This just in: Japan free from blame!

[Shibuyaexpat]

Most important things are

Siege by ABCD cooperation.
Hull note.

First blood on ABCD.

I'm feeling really dense today. Can you please explain what you mean by ABCD cooperation? Hull note? Are you speaking in code to your mother ship?

 

[Index]

ABCD cooperation refers to when the Zorbling Energiser Conference decided that Fartblatz X would no longer be able to deal with the Krongborians Hull II model laser. I thought everyone knew.

 

[Shibuyaexpat]

ABCD cooperation refers to when the Zorbling Energiser Conference decided that Fartblatz X would no longer be able to deal with the Krongborians Hull II model laser. I thought everyone knew.

LMAO!! Thanks!

 

[PaulTB]

I'm feeling really dense today. Can you please explain what you mean by ABCD cooperation? Hull note? Are you speaking in code to your mother ship?

Hull note - Wikipedia
"On November 26, 1941 Secretary Hull presented the Japanese ambassador with the 'Hull note', which as one of its conditions demanded the complete withdrawal of all Japanese troops from China."

No idea about "ABCD cooperation"

 

[Hiroshi66]

The Atom Bomb has been a weapon. When people say Truman did it to intimidate Stalin, it is right. If it was really to end the war faster, Truman wouldn't suggest an A-bomb on Pyongyang or Beijing during the Korean War. If I am correct Lyndon Johnson or Nixon suggested an atomic bomb on Hanoi as a last resort.. but don't quote me on that.

 

[Girla]

japanese people are cowards

I just want to state a simple fact: japanese people are cowards for not having enough human dignity and humanity to admit their wrongs and examine their twisted psychology. These people are so homogeneous and has such "psychotic pride" that they miss the obvious warning signs of abnormality. The japanese are simply too narrow minded (no matter how much free media they have, the japanese culture somehow puts a tinted filter in front of facts). That is why as a nation, they were able to do psychotic things during the war, and still stand so stubbornly strong today. They are not humans, and we should not waste time with creatures like that. On the other hand, I must admit, they do have a sense of unity that other asians nations can learn from (but be careful, of course).

Above are thoughts from my human reaction to the unfairness of history. However, from a Christian perspective, it's a fact that people are sinful. Everyone is messed up in some way or other. Only God can redeem us. The Japanese certainly showed how sinful a nation can become. But of course every nation has history of sins destroying lifes. So my first paragraph is to show my human reaction. But my second paragraph is to show that God is so much bigger than my humanness. He knows my every thought and yet still loves me completely. I pray that the nations will learn to forgive each other, and see the Truth and Love, which is the only thing that can save anyone.

 

[Tamer Brad]

Dear Girla,

HERE. HAVE A BIBLE AND KEEP YOUR RELIGIOUS BELIEFS TO YOURSELF. Your way isn't necessarily the right way. I am a Christian, but I understand that Japan is not a Christian nation, and that isn't a problem; it's just a cultural difference.

And I'm going to ignore your ignorance by insulting an entire nationality of people. Jesus didn't seem like the kind of guy to do something like that. Jesus didn't even say those kinds of things about people that nailed him to a cross.

To say they aren't human is absolute bullshit, and makes me wonder why you are here, a site to view Japan in positive and constructive lights. There are many Japanese I know who don't agree with the government. Your entire post reeks of ignorance and makes me wonder if you know anything about Japan.

Moreover, not only are you judging an entire race based on the government's actions, you are basing them on actions that are SEVERAL DECADES OLD. Isn't Japan a pacifist nation now?

 

[Hiroshi66]

Girla.. the one reason I have lost respect for Christian denominations and politicians are because of the new fundamentalist belief of comparing acts that non-Christian countries commited with Christian principles. I am a Christian - but I keep my beliefs to myself.

All countries have pride. You don't see the US conservatives (excluding the liberal media) discussing that Iraq really was a mistake and killed more people than imagined.

 

[ralian]

To Girla

Girla, you sound so un-Christian to me.
Jesus taught us to love one another. Not to hate each other or condemn each other.
Please read the Bible if you are Christian.
If you are not a Christian, please do not pretend that you are.

 

[Hiroshi66]

Ralian, I don't think that she's not a Christian, but I do think that she is misinformed about our religion and is being taught her beliefs by Christian fundamenalists.

 

[Shibuyaexpat]

Japanese people are cowards??!! Ha.ha.ha. This coming from someone who only posts once and doesn't have to courage to hear the rebuttals. This is going to be fun...

