This just in: Japan free from blame!

[Mal]

Yes, but I didn't like the 9/11 attack on WTC being referred to as a "Kamikaze Attack" on the news. 9/11 was a terrorist attack designed to kill innocent civilians. Kamikaze pilots never did that.

Hmm, I find "kamikaze attack" to be a fairly accurate coloqualism to describe the method of conveyance of the mass death of the WTC destruction. You say the kamikaze never attacked an innocent, but isn't a soldier who is provoked to battle by aggression an innocent?

Don't get me wrong here, I'm not completely slamming you, but I see alot of relativism in this thread. People claiming that a specific act was "similar" to another act perpretrated by another party. This is a lie frankly. You cannot compare the acts of an aggressor to those who are defending themselves.

I agree with bossel in alot of ways, I think the germans are a bit over the top in their self incrimination - but damn it if its not hard to understand how it came about. I think this is a fundemental difference between the german people and the japanese people. The germans have always struck me as a people that actually fear warfare (with good reason). The japanese, not so much - sure you will get the lip service to "peace" if you are in the country, but the undercurrent of nationalism there is very strong. I don't know why really, the speculation always comes back to isolationism.

Perhaps Germany has succeeded in a lot of ways because of their geographical position. Surely I think its hard to imagine success of the EU without a willing German partner? Also, while we can see on television the German and French P.M.'s actually embracing each other, could we see the Japanese and Chinese (or Koreans) doing the same thing?

Anyway, I give the Germans a lot of credit. I think they did the hard thing and came through well on the other side. I don't think anyone in their right mind thinks that Germany has any desire other than to live peacefully with its neighbors. And really, isn't that what learning history is all about? To not repeat the mistakes of the past?

In my heart, I'm not sure the Japanese have learned the same lessons. It's a combination of things, the self-victimization, the revisionist history books, nationalist propaganda, etc.

For instance, there is a big difference between saying Germany (the nation) was a victim and Germany (the people) were victims. Average people are always victims in war, even soldiers are victims in a lot of ways. To me it seems that there is no such distinction in many Japanese minds. It seems that to them the nation and the people are the same. Maybe more Japanese bought into their Imperialism than Germans bought into Nazism?

Anyway, I almost think that there is sufficient cause to pound the Japanese over the head with these things, atleast until I stop seeing comments like this:

But is this fair? The PRC demands an apology for Nanjing. True, what happened in Nanjing was brutal, horrible, and disgusting. But: what about the million Han Chinese, Manchu, and Tibetians mercillesly (sp?) killed by the communist regime? That had nothing to do with Japan, so why isn't the PRC practicing what it preaches? They demand Koizumi not go to Yasukuni because it honors Tojo who killed innocent Chinese. Well, then why are there statues of Mao in Beijing? I thought he had killed innocent Chinese too. So why are they being hypocritical?

The point of the matter is not that they are being hypocritical. If a neighbor ruthlessly beats his children, and one day you decide you too shall ruthlessly beat his children. If you come to your senses should you not atleast apologize to the children? If you do not, aren't the children both doublely wronged?

Waiting for everyone else to "do the right thing" before you can show any courage yourself is a poor way to live life.

 

[lv426]

Some good points here, I see what you meen about kamakazi, they only realy attacked other army people or ships. Germany know the war was a bad idear, their media attack anyone who shows a slight resembalance to anything Nazish even if their not. Germany is a good example of media panic and group following, Hitlers speaches were so powerful and persuasive that nobody realy questioned them and followed him blindly into an unjust war.

 

[Leroy_Brown]

Arigatou gozaimasu, Leroy-san!

Hiroshi-san,

Another thing, should the communist North Korean regime ever fall and the Korean peninsula unite, like Germany, do you think the S. Koreans would keep insisting that the former communists publicly acknowledge and apologize for the hell and destruction they've brought to the Korean people? Or why not insist that they apologize now?

 

[Leroy_Brown]

Mal,

I said innocent CIVILIANs. Did I say innocent soldiers?

Also, many compared the 9/11 attack to Pearl Harbor. That was unfair.

If the Japanese wanted to be terrorists and kill thousands of innocent CIVILIANS, they could've just attacked downtown Honolulu. But they attacked a military base. They were no Al Quaida.

 

[Hiroshi66]

Agreed with Leroy.

So basically, if Japan apologizes, will China apologize to its people?

The former communists should be tried as war criminals before all else.

 

[Shibuyaexpat]

Wow. There have been a lot of good comments on both sides. (Sorry for the absentness. I was in the hospital, recovering from surgery and am still getting my bearings.)

I forget who replied to my comment on the Korean monument in the Hiroshima park, but my point was that there is not a monument erected by the Japanese gov't for the Korean laborers who died there. The current monument was funded by Koreans living in Japan, and only have some hard-petitioning was it eventually brought into the Park area (before it was outside the park limits).

