This just in: Japan free from blame!

[Eisuke]

Madam, you have missed the point of my post completely. It seems that you are firm in your resolve that I am against Japan apologizing. THat is not true. Japan should apologize. I just don't think its fair for Japan to be the good boy who always listens while other countries do things which are on the same level of brutality yet don't need to give an apology. Maciamo, your Tibet comment also caught my eye. The annexation of Tibet and brutalities against them are justified because Tibet invaded China before. This doesn't justify anything.

Maciamo, you're basically saying that if Country A invaded Country B in the 600s, Country B is justified to invade Country A more than a 1000 years later. I never mentioned comfort women. I mentioned rape - which there was - and looting, but I never mentioned comfort women.

My arguement here is that Japan is being forced to apologize for atrocities it has commited by a country which commits atrocities.

I agree with the statement of Hiroshi66.

 

[Hiroshi66]

Wow, Shibuyaexpat.

First of all, don't make wreckless conclusions. I was not online because I was busy with other affairs. I didn't see your topics.

Shibuyaexpat, sometimes apologies can't heal wounds. You really hurt my feelings and embaressed me in front of all the people who were reading this topic. For someone who is older than me (14 years) I think what you did was quite immature and rash. Your "apology" sort of seemed like an ideal Japanese apology. This seems like a Chinese response.

Putting these aside, I acknowledge your apology, and thanks for taking the high road. I too would have apologized for my comment "madam", but since this board doesn't have the option to view if members are male and female, and since I don't know you, I couldn't judge it. Please accept my apology. But on the other hand, you really hurt my feelings, and embaressed me. Political discussions should be refined to politics, not personal insults. I don't think saying "madam" was an insult if you were a female, but I apologize because I didn't know what gender you were.

Thank you, Eisuke.

 

[Shibuyaexpat]

I'm 14 years older than you? How would you know that? If you went to check my personal profile, my birthday isn't listed, but my gender is. hmm...
Regardless, let's call it even, and be done with it.

 

[Hiroshi66]

Nope. My topic said I was 14 years old, never did I say you were 14 years older than I. It may have seemed that way, but it was a typo. I'm not a psychic, so I wouldn't know.

Its funny that in a conversation of this calibre, we're really supposed to keep our insults and sarcastic comments to ourselves. hmm...

But I agree, let's call it even.

 

[Sensuikan San]

but all this talk abou Nazi's, Imperialist Japanese, and the westward moving native american killing Americans, seems a bit overdramatized to me. I genuinely feel compassion for all the victims of the above mentioned victims. That being said we (by we I mean the entire human race) have been commiting atrocities in the name of god, emperor, and just the hell of it for century on century. Maybe instead of trying to assign blame and decide who was worst of the bad we should be trying to see that it isn't happening now in places where we can maybe stop it. I am much more interested in hearing what our governments should be doing to stop modern day genocide then trying to figure out which government did the worse things 30 years before I was born.

Just my opinion.

I could be wrong.(My emphasis - Sensuikan San)

Not at all !

I think you are absolutely right !

... and it was this post ... in a page full of excellent, intelligent posts - all of which totally renewed my faith in younger folks today - which seemed to really 'nail' today's problems.

Please don't think of me as being a "know-it-all old fart" - but I am possibly the only person on this forum who was actually alive (albeit somewhat young ... !) during WWII - can even remember a few brief memories of it (insignificant though they might be...); can remember the aftermath very well; and remember The Korean War, Vietnam, "9-11" - you name it .... with alacrity. As a consequence, I have a particular interest in this current item of concern, and find myself quite troubled by it. I do not wish to offend by appearing to minimise past offences - but ....

....Notwithstanding the undoubted atrocities committed by Japanese troops in their long occupation of China during the 1930's and 40's, I do feel that the time has come when we can say that the Chinese people are currently overreacting and "have it wrong". I do not feel that they realise that they are merely repeating one of the great sins of humanity - not realising that the "fat lady has sung" ! It's all over !

This would appear to be one of the greatest "hang-ups" that we humans have, and the results can be seen all over the world, wether they be in Belfast, Baghdad, Jakarta, East L.A., Beijing ... anywhere...

