Why do you exist ?

[Mycernius]

then if you can proof the opposite I will be grateful

Not for me to do. You are the one making the claim that a god, and a specific god exists. In order to make the claim you must provide evidence. Seeing to claim an existance of a specific god is extraordinary claim, then extraordinary evidence is required to back up such a claim. So far all evidence shows there is no god, any god.

how the hell someone who dont know about Islam and dont study the Quran can stated how Mohammed started his preaching to Islam.

Jesus is mentioned more times in the qu'ran than Mohammad. There are also comtemporary accounts of Mohammad other than qu'ranic sources.

listen my friends, the only source of Islam is the only book that we are reading now which did not change from 1400 years,

What about the Hadiths and Sharia law? They are additions on how to follow Islam. Surely islam should be just the qu'ran?
Also it hasn't changed in 1400 years is incorrect. The one qu'ran that you and I both have wasn't fully standardised until the third Caliph

even the language that it revealed in did not change so far, it is not like the other holy books where the followers use only the translation.

Again, incorrect. Arabic wasn't standardised until around the 8th century. When the third caliph had the authorised one done he ordered all others to be destroyed, showing that differing versions existed. Who knows if he kept the correct one?

The author, a philologist writing under the pseudonym Christoph Luxenberg, has proposed that the Koran as we know it today is a misreading.
Luxenberg asserts that Koranic Arabic is not Arabic at all, at least not in the sense assumed by the classical commentators. It is written, rather, in the dialect of the Prophet's tribe, the Meccan Quraysh, and heavily influenced by Aramaic.

Full article

dont you hear of anti-islamic sites like anti-Christianity, or Judaism sites, there are a lot around by the way, how can I tell, simply because they are saying what is not stated in Quran, and sometimes they dare to change some verses from Quran

I know. Trying to find objective sources on any religion is a royal pain in the butt. Most are either rabidly anti_muslim, run by the christian right, or very pro-mulsim, run by the the Muslims equivalents

if you want to know or read from the correct source, then go and read the main source which is the Quran

Reading it. And it hasn't really inspired me to go any worship your god, any more than the bible did, or the Tao chi ching did for Taoism.

how they are treated....actually there is freedom here in terms of religions, aside from Atheist, there are churches for christians here,
there are two atheists people I know here, one is a professor in the university I study in, the other one is a malay woman reside in one of my father properties. So I dont think they are treated badly especially here, since one of them is dealing with my family directly and she is so good woman.
another thing is that Dubai now is attracting people from everywhere, so especially there, there is no restrictions in religions as long as they are practicing their thoughts in peace

Thank you. Sounds a little more free than your rather serious neighbour, Saudi Arabia.

OMG ..........
Do I look like an arrogant to u guys and not listen to others??
I am very sorry if you misunderstood me and if you thought that I am not respecting the others replies
the discussion between me and Mycernius was not a sight for a disagreement, its just that everyone want to show why s/he hold his/her opinion tightly nothing else believe me.......I am interested in his thought and why he dont think that there is a god exist, I am really interest in the logic behind his faith.......I hope he is agree with me as well

Debate is how we learn from each other. Dispite having conflicting views, you haven't preached, condemned me to hell and been rude. Which is more than I can say for some theists I have spoken to, online and in real life, in the past.

okay I admit that sometimes I have a bad temper, but this is really not that I dont respect the other thoughts *I swear* or why the hell I will ask you from the beginning. its really because I do care about the others and I am studying the other thoughts and wanna learn more in my comparative religions self study

Read up on ancient myths. They will help you gain a greater insight into modern religions. I would also advise looking through ancient history. It helps when comparing religious history to actual history. And remember to try and view anything from non-biased sources. This is very difficult when trying to do comparitive religions

anyways if you guys dont like the discussion we can close the thread to not lose the friendship among us..........I will respect your decision though

So far this thread is doing well.

