Elizabeth van Kampen .Crazy Russian and Saba
Why don't you join this thread:Why Do So Many People Love Japan
After all ,here is a board of "Politics ".some of your words maybe unrelated to this board,please notice the topic of this thread"Why Other Countries Hate Japan "
we just discuss the reason of it ,not discuss"how to stop people disliking Japan"
and about "how to stop people disliking Japan" ,Maciamo already mentioned it:
Maciamo said:
The problem is that Japan hasn't properly apologizes to China yet, and that Japanese prime ministers continue to visit the Yasukuni Shrine, dedicated to class A war criminals, annually. Another issue is that Japanese history books used in schools do not mention atrocities committed in WWII (or skip WWII altogether). This is in sharp contrast to the situation in Germany, where children learn exactly (and maybe with greater emphasis than in other European countries) the horrors committed by the Nazi.
......
Japan, on its side, has racist politicians like Shintaro Ishihara who claim the Nanjing massacre never happened and say most Chinese living in Japan are criminals and should be expelled.
So what can be done ?
It seems obvious that the behaviour of ordinary people isn't going to change until the governments improve their relationship first. IMO, Japan should make the first step, ...because it is responsible in the first place.
What Japan should do is :
1) Change history books used in schools and explain clearly and neutrally what happened during WWII, including the Nanjing massacre.
2) Prohibit politicians from making racist comments or negate actual facts (about WWII)
3) Prohibit politicians from going to Yasukuni Jinja, or move war criminals somewhere else
4) Avoid sanctioning or over-taxing Chinese products
5) Make it easier for Chinese people born in Japan to be naturalized, (and possibly also for Chinese tourists to visit Japan).
......
Well, I will say one thing, I do find some of RussianGuy's comments alarming. I can understand why he is trying to comment on opinions of Japan in his comparison of US actions both present and past with Japan's actions. Certainly victors do like to paint a 'memory' of history that shows them in a positive light, but also so do losers when they get a chance to do so. The Chinese didn't manage to drive the Japanese out, they only managed to outwait the Japanese until their military's defeat.
All countries try to influence other opinions of themselves, some do it in a more obvious way. The US uses militaristic and economic feints and thrusts to try and cow and influence other countries' foreign policies. The Russians (as the USSR) by comparison had a similar approach until they splintered and eventually became the current Russia. Of course, some would argue Russia's current approach to dealing with ex-satelite countries, especially Ukraine, is not that different than before, just using a slightly different stick.
Yes the Iraq war and subsequent occupation is a mess, and Bush is/was a bit mad for thinking that a drive to oust Hussein was not going to destabalize that country and the surrounding area.
As to Israel, that was established with the help of the British (not the US), though of course the US has long aided the Israeli cause, both publically and covertly.
So in my opinion, if the US actions are wrong, how can the Japanese actions be right? Or of course, you feel everyone should apolgize (which would be nice, but it's not terribly realistic) for their aggressive actions in bringing any war outside their borders?
As you have seen mentioned in the thread, keep the focus on why people may dislike Japan, if you want threads on the Iraq war or on the use of US military might, start new threads to encompass them. As to the US helping the world, yes, they didn't do it all out of pure heartedness, but do you think the Japanese and Germany would have ended the war as victors in such a manner? I sincerely doubt it, and then we might have seen what continued occupation looked like first hand throughout Europe and parts of Asia (unfortunately, it might have mirrored the continueing mess in Africa, though colonization of the continent is only part of the story of the 'dark' continent's continual struggle to develop).
I see trees of green, red roses too
I see them bloom for me and you
And I think to myself what a wonderful world.
I see skies of blue and clouds of white
The bright blessed day, the dark sacred night
And I think to myself what a wonderful world.
The colours of the rainbow so pretty in the sky
Are also on the faces of people going by
I see friends shaking hands saying how do you do
They're really saying I love you.
I hear babies crying, I watch them grow
They'll learn much more than I'll never know
And I think to myself what a wonderful world
Yes I think to myself what a wonderful world.
Hi. I am a newbie. I post once and lost my post. So I will repost it again here since its related. I have visited Japan several times. I have Japanese roommates in college back in states. In general, I like Japanese culture and Japanese people. But what sadden me is that many young Japanese on this forum and in real life are getting impatient regarding Chinese, Koreans, or other Asians' demand of apologies for Japanese wrongdoing in WWII. Some Japanese even blame other Asians countries such as China or Korea using Japanese war crime issues to stir up nationalism. These people are badly mistaken.
I can tell you that the HATE towards Japan is grass rooted in Chinese general public. The Chinese government has done a lot to calm people down to have better relationship with Japan. Why this hate you might ask? Because Japan has never shown real remorse towards the victims like Germans did. Because the level of brutality Japanese shown to Asians in WWII made Nazi treatment of Jews like angels.
Anyone who compares what Japanese did in WWII to other aggressive powers in the human history does not know what he is talking about and only raise the suspicion of trying to white wash Japanese atrocities. The Japanese soldiers were so inhuman and cruel towards victims its very rarely in human history. Contrary to general belife that Japanese war crimes were only committed by selected few class A war criminals who were also enshrined in Yasukuni temple, in reality, war crimes were conducted by low level soldiers in massive scale. The worst thing was Japanese army not only killed civilians and POWs to establish authority, they killed them for fun. That's what distinguishes Japanse war criminials to other war criminials.
The infamous Japanese 731 unit in Northeast China conducted numerous biological experiments on live human. They cut people's bodies open alive to see victims reaction. Massive gangrapes are common sence with Japanese army. After raping them, Japanese soldiers tortures those girls and women, such as cutting open victims virgina and utirus alive, then kill victims slowly for fun. Japanese army even conducted competition to see which soldiers chopped more civilians and POWs head in killing GAMES in Nanking Massacre.
