U.S. Forces in Japan: time to say good-bye?

[tatto san]

Americans, go home! Why not?

It is NOT a funny question! Very serious !:souka:
Why don't say - Americans, go home as National Movement?
Amazing.... but not so actual..... and imporant, may be...

May be, people are happy in any case....
American dream became as japanese dream ?
Big house, big car, a lot of money, but hard...hard...hard work of japanese salary-man ?

And, don't forget it is better for safety because of some "small and strange" N-Korean missiles.... :blush:

cheers,

 

[GodEmperorLeto]

I agree that America should leave Japan. During WW2 Japan was amazing, but with its industrial base think what it could do now. Japan has gotten far to passive, they should return to at least some semblance of their WW2 self, only thing I would change is the atrocious human rights violations.

It's more than just human rights violations. I disagree with a lot about Japan returning to its WW2 roots, which are, politically speaking, militarism. It was a military regime that controlled the government, effectively being a 20th-century shogunate.

However, I do agree with reverence for the emperor. I also believe that the U.S. and Japan should re-evaluate their treaty. I think we should keep a base in Okinawa , still, but it should be reduced in size and strength. And I think any re-evaluation of the U.S.-Japan accords should have the input of S. Korea, China, and Taiwan (and perhaps Russia), because any changes to the U.S.-Japan relationship will have an impact on all of the East Asian socio-political-economic sphere. They'd probably prefer the Japanese government officially renounce the Pacific War and the actions of the Japanese military government during it.

But we should definitely not simply cut and leave. Japan has been a vassal state for a long time. Such are the spoils of war. But enough time has passed for the fence to be mended formally.

 

[Sukotto]

I think the crazy Russian you describe will show their pragmatic approach against the DPRK action soon withing next 2-3 hours in your country today.

Oops. That was supposed to be a response to member "crazyRussian".

And, in my post it was supposed to be 36 "billionares",
no "billions".

 

[ricecake]

US would only completely withdraw from Japan or Pacific Rim region whenever it's militarily defeated by a new world power,probably god knows when !

 

[ricecake]

US troops are there to " clamp down " Japanese military force from imperial adventures outside of it's territory.

 

[GodEmperorLeto]

We are also there to make sure North Korea and China don't get too aggressive either. Honestly, I am more worried about North Korea than Japan.

 

[changedonrequest]

US troops are there to " clamp down " Japanese military force from imperial adventures outside of it's territory.

Do you actually believe that? The United States has been pushing Japan to become more active in UN Operations throughout the world, particularly after what happened during the First Gulf War.

The Japanese Consititution needs to be rewritten before Japan could legally take any offensive action anywhere.

Plus the current population doesn't look at or see the Emperor as being "divine" or otherwise and are much more educated than what they were prior to WWII, to imply that Japan has any "imperialistic" ideals is just plain ludicrous.

 

[Carlson]

First, having the U.S. stationed in Japan is part of Japan's defense/military strategy. So, when it is argued that the U.S. should get out of Japan so that Japan can freely come up with its only military defense strategy, I argue that Japan already has come up with a defense strategy: rely on the U.S.!:lol:

I love this man... lol

 

[Sukotto]

US would only completely withdraw from Japan or Pacific Rim region whenever it's militarily defeated by a new world power,probably god knows when !

That will never happen. The US economy may implode, but it is very highly unlikely that the US could ever be defeated militarily, many people agree. It does afterall spend more on military than the entire world combined. IT is now actually official US policy to not even allow any other power to attempt to become its equal. Talk about paranoia.

This documentary available online at DemocracyNow!
Preventive Warriors covers recent changes in US foreign policy.

The US economy imploding isn't actually that unlikely. It could happen.
It's what helped bring down the Soviet empire afterall. Imperial overreach. Oh, and let's not forget the key, their own people.
Would it take that for 'our' government to give up its global empire (empire - of which no good can come from)?

 

[ricecake]

PNAC = Project for New American Century

 

[DoctorP]

Scott...I thought you were in prison?

