Need a word or phrase translated?

[PaulTB]

how do you say "im going to sleep because im tired?"

眠いからもう寝るよ。

 

[Elizabeth]

Well, this is at least the third time that I've posted this, but sasete itadakimasu isn't so polite. It basically means "I'm going to do X and I don't care what you think about it."

It really does depend on the situation and verb in question. Situations of genuine permission-gathering do come up, such as asking for time off work (Yamesasete itadakimasenka, soutai sasete itadakimasenka). Even "Sasete kudasai" can come across as demanding or a front for polite refusals (kangaesasete kudasai). Both culturally and literally analogous to "please allow me to, may you be so kind as to allow...."

 

[Buntaro]

Eve,


"I'm going to sleep because I'm tired." is "Tsukarete iru no de, mou nemasu."

By the way, tsukarete iru is pronounced tsukareteru, with the accent on the "te" syllable, like tsukareTEru.

 

[Glenn]

I guess that could be one's way of interpreting it, but gramatically and technically speaking it could also mean ``Allow me to (receive the favour by) happyou-ing to you``.

Not from what I've learned. Here is what I've been taught: -te morau means that the speaker will get someone to do something for him. Otherwise, why would it exist, when there is already -te kureru? Now, sasete morau would be like saying, "I will get you to allow me to X." That isn't the same as "please allow me to X." If you really wanted to say that, then you could use sasete kudasai, which is grammatically closer. All that sasete itadakimasu is is a humble way of saying that you will get someone to allow you to do something, and it shows that you don't care what the listener wants.

This sentence is very often used with the verb shoukai suru, and when used in the sense ``私を紹介させていただきます窶?#12289;it means almost identical to English's "Allow me to introduce myself", which is a rather polite expression (as compared to something like "I am going to introduce myself" etc.)

As I said above, if you want to say "please allow me to introduce myself," then shoukai sasete kudasai would be better. Better than that would be making it a question, shoukai sasete kudasaimasen ka. Of course, if by saying "allow me to introduce myself" you mean that you are going to do it anyway, and the other person can't stop you, then shoukai sasete itadakimasu is perfect.

And if one pays attention to say, how announcers in Japanese tv shows or how OL ladies talk in keigo, the expression is used very frequently. Since announcers and OL ladies are trained to use polite keigo, I am sure that this expression that they use is not of the "not so polite" type of expression, wouldn't you think so?

Well, as the article states, the number of people who say it is increasing. Here is what I mean by "not so polite":

使役の「させる」と受益の「もらう」があり、相手の意志に関わらず自分のために実行する決意が感じられる。この不遜（ふそん）な言葉使いは、話者が本来表したいだろう謙譲と一致しない。我々が「させていただく」を聞いたときに不快になるのは、話し手の語法と意図に齟齬（そご）があるためである。試しに「させていただきます」を聞いたら「させてもらいます」に置き換えてみると良い。聞き手を無視した少し失礼な表現になるはずだ。ただし、相手の許可を得る場合や、相手の意志に反して何かを実行するときに使う「させていただく」はもちろん問題ない。「何と言おうと、やらせていただきます」と言うのはおかしくない。

This is what I was referring to. But hey, if it's gaining mass acceptance then I guess there's nothing that can be done about that. It just seems that the above makes more sense. And like I said before, why have both kureru and morau if they basically mean the same thing?

 

[Elizabeth]

Not from what I've learned. Here is what I've been taught: -te morau means that the speaker will get someone to do something for him. Otherwise, why would it exist, when there is already -te kureru? Now, sasete morau would be like saying, "I will get you to allow me to X." That isn't the same as "please allow me to X." If you really wanted to say that, then you could use sasete kudasai, which is grammatically closer. All that sasete itadakimasu is is a humble way of saying that you will get someone to allow you to do something, and it shows that you don't care what the listener wants.

Isn't itadakeru simply the polite form of morau ? Itadaite arigatou....., itadakimasenka.....are used all the time in relatively formal speech for asking to receive something. Kureru is not so much receiving per se, but much more conversational and emphasizes what the subject gave or can give.

 

[Glenn]

Isn't itadakeru simply the polite form of morau ? Itadaite arigatou....., itadakimasenka.....are used all the time in relatively formal speech for asking to receive something. Kureru is not so much receiving per se, but much more conversational and emphasizes what the subject gave or can give.

AFAIK, morau, when used as an auxiliary verb, means to get someone to do something for you, and kureru means for someone to do something for you. Perhaps I am wrong about that, and morau can also mean just recieving the favor. But then what would be the difference between kureru and morau in such an instance? Why say one over the other?