Why people are angry about Japanese's half assed effort to apologize? Because thier ACTIONS are not consistent to thier WORDS. They say sorry in one hand and they worship those Yasukuni criminals in the other. More importantly, Yasukuni Shrine operates a museum, the Yushukan ???. It provides revisionary historical presentation about Japanese role in WWII and in a way it glorifies Japanese aggression. I have visited Yasukuni, the place is disgusting!!
Here are graphic links shows what Japanese did in WWII: (very gross, be warm!)
Once you see those pics you will understand why Chinese or some ther Asians hate what Japanese prime minister is doing by worshiping their so called Japanese war deads(animals) in that temple. What german did to Jewish people were nothing compariable to Japanese behavior in WWII.
Or just go watch the video tape titled "Nightmare in Nanking (Rape of Nanking): China & Japan at War. Japanese Atrocities in Asia (2005)" There are many graphic pics and video clips of horrible crimes committed by Japanese soldiers in that video.
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Editorial Reviews
Wenli Liu, Editor, Sina.com
"The whole world should see this movie."
Description
"Nightmare in Nanking" includes photographs and film-footage which are so horrible that it staggers the imagination. Japanese soldiers tear out the eyes of children, gang-rape women then set them on fire, bury people alive or use them for bayonet practice...beheading women, children, old men....and torturing people for fun...and then laughing hysterically as victims, who have been set on fire, run screaming through the night...
"We had fun killing Chinese. We caught some innocent Chinese and either buried them alive, or pushed them into a fire, or beat them to death with clubs. When they were half dead we pushed them into ditches and burned them, torturing them to death. Everyone gets his entertainment this way. Its like killing dogs and cats." --Asahi Shimbun, Japanese soldier, describing Japanese atrocities during the Rape of Nanking.
"We took turns raping them. We always stabbed and killed them. When we were raping her, we looked at her as a woman. But when we killed her, we just thought of her as something like a pig." --Azuma Shiro, Japanese soldier.
I think your opinion that Japan's acts are so terrible is part of the issue, yes, they were horrible, but China, Korea, they fail to understand their not much better, China definately isnt any sort of angel for its human rights record.
Asia demands apologies but it isnt in a state of mnid to forgive, this is counter-productive and doesnt help any.
If China, Korea, Asia can learn to forgive, Japan can feel it can make amends without being abused and taken for a political ride.
Germany is a good example because Europe was big enough to accept the German peoples apologies, and work together to create a better europe for everyone, unfortunately Asia still seems highly factionalised and nationalistic, Japan isnt innocent of this observation either i will add.
More unified Asia could quite easily dominate the global economy and politics, Making the EU look like an enfeebled little experiment.
nurizeko,I read you post above,you are a boy from scotland,but you show you concern to the Asian. I think it is good ~ and I'd like read more of you post about it.
gs001 said:
Japan is a nation of extreme unique.
When they launched war, they became brutal to the utmost,
When they surrendered, they immediately became tame to
the utmost to the American. people who didn't suffer from their invasion
or live far from them or be born after WWII or ignorant
about their behavior in WWII will blame to China like that
"look, how docile Japanese are, why are you hostile to Japan"?
Here is the answer: only their closest neighbor can see what
hide behind their gentle mask. in deep heart, Japanese never
believe they have done anything wrong during WWII.
personally I don't care about whether they apologize or not,
but we must keep an eye on them and prevent them from being
brutal again.
If our neighbor is Germany, we don't need to worry about that.
Yes Indeed!
The best WAY to settle this problem is to be powerful as USA..
I don't care if Japan would apologize or how does it apologize. In fact ,it won't apologize forever.
I only care about how China can be powerful as USA.
No matter how worse the Japan did in the past~ we can forgive it .In fact ,we already forgive it ~China abnegate the reparations that Japan should pay after the war! Chinese people is virtuous,they didn't want to see the Japanese People suffer more pain after the war,and Japan and China establish diplomatic relations in 1970's.
Give a example:
A prisoner did many bad things,however ,it being punished and sent to the prison.Then we shall forgive him.
But ,the prisoner think what he has done is right~ and prepare to do it again.
In this case ,do you still feel good ? Look at what Japan doing now:
1 ﾋ?闇ｽﾃｱ窶佛? ﾂ渉ｬ ﾂ静ｲ为ﾅｽﾃｱ窶廬众窶伉ｽﾂ坂??#32423;ﾅ?ﾂｯ员ﾅｽQﾂ拜窶禿ｵﾂ坂?伉神ﾅｽﾃ青，窶敕?#35748;ﾂ侵华历ﾅｽj
2 ﾂ修窶ｰﾃｼ窶ｹﾂｳ窶ｰﾃ?#20070;ﾂ，窶敕?#35748;ﾋ?ｽ窶儻窶ｰﾂｻ窶愿ｱ战窶廬ﾂ催淞行
3 窶｢}ﾂ植窶佚､窶愿?#21183;窶氾債，ﾅ?ﾂｱ预 窶佚､ ﾋ徘ﾂ青ｭﾅｽﾂ｡ﾂ，ﾋ??#23545;ﾂ抗窶佚･陆
4 ﾅ津ｹﾋ?ｸ窶ｰﾃ｢ 罗 ﾅｽzﾂ，ﾅｽg窶吮??窶ｰﾃ｢窶廬ﾋ??窶佚･线窶挧产
5 ﾂ坂??#35843;窶敖ｽ对窶ｰﾂ｢窶督ｿ窶ｰﾃｰﾂ焦?#23545;华窶｢ﾂ税?ﾃｭ窶ｹﾃ?#36816;
11 ﾋ?ｲ许达 赖访窶愿ｺﾂ。
12 ﾋ徘ﾋ徘东ﾂ森,窶ｹﾅｽ窶扼窶禄报窶慊ｹﾂ催鯛?適ﾋ彖军ﾂ坂?塲?ﾂｯﾂ湘戸彖ﾅ?Cﾅｽﾂｩ窶膿ﾋ徘ﾅ?C军联ﾃ｣ﾂ､.
