This just in: Japan free from blame!

[Index]

What atrocities ?

The atomic bombs were overkill. Whether one considers the dropping of an atomic bomb on civilians targets as an atrocity is admitedly debatable since the bombing of cities was nothing new, but the scale was different. Conventional bombs don't leave radioactive fallout either.

In any case, the U.S. had already firebombed and destroyed at least half of Japan's cities before dropping the bomb, which is why I think that the atom bomb was overkill. Obviously using Napalm on civilian targets wasn't considered an atrocity by the U.S. On the other hand, ex U.S. Secretary of Defence, Robert McNamara, who suggested the firebombing of Japan to General LeMay(who was in charge of the operation), believes that both he and LeMay would have been tried as war criminals had the allies lost the war.

At the same time, Japan was not only developing a Nuclear Program of its own, and a biological weapons program of its own but had already started building the means of delivering both.

Had these missions taken place ..... who would have committed an atrocity?

From this statement Sensuikan san, it's not clear whether you think the bomb was an atrocity or not. At the start of your post you asked "what atrocities", whereas here you suggest that if Japan had managed to develop the same technology and used it, it would have been an atrocity.

When the U.S. dropped the atom bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, they were a country engaged in a total war with Japan.

Yes they were, but is that relevant? War atrocities are exactly that-atrocities commited during war time. If what you say is relevant then the Germans could have washed their hands of their crimes using the same argument at Nuremberg.

 

[Hiroshi66]

Maciamo, how do you know I don't know what happened after World War II? Read my post correctly. The Japanese government of 2004 does not have indited war criminals in power. Koizumi was born during the war. And yes, many war criminals were released to help contain communism.

 

[bossel]

(– although, we do have ﾂ"holocaust deniersﾂ" in the West too! But we don't go around trying to start more conflict with Germany at the drop of a hat; enraged as we might feel).

Hmm, don't get your point here. Are you saying there are government-approved textbooks in Germany denying the Holocaust?

What atrocities ?

When the U.S. dropped the atom bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, they were a country engaged in a total war with Japan.

Bombing civilians is a war crime.
By speaking of total war you yourself equal the US to Nazi Germany.

BTW, AFAIK the Japanese nuclear weapons program was not much further than the German one. Hence not much of a threat to the US.

 

[Maciamo]

Maciamo, how do you know I don't know what happened after World War II? Read my post correctly. The Japanese government of 2004 does not have indited war criminals in power. Koizumi was born during the war. And yes, many war criminals were released to help contain communism.

The only fact the current party in power, the LDP, has endorsed class-A war criminals to represent it as the country's Prime Minister with Kishi is enough for the LDP to inherit the blame. Many of the people who elected Kishi at the top of their party are still alive and stil in politics now (or their children, like Koizumi). If you think there is no more dirty money stolen from Asian countries to finance the LDP (and keep it in power for the last 50 years), you should read Gold Warriors. A special fund worth billions of USD was created with the war loot to support the right-wing LDP throughout these years and until now. The US government's part of responsibility in organising this is very considerable. Everything is explained in the book. Read at least the review from the Japan Times.

 

[Shibuyaexpat]

Sensuikan San,

First, thank you for your well-thought and eloquent response. I fear that I have come across too aggressive, too overbearing in my opinions. Having said this, however, I feel compelled to clarify certain areas, which you have pointed out.

First, I agree with your statement that, as an observer of current events, we are more aware (try to be more aware) of the dynamics at play, than ﾂ"simply reading of such events long after they took place.ﾂ" However, your subsequent comments did not show the fruit borne from your past experiences. How did your memory of WW2, Vietnam or 9/11 help you to better understand what's currently happening with the anti-Japanese demonstrations, other than simply that ﾂ"Chinese people are currently overreacting and ﾂ'have it wrong'?ﾂ" You provide little in terms of the driving factors (other than textbooks) that have been building: Yasukuni shrine visits, island disputes, Taiwan-issue, etc. Instead, you take a very broad brush to the situation and simply try to write ﾂ"ENOUGH.ﾂ"

Now, for your response:

As for having to be part of the ﾂ"policy making teamﾂ" in order to make an observation or have an opinion? Is that not too strong a statement? If that is so ﾂ…. we might as well shut this forum down now !