 

[Elizabeth]

AFAIK, morau, when used as an auxiliary verb, means to get someone to do something for you, and kureru means for someone to do something for you. Perhaps I am wrong about that, and morau can also mean just recieving the favor. But then what would be the difference between kureru and morau in such an instance? Why say one over the other?

Yes, both itadakeru and morau can mean to receive as well as ask for favors, one is simply more polite and the other more everyday common.

 

[Glenn]

Yes, both itadakeru and morau can mean to receive as well as ask for favors, one is simply more polite and the other more everyday common.

I understand that, but my question is about the difference between morau and kureru (or itadaku and kudasaru, or itadakimasu and kudasaimasu, whichever politeness level you prefer), especially when used as auxiliary verbs.

 

[Elizabeth]

I understand that, but my question is about the difference between morau and kureru (or itadaku and kudasaru, or itadakimasu and kudasaimasu, whichever politeness level you prefer), especially when used as auxiliary verbs.

OK, well, I never learned that there was much of a difference in preferred terms between auxiliary or modal and main verbs, but "I was given/received" type statements it's mostly a matter of emphasis I suppose and whether the giver is known and of my ingroup or not. If so, I generally use kureta (For instance : XXXga okutte kureta hon). In other cases, kuremasenka is more casual and friendly in asking for favors, moraimashitaka? of course can only be used when asking the recipient whether they received something, although I usually go with uketorimashitaka? There are probably a variety other differences we'll think of later. Until then this thread will have to fill in any remaining gaps. :emoji_stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:

Difference between ageru, kureru and morau... | Japan Forum

 

[Buntaro]

Wow, this thread has had 10,000 hits. We must be doing something right!

This would be a good time for all of us to pause, think about how far we have come, what the future will bring, and how we can continue to help the students who are beginning to learn Japanese.





Yoroshiku!

 

[nhk9]

Not from what I've learned. Here is what I've been taught: -te morau means that the speaker will get someone to do something for him. Otherwise, why would it exist, when there is already -te kureru? Now, sasete morau would be like saying, "I will get you to allow me to X." That isn't the same as "please allow me to X." If you really wanted to say that, then you could use sasete kudasai, which is grammatically closer. All that sasete itadakimasu is is a humble way of saying that you will get someone to allow you to do something, and it shows that you don't care what the listener wants.



As I said above, if you want to say "please allow me to introduce myself," then shoukai sasete kudasai would be better. Better than that would be making it a question, shoukai sasete kudasaimasen ka. Of course, if by saying "allow me to introduce myself" you mean that you are going to do it anyway, and the other person can't stop you, then shoukai sasete itadakimasu is perfect.



Well, as the article states, the number of people who say it is increasing. Here is what I mean by "not so polite":



This is what I was referring to. But hey, if it's gaining mass acceptance then I guess there's nothing that can be done about that. It just seems that the above makes more sense. And like I said before, why have both kureru and morau if they basically mean the same thing?

I see that you have indeed a good Japanese language background, but perhaps you didn't learn the usage of this type of kanyou hyougen.

Well first, since you brought up the -morau/-kureru difference, I will try to explain the primary difference. The difference in the two is the placement of the subject of the sentence.

For example:
私が彼女にアパートを探してもらった
彼女が私にアパートをさしてくれた

In the first example example, the subject of the sentence is watashi, whereas the second sample`s subject is kanojo. Both mean practically the same thing, however, the subject of the sentences differ, and that`s primary difference. Another difference lies in the fact that when using morau, the person receiving and the person giving can be anybody, however, when using kureru, it must be the case that whoever is receiving the favour must be of 窶掣our side" (ie. uchi no hitotachi in uchi-soto relationship)

Now back to sasete itadakimasu. I could say with good confidence that it does not mean "I will get you to allow me to X." Instead, it means "Allow me to receive this favour by doing X". In very most cases in using "sasete itadakimasu", the person who is doing "saseru" is the aite, not you. I think you thought earlier that the person "saseru" is yourself, hence you would follow that logic and think that I am "forcing" the person to do X as a favour for myself.

Let see this simple example

食べさせていただきます

When you hear that, it does not mean `it`s a favour for me making you eat`. Rather, it has the nuance of `your act of forcing me to eat is a favour to me`. In otherwords, the latter would mean something close to `Allow me to eat`

And also, the difference between sasete itadakimasu and sasete kudasai are not too difficult to point out. Use shoukai (introduce) for example.