13 窶ｹ窶?#32477;窶凖ｱ窶ｹﾅｸ东窶徒遗窶板ｯ窶ｰﾂｻ窶｢ﾂ絶?廬资窶板ｿ
14 ﾂ攻击窶吮?? ﾂ坂?倪?廬ﾂ春晓窶禿ｻﾅｸﾆ停?彡,,窶ｺﾃｳﾅｽﾃｶ权窶督ｯ间ﾅ?ﾃｩ业开ﾂ催鯛?猫窶侏?#35758;领ﾋ?ｦ窶廬窶禿ｻﾅｸﾆ
15 ﾂ人窶督ｯ币ﾂ渉｡值ﾅｽnﾂ催ｬﾋ愿塲ｽﾃ
16 ﾅｽU窶拇ﾂ"窶吮?? ﾂ坂?侏??#32961;论ﾂ"窶廬ﾂ催淒?@ﾂ，窶播窶凪?壺?ｰﾂｻ窶吮?? ﾂ坂?倪?廬窶ｹ}ﾂ静ｦ锋ﾂ。
17 窶凖｡窶氾ｲ货窶｢ﾂｨﾅ｡S华ﾂ，ﾃ･W视华ﾂ人
18 为ﾅｽO窶ｹﾂｬ电ﾃ｢窶ｹ窶凖ｱ窶ｹﾅｸ窶氾ｲ钢ﾂ催
19 资ﾂ鞘?｢ﾂ坂?倪?愿?汉窶ｺ@
20 ﾃｧﾅｸﾂ青ｧ窶吮??ﾅ｡ﾂ?ﾂ青･窶愿ｺ窶廬ﾂ戰窶板ｪ
21 ﾋ?藩 ??妇窶｢s赔偿
22 窶亘华窶ｰﾃ≫?愿ｼ窶敕ｼﾂ洲银ﾂ行组织
23 ﾂ催?ﾂ。18窶懌?凪?弖ﾂ催敘ｽﾃｬﾅ?C窶佚･ﾃ｣ﾃｦﾂ集窶佚娯?ｺdﾂ渉ｩﾂ，窶怒ﾂ青･窶吮??华忆窶ｹﾃｪ窶愿ｺ窶ｹpﾅ?ﾃ??愬ｾﾂ青ｬﾅ嘆窶廬ﾋ彖窶冕ﾅｽﾃｨ搂窶吮??华ﾂ鞘?版ｽqﾂ渉ｵ摇
24 篡窶ｰﾃｼ窶吮??药为ﾋ彗药ﾂ。
25 窶徒 窶ｹﾅｾﾂ人头ﾂ最督，ﾋ彖ﾂ人ﾂ焦?ﾂ静 战灾ﾅｽcﾅ?[ﾂ，窶毒督静ｧﾂ出窶忱ﾂ，ﾅ徒寻ﾂ湘ｭ
26 遗ﾅ撤ﾃ?y弹
27 窶ｰﾂｻﾅ?w窶｢ﾂ税?ﾃｭ
28 窶敖ｽﾂ静ｶ飞ﾅ?ﾃｷ对窶｢t窶吮?? ﾂ坂?
29 ﾂ渉ｫ窶吮?? ﾂ坂??#35270;为ﾂ静ｶﾂ催?#25932;ﾂ人
30 窶禿祥??#23545;华贷ﾅ?ﾂｼ窶牌窶ｹﾂｲ窶吮??ﾂ坂? 31 ﾋ彖窶卍ｼﾂ渉｡飞ﾅ?ﾃｷﾋ彗窶ｰﾃ､ﾅ津ｼ阳红对窶ｺﾂｳ
32 ﾂ静芝陳ｴ窶妬华
33 窶ｰﾃ≫?愿ｼ东窶督ｿ搅*
34 ﾂ攻击窶吮??ﾂ坂?倪?佚･ﾅｽg馆
35 ﾃｼK窶ｰﾃ､ﾃ｣ﾂ､ﾃ｢窶ｹ
36 窶拮ﾃ｣ﾂ､窶愿?催昶?ｰﾃ､论坛捣窶板
37 ﾋ彖ﾂ坂?倪?愿?窶督ｯ众ﾂ辱华众ﾂ青ｶ窶佛?