My point was that, if in your past, you were more than a simple spectator—someone with ﾂ"insideﾂ" knowledge of what was happening behind the scenes—then, I could understand why you make reference to your past. Quite frankly, I don't see how ﾂ"your experienceﾂ" is any more valid than ﾂ"my researchﾂ" of past incidents.

With regard to:

What pee'd me off was when you repeated this qualification (after omitting mine...) as if you'd just coined it yourself! In an otherwise challenging and eloquent response ﾂ… the omission was a cheap (and easy) shot! But, what the heck! ﾂ….I would have probably done the same myself ﾂ….!

My apologies if it seemed that this was deliberate. I had originally kept that last portion in, however, after reviewing my final post (and for the sake of brevity), I thought it pertinent to highlight the specific comment to which I wished to reply.

I still stand by that latter decision as the ultimate point of your qualifying paragraph (the one I omitted) seemed to be:

But - should we really hold to ransom all members of a cultural group ... for crimes committed before they were born ?

This is a topic that has been discussed over and over again on this forum, and quite frankly, I think you miss the point of the anti-Japanese reactions. It's not that they're holding anyone to ransom. They're simply demanding an accurate recounting of what happened. Now before you go on about China's own precedence for accurate history, what about South Korea's, HKs' and Vietnam's similar call?

O.K. Is that really the case? If so – I'll buy it ! (– although, we do have ﾂ"holocaust deniersﾂ" in the West too! But we don't go around trying to start more conflict with Germany at the drop of a hat; enraged as we might feel).

Yes, there are ﾂ"holocaust deniersﾂ" in the West, but they are NOT part of Germany's governing body and Ministry of Education and so-called scholars with a revisionist slant (or at least, I don't think so) Of course, the West is not trying to start a conflict with Germany because Germany's not trying to reinvent its history. Frankly, the parallel you draw (loose as it is) is quite insulting because it relegates the reactions in the countries which are demonstration as flights of fancy.

(ﾂ….and ﾂ"get over itﾂ"? – review my post and yours – not my words, but your ownﾂ…!)

I hadn't quite mastered the hyper-text command for italics at this point so the quotes were the only device I could think of for emphasis (ALL CAPS seemed like I was shouting). Sorry for the confusion.

My own feeling is that, wether we like it or not, Japan (because she is Japan ﾂ…) has always been unlikely to apologize for her actions of the past. You know it; I know it; the Chinese know it; ﾂ…. The world knows it! It's not a good thing – but it is so!

It's interesting to note here, that Japanese are actually quite good at apologizing. They apologize for everything throughout the day. The word/phrase ﾂ"sumiasenﾂ" is just about the most over-used in the language, but at the end of the day, there's no real meaning behind it. AND THAT'S THE PROBLEM. Their (Japanese gov't) words are apologetic, but their actions are quite...shall we say,misleading ? (at best).

How long do we (they?) keep it up? Another half century? One Century? Two?

Asia's history is much longer than that of the West. Maybe we just let them duke it out for once, rather than playing biased referee. I know, in reality, this is highly impossible, but just a thought.

Must we keep a league table for past misdeeds ? Or should we just start to concentrate on wether our grandchildren have air to breathe and water to drink ﾂ….. or even enough space to stand shoulder-to-shoulder in ?

I think the latter is more important, but that's just my opinion. If the Chinese feel a certain way and the Japanese feel another way, let them (not the West) work it out.

 

[Hiroshi66]

I shall read that book, Maciamo.

 

[ralian]

I wonder if Japanese government apologise to Chinese government, will Chinese people forgive?

 

[Hiroshi66]

Who knows. Probably not. They may forgive, but they can't forget. It is a scar on Chinese history.

 

[adam.won]

But forgiveness is enough , e.g. like Germans did

 

[Hiroshi66]

That's true. But as far as I know, the Jews have never done this sort of thing. Have they?

 

[bossel]

the Jews have never done this sort of thing. Have they?

Have done what?

 

[PaulTB]

But as far as I know, the Jews have never done this sort of thing. Have they?

Time to read up on your Old Testament.

 

[Dream Time]

Who knows. Probably not. They may forgive, but they can't forget. It is a scar on Chinese history.

you don't expect people to 'forget' when their country lost millions of lives in an atrocity

yes, i can forgive, but not forget.

 

[adam.won]

Agreed

Agree 200%

 

[Hiroshi66]

Bossel ~ Have Jews ever protested in any country about their rights after the war in this manner? Oh, PaulTB, I didn't know that the Holocaust occured in ancient times! Wow! That's indeed a relevation!