 

[Sukotto]

I got out on July 7th. Hooray!

It was only 90 days, but still boring as jigoku.

 

[DoctorP]

well at least you have a story for your grandkids!

 

[Elizabeth van Kampen]

Maybe a stupid question;
But why on earth has the USA treated Japan so completely different from Germany at the end of WWII?
First of all the German-Americans were also interned just like the Japanese-Americans, but only the Japanese-Americains received $ 20.000 each for the time they were interned during the war. The German-Americans never even asked for money.
Germany was parted in four sections, British, French, Russian and American and what's more, all war criminals were kept for ages in prison.
Japan was only occupied by America, in 1957 all war criminals were set free.

Germany has paid all debts and more than that back to their victims, Japan received the San Francisco Treaty that protected the country so that none of the war victims were paid back.

Was the USA so scared for China, for Russia in those days? Amazing.

 

[Han Chan]

The mentality of the US is like if Japan was still occupied. This is one of the main reasons for why many japanese would like to see the US forces go - no matter that the country is not able to defend itself right now.
Response to Elizabeth:
As I recall very few germans were actually interned, while virtually all japanese were kept in camps. A second point: the executed war criminals remained dead regardless the amnesty!
One of the main differences were that the US forces were not the only occupying forces. Wikipedia describes the difference between the aftermath of World War II in Germany and Japan:
"In the aftermath of World War II, Germany and Japan, the two major Axis Powers, responded to their role in the war in different ways. Germany sought to compensate Holocaust victims, to deliver justice to war criminals and to bear witness to the historical record. Japan sought to rebuild the nations it had attacked through monetary and developmental aid but still faced severe criticism from China and Korea for not sufficiently acknowledging and apologizing for its war crimes. Such criticism often contrasts with the response to Japan's efforts by Southeast Asian countries, and some commentators argue that Japan has faced irrational criticism when compared with Germany.
Furthermore, it is often argued that making strong efforts to rehabilitate its image serves Germany's national interest as a Central European nation with land borders and close economical ties to many neighbouring nations, whereas the island nation Japan is less dependent on trade with its immediate neighbours.
As Germany was leading the way for a united Europe, the issue for Japan became much more heated since the 1990s. Many suggested that in the past, with the pride of having the second largest economy in the world, Japan could better withstand criticisms from other economically weaker Asian countries. However, with the Japanese economy in recession since the early 1990s, the Japanese have developed a case of "apology fatigue" and have taken a harder stance against criticisms of its wartime conduct, especially China, whose economic development is making Japan concerned about Asia's balance of power."
The historic and political differences were many, but one thing makes me wonder: Why does no one seem to have any hang-ups regarding the Italians?

 

[ricecake]

Japan sought to rebuild the nations it had attacked through monetary and developmental aid but still faced severe criticism from China and Korea for not sufficiently acknowledging and apologizing for its war crimes.

Those so-called " aid packages " all tie to Japanese investments in both Korea and China in return benefitting Japan mutually,not reparations what Japan still owes these two countries and civilian families Japanese Imperial Army inflicted great harms upon.

 

[ricecake]

(1) But why on earth has the USA treated Japan so completely different from Germany at the end of WWII ?

(2) First of all the German-Americans were also interned just like the Japanese-Americans, but only the Japanese-Americains received $ 20.000 each for the time they were interned during the war. The German-Americans never even asked for money.

(3) Germany has paid all debts and more than that back to their victims, Japan received the San Francisco Treaty that protected the country so that none of the war victims were paid back.

(4) Was the USA so scared for China, for Russia in those days? Amazing.

(1) Japanese were good ***-kissers to the American conquerors opposed to Europeans historically regarded Yankees as " country cousins ".No countries in that region had political clout in wrestling USA on aftermath WW 2 issues.

(2) Many Japanese-Americans lost properties,like homes and farmlands etc.Ronald Reagan issued an official apology with $1 billion in reparation during the Japan/USA honeymoon decade of 1980's.