38 萨ﾅｽz窶抃窶ｹ^
39 ﾅ｡ﾂｭ窶板ｹﾅｽﾃｩ窶廬窶督ｼﾂ青ｺ
40 联窶敕ｼ军窶ｰ窶ｰﾂ，ﾋ?督催昶?吮??华
41 ﾋ?ｲ许窶披?ｺﾂ，陈窶｢窶ｹ窶愿ｺ
42 ﾂ抓窶｢ﾃ淞，杀ﾅ?Q窶｢ﾃ?#38035;ﾂ人ﾅｽm
43 ﾂ催??佚･窶廬ﾋ?ｪﾂ宗还ﾂ青･窶掏ﾂ坂?｡窶敕ｼ 窶凖ｩ窶拂窶佚､ ﾋ徘窶氾ｱ窶愿ｼﾂ"ﾅｽﾃｼ边窶猫ﾅｽ窶督"ﾃ､窶?#22260;ﾂ，ﾅ津ｶ窶漏ﾅ?ﾂｱ涉窶吮?? ﾂ坂?佛?jﾂ心窶藩懌?ｰv
44 窶卍ｧ衅窶吮?? ﾂ坂?伉渉｣窶｢ﾂｺ
45 ﾂ青ｼﾋ??ﾂ坂?堋校ﾂ辱华窶｢\窶ｰ窶ｰ
46 窶｢Nﾅｽ竄ｬ张纯窶戞
47 ﾂ昶?｡窶伉ｫ窶吮??亚ﾂ，ﾂ搜ﾂ集ﾂ信窶伉ｧ
48 为华ﾂ人败类ﾂ修窶｢ﾃｦ
49 ﾂ催?#21326;窶ｰﾃ?#38376;ﾅ津ｻ击毁渔窶魯
50 窶愿ｺﾅｽﾂｩ 窶督ｯ 窶怡窶｢窶ｺ总ﾂ催卩ｽRﾂ催ｨ窶佚ｱ:ﾅ凪?ｺ窶漏发窶｢\ﾂ"窶愿ｺ窶吮??ﾂ催?#25112;ﾂ"ﾅ陳ｾ论 ,窶拂窶佚､ ﾋ徘窶冰ﾋ慊ｰ窶愿ｺ 窶怒窶廬ﾂ控ﾂ青ｧ窶抃窶ｰﾂｺﾂ。
51 窶亘ﾅｽ~窶ｰﾂ｢窶督ｿ窶ｰﾃｰ窶｢ﾂ絶?ｹﾃ
52 窶｢ﾅｽﾂ辱窶吮?? ﾂ坂??#39046;导ﾂ人 窶督ｾ确ﾂ静ｩﾅｽﾂｦﾋ??窶｢ﾃ崘ｸﾂｼﾃ｡ﾂｳ窶佚､ﾅ?C. translated by google:
1 in the small-headed by the Prime Minister many senior officials to visit the Yasukuni Shrine that China history
2 revised textbooks, deny or play down the crimes of World War II
3 foster Taiwan independence forces, political intervention Taiwan to counter mainland China
4 force Russia, China and Russia to the bankruptcy of large line Five high-profile opposition to the lifting of the EU arms embargo on China
11 permit Dalai's visit to Japan.
12-East Bay Bay, the last year reported by Japanese military officials said that since the Japanese navy with Bay naval networking.
13 refused to provide the information in the remaining chemical weapons
14 attacks on China's Chun Xiao oil and gas fields, and to authorize private enterprises exploitation of disputed oil and gas fields
15 yuan appreciation instigator
16 spread "China threat theory" behind, demonizing China's vanguard.
17 inferior goods sold China, the Chinese contempt
18 for the Three Gorges power station to provide inferior steel
19-domestic traitor
20 strategy to contain China is Japan
21 no compensation for the comfort women
22 Obstruct China joined the Organization of American Bank
23 day in 9.18 wantonly collective visiting prostitutes in Zhuhai, China is further from the present day is to see flocks of Japanese men and women play tricks hand grabbed China With medicine and Chinese medicine for 24.
25 Peking man skull, Woren as burglary war preparedness wreckage, thousands unearthed very unusual
26 abandoned bomb
27 chemical weapons
28 anti-submarine aircraft deal with China
29 will China as a potential enemy China loan to threaten China jump
30 31 helicopters and I fell red Japanese confrontation
32 Ishihara died China *
33 to join the ASEAN water
34 attacks on the Chinese embassy
35 black I website I sent
36 network special forum in trouble
37 Japanese domestic creatures of Chinese people insult
38 channels of suspected
39 bad reputation of Zhu
40 of the U.S. army's intention in China
41 allowed Lee, Chen's
42 arrest, killing protecting people
43 of the largest U.S. West or with the inclusion of Taiwan "peripheral events" scope of flagrant interference in China core interests
44 provocative Chinese sentries
45 colleges and universities insult China Xian performances
46 constantly aggravate Iris Chang
47 participate Central Asia to collect information
48 for the Chinese scum repair tomb Chinese fishing vessels in the door to destroy an
49 50 May Jimindo Vice President Taku Yamazaki : flagrant published "Japan and China enter" remarks to Taiwan under Japanese control.
51 block EU disarmament, demobilization and Test
52 insults Chinese leaders explicitly declared Security covers the Taiwan Strait.
Here is some picture of May 1st 2006 in Tokyo:
They want peace, they want their peace constitution could take effect.
Might be because China refuses to recognise Taiwan as an independent nation and using its power to intimatidate the Island. Which it has been doing since the Nationlists fled there to escape persecution from Maos forces
Not illegal for any country to accept the Dalai to visit. Such a pity he can't visit his own country. After all his own country was annexed illegally by China
Neither was Russia, but Germany didn't makes excuses, deny Auschiwitz, and point the finger at Russia saying "Look at what they've done!" Rather, you own up to what you did, and then you can set a better example.
Mycernius said:
From what I can gather the shrine is also for the normal soldiers that died in WWII and only part of the shrine is deicated to war criminals.
And the Chinese Government don't do this? Pot, Kettle and black come into mind here
Might be because China refuses to recognise Taiwan as an independent nation and using its power to intimatidate the Island. Which it has been doing since the Nationlists fled there to escape persecution from Maos forces
Not illegal for any country to accept the Dalai to visit. Such a pity he can't visit his own country. After all his own country was annexed illegally by China
Something the US and the west have been doing for years, not just Japan , and with good reason. Mao wasn't a paragon of virtue.
Oh, and the Chinese don't do this at all do they. Once more Pot, Kettle, Black
Cultural revolution comes to mind.
To respond to every quote you point at what China did Mycernius, and how it was worse. Well, if you're just trying to raise Japan above China as far as being humane, then you're not setting the bar very high. China is still under the foot of Communism, and will take a while to apologize. Japan has long been rid of the totalitarian government it had during WW2, however, and needs to recognize the wrongs of the FORMER government that rose to power through something called Nationalism.