I just want to state a simple fact: japanese people are cowards for not having enough human dignity and humanity to admit their wrongs and examine their twisted psychology.

Uh...technically, that's an opinion. See, like "That bird is pretty" or "That redneck has probably never read a book before." These are opinions. Facts are: "Water is wet," and "Rednecks that never read books are not well-read." Okay, that last one was a self-sustaining argument.

These people are so homogeneous and has such "psychotic pride" that they miss the obvious warning signs of abnormality. The japanese are simply too narrow minded (no matter how much free media they have, the japanese culture somehow puts a tinted filter in front of facts).

Let me guess, you voted for Bushie, didn't you? Pyschotic pride like "The War on Terrorism" or "Operation Irqai Freedom?" Yeah, that's level-headed thinking all right. Japanese media <FOX NEWS. So what are you saying exactly?

That is why as a nation, they were able to do psychotic things during the war, and still stand so stubbornly strong today. They are not humans, and we should not waste time with creatures like that.

Translation: "Git yer gun, Billy-Bob and get off yer sister! We gonna hunt some Japs!"

On the other hand, I must admit, they do have a sense of unity that other asians nations can learn from (but be careful, of course).

This is indeed true, all you Asian people. Japanese even like to pee together. Why I've seen streets in Tokyo empty in flash because someone needed to go.

Above are thoughts from my human reaction to the unfairness of history. However, from a Christian perspective, it's a fact that people are sinful.

Great. Another Idiot's Guide to the Bible. Please. Enlighten us with your evangelical wisdom. Annoint us with your divine knowledge.

Everyone is messed up in some way or other. Only God can redeem us.

If this is true, then He does have to redeem you too? Damn, and I thought we'd be rid of you.

The Japanese certainly showed how sinful a nation can become. But of course every nation has history of sins destroying lifes.

Wow, and you thought up this statement all by your self? Really? That's amazing! Call Guiness. We officially have the World's Most Obvious Statement Ever!

So my first paragraph is to show my human reaction. But my second paragraph is to show that God is so much bigger than my humanness.

My a**-hairs have more "humanness" than you. So what?

He knows my every thought and yet still loves me completely.

That's why He's God, and we're still mortals. It takes God-like compassion and understanding to put up with your "thoughts!"

I pray that the nations will learn to forgive each other, and see the Truth and Love, which is the only thing that can save anyone.

Amen. Now go away!

 

[Hiroshi66]

I think this will soon turn into a Christian fundamentalist discussion..

 

[lexico]

There are some fast and loose reasoning that deserve historical criticism; I regret I had not noticed and corrected this earlier.

Yes, that's my point. Where is the tacit and regretful acknowledgement of the thousands of Koreans forcibly brought to Hiroshima (who also perished when the bomb landed) during the colonial rule to provide slave labor for the Japanese War machine?

Another point I'd like to add is that there IS a monument to the Koreans who died in the atomic attack on Hiroshima. Its in the peace memorial park, not far from ground zero...
There is a monument to the Koreans killed in Hiroshima peace park.

Let's not rush over, senseiman. Let me show you what it took to get that monument in that part of Hiroshima Peace Park. The first monument to memorialise the A-bomb victims was erected in 1955. Of the 420,000 irradiated Hiroshima residents of which 159,283 are dead (acc. to a 1975 statistical study Atomic Radioactivity and Radiation Sickness) there were ca. 50,000 irradiated Koreans of which 20,000 to 30,000 are dead (acc. to a 1985 statistical study Statistics on Korean Atomic Bomb Victims), which would mean roughly 1 out of 6 (between 10 and 20% acc. to here) A-bomb victims were Koreans. But of the 30 some monuments erected for the Atomic-bomb dead, was any dedicated to a non-Japanese people who suffered from the same bomb, who were conscripted to Hiroshima by Imperial Japan for the war effort ? No.

15 yrs after the first Japanese monument, a Korean monument was to be built inside the Peace Memorial. This time, the Hiroshima city gov't opposed the plan on grounds that "There weren't enough space within the Peace Park for another monument," so the Korean-Japanese residents chose .jpg]a site near where one Korean prince Li Wu became hit by the A-bomb and erected a monument for the Korean dead there April 10, 1970, 35 yrs after the blast.

Numerous petitions by Korean survivors/bereaved were turned down WITHOUT EXCEPTION.Thanks to this firm racist policy of Hiroshima local government, all memorial artifacts were constructed OUTSIDE the Hiroshima Park.