If you say `Shoukai sasete itadakimasu`, it means `Allow me to introduce...` and you continue with your speech. This is still very humble and polite compared to something as `Shoukai shimasu` (I will introduce... or I introduce...)

If you say `Shoukai sasete kudasai`, it is more of asking and urging for permission, and because of this nature, in many cases it could not be used as a substitute for sasete itadakimasu. It would mean `Please allow me introduce...`, but afterwords, you would have to wait for a response from aite. If the answer is `yes, go ahead`, then you continue with your speech. In otherwords, for someone like an announcer, this practice is impractical since you would have to ask the audience to say yes everytime the announcer is trying to introduce a new singer to the stage.

You use sasete kudasai more often than sasete itadakimasu when you want to receive some favour by others (and wanting their response)...such as, Allow me to take this test tomorrow

(明日しけんをうけさせてください）, in this case, you are urging perhaps your teacher to do this favour to you, so it is more appropriate to say sasetekudasai than sasete itadakimasu. (However, it is even more suitable to say 試験を受けさせていただきませんか or the super polite 試験を受けさせていただいては差し支えないでございましょうか)

In conclusion, I would say that both kudasai and itadakimasu has their unique advantages, and it is up to the speaker to decide which is more appropriate depending on the situation.

I am sure the morau/kureru difference is in the level 3 jlpt, and if you are not sure about that, books for the level 3 preparation is very useful. sasete itadakimasu is level 2, so it is probably a bit harder, one would think.

 

[wakaP]

こんにちわWakaP!。

英語を母語として話す人には。。。

例１）失言でひどく侮辱を受けた。→これは理解しやすいと思います。
例２）失言でひどく失望しました。→どんなときに使うのかかなり情緒的な表現では想像が難しいですね。でも日本人はこういう表現をときどきします。 直訳では意味を成さないこともありますね。

「失望」の理解がポイントですね。
「キミには失望した」の直訳は I was disappointed at youあるいはyou disappointed meですが，
この英文に，相手を非難したり，相手に対する怒りを表現したりする感じ(nuance?)はありますか？

Sashiagemasu at least still retains it's politeness quotiant (hasn't been overused to the point of banality ) for when you really need it, in giving to your superiors. Although I'm not sure it should still be used directly to the person getting benefitted or not :?

You're right.
And 差し上げます(sashiagemasu) is used directly to the person getting benefitted.

In the situation of giving to superiors, we can say
差し上げます(I would like to give it to you) or
お持ち（帰り）ください(You can take it) 。

====================

Yes, you're right, nhk9. But don't you know that there are also many peple who fed up with too many automatic (brainless)「させていただきます」「したいとおもいます」?
For me? I often shout 「させていただきますちゃうやろ，いたしますでエエんじゃ」 or 「したいとおもいますって言うな，しますって言えや！少しは頭使えやボケがぁ」at TV.

 

[PaulTB]

「失望」の理解がポイントですね。
「キミには失望した」の直訳は I was disappointed at youあるいはyou disappointed meですが，
この英文に，相手を非難したり，相手に対する怒りを表現したりする感じ(nuance?)はありますか？

Well it's not impossible by any means but I think generally not.

 

[Glenn]

Yes, you're right, nhk9. But don't you know that there are also many peple who fed up with too many automatic (brainless)「させていただきます」「したいとおもいます」?
For me? I often shout 「させていただきますちゃうやろ，いたしますでエエんじゃ」 or 「したいとおもいますって言うな，しますって言えや！少しは頭使えやボケがぁ」at TV.

Well, I guess that was what the article was about in the first place. Hmm, so it's only in certain situations when it is deemed inappropriate, or at least, not as appropriate as other phrases. At any rate, that was confusing, but I'm glad to have it at least cleared up a little bit. Of course I'll still have to look into this a bit further. Thanks, nhk9 and wakaP.

 

[Eve]

is this how u say good night everyone? oyasuminasai nanbitomo?

 

[wakaP]

is this how u say good night everyone? oyasuminasai nanbitomo?

Close, but it sounds odd. it would be 'minasan oyasumi nasai'

Well it's not impossible by any means but I think generally not.

そうすると，
When you are disappointed at someone, you'd better use 「残念」 instead of 「失望」
unless you want to strongly blame him/her.
ということが言えます。日本人とコミュニケーションを取る上で大事なことでしょうね。

 

[PaulTB]

When you are disappointed at someone, you'd better use 「残念」 instead of 「失望」
unless you want to strongly blame him/her.