 

[Hime]

Not for me to do. You are the one making the claim that a god, and a specific god exists. In order to make the claim you must provide evidence. Seeing to claim an existance of a specific god is extraordinary claim, then extraordinary evidence is required to back up such a claim. So far all evidence shows there is no god, any god.

I provided you the evidence that I truly trust, and its up to you to accept or not, I wanted to read yours

Jesus is mentioned more times in the qu'ran than Mohammad. There are also comtemporary accounts of Mohammad other than qu'ranic sources.
What about the Hadiths and Sharia law? They are additions on how to follow Islam. Surely islam should be just the qu'ran?

yeah Jesus was mentioned even more than mohammed in terms of mentioning names, and thats a strong evidence for our christian brethren than we do care about Christianity. but he was mentioned more when he was refered as " the prophet "
the Quran is the first source of Knowledge, then the hadith and the Sirah (what the prophet did and said) is the second one in terms of explaining more in details what the Quran said.
After that we come to the Sharia that came after Mohammed passed away since he was the second source of Knowledge and there must be a reliable soruce of knowledge to state the small details
the Sharia scholars are extracting their knowledge from the Quran and the Sirah or Sunnah or hadith.

Also it hasn't changed in 1400 years is incorrect. The one qu'ran that you and I both have wasn't fully standardised until the third Caliph

People back then memorized Quran by heart and pass it from a generation to another, also, they were writing it in the leather and bond plate of the animal. so even it was simple but there were ways to write it and preserve it until it officially written in books in the first caliph Abu Baker Al Sediqe because he scared of the large number of those people who memorized it had passed away and that might affect the accuracy of the Quran since there was no clear means to preserve it back then.

After seventy reciters were killed in the Battle of Yamama, the caliph Abu Bakr decided to collect the different chapters and verses into one volume. Thus, a group of reciters, including Zayd ibn Thabit, collected the chapters and verses and produced several hand-written copies of the complete book
source: wikipedia/Quran

Again, incorrect. Arabic wasn't standardised until around the 8th century. When the third caliph had the authorised one done he ordered all others to be destroyed, showing that differing versions existed. Who knows if he kept the correct one?

sorry I did not get what you mean exactly here, do you mean that people back then were not speaking arabic?
and I did not have the time to read that long article......Later I will

I know. Trying to find objective sources on any religion is a royal pain in the butt. Most are either rabidly anti_muslim, run by the christian right, or very pro-mulsim, run by the the Muslims equivalents

You are right, and especially in this time of hating Islam and muslims by many people who dont know the truth behind Islam, its gonna be completely hard to find reliable source.

Reading it. And it hasn't really inspired me to go any worship your god, any more than the bible did, or the Tao chi ching did for Taoism.

good try, but can I ask you which part you read, if you still remember, and what you liked and disliked on it? if you have the time to go back as well

Thank you. Sounds a little more free than your rather serious neighbour, Saudi Arabia.

I think the nature of the business in the UAE play a main role on attracting people from different thoughts and ethnicity.

Debate is how we learn from each other. Dispite having conflicting views, you haven't preached, condemned me to hell and been rude. Which is more than I can say for some theists I have spoken to, online and in real life, in the past.
Read up on ancient myths. They will help you gain a greater insight into modern religions. I would also advise looking through ancient history. It helps when comparing religious history to actual history. And remember to try and view anything from non-biased sources. This is very difficult when trying to do comparitive religions

thanks for the advice

So far this thread is doing well.

I hope so

 

[Ma Cherie]

Hi guys, this is my first thread in the forum..... (except the introduction one)
Have any of you think why s/he exist in this life?
waiting your responses............

You've indicted that you're Muslim, and you believe we are created by God. But my question would be, why?

What is the point of creating humanity? It seems the God in Islam is viewed as being all powerful and all knowing, but if we were created to only worship and serve God, why would a powerful God need people to serve and worship him?
You've also indicated that the universe is complex and their must be a complex creator, why does there have to be a creator just because the universe is complex?

Do you think mankind has a purpose?
What if there is no purpose in the universe?