While "Taiwan" perhaps takes it a bit far (though not extremely) by saying that the Nazis were angels compared to the Japanese, he makes some very valid points also.
The Japanese did kill MILLIONS in Asia, and left behind chemical weapons buried in Asia that have continued to kill and maim (the result of the MANY biological and chemical warfare camps like Unit 731; where the Japanese tried to cover up most of the evidence as they left).
Some Japanese soldiers were also innocent, used by a totalitarian government through the Kempeitai, just as some German soldiers were used by the Nazis.
A sincere apology, basically boils down at this point to acknowledging the crimes in textbooks, and ending the resulting denials that they ever happened. This website however, also takes a more humane look at the Japanese soldiers, than some people who are (understandably; to quote one of the board members "if ur parents, brother, sisters, relatives etc. were the ones, killed do you think do you still hav the heart to forgive especially you saw the killing eyeball to eyeball?") infuriated emotionally because of suffering that they or their families endured.
Having talked with a lot of war veterans who suffer harsh memories of things like the holocaust (doing WWII Living History I meet with a lot of vets), I can say that the past will never be forgotten, but over time a wound can be healed so that we may better face the scars which the past has left us with.
I think western power (including Japan) aggression on the rest of Asian countries were inevitable. Many Asian people as a whole actually benefited from western (include Japan) aggression. Let me elaborate my point.
When people think of war, their immediate reaction is to feel sorry for the victims of war. Yes, we should feel sorry for them. We should feel sorry for them not because they died of meaninglessly death. We feel sorry for them because they were unlucky enough to be the ones to having to sacrifice their lives in the process of human evolution: Human evolution in the form of war.
Human evolution can be interpreted many ways depending on ones value. For my argument here, I define human evolution as the process for human to obtain a better quality of life.
When people ask why did Japan or western powers did those horrible things to Asians, they rarely go deeper than the surface reasons such as: fighting for natural resources, ambitious leaders, political interest...etc. If one dig deeper into what caused such aggressive confrontation between two nations, the reason is very simple. The two countries have evolved differently and one is ahead of another in terms of better quality of life (eg, better technologies, better standard of livingﾂ…etc).
As all matter on Earth do, we all tend to reach the state of equilibrium. The two countries start to interact and bits by bits they would want to assimilate into each other because people naturally want to achieve a better quality of living, thus the term reaching the state of equilibrium. Sadly, the process of reaching equilibrium is sometimes in the form of war. This is also the point where most people will focus on war dead and lost focus of the big picture of what's really going on.
Let me give some examples. HK, Macao, Korea, and Taiwan, what do those places have in common and why are there such a big difference between these regions and the rest of China? Why do Asians in these areas have much higher quality of living than the rest of China? The answer is simple: Direct interaction with a more advanced system. To put it boldly, they have all been colonized. Were there killings and destruction when those regions first interacted with the more advanced nations? Yes there were plenty. However, that's the sort of fluctuations one expects to happen when two different systems start to interact. In the long run, the system will reach equilibrium (equal standard of living) and fluctuations will cease to exist.
Is war inevitable? I don't think so. As human beings, we have yet to evolve to the point where human evolution can be done completely without war. Acknowledging past actions will be one step in the process of moving human race up another level. I don't agree with those who think apologizing will do good to the victims. Victims will have nothing to gain from aggressors' apology other than their mere self-satisfaction to make themselves feel better. Acknowledging past actions will only be beneficial to the aggressors for that they have reached a new level of human social value while victims are lagging behind with hate and remorse.
A word of advice to the victimized nations: Move on with your life. We live in a fast changing world and no one's gonna stop to pity your pathetic past. It's a competitive world out there. Upgrade yourself is the only way to survive according Darwin's law of natural selection.
Thats the same argument i take with animal terrorists, its a bit rich preaching lovey fluffy love with all animals when the very nature of nature is life and death.
Though you make an interesting point, i agree, war is a way for human civilization to evolve, thats not the real point, the real point is if asia was in a mind to forgive, Japan could apologise, they dont because they know the whole WW2 issue in asia is just the horrible disfigured face of sincerity and actual victimhood ripped from the body of the issue and sewn over the disgusting putrid face of political positioning.
Anyone not in asia and immediately involved with the issue, can see plainly from this vantage point that the screaming and clawing for Japans remorse and guilt and apologies isnt because they feel slighted....most people alive in WW2 are dead, with no immediate relatives, so theres no excuse for the level of contempt and hatred shown by some, the issue has simply been hijacked by the politicians and leaders as a way to get one political leg over Japan, want to get elected or popular support?....stir anti-japanese racist sentiments and bingo, you got a crowd of racist hateful people to support your bid for power/current leadership.
Basically Asia has got problems....Japan....China, they may have advanced economies, south korea might be a gamers paradise, Japan might spew out high technology, and China might be an industrial power-house, but the society hasnt grown up with the technology, Asia is still too highly nationalistic, too self-centred, too caught up in themselves, still living in a past of hating each other.
If my time in Japan is anything, most japanese just wanna live their lives in peace, and i assume the same for most other Asians, sadly a minority of hateful howlers and crooked politicians means asia cant get along as well as it could.
the real point is if asia was in a mind to forgive, Japan could apologise, they dont because they know the whole WW2 issue in asia is just the horrible disfigured face of sincerity and actual victimhood ripped from the body of the issue and sewn over the disgusting putrid face of political positioning.