(3) Japan never paid a penny in reparations,basically got away with murder of 20-40 million mostly yellow folks.

(4 ) Not really,it was the beginning era of American Empire.USA " sold out " China,as it divided the world by ideologies.American military complex played " war games " in proxy wars with Russia and China around the globe as it positioned itself as the prominent freedom fighter.

 

[ricecake]

(1) Germany was parted in four sections, British, French, Russian and American.

(2) Japan was only occupied by America,in 1957 all war criminals were set free.

(1) Russia militarily grabbed Japan's 4 northern islands,president Yeltsin rejected Japan's $10 billion offer for them in the late 1990's.Brits and French weren't in direct combat with Japan.

(2) America won the Pacific War militarily defeated Japan.There were backdoor negotiations including access to Japan's biological warfare research conducted in old Manchuria.

 

[Elizabeth van Kampen]

Han Chan and ricecake,

Thank you very much for your clear answers!
I was almost 15 years old, when Japan occupied the former Dutch East Indies, today Indonesia.

I have started a website (not completely finished yet) about Before,During and After WW II; www.dutch-east-indies.com

I am very glad with the answers from both of you, thanks!

 

[Crazy Russian]

Crazy Russian - all governments have their own self interests.
Russia today has 36 billions, when before they changed their
religion from state communism to state capitalism there were none.
Ruling classes under either guise or whatever guise, always have
the security of their own self-interests first at heart.
But you knew that.

If a Kurd, after surviving bloody battle with Saddam Hussein's army and a long, difficult escape through the mountains, is crushed and killed by a parachute drop of humanitarian aid, that, my friend, is irony writ large. QUOTE]
humanitarian aid, perhaps.
but of course, a bomb is never humanitarian aid.
"Covert action should not be confused with missionary work."
-- Henry Kissinger, commenting on the US sellout of the Kurds in Iraq in 1975
war is our common enemy

Concerning the 'religion':

We also have the different mentality now. I've communicated with the Americans a lot. They seem to me to still have the Cold War mentality. It's very pity. Have a good head on your shoulders! Don't let your president rape your mind, please. And believe me that the Chinese, the Iraqi, the North Koreans, etc., are not your enemies. By the way, do you know that the Russians is high on the list of the nations that like the Americans. The Cold War is over. Whaddaya think?

War is our common enemy.

It means the following:​

Those who unleash wars are our common enemies.

Consequently:​

George W. Bush and Ehud Olmert are our common enemies.

Well done! No sophistry. Just simple (and irrefutable) logic, isn't it?

If you must know, I partly agree with you. I support only just wars and those making the world better. Good example: the wars between the French and Russian Empires in the 19th century. The adversaries were matches and respected each other...

The wars you country has waged are stupid and nonsensical. They have been waged for the sole purpose of destabilising the world. (The USA does benefit from it, doesn't it?)

Undoubtedly, you government has its own interests (including in Japan). Nevertheless, it would be great if your politicians respect the opinions and interests of the other nations and stop weaving coward and surreptitious plots. (Though, on the other hand, they don't respect even the Americans.)

As regards Russia, she has always (except for several Soviet periods) tried to help the world and her neighbours (without carrying about her own interests).

Russia saved the world from Napoleon and Hitler. I guess that she must save it from the American and Jewish aggression. The American and Israeli regimes are worse than that of Nazi Germany, and especially much worse than the Soviet one. Olmert and Bush are much worse than Hitler. I respect Hitler for his having been honest. He said: 'Our main purpose is conquering Russia and the Russians'. Your politicians concoct stupid tales about weapons of mass destruction, fighting against communism, terrorism, et ainsi de suite. Why cannot Bush avow that the sh!t happening in the Middle East is genocide of the Muslims? The USA uses Israel as the platform to strangle the Muslim world and Japan as the platform to strangle China, North Korea and Russia. Why won't you want to try to invade Russia? Though I know why...