While the only monument dedicated to the 30,000 Korean victims of the A-bomb was laid on the road side with no official recognition, humiliated in the fume and dust of the busy post-WWII city, 7 more momuments dedicated to the Japnaese were erected within the Peace Park which "hadn't enough space for another monument."

29 yrs later in July 21, 1999, a move into the Peace Park space was granted on condition that the costs not be covered by the city of Horishima. On Aug. 6, 1999, 54 yrs after the blast, the Korean dead of Hiroshima were given a proper memorial service as was long deserving. So don't you speak light of the matter, senseiman-san !

Do you think that Hiroshima was just an ordinary town and that American forces chose it as one of the primary targets on whim? Hiroshima was the major industrial city and launching point for campaigns throughout Asia. Children divided their days in school and in factories, making weapons. Are they innocent? Yes, in that they are ordinary citizens dutifully following the mandate of their leader.

As far as I know the children of Hiroshima were not involved in making weapons in factories. Most young children had been evacuated from the cities and the older ones who stayed were in the process of clearing streets as a fire prevention measure when the bomb struck.

That must explain why the death ratio was considerably higher among the Koreans many of whom did not have families in the city, being conscripts.

Hiroshima wasn't a major military centre, there was just a regimental headquarters on the site of Hiroshima castle, quite insignificant in military terms. THe bomb didn't specifically target the cities industrial or port facilities either, it was dropped directly over the downtown area where it could inflict the most damage on the civilian population.

Dead wrong, senseiman. Instead of wasting breath, let me just quote wiki for your information.
Atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki

Hiroshima during World War II

At the time of its bombing, Hiroshima was a city of considerable industrial and military significance. Some military camps were located nearby such as the headquarters of the Fifth Division and Field Marshal Hata's 2nd General Army Headquarters, which commanded the defense of all of southern Japan. Hiroshima was a major supply and logistics base for the Japanese military. The city was a communications center, a storage point, and an assembly area for troops.

It was chosen as a target because it had not suffered damage from previous bombing raids, allowing an ideal environment to measure the damage caused by the atomic bomb. The city was mobilized for "all-out" war, with thousands of conscripted women, children and Koreans working in military offices, military factories and building demolition and with women and children training to resist any invading force.

The center of the city contained a number of reinforced concrete buildings as well as lighter structures. Outside the center, the area was congested by a dense collection of small wooden workshops set among Japanese houses; a few larger industrial plants lay near the outskirts of the city. The houses were of wooden construction with tile roofs. Many of the industrial buildings also were of wood frame construction. The city as a whole was highly susceptible to fire damage.

The population of Hiroshima had reached a peak of over 380,000 earlier in the war but prior to the atomic bombing the population had steadily decreased because of a systematic evacuation ordered by the Japanese government. At the time of the attack the population was approximately 255,000. This figure is based on the registered population, used by the Japanese in computing ration quantities, and the estimates of additional workers and troops who were brought into the city may not be highly accurate.

Listen, I'm not saying that Japan should not have memorials for their dead. I'm just saying it would a lot easier to sympathize if they acknowledged their own part in the war, rather than trying to either buy forgiveness or alter historical references.

Japan has acknowledged its wartime past a hell of a lot better than most countries. US atrocities in Vietnam were much more severe than those Japan inflicted on Korea, but no US president has ever apologized nor has the US government given economic aid in compensation. The fact that Japan has gone sixty years without becoming involved in a war whereas most of the western powers who defeated Japan have waged numerous unjust and bloody wars tells me Japan learned the lessons of WW2 better than most.

Please see this and state your response. One must compare FIRSTLY what are comparable, and only thereafter compare the less comparables. For example comparing two Axis countries would be considered more apt and reasonable, whereas comaring one Axis nation with one Allied nation first would be criticised for trying to deflect criticism on Japan by dragging in the US without making a porper comparison with other Axis nations such as Germany and Italy. The following link would serve as a good starting point.
Responses of Germany and Japan to World War II crimes

This frustration is compounded by the fact that throughout the Park grounds, there are petitions to sue the American government for use of the bomb. As a direct descendent of someone who faced terrible atrocities committed by the Japanese army, it was the ultimate slap in the face !

What exactly is wrong with that? Numerous Chinese and Korean victims of Japanese atrocities (comfort women, forced laborers, etc) have sued the Japanese government for compensation, some succesfully. So why shouldn't victims of American atrocities be afforded the same privilege ?