Anyone not in asia and immediately involved with the issue, can see plainly from this vantage point that the screaming and clawing for Japans remorse and guilt and apologies isnt because they feel slighted....most people alive in WW2 are dead, with no immediate relatives, so theres no excuse for the level of contempt and hatred shown by some, the issue has simply been hijacked by the politicians and leaders as a way to get one political leg over Japan, want to get elected or popular support?....stir anti-japanese racist sentiments and bingo, you got a crowd of racist hateful people to support your bid for power/current leadership.
Basically Asia has got problems....Japan....China, they may have advanced economies, south korea might be a gamers paradise, Japan might spew out high technology, and China might be an industrial power-house, but the society hasnt grown up with the technology, Asia is still too highly nationalistic, too self-centred, too caught up in themselves, still living in a past of hating each other.
If my time in Japan is anything, most japanese just wanna live their lives in peace, and i assume the same for most other Asians, sadly a minority of hateful howlers and crooked politicians means asia cant get along as well as it could.
google traslate it :
have been repeatedly proven history, and both will be re-prove incontrovertible truth. China's future task is complete surpassed Japan to achieve integration in East Asia for Japan to become part of the system rather than divorced from the system, thereby lifting the Japanese system of a long-term threat to the national.
You can read it by google.I will translate it when I have time . http://www.qianzhe.com/Article/junshi/zhanzheng/200602/1512.html
This is an good article, It is pity that I can't find English version of it ,but I believe you can read it by google translation.
Thats the same argument i take with animal terrorists, its a bit rich preaching lovey fluffy love with all animals when the very nature of nature is life and death.
Though you make an interesting point, i agree, war is a way for human civilization to evolve, thats not the real point, the real point is if asia was in a mind to forgive, Japan could apologise, they dont because they know the whole WW2 issue in asia is just the horrible disfigured face of sincerity and actual victimhood ripped from the body of the issue and sewn over the disgusting putrid face of political positioning.
Anyone not in asia and immediately involved with the issue, can see plainly from this vantage point that the screaming and clawing for Japans remorse and guilt and apologies isnt because they feel slighted....most people alive in WW2 are dead, with no immediate relatives, so theres no excuse for the level of contempt and hatred shown by some, the issue has simply been hijacked by the politicians and leaders as a way to get one political leg over Japan, want to get elected or popular support?....stir anti-japanese racist sentiments and bingo, you got a crowd of racist hateful people to support your bid for power/current leadership.
Basically Asia has got problems....Japan....China, they may have advanced economies, south korea might be a gamers paradise, Japan might spew out high technology, and China might be an industrial power-house, but the society hasnt grown up with the technology, Asia is still too highly nationalistic, too self-centred, too caught up in themselves, still living in a past of hating each other.
If my time in Japan is anything, most japanese just wanna live their lives in peace, and i assume the same for most other Asians, sadly a minority of hateful howlers and crooked politicians means asia cant get along as well as it could.
Point still remains, that a sincere apology means teaching in the history books where one's country did wrong, so that indeed Japan (as well as other countries, such as my own namely) can evolve past the nationalism that got it into the mess in the first place (the nationalist sentiment that allowed the militarists to come into power)
I think western power (including Japan) aggression on the rest of Asian countries were inevitable. Many Asian people as a whole actually benefited from western (include Japan) aggression. Let me elaborate my point..When people think of war, their immediate reaction is to feel sorry for the victims of war. Yes, we should feel sorry for them. We should feel sorry for them not because they died of meaninglessly death. We feel sorry for them because they were unlucky enough to be the ones to having to sacrifice their lives in the process of human evolution: Human evolution in the form of war.
Human evolution can be interpreted many ways depending on ones value. For my argument here, I define human evolution as the process for human to obtain a better quality of life.
When people ask why did Japan or western powers did those horrible things to Asians, they rarely go deeper than the surface reasons such as: fighting for natural resources, ambitious leaders, political interest...etc. If one dig deeper into what caused such aggressive confrontation between two nations, the reason is very simple. The two countries have evolved differently and one is ahead of another in terms of better quality of life (eg, better technologies, better standard of livingﾂ…etc).
As all matter on Earth do, we all tend to reach the state of equilibrium. The two countries start to interact and bits by bits they would want to assimilate into each other because people naturally want to achieve a better quality of living, thus the term reaching the state of equilibrium. Sadly, the process of reaching equilibrium is sometimes in the form of war. This is also the point where most people will focus on war dead and lost focus of the big picture of what's really going on.
Your logic is so twisted. Somehow you find a way to beautify and justify Japanese atrocities and agrression. That's exactly the reason Asian people still hate Japan because there are Japanese think the way you think. (not just a small minorities) According to your logic, you should agree that atomic bombs dropped on hiroshima and nakasaki were THINGS OF BEAUTYsince those two bombs make Japan evolved in a more peaceful way and got rid of unfit human as well. Agree? The Social Darwinism was one major reasons that drove Nazi and Japan did so many disgusting atrocities in WWII. I do not think you have learned the lesson.
Let me give some examples. HK, Macao, Korea, and Taiwan, what do those places have in common and why are there such a big difference between these regions and the rest of China? Why do Asians in these areas have much higher quality of living than the rest of China? The answer is simple: Direct interaction with a more advanced system. To put it boldly, they have all been colonized. Were there killings and destruction when those regions first interacted with the more advanced nations? Yes there were plenty. However, that's the sort of fluctuations one expects to happen when two different systems start to interact. In the long run, the system will reach equilibrium (equal standard of living) and fluctuations will cease to exist.
Is war inevitable? I don't think so. As human beings, we have yet to evolve to the point where human evolution can be done completely without war. Acknowledging past actions will be one step in the process of moving human race up another level. I don't agree with those who think apologizing will do good to the victims. Victims will have nothing to gain from aggressors' apology other than their mere self-satisfaction to make themselves feel better. Acknowledging past actions will only be beneficial to the aggressors for that they have reached a new level of human social value while victims are lagging behind with hate and remorse. A word of advice to the victimized nations: Move on with your life. We live in a fast changing world and no one's gonna stop to pity your pathetic past. It's a competitive world out there. Upgrade yourself is the only way to survive according Darwin's law of natural selection.