And just so you'll know, arguing with atheists/agnostics with the Qu'ran or any holy book for that matter is not evidence.

 

[Hime]

You've indicted that you're Muslim, and you believe we are created by God. But my question would be, why?
What is the point of creating humanity? It seems the God in Islam is viewed as being all powerful and all knowing, but if we were created to only worship and serve God, why would a powerful God need people to serve and worship him?

regardless of being muslim or not, its all about if there is god or not

You've also indicated that the universe is complex and their must be a complex creator, why does there have to be a creator just because the universe is complex?

I wonder why do people when they are in real danger like in the middle of a storm where there is no chance to be saved and even if they are not believers, they said: "Oh My god! save me"
they said it unconsciously, do you think that it is the human instinct? or something else?

Do you think mankind has a purpose?

Yeah

What if there is no purpose in the universe?

if I think that there is a purpose, why I will bother myself thinking there is not

And just so you'll know, arguing with atheists/agnostics with the Qu'ran or any holy book for that matter is not evidence.

a point of view I respect

Why do I exist?
Philosophical reason:
Why not?
Biological reason:
Well, Dad thought Mom was hot, so one night they...
Financial reason:
To keep my wife in nice clothes and a good home, and to keep my kid in kindergarten (so far, that is).
Spiritual reason:
If you believe...
Actuarial reason:
I have not yet reached the average age at which most males from my country die.
Academic reason:
Because the students love me.

we got another noble purpose here......another noble job appeared,
Uncle Frank is a doctor I guess, and you are a teacher......I respect people like you guys

 

[Red5]

hey i'm with Mycernius
that there is no God and every thing exist alone ..... coz i'll tell you why ??

( i was in park and there is no chairs in it .. and i wished to be one ....
immediately .. the trees cut itself and compare togather and make to me chair ,
all that happen alone ,, ) this is my story and he didn't believe as he wants ...

by the way i want from Mycernius tell me his opinion about that ....XD

 

[Ma Cherie]

regardless of being muslim or not, its all about if there is god or not

So why does God have to exist in order for mankind to believe it has a purpose?

I wonder why do people when they are in real danger like in the middle of a storm where there is no chance to be saved and even if they are not believers, they said: "Oh My god! save me"
they said it unconsciously, do you think that it is the human instinct? or something else?

I would assume people who believe in God would do this. An atheist or an agnostic wouldn't do that, because what's the point of calling out for help to a being you don't believe exist? And it doesn't indicate that God exists just because humans do that.

if I think that there is a purpose, why I will bother myself thinking there is not

I asked because there's a possibility that there is no purpose of our existence . I think that's why people hold onto to their religious beliefs, because believing in it gives us a sense of purpose, yet it doesn't make it true.

a point of view I respect

I was just letting you know. It wasn't to disrespect your beliefs or anything like that. I just noticed a lot of religious are very quick to quote scriptures. And say "that's evidence" and it doesn't work with atheist/agnostics.

 

[Hime]

So why does God have to exist in order for mankind to believe it has a purpose?
I would assume people who believe in God would do this. An atheist or an agnostic wouldn't do that, because what's the point of calling out for help to a being you don't believe exist? And it doesn't indicate that God exists just because humans do that.
I asked because there's a possibility that there is no purpose of our existence . I think that's why people hold onto to their religious beliefs, because believing in it gives us a sense of purpose, yet it doesn't make it true.
I was just letting you know. It wasn't to disrespect your beliefs or anything like that. I just noticed a lot of religious are very quick to quote scriptures. And say "that's evidence" and it doesn't work with atheist/agnostics.

for theists, the scriptures are always one of their reliable sources of knowledge, I guess you are atheist, thats why you dont like scriptures if I am not mistaken
I read about many disbelievers who dont think about God existence and how they faced the danger with just: Oh my God!.............regardless of what they believed before that moment, its just the instinct speaking at that moment.
anyways, I cant imagine that this universe is work by its own, there must be a hand hold the control of it, and that is my logic if you dont like the scriptures