Well I think ' I was disappointed at you' does imply a certain amount of blame because you the at you bit. If you just say "I was disappointed" then there quite likely isn't blame.

In any case I think there's a difference between being angry at someone and blaming them.

 

[wakaP]

Well I think ' I was disappointed at you' does imply a certain amount of blame because you the at you bit. If you just say "I was disappointed" then there quite likely isn't blame.

I see, especially thank you for the explanation of 'at you' part.

In any case I think there's a difference between being angry at someone and blaming them.

Umm, that's interesting for me. And I'd like to ask a question: Can you blame someone without being angry at them ? If the answer is yes, and would you explain the situation with some examples ? My point is whether I may understand the meaning of 'blame' as '非難する' or not.

 

[PaulTB]

Umm, that's interesting for me. And I'd like to ask a question: Can you blame someone without being angry at them ?

It's more a matter of degree than type. You can be annoyed or irritated at someone without being actually angry at them.

If the answer is yes, and would you explain the situation with some examples ?

Well to give an extreme example suppose my mum (as is not infrequently the case) is busy checking stuff on the Internet* and neglects cooking dinner so that the carrots are overcooked, soggy and tasteless.

I can blame her for having cooked a dubious dinner but that isn't enough to make me angry at her or even very annoyed.

My point is whether I may understand the meaning of 'blame' as '非難する' or not.

Well I would have thought so. It may be that you don't use it in more trivial cases, I wouldn't know.

* Here's hoping she never reads this

 

[blade_bltz]

I need some help with "tada". Any examples would be much appreciated...I can't find any right now but its been really bugging me. Thanks a lot!

 

[wakaP]

Thank you and your mother for the good example.
I also hope your mother not to read this thread.
If she read this, she might blame me for asking you for a example.
(Is this a natural use of 'blame' ?)

It's more a matter of degree than type. You can be annoyed or irritated at someone without being actually angry at them.

It's very interesting, but confusing.
Both 'annoyed' and 'irritated' can be translated as '怒っている'.
So, the sentense 'You can be annoyed.....without being actually angry at them.' could be 「あなたは実際には怒っていなくても、怒ることができる」 in Japanese.

I bought E-E dictionary (The pocket Oxford dictionary) and looked the words up in it.
angry: feeling, showing, or suggesting anger,
anger: extreme or passionate displeasure / make angry
annoy: anger or distress slightly
irritate: excite to anger; annoy
I see, I think I've understood that "it's a matter of degree" that you said.

As for '非難する', I understood that 'blame' was not so serious as 非難する.
In my opinion, '非難する' is a serious word and is not used in most usual cases.
'Blame' is explained as 'assign fault or responsibility to' in my E-E dictionary.
Acording in this explanation, 'blame someone for something' could be translate as 'somethingをsomeoneのせいにする、somethingはsomeoneが悪いと言う、somethingのことでsomeoneに文句を言う'.
But now, what should I say when I want to say '非難する' ?
I think the most appropriate English word for 非難する might be attack.
Any comments about this are welcome and thankful.

 

[PaulTB]

Thank you and your mother for the good example.
I also hope your mother not to read this thread.
If she read this, she might blame me for asking you for a example.
(Is this a natural use of 'blame' ?)

I think that is a natural use of 'blame' but she'd be much more likely to blame _me_ for choosing that example.

It's very interesting, but confusing.
Both 'annoyed' and 'irritated' can be translated as '怒っている'.
So, the sentense 'You can be annoyed.....without being actually angry at them.' could be 「あなたは実際には怒っていなくても、怒ることができる」 in Japanese.

I bought E-E dictionary (The pocket Oxford dictionary) and looked the words up in it.
angry: feeling, showing, or suggesting anger,
anger: extreme or passionate displeasure / make angry
annoy: anger or distress slightly
irritate: excite to anger; annoy
I see, I think I've understood that "it's a matter of degree" that you said.

As for '非難する', I understood that 'blame' was not so serious as 非難する.
In my opinion, '非難する' is a serious word and is not used in most usual cases.
'Blame' is explained as 'assign fault or responsibility to' in my E-E dictionary.
Acording in this explanation, 'blame someone for something' could be translate as 'somethingをsomeoneのせいにする、somethingはsomeoneが悪いと言う、somethingのことでsomeoneに文句を言う'.
But now, what should I say when I want to say '非難する' ?
I think the most appropriate English word for 非難する might be attack.

