Teaching myself Japanese. Help really appreciated.

[iwuvvleskaylee]

Like I said, it really comes down to your goal. I never said using slangs and talking/writing in casual Japanese (or any language) were wrong. What I am saying is that if you just did away with studying the proper form, you'd be setting a limit to the level of understanding you might have been able to gain otherwise not just about the language but about the whole culture. If I were to study a language, my goal would be to become fluent enough that I would be treated as an equal by the native speakers. That means I am able to use the TPO-appropriate language in any given situations. I would really hate my intelligence put into any doubt by the way I talk/write.

Though proper english isn't always prefered. If one of my friends in an instant messenger spoke to me with proper english (and i've actually have one that does that), it would seem really awkward. Even if i've only known them for 10 minutes. I guess Japanese is alot different in that sense. IMO, i'd sooner have my intellegence doubted by informal language than have it doubted by bad habit generated by incapability of identifying awkwardness...

When you see the mountain, you will notice the huge whitish-gray rocks of the body, which is called buttress, first. Those are mainly limestone. It is said to be upraised by activity of active fault. It is famous as a place to climb. The first time when I went there to climb the rock, I couldn't do because it rained. That is a bad memory.

The above was taken from a site where people correct the english of Japanese people in exchange for having their japanese corrected by Japanese people. Typos aside, most of those errors are due to lack of understanding brought on by the lack of constant informality during the learning process. "That is a bad memory" is proper english, but it's really awkward from a non-proper english point of view. It's a shame my browser went back a page and i lost all my corrections of the whole thing (this is only a part). I probably spent over 15 minutes correcting what you see right there.

I am repeating myself here but I really believe that you should learn the basics (the proper speech) first, THEN you venture off to find your own style.
Many beginners make the mistake of trying to imitate what they see/hear in places like Movies, Pop Songs, Internet Chatrooms/Message Boards... If someone wants to talk/write in Japanese laden with slangs and informal expressions, fine. It is her/his choice. I just hope that it is a choice made by someone who understands very well how it would sound and be perceived by others in that particular Time, Place & Occasion and NOT a choice made because there are no other choices, because that's the only way they know how to say it.

And that's why i feel it should be learned first. In english, you have an example of proper english. If you learn proper english and read a bunch of sites made by buisnesses, you aren't going to get a clue on the feeling of any words, therefor what you see above came from a person who is un-aware how awkward that last sentance really is. You gotta realize, the understanding of what's appropriate at what time comes from hearing it in it's proper context. If you speak formal english, you're limiting yourself to only hearing formal english, since that's how most people (at least of the ones i know) respond to formal english. However, you speak slang, even if horribly spoken, you should get a nice mix of both to get better with. What's proper but awkward with proper language comes from what's awkward with improper language. Usually, an apology explaining inability to speak the native language will be accepted for any offence resulting in improper usage. I for one, have always been more pleasent around some one who speaks in a way i don't like, when they admit that they are not from an english speaking country.

Anyway, i've probably pushed this too far and let feelings of methods of study get too deep into this topic.

 

[Kirakira1232]

If someone spoke to me politely or formally in english then I would not find the situation awkward at all. Even if it was a friend. There isnt anything wrong or awkward about being polite. If it is an english learner, as you get to know them better and they feel more comfortable their language in turn may become more casual. Its not something that you can "learn" right off.

However if someone used slang towards me improperly at the start my reaction might be different depending on the slang. It can often create confusion as well if your unaware that a particular slang word's meaning has changed. Slang is difficult to contain and suffice to say it is difficult to "teach". Slang. jargon, register...all of these change across generations and even between groups of people. Thats why you find it tends to be left out of textbooks. Slang is something you can only gain through experience in the country itself or interacting with people of the culture/language you are learning from. Even if saying something like "I'm sorry If I use any offensive language..." straight off at the start makes me think "Is he/she going to say something offensive?"

I'm teaching english as a second language myself at the moment and I tend to stay away from idioms and slang because its very overwhelming for a new learner. They need to know how to say things politely and neutrally first. Teaching them slang can be misleading if they dont even know how to say "please" first. As they become more comfortable with being polite...they will eventually start to make friends and I believe from their friends the slang will penetrate on its own. Your parents always taught you first to have good manners, its no different in learning a second language.

Slang isnt something you can create a book on...it chops and changes sometimes over a few months, a few years, maybe even a generation. I dont think it should be taught first because improper use of slang might cause much more awkwardness than if you were too polite. As you become more familiar with your friends, you can start to break down those barriers of politeness. Talking to a stranger like your familiar with them at the start can make things uncomfortable in Japanese.

Slang use is quite narrow situationally, its only really spoken to your good friends or those of your peer group. Polite language can really be spoken in a much wider context. Slang is something you learn from your peers eventually and no textbook or website can really accurately show you when and how you should use slang. Textbooks cannot teach slang because it cannot be taught, only experienced.