 

[Ma Cherie]

for theists, the scriptures are always one of their reliable sources of knowledge, I guess you are atheist, thats why you dont like scriptures if I am not mistaken
I read about many disbelievers who dont think about God existence and how they faced the danger with just: Oh my God!.............regardless of what they believed before that moment, its just the instinct speaking at that moment.
anyways, I cant imagine that this universe is work by its own, there must be a hand hold the control of it, and that is my logic if you dont like the scriptures

No I'm not an atheist nor agnostic. I'm a deist, I believe in God but I don't believe in God through scriptures or holy texts, and organized religion. So yes, I have issues with scriptures because there's not clear definition of what makes them divinely inspired nor is there really any actual evidence.

But my question is, why is it difficult to fathom that there is a possibility that the universe can't exist on its own?

 

[Mycernius]

I provided you the evidence that I truly trust, and its up to you to accept or not, I wanted to read yours

I find one of the best peices of evidence for the non-existance of allah is the qu'ran. You'll find a great many ex.mulims/christians, atheists or deists reject scripture because of its inconsistencies and its dubious morals.
For example: Who was the first Muslim? Mohammad, Jesus, Abraham, Moses?
Case for Mohammad Sura 6:14, 6:161-163
Case for Jesus Sura 3:52. 5:110-111
Case for Abraham Sura 3:67
Case for Adam Sura 2:30, 34-35, 37
Can Mohammad see allah: Yes - 53:1-18, 81:15-29; No - 6:102-103, 42:51
I could list more, but you are better googling Inconsistences in the qu'ran/koran. Again be careful of some of the sites as some are Jewish or christian in origin and try to promote their scripture as true, but all others after as inferior.

There is also evidence within science that contradicts scripture. The universe is much older than scripture says so or hints at. Universe is just under 14 billion years old. We can see back 13.7 billion years. YECs (young earth creationists) will insist that it is only 6000 years old, and that includes some Muslims (See here on fast or slow creation within the qu'ran)
Evolution contradicts how we got here. From primitive early life all the way to modern humans. Evolution is fact, scripture provide no evidence whatsoever, except godunit.
Abiogenesis is the theory on how life began. GMC (Giant molecular clouds) are where stars are born (observable) showing how our early solar system started. Proto-planetary systems have been observed, Beta Pictoris being the most well known. Extra solar planets have been detected, meaning the solar system and its planets are not unique in the universe.
Everything points away from scripture. The best platform to argue whether a god exists or not is Ma Cheries view and to be a deist, because scripture makes proving a specific god existance is very difficult. The reason is because exactly the same argument can be made by any religion. Christians say the bible is right, Jews the Talmud and Torah, Muslims the Qu'ran, Hindus the Vedas, etc. The arguments to show yours is right and all others are wrong is the same arguments that they use.

People back then memorized Quran by heart and pass it from a generation to another, also, they were writing it in the leather and bond plate of the animal. so even it was simple but there were ways to write it and preserve it until it officially written in books in the first caliph Abu Baker Al Sediqe because he scared of the large number of those people who memorized it had passed away and that might affect the accuracy of the Quran since there was no clear means to preserve it back then.

Hmm, to rely on peoples memories. Ten people witness and accident or hear a recitation and you'll get ten different versions. In the UK it is refered to as Chinese Whispers

sorry I did not get what you mean exactly here, do you mean that people back then were not speaking arabic?

The article makes a case that the arabic that was used is different from what you know and speak. Dialects differed from tribe to tribe. Meaning for one thing could mean something different to your neighbour. Even those that could read and write spelling differed. The language wasn't standardised until several hundred years after the events.

good try, but can I ask you which part you read, if you still remember, and what you liked and disliked on it?

I am reading it. I have read throught the shorter suras, but I start at the beginning and carry on. It isn't a particularly easy book to read, but neither is the bible.