I totally, and fully understand that, with WWII we are dealing with a fairly recent historical period, and that many (or at least, a fairly large number ...) of victims and perpetrators are still alive - which makes the problem a little more complex. In this regard, I do not consider time to be the "Universal Healer" - and I believe that all living War Criminals should be brought to justice, regardless of age. But - should we really hold to ransom all members of a cultural group ... for crimes committed before they were born ?

Should I really hold a demonstration in Oslo against Viking atrocities against my country ? (Actually ... No!... some of my ancestors were on "the other" side !)

Does it really matter if a Japanese history book isn't totally explicit on Japanese atrocities in the period in question ? I suspect that students interested in the subject will find out in other ways anyway ! ... and those not interested ... aren't going to give a damn ... any more than some American students could give a damn about the American Indian and his lot...or British students give a damn about the machine-gunning of hundreds of innocent spectators at Croke Park, Dublin, during an Irish Football game in 1920 .... or even British students give a damn about the many American Naval POW's kept in deplorable conditions near my own home town (in England) during the War of 1812 ! None of the history books I read at school gave much, if any mention of these matters ! (We, the British, seemed to be not too bothered about losing America - and certainly didn't commit atrocities in that country... or Ireland, South Africa (Where we invented the concentration camp ... and gave it a name ...!) ... or even, in earlier years, Scotland! It simply wouldn't have been cricket!

And ... since we're concerned with WWII ... we all know about the terrible sufferings of the Jewish people in Nazi Europe - but, does anybody give a damn about the sufferings of :

The Communists ?
The Socialists ?
The Insane ?
The Physically Challenged ?
The Gypsies ?
Soviet POW's ?
Homosexuals ?

When a militaristic group take power, atrocities will take place. They always have, and always will. It doesn't usually last forever.

Please, don't let's make it last forever ! I would suggest that the Chinese people sit down for a moment, look at their own post-war history, within their borders; look at Tibet, reflect, and check the strength of the glass in their own windows before they start chucking too many stones !

Let's move on.

Hopefully,

ﾆ淡ﾆ停?｡ﾆ停?

 

[Hiroshi66]

Sensuikan, very well said! The most intelligent post I have read at JREF. I must say. People like you are what the world needs. Thank you so much for your opinion.

 

[bossel]

we all know about the terrible sufferings of the Jewish people in Nazi Europe - but, does anybody give a damn about the sufferings of :

The Communists ?
The Socialists ?
The Insane ?
The Physically Challenged ?
The Gypsies ?
Soviet POW's ?
Homosexuals ?

Actually, yes, in Germany all those groups are remembered. Here, 27 January is the commemoration day for all Nazi victims. Jews may get the biggest attention in the media, but the other victims are not forgotten.

the Chinese people sit down for a moment, look at their own post-war history, within their borders; look at Tibet, reflect, and check the strength of the glass in their own windows before they start chucking too many stones !

It's not the Chinese people who throw stones. Perhaps we should not forget that it's a tiny minority. Tens of thousands, yeah, but out of 1.3 billion.

 

[Hiroshi66]

It's not the Japanese people who massacred Chinese civilians. Perhaps we should not forget that its a tiny minority. The Japanese ARMY, not the Japanese people. Who is rewriting the textbooks? The Japanese RIGHT-WING SCHOLARS, not the Japanese people.

 

[bossel]

It's not the Japanese people who massacred Chinese civilians. Perhaps we should not forget that its a tiny minority. The Japanese ARMY, not the Japanese people. Who is rewriting the textbooks? The Japanese RIGHT-WING SCHOLARS, not the Japanese people.

Did I say it's the Japanese people? You sound like a f... revisionist.
The Japanese government was responsible for the atrocities, the Japanese government is responsible for the textbook issue.

 

[Hiroshi66]

F..? Interesting that you are an advisor yet you cannot have a civilized conversation without swearing. Tells me a lot.

The Japanese government of 1938 and the Japanese government of 2004 are two different governments. The 1938 government was that of the old Empire of Japan, this is the new LDP led coalition.