As for HK, Macao, Korea, and Taiwan being more advance, you have to remember that there was a cold war and China was being contained. As for now, Chinese economy has been liberated and they are moving up very fast. I have been to Tokyo and Shanghai before. In terms of landscape and skyline, I can tell you that Tokyo has already fallen behind Shanghai. I am from Taiwan myself. Trust me your argument won't fly even in Taiwan. ( the only Asian nation has quite a few people who are friendly to Japan.) Hey, maybe Darwinism is not going to work in Japan's favor in the next 50 years since China is regaining its old status - being the leader of Asia. Do you suggest that it's right thing for China to eradict Japanese race once and for all? since it fits Darwin's law too. Agree?
Your logic is so twisted. Somehow you find a way to beautify and justify Japanese atrocities and agrression. That's exactly the reason Asian people still hate Japan because there are Japanese think the way you think. (not just a small minorities) According to your logic, you should agree that atomic bombs dropped on hiroshima and nakasaki were THINGS OF BEAUTYsince those two bombs make Japan evolved in a more peaceful way and got rid of unfit human as well. Agree? The Social Darwinism was one major reasons that drove Nazi and Japan did so many disgusting atrocities in WWII. I do not think you have learned the lesson.
Yes I do agree atomic bombs were necessary to elevate Japan's social value in terms of realizing their role as the aggressor in the war. Social Darwinism has been occuring since the beginning of human age. It takes place in many forms and Japanese/German aggression during WWII were examples of accelerated Social Darwinism. An accelerated cultural clash is made possible when two nations or culture have a big gap in their standard of living or people quality. During an accelerated cultural clash, confrontations that usually will take a long time to occur are packed into an extremely short time frame that usually results in large scale human atrocities.
There's nothing to shun away from when it comes to discussing how we as human have evolved because they are simply historic events that have occured. Believe it or not, the fact that me and you are using English in our discussion is an example of Social Darwinism.
taiwan said:
As for HK, Macao, Korea, and Taiwan being more advance, you have to remember that there was a cold war and China was being contained. As for now, Chinese economy has been liberated and they are moving up very fast. I have been to Tokyo and Shanghai before. In terms of landscape and skyline, I can tell you that Tokyo has already fallen behind Shanghai. I am from Taiwan myself. Trust me your argument won't fly even in Taiwan. ( the only Asian nation has quite a few people who are friendly to Japan.) Hey, maybe Darwinism is not going to work in Japan's favor in the next 50 years since China is regaining its old status - being the leader of Asia. Do you suggest that it's right thing for China to eradict Japanese race once and for all? since it fits Darwin's law too. Agree?
So is the number of highrise buildings in a country the only measurement you take for assessing a nation's well being? That is an extremely superficial way of judging a nation's well being. Go to the countrysides of China and see the real China. Ask those 100million Chinese farmers who are getting by with $1/day wage what do those fancy highrise in Shanghai mean to them.
To me, what makes a country great is it's people quality. I don't want to have to worry about getting robbed when I walk alone during the night. I don't want to have to worry about buying meat that were manufactured from underground meat processing plant. I don't want to live in an environemnt where everyone's mind is filled with money-making scam and trying to rip you off.
If you really want to compare China to Japan, I have to say China is lagging Japan in terms of people quality for at least a century. China has always portrayed itself as the victim and victim simply won't evolve.
I agree with you. There's no direct relationship between explaining historic events and the afterwards recognizing of the victims and the subsequent actions taking place with regard to the victims. They are in in fact, two sepearte topics and subjects.
You pointed out a very good point. Social values growth have not catched up with the economical and technological growths in most Asian countries. This is largely due to the fact that many Asians(especially Chinese) somehow refuse to adopt modern western thinking such as a modern justice system and democracy. As to why do Asian people are reluctant to adopt key modern ideologies which has proven crucial and essential to the successful building of a modern society? The answer is complicated. Japan is the most modern country in Asia and it is by no means a perfectly functioning country. A good example is Japan's dealing with other Asian nations with regard to WWII issues.
Yes I do agree atomic bombs were necessary to elevate Japan's social value in terms of realizing their role as the aggressor in the war. Social Darwinism has been occuring since the beginning of human age. It takes place in many forms and Japanese/German aggression during WWII were examples of accelerated Social Darwinism. An accelerated cultural clash is made possible when two nations or culture have a big gap in their standard of living or people quality. During an accelerated cultural clash, confrontations that usually will take a long time to occur are packed into an extremely short time frame that usually results in large scale human atrocities.
There's nothing to shun away from when it comes to discussing how we as human have evolved because they are simply historic events that have occured. Believe it or not, the fact that me and you are using English in our discussion is an example of Social Darwinism
So is the number of highrise buildings in a country the only measurement you take for assessing a nation's well being? That is an extremely superficial way of judging a nation's well being. Go to the countrysides of China and see the real China. Ask those 100million Chinese farmers who are getting by with $1/day wage what do those fancy highrise in Shanghai mean to them.
To me, what makes a country great is it's people quality. I don't want to have to worry about getting robbed when I walk alone during the night. I don't want to have to worry about buying meat that were manufactured from underground meat processing plant. I don't want to live in an environemnt where everyone's mind is filled with money-making scam and trying to rip you off.
If you really want to compare China to Japan, I have to say China is lagging Japan in terms of people quality for at least a century. China has always portrayed itself as the victim and victim simply won't evolve.