I am not trying to deconvert you, but to try and look at your faith with a more critical eye. If you are doing comparitive religions then you will look at other beliefs with a critical eye, then you should do it with your own. It is hard to do so, especially if your faith means a lot to you, but being critical of it doesn't mean you have to give it up. There are Muslim scholars quiet critical of their faith, but still follow allah.

@ Katsumoto. What are you trying to say? You want my opinion on what?

 

[Hime]

it looks like you did a really good search Mycernius and I am happy that you are trying to find the truth and argue about it.....
I am not sure if you will accept this but I will be a way for the next three days *having an ERP midterm at Tuesday*
so can I delay the respond until that time? because it will take a time to go through all of your reply and manage to study at the same time
I am telling you this to not let you wait too long for a reply my friend
the same goes for Ma Cherie........if you dont mind guys

 

[Red5]

Not for me to do. You are the one making the claim that a god, and a specific god exists. In order to make the claim you must provide evidence. Seeing to claim an existance of a specific god is extraordinary claim, then extraordinary evidence is required to back up such a claim. So far all evidence shows there is no god, any god.

so if there is no God who is creat the earth and every thing in this world .
you believe in principle ( cause and result ) that mean no thing in world happen without reason , how the rain is pouring , that because the son vaporize the sea's water to become like smoke then to be cloud to pour the rain ,, (you know that ) until the student flunk in exam that because he didn't study well . so what is the reason that make the result of it ,,
exist this world or even human ...
Mycernius : you always want to prove to you , but you didn't prove us exactly ??

What about the Hadiths and Sharia law? They are additions on how to follow Islam. Surely islam should be just the qu'ran?
Also it hasn't changed in 1400 years is incorrect. The one qu'ran that you and I both have wasn't fully standardised until the third Caliph

you are right that Qur'an not standardised until third Caliph
(Othman ibn Affan) ... and you said before that some persons who study Qur'an by heart and move from person to person and that may change ...

first : the Qur'an not only there are persons who study Qur'an by heart but also it was many manuscripts (in that time they can write in old Arabic as you know the Prophet sent message to king of Rome ) ....

so the third Caliph Othman HE ONLY combine all manuscripts in one book
(Qur'an ) ...
and you can check that ... you can take Qur'an from every islamic countries and compare them , you won't see any difference between them.
but if you take other holy books like ( Tawrat , Ingeel ) you'll see that every country has own holy book , that mean that that book was changed ..

 

[Eugeniu]

I don't understand why people keep on believing the theory of the Big Band and Evolution. I'm serious. The whole theory is that nothing created something. How can nothing do that? Never once has there been an example where nothing has created something. Everything came from something. A piece of paper comes from a tree, a tree comes form another tree, and that tree comes from another tree. A cord comes from metals underground and plastics made from who knows what. Every single thing on this earth comes from another thing, and that's something that can't be disproven.

So if even a molecule can't create itself, then how can an entire spectrum of existence just appear? How is it that time creates itself, space creates itself, an atom creates itself, and that same atom inflates itself into a fully functioning universe? Yes, there is evidence of what happens in the Big Bang between the start of it and now, but it is still physically impossible for it to even start. The way I see it, science and scientists avoid the beginning because they realize it's impossible. So they make it sketchy. Acting like there is a solution but we don't know it yet. And it's working too.

 

[Half-n-Half]

I don't understand why people keep on believing the theory of the Big Band and Evolution. I'm serious. The whole theory is that nothing created something. How can nothing do that? Never once has there been an example where nothing has created something. Everything came from something. A piece of paper comes from a tree, a tree comes form another tree, and that tree comes from another tree. A cord comes from metals underground and plastics made from who knows what. Every single thing on this earth comes from another thing, and that's something that can't be disproven.
So if even a molecule can't create itself, then how can an entire spectrum of existence just appear? How is it that time creates itself, space creates itself, an atom creates itself, and that same atom inflates itself into a fully functioning universe? Yes, there is evidence of what happens in the Big Bang between the start of it and now, but it is still physically impossible for it to even start. The way I see it, science and scientists avoid the beginning because they realize it's impossible. So they make it sketchy. Acting like there is a solution but we don't know it yet. And it's working too.