 

[Shibuyaexpat]

...Please don't think of me as being a "know-it-all old fart" - but I am possibly the only person on this forum who was actually alive (albeit somewhat young ... !) during WWII ...I do not wish to offend by appearing to minimise past offences - but ....

Pardon me if my comments seem harsh, but I don't see how any of this has any relevance? I've lived in a time where one saw the tearing down of the Berlin Wall, the Iran-Contra debacle, the Invasion of Panama and many more incidents. However, this does not make me an expert on these topics--merely a spectator. And while you have may certain viewpoints on these issues, most of what you and I saw or know (of our respective topics) about the past events is filtered information. And because we're spectators of this current event, I really don't understand how your particular past "experience" sheds any real light. Unless, of course, you actually happened to be personally infoved in all of those incidents you described (ie. part of the policy making team), then please dismiss my musings.

....Notwithstanding the undoubted atrocities committed ...the Chinese people are currently overreacting and "have it wrong". I do not feel that they realise that they are merely repeating one of the great sins of humanity - not realising that the "fat lady has sung" ! It's all over !

This would appear to be one of the greatest "hang-ups" that we humans have, and the results can be seen all over the world, wether they be in Belfast, Baghdad, Jakarta, East L.A., Beijing ... anywhere...

The fat lady has sung...FOR YOU, maybe, but that doesn't make it less real to those affected by the relatively immediate past. Your characterization recent events as "overreacting" on the part of Chinese people is akin to you telling the child of a murdered mother to "get over it! It's all over!"

Should I really hold a demonstration in Oslo against Viking atrocities against my country ? (Actually ... No!... some of my ancestors were on "the other" side !)

You're more than welcome to. Your decision not to is yours, and should not be validated by what you think that other people will respond to.

Does it really matter if a Japanese history book isn't totally explicit on Japanese atrocities in the period in question ? I suspect that students interested in the subject will find out in other ways anyway ! ... and those not interested ... aren't going to give a damn ... any more than some American students could give a damn about the American Indian and his lot...or British students give a damn about the machine-gunning of hundreds of innocent spectators at Croke Park, Dublin, during an Irish Football game in 1920 .... or even British students give a damn about the many American Naval POW's kept in deplorable conditions near my own home town (in England) during the War of 1812 ! None of the history books I read at school gave much, if any mention of these matters ! (We, the British, seemed to be not too bothered about losing America - and certainly didn't commit atrocities in that country... or Ireland, South Africa (Where we invented the concentration camp ... and gave it a name ...!) ... or even, in earlier years, Scotland! It simply wouldn't have been cricket!

First, there's a big difference between explicit and acknowledgement. The argument isn't whether or not they're providing ALL the details. The argument is that the textbooks are providing ANY details. How would American/British/Jewish/Canadian/etc public react if Germany published textbooks that tried to disavow the past by characterizing the Nazi regime's role in the early 20th century as that of "Savior of Europe;" that the Nazi regime sought to "liberate" the West from influence of the Jewish race? Now consider the fact that there are probably more Chinese people than all of the groups listed above, and then, you begin to understand the frustration.

Now let me be explicitedly clear on this: I, in now way or form, condone the attack on the Japanese businesses and civilians living in China. This is mob-mentality violence at its worst. There is absolutely no excuse for this.

Please, don't let's make it last forever ! I would suggest that the Chinese people sit down for a moment, look at their own post-war history, within their borders; look at Tibet, reflect, and check the strength of the glass in their own windows before they start chucking too many stones !

Let's move on.

Let me get this straight. You want the Chinese people to reflect on their post-war past when the Japanese won't even acknowledge theirs? The thrust of the recent campaigns is in reaction to Japanese politicians (via their tacit approval for these "educational" textbooks, written by fundamentalists "scholars") trying to euphamize Japan's historic past. If you remove China from the recent demonstrations, then what about those occuring in HK, S. Korea and Vietnam? Should they all just "get over it" too?

 

[Shibuyaexpat]

The Japanese government of 1938 and the Japanese government of 2004 are two different governments. The 1938 government was that of the old Empire of Japan, this is the new LDP led coalition.

How are they different? They seem more in line since the end of WW2. Can you please show me how you reached this conclusion?