DreamTime - that's what I just said, LOL. You have to disagree with me, so that even when you agree you have to reword what I said. Adam.won has to agree to. You guys are funny.

 

[Sensuikan San]

Sorry about yesterday, folks ! Was tied up with more pressing matters...however...

With regard to the debate between Shibuyaexpat and myself ﾂ….. I guess I'm (sort ofﾂ… ) conceding; inasmuch as I see no alternative but to ﾂ"beg to differﾂ" on roads to a conclusion to this matter – which seems to grow more serious each day. I totally agree with him in the observation that we may have to just wait and see how long they keep ﾂ"dukeing it outﾂ"!

I do so hope (and expect ﾂ…) that in finality ﾂ… the ﾂ"dukeing outﾂ" will not be too prolonged - or serious.

Now ! This Atom Bomb thing ﾂ….. ! ( I seem to have perturbed a few folks with that one, too ! – put it down to a bad week ﾂ… !)

Rather than get into the usual ﾂ"post-response-post- quote- debate-post –debate-quote ﾂ" thingﾂ… let me respond to my critics by simply posing a question. It must be a qualified question ﾂ… but here goes ﾂ….

You are in the position of being able to commit one of history's greatest atrocities (OK – I accept the terminology – because war is an atrocity unto itself, isn't it ?).


Your name is Harry Trueman, and you are the new President of the United States.

(and my qualification ? That's exactly Who you are !! It is 1945 ! You don't have any experience of ﾂ"The Cold Warﾂ", Korea, Vietnam or any other post-war event. You don't have much of a clue about radiation poisoning, long term effects of radiation vis-à-vis cancer, or even the power of the bloody bomb ! You've only been told about it – and seen a few grainy films showing the bang ! You are aware, on the other hand, that a handful of scientists involved in the research are opposed to its useﾂ….)


It is 1945:-

(Almost) the entire world has been engaged in the most heinous, violent war in history for the past 14 years? (China) six years(Europe) four years(U.S.A). People of all nations are being killed by the million on an ongoing basis. Whole cities have been destroyed totally, and untold millions of people have been displaced, lost their families, lost their homes, children, pets, dignity, self-worth, opportunities, careers, energy ﾂ…. even a reason to live ﾂ….

ﾂ…Thankfully, Germany has just been defeated. And in defeating Germany you have realized even greater horrors ﾂ… little resorts with names like Buchenwald, Belsen, Dachau, Treblinkaﾂ…. The only thing that now keeps this holocaust, this horror show going is Japan – not currently your favorite tourist attraction ! And just to make it worse, Japanﾂ…although undoubtedly doomed to defeatﾂ…is a most stubborn opponent !

Already, with the events in Okinawa, Kamikaze attacks, Kaiten attacks, and an almost inhuman ability to resist against all odds, Japan's stubborn resistance is taking an awful toll of human life and suffering of your own people and others.

The whole world is tiredﾂ…nay, exhausted. They've all had ENOUGH ! The average Chinese/Korean/Malayan/ Filipino/American/British/Australian/French/New Zealand ﾂ…. You name it citizen ﾂ….. just wants to ﾂ…. ﾂ"Kill Japsﾂ"

Now ﾂ… you're offered a weapon ﾂ… a marvelous new super-wonder-all killing-atomic toy ﾂ…

Which, couldﾂ….possibly ﾂ… bring the whole thing to a conclusionﾂ…fast !

All ya gotta do ﾂ… is use it ﾂ… !

Might be a little painful, but ﾂ… what the hell ﾂ…. It's no worse than Dresden, Berlin, Hamburg ﾂ…Tokyo ﾂ…ﾂ…what's one more – and it could be the last ! You won't have to send more Allied forces into the killing fields; the folks in Japanese occupied territory may not be subjugated for too much longer ﾂ… could be great !

ﾂ….but, by the way, for the time being ﾂ… we only have ﾂ…twoﾂ…!

You can end all this! ﾂ…..WHATTCHA GONNA DO ?

And – that's pretty much the way it was ﾂ…..That, ladies and gentlemen is "Total War" - not at all nice, is it ?

Atrocity ?

Did the guys who designed Buchenwald and Auschtwiz find themselves in the same situation as Harry Trueman ?

Did Japanese senior Military Officers in charge of the assault on Nanking find themselves in the same situation as Harry Trueman ?