But in the end, i guess none of this matters. From comments here and from discussions with Japanese acquaintances, I've resigned myself to the fact that the Japanese people are entitled to their nationalism as much as the next country. And the only thing that I can do as a citizen of the world that disagrees with its policies is to either accept that fact or do my part in opposition. Therefore, as of last Monday, I handed in my resignation of the company that i work for and am returning State side. A bit extreme, but I have to follow my conscience.

 

[Shibuyaexpat]

So basically, if Japan apologizes, will China apologize to its people?

The former communists should be tried as war criminals before all else.

Waiting for everyone else to "do the right thing" before you can show any courage yourself is a poor way to live life.

Nuff said.

 

[Shibuyaexpat]

If the Japanese wanted to be terrorists and kill thousands of innocent CIVILIANS, they could've just attacked downtown Honolulu. But they attacked a military base. They were no Al Quaida.

I realize that you were connecting the incident to 9/11 but i guess Japanese targetin civilian targets in China before Pearl Harbor doesn't count because they're just Chinese right? After all, there's millions of them so a few hundred thousand really doesn't make a difference.

 

[Maciamo]

And though I feel to a small degree--whether through some quasi-sense of heritage (Korean descent) or cosmic justice--that Japan "got what it deserved,"
...
Normally, I would not dive into such a diatribe but a recent trip to Hiroshima, anecdotal commentary from local residents and view points expressed by some colleagues, have me wondering if Japan feels compassion for war victims outside of Japan.

What do you think?

Japan got what it deserved ? A special treatment from the US that made it the second (and even briefly first) economic power in the world ? Oh, were you referring to Hiroshima and Nagasaki ? Well, maybe deserved, although the two bombs killed about 200,000 people (+100,000 in later years from cancer, etc.), but the Japanese killed about 100 times more people around Asia (12.5 million people in China alone, most of whom were civilians). The more I think about it, the more I feel that McArthur and his team must have got something big in return for forgiving such acts of barbarism so easily. The answer is maybe in the recent book Gold Warriors.

Do you think that Japan acted worse than Germany during WWII ?

 

[Shibuyaexpat]

Japan got what it deserved ? A special treatment from the US that made it the second (and even briefly first) economic power in the world ? Oh, were you referring to Hiroshima and Nagasaki ? Well, maybe deserved, although the two bombs killed about 200,000 people (+100,000 in later years from cancer, etc.), but the Japanese killed about 100 times more people around Asia (12.5 million people in China alone, most of whom were civilians). The more I think about it, the more I feel that McArthur and his team must have got something big in return for forgiving such acts of barbarism so easily. The answer is maybe in the recent book Gold Warriors.

Do you think that Japan acted worse than Germany during WWII ?

I'm not discounting the hard work that the Japanese did in rebuilding after WW2, but it simply amazes me the level of arrogance some Japanese have in their superiority! This country was absolutely devastated by the war and if it wasn't for the Korean and Vietnam conflicts (which brought in the foreign capital primarily from U.S.), the country would still be digging itself out of the effects. (Look at Germany! ). And like other historical references that don't add to a glorified picture of the Japanese identity, the U.S. involvement in enriching this country flies completely out the door.

 

[Hiroshi66]

That, my friend, is hypocrisy.

If the countries affected by Japanese occupational brutality (Korea, China, Taiwan, Vietnam, Singapore, Malaysia, Burma, Indonesia - Laos, Cambodia, and Thailand were occupied but were not brutalized - well the POW's there were) must get an apology for Japanese actions sixty years ago, why aren't the Chinese communists apologizing to their people for what they do everyday? Same with the North Korean government.

 

[Maciamo]

why aren't the Chinese communists apologizing to their people for what they do everyday? Same with the North Korean government.

How can a government be made to issue an official apology to its own people without falling apart ? The Chinese people have the right and power to rebel against their own government. If they don't, well, nobody is going to do it for them!

 

[Shibuyaexpat]

That, my friend, is hypocrisy.

If the countries affected by Japanese occupational brutality (Korea, China, Taiwan, Vietnam, Singapore, Malaysia, Burma, Indonesia - Laos, Cambodia, and Thailand were occupied but were not brutalized - well the POW's there were) must get an apology for Japanese actions sixty years ago, why aren't the Chinese communists apologizing to their people for what they do everyday? Same with the North Korean government.

You still don't get it do, you? If Japan wants to be regarded as a partner in the Asian region to its neighbors, it should take a step towards easing past tensions. Instead, the prevailing attitude seems to be "I won't act any better than you." Well, this would be fine, if the past aggressions weren't an issue, but they are.

After all this, I just realize the hell with it. let Japan simmer in its arrogance and stew in its pettiness--just don't go complaining when the rest of Asia starts stoning ALL the embassies.