 

[Shibuyaexpat]

F..? Interesting that you are an advisor yet you cannot have a civilized conversation without swearing. Tells me a lot.

I think he meant "fundamentalist." Judging from his other posts, bossel really seems to hate that word

 

[adam.won]

But: what about the million Han Chinese, Manchu, and Tibetians mercillesly (sp?) killed by the communist regime? That had nothing to do with Japan, so why isn't the PRC practicing what it preaches? They demand Koizumi not go to Yasukuni because it honors Tojo who killed innocent Chinese. Well, then why are there statues of Mao in Beijing? I thought he had killed innocent Chinese too. So why are they being hypocritical?

I am very curious about what you've said that you know Mao has killed millions of innocent Chinese. We'd like to get your evidence.

Also , I have to repeat that , for the civil killing , it's none of your business , Japanese. We didn't escape from the admitting our guilty of SUICIDE , we have expressed our guilty deeply, but for the foreign country people e.g. in Japan ,is it right to get into the other country and said : We think your country are not democrate enough and we are here to liberate you , then kill him?? We are not only angry but also feeling funny to hear that Japanese are the Savior of the Asia?!

Sorry ,Never free from blame.

 

[Shibuyaexpat]

Originally Posted by Hiroshi66
But: what about the million Han Chinese, Manchu, and Tibetians mercillesly (sp?) killed by the communist regime? That had nothing to do with Japan, so why isn't the PRC practicing what it preaches? They demand Koizumi not go to Yasukuni because it honors Tojo who killed innocent Chinese. Well, then why are there statues of Mao in Beijing? I thought he had killed innocent Chinese too. So why are they being hypocritical?

This really isn't a fair parallel to draw. If you're going to compare apples to apples, then consider this alternative:

- Chinese people/gov't point to Japan's unwillingness to acknowledge/ apologize for invading Okinawa and killing Ainu.
- Chinese President Hu Jintao visits a (hypothetical) memorial to dead Chinese generals that systematically killed Japanese civilians.

The fact is, there are memorials in Kagoshima/Kyusu Island that exalt the Shimazu daimyo, who was largely responsible for annexing Okinawa into Japan. Your "Mao statue" comment seems to be on equal footing with this.

 

[lolife]

Teaching such a (relative) glorification of modern history to future generations is real ugly, and I thought Japan were beyond such things. Guess not. But then again, I don't know what eg. Chinese schoolkids is taught about, say, the Tiananmen Square. Maybe the Chinese should also start protesting their own government for it's past. Same with many other events in their respective country. I do have a clue of what NK schoolkids is taught, though :frown:.

What it comes down to, is things like nationalism and fundamentalism. Us vs Them, and yada, yada. I hate it. And I don't believe there to be a greater threat to people in this world.

 

[bossel]

F..? Interesting that you are an advisor yet you cannot have a civilized conversation without swearing. Tells me a lot.

Civilised? Hmm, depends on the definition of civilised.
Swearwords are actually a nice tool to emphasise. Can't see your problem.

BTW, if you act like a revisionist, don't wonder if you are treated like a revisionist (esp. if some other revisionist got on my nerves before).

The Japanese government of 1938 and the Japanese government of 2004 are two different governments. The 1938 government was that of the old Empire of Japan, this is the new LDP led coalition.

Yep, the 1938 government is responsible for the atrocities.
The current government is responsible for downplaying these atrocities.

I think he meant "fundamentalist." Judging from his other posts, bossel really seems to hate that word

Well, you're right in a way: to me both f-words are synonymous.

 

[Hiroshi66]

Shibuya Expat ~ The 1938 government was fully equipped with a secret police and the army was in control. The 1938 government was racial and killed millions of Chinese, Koreans, and other Asians. The 2004 has not.

Bossel ~ Doesn't matter. As an advisor to the board you have to show control when you are talking to a member. I am a moderator and I would never even imply that I used a cuss word with another member. Doesn't matter if I'm wrong and you're right.

Adam Won ~ Huh?

 

[Maciamo]

The Japanese government of 1938 and the Japanese government of 2004 are two different governments. The 1938 government was that of the old Empire of Japan, this is the new LDP led coalition.