Well it looks to me as if 非難する is _more_ restricted in usage than 'blame' while '怒っている' is _less_ restricted in usage than angry.

So 非難する can still be translated as blame (just as 'irritated' can be translated as '怒っている'). Whether 'blame' is about a serious matter or about a trivial matter should be made clear by context and by tone of voice.

Also it is much more confrontational to say to someone that you blame them for something than it is just to think that they are to blame. It is at least likely to annoy someone if you say they are to blame for something even if it is a fairly trivial matter.

Hmm, well I hope that made things clearer rather than more confused.

=+-.-+=*=+-.-+=*=+-.-+=*=+-.-+=*=+-.-+=*=+-.-+=*=+-.-+=

I need some help with "tada". Any examples would be much appreciated...I can't find any right now but its been really bugging me. Thanks a lot!

Well one typical usage is 'for free'.

「アルコール類はただですか」「ご婦人方に限ります」
Are the drinks free? Only for ladies.

それはただでもらった。
I got it free.

Then it can be used to mean 'just to'

僕たちはゲームを楽しむためというよりただ暇をつぶすためにチェスをした。
We played chess not so much to enjoy the game as just to kill time

Finally there are a few phrases which use it ...
ただですまねえぞ！！
You won't get away with this!!
(Lit: This won't end for free.)

ただより高いものはない
There's nothing more costly than 'free'.

 

[wakaP]

Thank you very much for making the things clear.

Well it looks to me as if 非難する is _more_ restricted in usage than 'blame' while '怒っている' is _less_ restricted in usage than angry.

Your explanation was very helpful for me to understand 'blame',
but another question arose:
How is 'angry 'restricted in usage ?
As you said, '怒っている' is not much restricted in usage,
acctually, we can use '怒っている' in most situation (no matter what degree of one's displeasure).
At the same time, you said that 'angry' is more restricted in usage than '怒っている'.
Would you tell me the case in which 'angry' would be appropriate ?

Also it is much more confrontational to say to someone that you blame them for something than it is just to think that they are to blame. It is at least likely to annoy someone if you say they are to blame for something even if it is a fairly trivial matter.

This explanation much helped my understanding. I think this pattern (I mean the way of explanation or logic of the explanation) is very interesting and useful.
Is this logic (comparing the case of saying with the case of just thinking) generally (commonly) used in your country?

 

[PaulTB]

Is this logic (comparing the case of saying with the case of just thinking) generally (commonly) used in your country?

Lacking telepathy it's hard to be certain.
But I think it's far from unique to me, for example there's the situation where something happens and you look at someone and they say "Don't say it!" They think they know what you're thinking but for whatever reason they don't want it said.

Similarly there's "I won't say I told you so." when something goes wrong the way you predicted it would. Why not say it? It's obvious you're thinking it when you say "I won't say I told you so." but it's still more confrontational to say "I told you so." than it is to think "I told you so."

How is 'angry 'restricted in usage ?
As you said, '怒っている' is not much restricted in usage,
acctually, we can use '怒っている' in most situation (no matter what degree of one's displeasure).
At the same time, you said that 'angry' is more restricted in usage than '怒っている'.
Would you tell me the case in which 'angry' would be appropriate ?

[appropriate]"He knows better than that, he's just playing to the worst instincts of the public to get votes - that makes me so angry."
[generally not appropriate]"It makes me angry when people don't leave the attributions on from posts they quote text from." (here 'it annoys me' would be appropriate).

Obviously just when 'angry' is appropriate depends on how easily angered you are.

 

[wakaP]

Lacking telepathy it's hard to be certain.

Wow, what a silly I was! Shame on me!
But I think it is still useful ask the difference between saying the word and not saying the word in order to understand the practical meaning of a word. 負け惜しみじゃないよ。

[appropriate]"He knows better than that, he's just playing to the worst instincts of the public to get votes - that makes me so angry."
[generally not appropriate]"It makes me angry when people don't leave the attributions on from posts they quote text from." (here 'it annoys me' would be appropriate).

なるほど，angryは本当に怒っていることを表すようですね。
つまらないことで「I am angry」と言うと「なんだコイツは？」ということにもなりかねませんね。
このあたりは「非難する」と同じですね。つまらないことで「非難する」と
いうとやっぱり「なんだコイツは？」となりますからね。

angryを使う適切な状況は，確かに人の性質に依存しますね。ほんとにつまらないことでangryするヤツもいたりしますからね。
よく分かりました。ありがとうございました。