I don't understand why people keep on believing that just because they don't understand something it obviously must be wrong. The theory of the Big Bang does NOT state that everything came from nothing. It states that at one point the universe was condensed into a very small, very dense, and very hot state and has now expanded into the universe we know today.

It absolutely does not explain how or why the universe started, only the conditions following it. And evolution has nothing to do with the Big Bang, nor does it state that something came from nothing. Evolution describes how life acts after it has formed. It is an intrinsic property of life.

No good scientist in their right mind pretends to know how the universe began nor state that "everything came from nothing." And the Big Bang and Evolution have so much evidence backing them that it's no longer a question of "are they correct?" but more, "what more can we learn about them?"

If you want one of the most compelling pieces of evidence for the Big Bang theory, I suggest you look at this: Cosmic microwave background - Wikipedia

And please, keep in mind that just because you don't understand something doesn't mean that it can't be true.

 

[Anohito]

[snip]
And please, keep in mind that just because you don't understand something doesn't mean that it can't be true.

For the Theologically Correct, "I don't understand" something all too often means "This is not Theologically Correct!"

 

[Mycernius]

I don't understand why people keep on believing the theory of the Big Band and Evolution. I'm serious. The whole theory is that nothing created something.

The theory of evolution has nothing to do with the big bang. The theory of evolution just deals with how life evolves. It doesn't even deal with how life began, that is abiogenesis.

The big bang is really a bit of a misnomer. There was no bang, or explosion. It was the creation of time and space. There are various models of how that started and where it came from. The theory deals with the rapid expansion of the universe and the condensation of elementary particles into heavier particles and matter.

How can nothing do that? Never once has there been an example where nothing has created something.

Yet theists are quite willing to drop that creation from nothing when it comes to the magic man. It apparently managed it. Once again theists impose their rules on science, but will not follow them when it comes to magic man.

So if even a molecule can't create itself,

Err, yes it can. Oxygen, hydrogen and numerous gases do not exist as single atoms. They form themselves into molecules. Hydrogen becomes H2, the same with oxygen. Giant molecular clouds are awash with molecules created from hydrogen, carbon and oxygen that react and bind to form carbon monoxide, carbon dioxide, water and hydrogen carbon polymers. I mean where do you think all the methane in gas gaints came from?

The way I see it, science and scientists avoid the beginning because they realize it's impossible. So they make it sketchy. Acting like there is a solution but we don't know it yet. And it's working too.

No, they do not avoid it. They will say, we don't know, but we have models on various hypothesis that seem to follow. Much better than magic.

Mycernius : you always want to prove to you , but you didn't prove us exactly ??

That is because you don't prove a negative. If you make a claim, ie: God exists, then you must provide evidence to back up that claim.
I could go around saying outrageous things, but you would ask for evidence for these claims.

and you can check that ... you can take Qur'an from every islamic countries and compare them , you won't see any difference between them.
but if you take other holy books like ( Tawrat , Ingeel ) you'll see that every country has own holy book , that mean that that book was changed ..

Incorrect. See article. This man did just that, compared qu'rans from various different Arabic speaking countries, and guess what? There were differences.

 

[Mycernius]

it looks like you did a really good search Mycernius and I am happy that you are trying to find the truth and argue about it.....
I am not sure if you will accept this but I will be a way for the next three days *having an ERP midterm at Tuesday*
so can I delay the respond until that time? because it will take a time to go through all of your reply and manage to study at the same time
I am telling you this to not let you wait too long for a reply my friend
the same goes for Ma Cherie........if you dont mind guys

Good luck with the mid-term. Hope you do well. Don't worry about the time to answer. I'm sure others will chip in their two pennies worth.

 

[Glenski]

I don't understand why people keep on believing the theory of the Big Band and Evolution. I'm serious. The whole theory is that nothing created something. How can nothing do that?