It looks like you really don't know much about what happened after WWII in Japan. I stongly recommend you the book Gold Warriors. You will see that many top Japanese politicians in the 1950's, 60's and even 70's were already at the government or worse, military officers, during WWII, but were allowed to stay in power by the Americans. For example, Kishi Nobusuke, who was LDP Prime Minister of Japan from 1957 to 1960, was a convincted class-A war criminal :

In 1935, he became one of the top officials involved in the industrial development of Manchukuo. Prime Minister Hideki Tojo, himself a veteran of the Manchurian campaign, appointed Kishi Minister of Commerce and Industry in 1941, and he held this position until Japan's surrender in 1945.

Until 1948, Kishi was imprisoned as a Class A war criminal. Unlike Tojo (and several other cabinet members), Kishi was never tried by the International Military Tribunal for the Far East. However, he stayed legally prohibited from entering public affairs because of the Allied occupation's purge of members of the old regime. When the purge was fully rescinded in 1952, Kishi decided to go into politics, and joined the new Democratic Party. In 1954, the Democratic Party and Liberal Party merged to elect Hatoyama Ichiro as the head of the new Liberal Democratic Party. Two prime ministers later, in 1957, Kishi was voted in following the resignation of the ailing Ishibashi Tanzan.

His brother Sato Eisuke was PM from 1964 to 1972, the longest term for any prime minster after WWII. More info on the WWII connection in post-war prime ministers here.

 

[Maciamo]

Does it really matter if a Japanese history book isn't totally explicit on Japanese atrocities in the period in question ? I suspect that students interested in the subject will find out in other ways anyway !

I was told by some Japanese that during their school days they skipped WWI altogether from the history classes. It was like if it never happened. Ah, yes, of course the US dropped A-bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki and occupied Japan for 7 years. But they already all know that. Recent history textbooks do not just play down such events as the Nanjing Massacre (saying onlay a few tens of thousands people died, when it was certainly between 100,000 and 200,000), but do not mention the tens of thousands of women forced into sexual slavery, or biological warfare expirements made on Chinese and Korean people and POW's. It's like if German textbooks (or other European textbooks) explained that Germany invaded this and that country but omitted to mention the concentration camps or the holocaust against the Jews, Rroma (or Roma), Sinti, the mentally or physically disabled, gay men and Jehovah's Witnesses.

 

[Maciamo]

- Chinese people/gov't point to Japan's unwillingness to acknowledge/ apologize for invading Okinawa and killing Ainu.
- Chinese President Hu Jintao visits a (hypothetical) memorial to dead Chinese generals that systematically killed Japanese civilians.

That's the kind of example I give to Japanese people who don't understand the importance of apologising. I tell them to imagine if in a soon future China invaded Japan now and killed over 10 million people (eg. the whole population of Tokyo), raped and tortured millions more, forced women into sexual slavery and experimented new biological weapons on a few thousands people. How would they feel about it ? Would they ever be able to forgive ? What would they tell their future children or grand-children about the Chinese ? What if China refused to apologise for its crimes, that nobody in the world really cared about the Japanese anymore, and Chinese history textbooks in 20 or 50 years from now tried to play down their war crimes. Every time the Japanese government asks China for a apology or to change its history textbooks, China replies that it's not 10 million people who died, but maybe 1 or 2 million. How would they feel about a government, which even 60 years after the events still does not want to face its past and try to downplay the scale of the atrocity or avoid a formal apology ?

Usually that makes them think a bit more.

 

[Index]

Did the U.S. apologize to Japan?

That's the kind of example I give to Japanese people who don't understand the importance of apologising. I tell them to imagine if in a soon future China invaded Japan now and killed over 10 million people (eg. the whole population of Tokyo), raped and tortured millions more, forced women into sexual slavery and experimented new biological weapons on a few thousands people. How would they feel about it ? Would they ever be able to forgive ? What would they tell their future children or grand-children about the Chinese ? What if China refused to apologise for its crimes, that nobody in the world really cared about the Japanese anymore, and Chinese history textbooks in 20 or 50 years from now tried to play down their war crimes. Every time the Japanese government asks China for a apology or to change its history textbooks, China replies that it's not 10 million people who died, but maybe 1 or 2 million. How would they feel about a government, which even 60 years after the events still does not want to face its past and try to downplay the scale of the atrocity or avoid a formal apology ?