 

[Hiroshi66]

Shibuyaexpat and Maciamo - if you substitute the word China where you wrote Japan in your above writings it would still make sense.

Japan should apologize. The issue is similar to this: a former yet proud bully is forced to apologize and change its ways, which it does. Nonetheless, a bully from the same class who has been harrassing students more recently is the one who makes that bully apologize while it continues to harass students.

 

[Maciamo]

Japan should apologize. The issue is similar to this: a former yet proud bully is forced to apologize and change its ways, which it does. Nonetheless, a bully from the same class who has been harrassing students more recently is the one who makes that bully apologize while it continues to harass students.

Can you compare a few students being harassed with millions of people raped and murdered and the country plundered of most of its historical treasures ? Please, try to compare what is comparable!

 

[Hiroshi66]

Interesting to point out that millions of people were raped and murdered and the country plundered of most of its historical treasures during the Great Leap Forward and the Cultural Revolution.

In history, people compare. I tried to compare it with the communists' actions in Tibet, but when that was deemed to be more legal than the Japanese occupation of China, I tried to change the comparison.

 

[Maciamo]

Interesting to point out that millions of people were raped and murdered and the country plundered of most of its historical treasures during the Great Leap Forward and the Cultural Revolution.

Remember we are talking about apologies from government to government, and that is would be impossible for China to apologise to itself. What's more Chinese people are not protesting to get apologies from their leaders, but from the Japanese.

I also haven't heard of mass rapes or comfort women during the Great Leap Forward and the Cultural Revolution. As for the plundering, the Chinese under Mao were stupid enough to destroy their heritage, but it was not stolen and is not kept by some leader('s family) in some hidden place nowadays. So they can't return it. Japan also foolishly destroy a good part of its historical heritage by itself, for the sake of the so-called modernisation. Well, they can blame themselves but it wouldn't make sense for the government to apologise to itself for that.

In history, people compare. I tried to compare it with the communists' actions in Tibet, but when that was deemed to be more legal than the Japanese occupation of China, I tried to change the comparison.

Tibet is still a valid argument. But Tibet also did some pretty bad things to China earlier in history, while China had not invaded Japan earlier.

 

[Shibuyaexpat]

Hiroshi66, it seems that you are firm in your resolve that Japan should not reconcile its past, and that's fine. We can spend the better part of this decade trying to convince each other with arguments for and against. I'm just pointing out that in the face of recent stirrings from China, Korea and HK, one would question why they are all targeted towards Japan (with the same theme). Now, easily, one can dismiss these rants as jealous pinings over Japan's current economic status in the global market, but to do so misses the point. I'm finished with this thread because it's so obvious that Japan would rather bury its head in the sand. I'm just saying, don't be so shocked when more students, more civilians and more countries mount the anti-Japan campaigns.

 

[Hiroshi66]

Madam, you have missed the point of my post completely. It seems that you are firm in your resolve that I am against Japan apologizing. THat is not true. Japan should apologize. I just don't think its fair for Japan to be the good boy who always listens while other countries do things which are on the same level of brutality yet don't need to give an apology. Maciamo, your Tibet comment also caught my eye. The annexation of Tibet and brutalities against them are justified because Tibet invaded China before. This doesn't justify anything.

Maciamo, you're basically saying that if Country A invaded Country B in the 600s, Country B is justified to invade Country A more than a 1000 years later. I never mentioned comfort women. I mentioned rape - which there was - and looting, but I never mentioned comfort women.

My arguement here is that Japan is being forced to apologize for atrocities it has commited by a country which commits atrocities.

 

[Shibuyaexpat]

....<sigh>....

 

[Hiroshi66]

Sigh? I'll take that as a No Comment.

 

[mangaman]

Hiroshi it seems you are arguing that two wrongs make a right.

I think the problem is leadership. No one has been able to stand up and transcend the barriers. It has been 60 years. Where is the Japanese leader that apologizes and makes a grand gesture? Where is the Chinese or Korean leader that says it is time to forgive and move on?

 

[Shibuyaexpat]

Sigh? I'll take that as a No Comment.

Sigh, as in, "it's fruitless to discuss things further with you."

 

[Shibuyaexpat]

Also, for clarificaiton's sake, I found your "madam" comment to be rather insulting because:
1) i'm a guy; and
2) if even i was a woman, your addressing someone in that manner in an online forum is rather rude

Even if there was no ill-will intended, the receiver of your commnet (Me) was rather offended by it. Of course, you being a "scholar of Japan," you would know the cultural nuances of imposing "discomfort" onto others...(rolleyes)

 

[Shibuyaexpat]

By your silence (and from your posts), Hiroshi66, I'll assume that you're not going to apologize until I apologize first. So, I'm sorry. No really, I really really am. I am so so sorry that words cannot describe my regret. Did I say regret? I meant that I acknowledge the past wrongs I have done and hope that you and I can move forward into a future of prosperous discussion.