Actually, the theory is open-ended about the actual cause.

Evolution doesn't have a cause? Excuse me?

As for Big Band era, I love Glenn Miller.

 

[becki_kanou]

As for Big Band era, I love Glenn Miller.

Darn it! I was just about to make that joke until I scrolled down and saw your post.

 

[Hime]

finished my mid-termﾂ…..it was good, thanks God
I am sorry for the late reply, I barely replied on half of your post Mycernius and it will takes me a while to read all those complex evolution materials *to be honest I am not in those topic *

For example: Who was the first Muslim? Mohammad, Jesus, Abraham, Moses?

I don't know what is this has to do with our original discussion, but anyways I will explain.
yeah, the verses you stated said in the behave of each prophet that he is either muslim or the first of muslims.
First, you must now that Allah was talked about each prophet according to his time, and another important thing you must now is that Islam is the submitting that there is no god but allah *as it means literally in the Quran*
A better example might help I guess:
someone asking in a football match "who scored the first goal?" and you reply it was the first person who scored the goal in the football game that is being played presently *like it was the player x*, not the first person who ever scored in history.
I hope that answer the question
The same for prophet Moses, who Allah said about him in the Quran Surah al aaraf (7:143) it means the first muslim (who submit the oneness of Allah) in that era.
There is a long time between each prophet and the other, so all of those prophets are Muslims, which mean in Arabic: the total submission that there is only one God
To go in depth in this issue let me explain the Arabic meaning for the word Islam or Muslim
First the word islam is the submitting to anything, and the word muslim is the one who submitted himself.
The word (Yuslem) or يسلم is the verb of that word
*I am not sure if you got what I mean, because its hard to explain those Arabic linguistic to non Arabic speakers*

Can Mohammad see allah: Yes - 53:1-18, 81:15-29; No - 6:102-103, 42:51

in the verses at surah al najem (53: 1-18) and al takweer (81:15-29) that was for describing the meeting between Mohammed and Gabriel (the angel) in his true image which he saw him only twice in his life
but Mohammed did not see Allah with his own eyes, he see him by his heart like feeling the greatness of Allah in the Israa and Miraj event,
because as you stated in the verses you mentioned above, there is no single human can see Allah, and all the believers will see him in the hereafter because allah will show himself to us.
This link will give you a detailed answer
Can We See God?
will read the other materials later.........

 

[Hime]

okay guys....here I got some free time to reply on those kind people who wait to be replied when I was busy

But my question is, why is it difficult to fathom that there is a possibility that the universe can't exist on its own?

simply because nothing can exist by its own.....I dont know how to explain that your laptop cant made itself in one night and be ready for you to use !!
I think because its even hard to think for a moment that this whole universe made itself......it rather scary to think that way to me...how can the universe create itself !!

Incorrect. See article. This man did just that, compared qu'rans from various different Arabic speaking countries, and guess what? There were differences.

the link he provided is nothing but the seven readings, which mean the way you pronounce the Quran in, but it has nothing to do with the meaning. you might find some slight differences in the way of writing those words based on how you pronounce. this is only the change of pronouncing the quran, there is no single change in the meaning of the words, its all grammers issues like the stressing specific letter or extend the pronouncing of a specific letter
to make it more clear, take this example:
instead of saying : la ila ila allah
there might be a reading for saying : laaa ilah ila allah
but both are la ilah ila allah which mean: No God But Allah
I hope you got it
to be honest, this is the first time I heard that someone consider the seven readings of Quran as a source of the consistency!!
you might ask why there are differences?
its because in the time of the revelation of Quran, there was like many kinds of tribes along with the Quraish tribe which was the most tribe perfect in the Arabic language *which is Mohammed (PBUH) belong to as well *
anyways, as the tribes differ their languages was slightly different in terms of some letters even when they all under the same language.....but the way they pronounce the letters are slightly especially the vowels changed as I
said before.
okay its hard again to explain this complex arabic language to non arabic speakers....
but I hope you got what I mean
and here I found an interesting article replying on what Samuel Green said in the articles you stated
Reply To Samuel Green's "The Seven Readings Of The Qur'an"
I will reply on the other issues later in sha allah (God Willing)