Usually that makes them think a bit more.

In light of the attrocities perpetuated by the U.S. on Japan during world WW2 (substitute nuclear weapons for biological), perhaps Japan thinks that China should react the same way towards Japan, as Japan does to the U.S.

As an aside, it's a well known maxim that what is considered right or wrong, legal or illegal, is determined by whether you are on the winning or losing side.

 

[Index]

You will see that many top Japanese politicians in the 1950's, 60's and even 70's were already at the government or worse, military officers, during WWII, but were allowed to stay in power by the Americans. For example, Kishi Nobusuke, who was LDP Prime Minister of Japan from 1957 to 1960, was a convincted class-A war criminal :



His brother Sato Eisuke was PM from 1964 to 1972, the longest term for any prime minster after WWII. More info on the WWII connection in post-war prime ministers here.

The U.S. might be accountable for some of this as they encouraged right wing war criminals in government because of their fear of communism. Political and financial support was also given to right wing groups with organized crime links in order to act as strike breakers and anti-union 'activists', resulting in the deep embedded nature of the Yakuza in Japanese politics. It's not surprising that there is so much corruption in post WWII Japanese politics when one considers that it's very foundations are rotten.

 

[Sensuikan San]

My word ﾂ… !

I certainly took a whack over the head for that one, didn't I ? (I knew that avatar would become appropriate ... !)

ﾂ… and understandably so. Perhaps it would be incumbent upon me to review my posts more carefully in the future to avoid the misunderstandings that can take place – particularly when controversial and emotional subjects are to hand.

Let me just go over the content of the main response, and review it with my main comments.

Pardon me if my comments seem harsh, but I don't see how any of this has any relevance? I've lived in a time where one saw the tearing down of the Berlin Wall, the Iran-Contra debacle, the Invasion of Panama and many more incidents. However, this does not make me an expert on these topics--merely a spectator. And while you have may certain viewpoints on these issues, most of what you and I saw or know (of our respective topics) about the past events is filtered information. And because we're spectators of this current event, I really don't understand how your particular past "experience" sheds any real light. Unless, of course, you actually happened to be personally involved in all of those incidents you described (i.e. part of the policy making team), then please dismiss my musings.

Nope ! Not too harsh at all – no offence taken! ﾂ…. And I agree – but disagree!

You see, (..and I would think it obvious to mostﾂ…) I was not claiming to be an expert on anything, any more than – as you point out, are you ! Far from it. I was merely trying to establish that (in my opinion), experiencing events – even as an observer or spectator (which most of us always are ﾂ…) is far more enlightening than simply reading of such events long after they took place. From your own examples – I defy you to pronounce that, some day, you will not declare to your grandchildren ﾂ… ﾂ"Oh yes ﾂ… I remember that! It was like this ﾂ…..ﾂ" And, surely, observing history unfold before you allows you to more readily form opinions and observe ﾂ"the way the wind is blowingﾂ" with regard to current and future events. Just how else do we form our views and opinions?

As for having to be part of the ﾂ"policy making teamﾂ" in order to make an observation or have an opinion? Is that not too strong a statement? If that is so ﾂ…. we might as well shut this forum down now !

The fat lady has sung...FOR YOU, maybe, but that doesn't make it less real to those affected by the relatively immediate past. Your characterization recent events as "overreacting" on the part of Chinese people is akin to you telling the child of a murdered mother to "get over it! It's all over!"

With all respect, this was actually the only part of the response that really pee'd me off !

Not only was the analogy to the ﾂ"murdered motherﾂ" quite tasteless and repugnant to me (ﾂ…although, admittedly, given the subjectﾂ….strangely appropriateﾂ…), but you quoted me somewhat out of context by omitting my own qualification to that particular content of my post – to wit (and I highlight..)

