Jeebs, I'm away for a few weeks and the whole world blows up! I've read this entire thread and am not sure what people are even arguing. That the Okinawans were coerced into mass suicide by the Japanese military?
The Causes of War by Geoffrey Blainey
The Causes of Wars by Michael Howard
On the Origins of War and the Preservation of Peace by Donald Kagan
Greater minds than ours have pondered this.
what was american taught from history in school?
NOTHING
Ummm, no, it's just that most Americans don't remember what they learned in history. As an historian who actually taught two years of U.S. history, I can say that American students
do actually learn history.
Bucko said:
Obeika, you might want to reconsider your statement about suicide being the "cowards way out" when talking in relation to other cultures and other times. In Japan at that time, suicide was considered the most noble way to right your wrongs. Considering this culture, I can understand why it would be a fact that the soldiers gave the civilians grenades to suicide with.
I have to agree with you.
I must say that the attitude towards suicide in Western cultures and Japanese culture vary greatly. The Romans often committed suicide after military disasters, but not necessarily because of a sense of duty. Honor did play a part (Cato's suicide to prevent Caesar from showing him clemency was part honor, part snubbing Caesar). But there were a ton of minute little implications that really set the two apart.
As for <i>kamikaze</i>-style attacks and fighting to the last man, there definitely <i>is</i> a Western tradition of not surrendering, but it isn't universal, and mostly a personal choice on behalf of the units fighting to the last man. It is not something based on honor or duty, but more of a refusal to bend to another's will, ultimately being an expression of individuality. Westerners usually have the concept of living to fight another day, but when cornered, they have an occasional tendency to "come home with their shield or on it."
This reckless disregard for one's own life and eagerness to "die for one's country" helped to lose the war for Japan. Patton admonished his troops that "nobody ever won a war by dying for his country, but by making the other poor guy die for his." At Iwo Jima, for example, the Japanese troops who committed suicide or charged machine-gun nests recklessly pretty-much did the Marines' job for them.
Personnel are just as valuable as ordinance, materiel, and position, in warfare. If you don't have the personnel, you can't do anything with the other three. The Japanese <i>bushido</i> ideology didn't leave much room for a more practical understanding of warfare. They would over come their opponents because their enemy was barbaric, while they were civilized and honorable, and if they failed, it was because they didn't fight hard enough or weren't honorable enough, and were obligated to end their lives rather than learn from defeat.
A lot of this goes back to the whole "saving face" concept that is so prevalent in Japanese society.
That being said, I'll move on.
Bucko said:
I think you'll find that Westerners know more about Hiroshima and Nagasaki than incidents of Japanese brutalisation.
Actually, you are dead-on here. A vast number of Americans believe that the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were unforgivable crimes and are still angry that we did it. But only about an eighth of us know about Nanking or Dresden, or any other atrocities (with the exception of the Holocaust, that is).
I would dispute that. From my experience, the whole idea about Japanese people being in the dark about their WWII history is a myth. They are all taught about the atrocities at school, and it's frequently talked about in the mass media. The fact that people are trying to CHANGE the current textbooks would tell you that the CURRENT ones all talk about all these incidents.
They talk about it, but I still think that they down-play it severely.
caster51 said:
and US force should get out from Okinawa
I'll remember that when a few million Chinese reds invade Taiwan and try to grab dominancy in the Western Pacific, at your expense as well as ours.
it is as same as hiroshima, nagasaki...
at first ,it is true that american dropped a-bomd.
why this point is not made as big . Did they forget it?
Oh, it is made over here. There are millions of Americans who feel that Truman is a war criminal for dropping the bomb. As if Operation Downfall really would have been a better option.
And in other news...
Guys, can we please keep cooler heads? Man, it's a forum, and it is on t3h 1nt4rw3bbz0rz. I know the internet is
SERIOUS BUSINESS but try not to get so darn infuriated with each other. (And yes, I should practice what I preach, that's why I take breaks from here every so-often.)