I am all for Japanese A-bomb victims suing the US for the war crimes; nevertheless senseiman's arguement is highly subjective and misleading. Please do not argue for argument's sake; without a good historical basis with which you can support your argument, it is best to reserve your personal views qualified as such and such only until you can verify/support them. Let's not try to pass them as well-based views as you would sound. Senseiman, I must say you argue well; yet I also noticed that your art exceeds your facts by far.

 

[noyhauser]

I am all for Japanese A-bomb victims suing the US for the war crimes; nevertheless senseiman's arguement is highly subjective and misleading. Please do not argue for argument's sake; without a good historical basis with which you can support your argument, it is best to reserve your personal views qualified as such and such only until you can verify/support them. Let's not try to pass them as well-based views as you would sound. Senseiman, I must say you argue well; yet I also noticed that your art exceeds your facts by far.

... Ouch. Thats a pretty strong statement.... I mean Senseiman and I have traded blows for quite some time... but I don't think I went as far as saying that. (or I probably did and and don't remember it.)

(also this is thread necromancy at its finest).

 

[senseiman]

I just wrote a lengthy reply but the damn thing woulldn't let me post it for some reason. FRUSTRAAATING!

Anyway, my short reply. I don't doubt that the Koreans had to fight for their rightful recognition and the bureaucrats who tried to stifle them for probably racist motives are indeed spiteful creatures. But the fact still remains that they got their memorial depsite the roadblocks, which is a lot more than you can say for victims of other countries (and...er these aren't victims of Japanese agression we are talking about, they are victims of the American bomb....although they were originally victimized by the Japanese as conscript labourers).

As for Hiroshima being a military target, I acknowledge my error in stating it was a regimental headquarters when it was actually an army headquarters. But the fact that it hadn't been deemed significant enough to warrant a single bomb before August of 1945 speaks volumes about its supposed military importance. The real reason it was chosen was because as an intact city on an open plane it offered the greatest number of CIVILIAN victims (the intended targets of General LeMay's bombing campaign strategy lets not forget) and also as such it could be useful in measuring the bomb's effects. The fact is that every city in Japan at that time had military and industrial facilities, but that Hiroshima's were nowhere near important or big enough for them to have been important factor's in the cities selection.

As for comparing Japan to the US I think it is completely relevant in this context. The implied logic of the original argument is that because of Japanese wartime atrocities modern Japanese writers must not criticize American military figures, even those whose actions had a very direct impact on Japanese history. As this is effectively a debate about Japanese and American wartime and not a debate about Japanese and German wartime acts I fail to see how the comparison is somehow out of place, though I do acknowledge that Japan hasn't done anywhere near as much as Germany in this regard (can't say the same about Italy though).

 

[Shibuyaexpat]

As for Hiroshima being a military target, I acknowledge my error in stating it was a regimental headquarters when it was actually an army headquarters. But the fact that it hadn't been deemed significant enough to warrant a single bomb before August of 1945 speaks volumes about its supposed military importance. The real reason it was chosen was because as an intact city on an open plane it offered the greatest number of CIVILIAN victims (the intended targets of General LeMay's bombing campaign strategy lets not forget) and also as such it could be useful in measuring the bomb's effects. The fact is that every city in Japan at that time had military and industrial facilities, but that Hiroshima's were nowhere near important or big enough for them to have been important factor's in the cities selection.

Here's some more information on the subject from Wiki (link) Hiroshima was in fact a MAJOR military staging point, and as the article in Wiki points out, it was chosen because it suffered little or no damage from previous bombings, it was an ideal city to measure to full effect of the bomb. There were other targeted cities that had more civilians so I don't see the validity of your argument that "[Hiroshima] offered the greatest number of CIVILIAN victims."

As for General LeMay's bombing campaign and more specifically his targeting of civilians, I think you'd be surprised to know that it was Japan that pioneered the practice of civilian bombings during their campaign in China. Was it wrong for LeMay to target civilians? Yes.
Was he the first to think of it? No.
Did the Japanese military do the same prior to LeMay? Yes.

My initial criticism of the article centers on the fact that the author does very little research into the background of Japan's involvement in the war and instead focuses solely on the evils of American aggression. If the author had mentioned things like Japan's practice of bombing civilians, then I would have had a completely different reaction.

Contrary to popular perception, there are Americans who still grapple with the guilt of dropping the bomb (myself included). It was a terrible fate to deliver on to an enemy and one which I'm sure will continue to haunt us. However, as an American, I can safely say that we are also more forthcoming of our past misdeeds (e.g., illegal Japanese intern camps, Vietnam War, slavery, etc.). I seriously doubt if any major newspaper in the U.S. would/could ever allow such a revisionist view of history to be published like aticle in Japan Times.