 

[Ukonkivi]

What's a why?
Personally I don't believe we were created by any overlord God for his pleasure.
I do however, understand myself as a complexed series of cause and effect. Why was I born? Because my parents had me. Why did my parents have me? Personal desire. Why did my parents personally desire to have me? Cellular organism function. Why do cellular organisms function to reproduce? Lacking in scientific understanding to answer how exactly cells were first created out of molecules and how it came about.

I will assume that the "why" here implies that God to be entertained here just as the "free" in "free will" assumes a degree of determinism or indeterminism. So in this case, I believe that I don't have a reason to exist, and I don't need one.

I believe there may be something special to cells because I don't understand enough about them, as in there may be more why's than I would expect involved, many causes to the effect. But I do not believe them to have a why that has to do with Jesus or Mohammad, or even a single guy in the middle east.

 

[Hime]

What's a why?
why that has to do with Jesus or Mohammad, or even a single guy in the middle east.

I am sorry that we driven far a way of the main topic of this thread......you are right Ukonkivi....we direct this discussion to prove whether the Quran is changed or not and start bringing the history of Mohammed era.....bla bla bla.
it has nothing to do with a specif prophet since all of them doing the same task that allah assigned to them, but it has something to do with the creator of those prophets and us the other people

actually I start feel that we have to stick on the topic of why do you exist?
and start a new thread about the quran for those who like to know more about it.

 

[Red5]

actually I start feel that we have to stick on the topic of why do you exist?
and start a new thread about the quran for those who like to know more about it.

I think it's great idea my sister ...


and insh'Allah I 'll help you in your great work ...

good luck

 

[212809]

What's a why?
Personally I don't believe we were created by any overlord God for his pleasure.
I do however, understand myself as a complexed series of cause and effect. Why was I born? Because my parents had me. Why did my parents have me? Personal desire. Why did my parents personally desire to have me? Cellular organism function. Why do cellular organisms function to reproduce? Lacking in scientific understanding to answer how exactly cells were first created out of molecules and how it came about.

I will assume that the "why" here implies that God to be entertained here just as the "free" in "free will" assumes a degree of determinism or indeterminism. So in this case, I believe that I don't have a reason to exist, and I don't need one.

I believe there may be something special to cells because I don't understand enough about them, as in there may be more why's than I would expect involved, many causes to the effect. But I do not believe them to have a why that has to do with Jesus or Mohammad, or even a single guy in the middle east.

The theory of cells is interesting. But some sciencetists have hard facts that our body does not have a soul. Just because it moves or thinks doesn't mean it has a soul. Look at a plant, it can move and react to light. Or the retina of your eye, which can react to brightness or darkness by itself. Or single cell organisms, which can sence where is up, down, left and right. The brain appears because we are moving objects. Because moving is dangerous, we need to have a nervous system to tell us where we are moving, because we can be moving into the mouth of the animal that is trying to eat us. Furthermore, our brain can also predict events and hence, the theory of conciousness is formed. So the theory of our body having a soul is just incorrect. Then comes the theory of the "observer". Strictly speaking, there can only be one "observer" at any given time in the universe. The selection of the "observer" is believed to be random. If this "observer" dies, another "observer" takes over. The reason the "observer" exists can be described in this way. The "observer" is just like a resistor in an electronics circuit. Its job is to tell the amplifer that this amount of current passing through is correct. If the current drops, the resistor tells the amplifer to push more current through. so there is a balance, and the balance has to be correct, otherwise something will burnt. The other way of explanation is like being an auditor. The auditor checks the company sales record and verifies that there is no discripences. So in theory, the "observer" is here to monitor the universe and to provide feedback.

 

[Glenski]

how can the universe create itself !!

People say God created Himself, or at least that he has always been around. Just as silly logic, doncha think?