I think that the Americans dropped bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki with the purpose of occupying Japan forever and using her as the instrument to exert pernicious influence on the other countries...

...So must the US forces leave Japan? Surely they must get out of Japan. But not now. A bit later... :suggestivewink:

And I do hope that the Americans will respect opinions and interests of Japan and the Japanese.

Tel est mon avis...

 

[Sukotto]

Crazy_Russian - Sort of makes sense. I'm not sure there is a such
thing as a 'just war'. It might be that war just is. That said,
I do not believe it would be justified for someone during the 1930s-40s
to tell Jews, Slavs, Roma, Gays, Catholics, etc. to just sit back and take it.


I must say, I know very little about the middle east coflict,
except that the US has no treaty with Israel although Israel is the
number 1 or 2 recipient of US foreign military aid.
-Hezbola was first created as a result of Israel invading Lebanon the first time.
-Hamas was funded by Israel in its infant days as a divisive technique because the PLO was secular to include all Palestinians. About 1/3 of Palestinians are Christians.

But, as Ariel Sharon said of the occupied territories,
they cannot remain occupied forever.
Same with over 700 known or acknowledged US bases in over 120
different countries, and specifically Japan, they cannot be there forever.


I will try to keep up with what is going on in the world.
It is difficult sometimes.
The vast majority of all media are owned by like 3 or 4 large corporations.
Our only local newspaper, owned by Ganette, recently cut back drastically
on there world news coverage and moved it FROM the front page.
WHAT?!? They claim they were responding to readers wishes.
That's ok, for me anyway, I get my news via the net.
When will that go?
Time to bust out the ole shortwave radio.

 

[Sukotto]

Originally Posted by kokusu
First, having the U.S. stationed in Japan is part of Japan's defense/military strategy. So, when it is argued that the U.S. should get out of Japan so that Japan can freely come up with its only military defense strategy, I argue that Japan already has come up with a defense strategy: rely on the U.S.!


I love this man... lol

I would say that is pretty much the truth.
Although, with all due respect, I do not see why any body would
invade Japan. I mean, what would they have to gain? Most
wars have resources as their underlying cause. Why did Japan invade
other countries? Resources. They don't do it just because someone
insults them or to feel good about themselves. That might be some
excuse given domestically, but... come on. Was WW1 truly about only
the assassination of Archduke Ferdinand?

 

[4321go]

US troops are there to " clamp down " Japanese military force from imperial adventures outside of it's territory.

Japan has the ability to rebuild its army as large as the WW2.
For its industry is so develop~
It can produce many weapons within month.

 

[nurizeko]

Its a safe bet to simply state that the reasons for the US being in Japan and the Japanese allowing the US there far outweigh the cons.

Though large and relatively modern, Japans military budget is fairly small, Ity essentially allows America to willingly pick up the bill for Japan's defence interests.

 

[Crazy Russian]

Okay. 'A just war' sounds not very well. The word 'just' is too 'moral'. I should have written 'the wars that command respect and admiration', not 'just wars.'

In 1812 Napoleon invaded the Russian Empire. He considered Russia to be the only obstacle to conquer the world. At the same time, he respected Russian soldiers and was delighted with their courage. That war wasn't the war of hatred, dislike and aversion. The opponents (I don't want to call them 'enemies') respected each other. They were almost friends.

Several quotations:

'Les russes se conduisirent vaillamment, et, chose rare a la querre, on vit deux masses d'infanterie marcher resolument l'une contre l'autre sans qu'aucune des deux ceda avant d'etre abordee.'

Napoleon: ' Quelques bataillons russes montrerent de l'intrepidite.'

Napoleon: 'De beaux hommes!' (about the Russian soldiers).

Et cetera...

On the one hand, I am delighted with Napoleon. He was genius and one of the greatest human beings ever. He braved the world.

On the other hand, I am delighted with the Russian soldiers who beat the Napoleon's Army (perhaps, the Greatest Army ever) when it invaded the Russian Empire.

I'd like to die in such a war...