I totally, and fully understand that, with WWII we are dealing with a fairly recent historical period, and that many (or at least, a fairly large number ...) of victims and perpetrators are still alive - which makes the problem a little more complex. In this regard, I do not consider time to be the "Universal Healer" - and I believe that all living War Criminals should be brought to justice, regardless of age. But - should we really hold to ransom all members of a cultural group ... for crimes committed before they were born?

I was, by this, implying that the very consideration upon which you remarked must be taken into consideration !

What pee'd me off was when you repeated this qualification (after omitting mine...) as if you'd just coined it yourself ! In an otherwise challenging and eloquent response ﾂ… the omission was a cheap (and easy) shot ! But, what the heck! ﾂ….I would have probably done the same myself ﾂ….!

First, there's a big difference between explicit and acknowledgement. The argument isn't whether or not they're providing ALL the details. The argument is that the textbooks are providing ANY details. How would American/British/Jewish/Canadian/etc public react if Germany published textbooks that tried to disavow the past by characterizing the Nazi regime's role in the early 20th century as that of "Savior of Europe;" that the Nazi regime sought to "liberate" the West from influence of the Jewish race? Now consider the fact that there are probably more Chinese people than all of the groups listed above, and then, you begin to understand the frustration.

O.K. Is that really the case? If so – I'll buy it ! (– although, we do have ﾂ"holocaust deniersﾂ" in the West too! But we don't go around trying to start more conflict with Germany at the drop of a hat; enraged as we might feel).

Let me get this straight. You want the Chinese people to reflect on their post-war past when the Japanese won't even acknowledge theirs? The thrust of the recent campaigns is in reaction to Japanese politicians (via their tacit approval for these "educational" textbooks, written by fundamentalists "scholars") trying to euphamize Japan's historic past. If you remove China from the recent demonstrations, then what about those occuring in HK, S. Korea and Vietnam? Should they all just "get over it" too?

I thought the opening sentence a little authoritarian. It offended me, I admit – just a little – but I've had worse ! (ﾂ….and ﾂ"get over itﾂ"? – review my post and yours – not my words, but your ownﾂ…!)

However, as much as I might agree with you with regard to Japanese politicians (and believe me – I do agree with you !) I do feel that pragmatism has to enter the argument somewhere.

What would you suggest ?

My own feeling is that, wether we like it or not, Japan (because she is Japan ﾂ…) has always been unlikely to apologize for her actions of the past. You know it; I know it; the Chinese know it; ﾂ…. The world knows it! It's not a good thing – but it is so!
With current events taking place as they are – I think that we can damn near guarantee it!

I now see that the Chinese Government is refusing to apologize to Japan ﾂ…. ﾂ"Tit for Tatﾂ", ﾂ"You-Meﾂ" ﾂ… off we go again ﾂ" ﾂ… and the music goes round and round ﾂ… and it comes out here ﾂ….ﾂ"

The world, now has another potential ﾂ"hot spotﾂ" – as if it didn't have enough already! It's all part of the human condition.

How long do we (they?) keep it up? Another half century? One Century? Two?

Must we keep a league table for past misdeeds ? Or should we just start to concentrate on wether our grandchildren have air to breathe and water to drink ﾂ….. or even enough space to stand shoulder-to-shoulder in ?

Should I go to Oslo?

With the greatest of respect for a forceful and erudite response (...which had me troubled all bloody day....!),

Regards,

ﾆ淡ﾆ停?｡ﾆ停?

 

[Sensuikan San]

In light of the attrocities perpetuated by the U.S. on Japan during world WW2..... (My deletion : Sensuikan San)

As an aside, it's a well known maxim that what is considered right or wrong, legal or illegal, is determined by whether you are on the winning or losing side.

What atrocities ?

When the U.S. dropped the atom bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, they were a country engaged in a total war with Japan.

At the same time, Japan was not only developing a Nuclear Program of its own, and a biological weapons program of its own but had already started building the means of delivering both.

I-400 class submarines (three of which were completed) were being considered quite seriously for and were almost prepared to carry out such missions against San Francisco, San Diego and Los Angeles.

Had these missions taken place ..... who would have committed an atrocity?

"Wollen sie haben Totalkrieg?"

Regards,

ﾆ淡ﾆ停?｡ﾆ停?