I agree with you. There's no direct relationship between explaining historic events and the afterwards recognizing of the victims and the subsequent actions taking place with regard to the victims. They are in in fact, two sepearte topics and subjects.
You pointed out a very good point. Social values growth have not catched up with the economical and technological growths in most Asian countries. This is largely due to the fact that many Asians(especially Chinese) somehow refuse to adopt modern western thinking such as a modern justice system and democracy. As to why do Asian people are reluctant to adopt key modern ideologies which has proven crucial and essential to the successful building of a modern society? The answer is complicated. Japan is the most modern country in Asia and it is by no means a perfectly functioning country. A good example is Japan's dealing with other Asian nations with regard to WWII issues.
No matter how worse the Japan did in the past~ we can forgive it .In fact ,we already forgive it ~China abnegate the reparations that Japan should pay after the war! Chinese people is virtuous,they didn't want to see the Japanese People suffer more pain after the war,and Japan and China establish diplomatic relations in 1970's.
Give a example:
A prisoner did many bad things,however ,it being punished and sent to the prison.Then we shall forgive him.
But ,the prisoner think what he has done is right~ and prepare to do it again.
In this case ,do you still feel good ?
people quality ?
adopt key modern ideologies?
refuse to adopt modern western thinking such as a modern justice system and democracy?
This has been talked in China year after year for decades.
oversimplification
In the 1990's ,I thought things like you : Chinese people quality \modern western \justice system and democracy,but when I grow up ,I realize it is oversimplification.That China is so big and this problem is not so oversimplification to say.
Wow~ Haven't you read my post??
No matter how worse the Japan did in the past~ we can forgive it .In fact ,we already forgive it ~China abnegate the reparations that Japan should pay after the war! Chinese people is virtuous,they didn't want to see the Japanese People suffer more pain after the war,and Japan and China establish diplomatic relations in 1970's.
Putting all poiitical motives aside, I think that is a important big step China took in establishing itself as a modern country. I do think it's something need to be encouraged more in China.
4321go said:
Give a example:
A prisoner did many bad things,however ,it being punished and sent to the prison.Then we shall forgive him.
But ,the prisoner think what he has done is right~ and prepare to do it again.
In this case ,do you still feel good ?
Look at what Japan doing now.....
https://jref.com/forum/showpost.php... Lead by example, make history, be yourself.
OK, you use your own definition of evolution, but how valid is this definition? What supports your stance?
If one dig deeper into what caused such aggressive confrontation between two nations, the reason is very simple. The two countries have evolved differently and one is ahead of another in terms of better quality of life (eg, better technologies, better standard of livingﾂ…etc).
That's not simple, that's oversimplified. You have wars which are started by a technologically advanced society, by a technologically inferior society or by an equal society.
HK, Macao, Korea, and Taiwan, what do those places have in common and why are there such a big difference between these regions and the rest of China? Why do Asians in these areas have much higher quality of living than the rest of China? The answer is simple: Direct interaction with a more advanced system.
There is virtually no human evolution left. I can't see how human beings should undergo any remarkable evolutionary change. Mutations still occur, but without selective pressure that doesn't mean much.
Upgrade yourself is the only way to survive according Darwin's law of natural selection.
Yes I do agree atomic bombs were necessary to elevate Japan's social value in terms of realizing their role as the aggressor in the war. Social Darwinism has been occuring since the beginning of human age. It takes place in many forms and Japanese/German aggression during WWII were examples of accelerated Social Darwinism. An accelerated cultural clash is made possible when two nations or culture have a big gap in their standard of living or people quality. During an accelerated cultural clash, confrontations that usually will take a long time to occur are packed into an extremely short time frame that usually results in large scale human atrocities. There's nothing to shun away from when it comes to discussing how we as human have evolved because they are simply historic events that have occured. Believe it or not, the fact that me and you are using English in our discussion is an example of Social Darwinism..
Somehow you believe the success of HK, Macao, Korea, and Taiwan are due to colonization. Maybe Japan should subject to conolization by USA, since USA is more advanced and can help Japan evolve. No? And why Japanese have all the rages against US GIs raping of Japanese girls? According your logic it's part of human evolution. The USA is a more advanced country which semi-occupies Japan and help Japan evlove.
So is the number of highrise buildings in a country the only measurement you take for assessing a nation's well being? That is an extremely superficial way of judging a nation's well being. Go to the countrysides of China and see the real China. Ask those 100million Chinese farmers who are getting by with $1/day wage what do those fancy highrise in Shanghai mean to them.
To me, what makes a country great is it's people quality. I don't want to have to worry about getting robbed when I walk alone during the night. I don't want to have to worry about buying meat that were manufactured from underground meat processing plant. I don't want to live in an environemnt where everyone's mind is filled with money-making scam and trying to rip you off. If you really want to compare China to Japan, I have to say China is lagging Japan in terms of people quality for at least a century. China has always portrayed itself as the victim and victim simply won't evolve.
No one is saying those high rises measure the well being of all Chinese citizens. But it's a good indication that China is evolving quickly in the past 15yrs or so. As for poor people, Japan has plenty unless you choose not to see it. Look at those homeless poeple wondering around Tokyo's parks. And ordinary Japanese quality of life are not that great either. Your wealth only shows up on paper not reality. Most of Japanese only feel wealthy when they travel aboard.
As for people's quality, you can get all kinds of weirdos trying to rob you in USA, greedy people trying to rip you off in NYC, and American beef with mad cow diease. According to your logic, USA does not have quality people then? Not to mention, it's not like Japanese are all angles either. How else you got tons of buildings which can not stand earthquakes, yet got safty certifications from the govt? How else your politicians always deal with your giants corporations in corrupted ways and result in scandles after scandles? You call that people with good quality?
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