 

[toyo91]

I have read lots of disscusions above , but as a chinese i think it is the way japanese soldier kill people make us dont understand, lots of women are raped , and the soldier killed the women later. the way japanese soldier kill people is so cruel and they sometimes take it as a kind of pleasue game. it is hard to understand for me , as i try to put myself in that situation . sometimes , i would think japanese are more close to nature, which means they keep the basic nature to surival better than chinese.
also chinese would not understand a nation borrowed so many hanzi (chinese words) from them could treat than so cruel.
I would believe japanese are more close to nature human, as i know people are very cruel while existed as a hunter society in our history.
Chinese just a deteriorited nation in some way, but with usually a kind heart.

 

[toyo91]

I also want to make up is that a nation who become civilized more later, they may be more vital , also in a kind of way more close to our cruel aspects. for the survival selection is in a very cruel way while in prehisotry society. while chinese become partly civilized in 5BC , as recorded , at that time , japan still is not a country , but a place mixed with hunter groups and havent writing language belong to themself. That is my best way to explain the human atrocity in asia.

 

[Maciamo]

I also want to make up is that a nation who become civilized more later, they may be more vital , also in a kind of way more close to our cruel aspects. for the survival selection is in a very cruel way while in prehisotry society. while chinese become partly civilized in 5BC , as recorded , at that time , japan still is not a country , but a place mixed with hunter groups and havent writing language belong to themself. That is my best way to explain the human atrocity in asia.

That sounds very fatalistic to me. It is true that Japan only became an organised country with a writing system and a capital many centuries after China, India, the Middle East or Europe. But does that mean that Japan will also be lagging behind culturally because of that ? When I see the Middle East nowadays, it doesn't seem to be the most civilised place in the world, although it was the craddle of civilizations.

 

[celtician]

The problem is with the japanese education system they are just not taught the skills to deal with difficult issues. They have what is called a ...convenient memory

 

[godppgo]

I would believe japanese are more close to nature human, as i know people are very cruel while existed as a hunter society in our history.
Chinese just a deteriorited nation in some way, but with usually a kind heart.

The reason why China is a deteriorated nation has alot to do with it's people. Chinese people are under the false belief that they are a kind, cultural advanced nation. Having been to China a few times, I see a nation who just opened its door to capitalism which its people are not prepared for. Chinese simply don't possess the maturity level nor the proper people quality to handle the flood of western ideas streaming into China. Japan has been trying to be westernized for more than 100 years now, they are still playing catching up in many areas compared to the western countries. So, if you want to use western standard as a measure of how civilized a nation is, there is little doubt Japan is ahead in the civilized level than China.

 

[godppgo]

I also want to make up is that a nation who become civilized more later, they may be more vital , also in a kind of way more close to our cruel aspects. for the survival selection is in a very cruel way while in prehisotry society. while chinese become partly civilized in 5BC , as recorded , at that time , japan still is not a country , but a place mixed with hunter groups and havent writing language belong to themself. That is my best way to explain the human atrocity in asia.

China was never a country until the late 1800s. In fact, there was never a country officially called "China" until the late 1800s. The word Chinese also doesn't exist until the late 1800s. The last so-called Chinese dynasty wasn't even ruled by the Chinese but by the Manchurians. If you could, put aside your chinese nationalistic thinking, read books on chinese history written by western authors. You will find out China isn't as a great nation as you were told back in school.

 

[4321go]

you black yourself~!!

*godppgo*.......................

 

[Mikawa Ossan]

godppgo, what exactly do you mean by the word "country"? Do you mean "nation-state" or something else? I'm curious.

 

[godppgo]

godppgo, what exactly do you mean by the word "country"? Do you mean "nation-state" or something else? I'm curious.

I would define a country as a nation-state. The history of China is a made up of a series of "empires" or "dynasties" which none of them used the word China(窶吮??ﾅ｡ﾂ?) as their empire's name. It's not until the collapse of the last dynasty Qin Dynasty(窶佚･ﾂ青ｴ窶凖ｩﾅ｡ﾂ?) that the concept of China(窶吮??ﾅ｡ﾂ?) and Chinese(窶吮??ﾅ｡ﾂ?ﾂ人) has came about. Chinese are made up of 50+ races and they used to call themselves by their races such as ﾅ?ﾂｿﾂ人(Han Jin), ﾅｸﾃ楪人(Manchurian). At present day, they are categorized as Chinese.