I think not !

ﾂ….THAT'S how you define ﾂ"atrocityﾂ" – in wartime ﾂ…

Of course – war itself is a most damnable atrocity.

So ﾂ… what do you expect? ﾂ….rules? ﾂ… A referee ﾂ… ?

("Rules of warfare" must be one of the most oxymoronic terms in English ... !)

Regards,

ﾆ淡ﾆ停?｡ﾆ停?

 

[Index]

It's a matter of severity I'd say. Little Boy and Fat Man killed 70 000 in Hiroshima, 40 000 in Nagasaki. Double that again for those injured, plus around 40% of the cities destroyed. Add to that 100 000 in the first night of Tokyo firebombing plus the other 50% of Tokyo cities subsequently firebombed. Whilst different in scope and intent to something like German extermination of Jews, I'd still call that an atrocity or war crime-especially in light of the fact that the Japanese were ready to surrender (and were actually looking for a way out as early as July 1944). Truman and his advisors were aware of this before the bombs were dropped. Also, a part of the rationale for using those bombs was to intimidate Stalin, so it wasn't just a matter of defeating the stubborn Japanese, whichever way you look at it. Close to 350 000 dead by the 1950's as a direct result of those two bombs was an expensive and criminal price to pay to flex one's muscles in front of Stalin I'd say.

Anyway, my orignal post re. the U.S. apologizing to the Japan was not intended as a criticism of the U.S. as much as a comparative example in light of the issue of Japan apologizing to China (infact China relinquished it's demands for apologies and reparations in the 1970's as pointed out by Nanashi).

 

[Sensuikan San]

Sorry index ... But you haven't answered my question ...

You're Harry Trueman ...

It's 1945...

What do you do ...?

ﾆ淡ﾆ停?｡ﾆ停?

 

[Index]

Who knows Sensuikan San, difficult question. In light of what I've read about it, I think a diplomatic solution would have been possible though, so that's what I would have pursued, maybe using the threat of the bomb to make my offer more attractive if things weren't going too well.

 

[Sensuikan San]

Who knows Sensuikan San, difficult question. In light of what I've read about it, I think a diplomatic solution would have been possible though, so that's what I would have pursued, maybe using the threat of the bomb to make my offer more attractive if things weren't going too well.

The first possibly correct answer, folks !

Indeed - a difficult question !

The only problem is ... what could the diplomatic solution have been ?

That is now my second question ... !

Regards,

ﾆ淡ﾆ停?｡ﾆ停?

 

[Maciamo]

Sensuikan San, I agree on Truman's decision to drop the bombs. The A-bomb may be a fearsome invention, but it has prevented a higher and bloodier death toll in regular fighting, and later prevented the cold war to degenerate into an open war. What's more the total death toll for both Nagasaki and Hiroshima was lower about 100x lower than the total number of civilians killed by the Japanese around Asia. So it is a "measured atrocity", probably necessary to avoid more horrendous atrocities to happen.

We could also imagine that if the US had finally defeated Japan without using the A-bomb, the first use of the A-bomb in war would have been during the cold war between the US and Russia, when both of them would have had the bomb. The probability of an open nuclear war would have been higher, as nobody would have been sure of the destructive power and side-effects of the bombs, and therefore thought less about using it. So it could be that the example of Hiroshima and Nagasaki have prevented a subsequent worldwide nuclear holocaust.

 

[Index]

The first possibly correct answer, folks !

Indeed - a difficult question !

The only problem is ... what could the diplomatic solution have been ?

That is now my second question ... !

Regards,

ﾆ淡ﾆ停?｡ﾆ停?彈/QUOTE]

The diplomatic solution could have been peace since Japan was ready to surrender. The threat of using the atom bomb could then have been used as means to secure a satisfying agreement (whatever that means).

 

[Glenn]

Who knows Sensuikan San, difficult question. In light of what I've read about it, I think a diplomatic solution would have been possible though, so that's what I would have pursued, maybe using the threat of the bomb to make my offer more attractive if things weren't going too well.

I'm pretty sure that Truman did use the threat of the bomb, but the Japanese didn't believe him. If not, I blame my history teachers.

 

[ralian]

I hope that we can avoid the usage of atomic bomb on people permanently.
I've read this somewhere before, "we are like monkeys playing with matches. "
☝

 

[Dream Time]

had America not dropped the two bombs on Japan, Japan would have fought til the last man standing.