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Japan's Guilt

Halcyon

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I'm Chinese, but I don't really agree with jim83's logic (plus I didn't have the patience to read his long-*** thread). No, China is not a "better race" than Japan. Technically, we both belong to the mongoloid race and genetically speaking, the Japanese and Chinese people probably have more in common with each other than with anyone else. What a lot of Chinese people DO feel angry about, though, is the Japanese government's seeming lack of remorse for their wartime aggression towards China and other Asian countries. I know that many Japanese people probably do regret the actions of their ancestors, grandparents or great-grandparents, so I wouldn't lump them together with the likes of Junichiro Koizumi.

Yes, Japan needs to apologize and this need to be done with sincerity. Some people argue that Japan has already faced up to its past by having to confront with the anguish of their past and the harsh words of critics, but that's hardly an apology in the truest sense of the word. To this day, Prime Minister Koizumi still visits the Yasukuni Shrine, a memorial that honors the war dead and so-called "heroes" who, only decades ago, were responsible for the slaughter, torturing and sexual slavery of thousands and thousands of Chinese people as well as Korean, Philippinos, etc. I don't know about anyone else, but when a country thinks it's OK to worship soldiers who used to bayonet children, disembowel pregnant woman, rip out their unborn baby, subject innocent villagers to germ experimentation, hold public beheadings and bury people alive, you know that country is pretty screwed up. Japanese soldiers used to hold "contests" to see how many Chinese men they could behead. The last queen of Korea was allegedly sexually molested, raped and burnt alive. Sounds fun, eh? There's more but the gruesome details are making me vomit my lunch already. Christ, if I were Japanese, I'd bow my head in shame. If mass genocide like that is denounced and abhorred today, why aren't we making Japan "pay" for their crimes? When jim83 said "pay", I'd like to interpret that as apology and compensation as opposed to vengeful violence. I don't condone violence and I don't think that solves anything.

When all the Chinese football fans at Chongqing thought back to these memories, no wonder they pelted the Japanese fans with garbage and booed the Japanese anthem. Anger and violence are never solutions to a problem, but sometimes, they're justified. How would any country feel if an entire generation of their citizens were butchered and maimed? They'd be pretty pissed.

I know what some people are thinking though. "China doesn't exactly have the best reputation in the world, does it?" No, it does not. No country is perfect, but two wrongs don't make a right. Using Tibet, Taiwan and any other lame China issue as a counterargument is just lame. Tibet was annexed way before the 20th century, so it's not like China properly "invaded" them. In fact, the Chinese government have built roads, schools and whatnot for Tibet. They're free to practise their religion or follow their culture as long as they don't become subversive. Same with Taiwan. This whole Taiwan issue is such a joke. Taiwan has always belonged to the Chinese and always will be. Why do you think it's called the Republic of China? And yes, I know China's human rights record isn't exactly squeaky clean but I'll admit. China is a huge and complex country. Their government is easily provoked and very, VERY paranoid. After being trashed and screwed around by 8 foreign forces in the past (UK, US, Japan, Russia, France, Germany, Italy, etc), any country would be paranoid and jail anyone they suspect of being a "Han traitor". I acknowledge that China has many corrupt officials and its government may very well be corrupt, but again, none of this means that the Chinese people aren't entitled to an apology.

This leads me to another thing. The attitude of some Japanese scholars and historians is beyond belief. Some deny the "Chinese Holocause" ever happened. They say that those documentaries are fake, and that they never invaded China. The government has also made sure that their history books are whitewashed so that every last trace of their shameful past is wiped away. They don't want their younger generation to learn of their crimes, nor for them to know that their ancestors were a bunch of heartless savages. On that subject, they also say that the Pearl Harbor attack was not instigated by them. Talk about self-denial. If the past generation was savage, then the least the present generation can do is to stop acting like a bunch of cowards and acknowledge their responsibility. No wonder so many Japanese kids are utterly clueless about Japan's war crimes.

In order to understand WHY Japan could carry out such atrocities, it's important to understand their national traits. Back when Hirohito was Emperor in the Showa years, he was worshipped like a God. People today probably still treat the present emperor Akihito like a god as well, except he holds no political power. To a certain degree, the country did think of itself as superior. They considered all other Asians to be inferior and "subhuman", as one website puts it. They argued that the invasions were for the good of Asia, and saved us from Western colonialism. They envied the resources of China and of course, they probably had some inferiority complex due to the fact that China is geographically bigger than Japan. All this put together was just a slap on their national ego. Secondly, Japan is arguably more aggressive than any other Asian countries, probably due to the fact that they never took up Confucianism like the Chinese and Koreans did. Hence, Korea, despite being a smaller country, has always been peaceful and had friendly relations with China. Japan is a small country with big ambitions, and when that happened, tragedy struck for the rest of Asia.

In closing, the only way the Japanese people can atone for their sins is by making a formal and sincere apology to the countries they've invaded and occupied, to the families of the victims, and lastly, by offering a substantial amount of compensation to said families. To this day, people are still suffering. Bombs and stuff left behind by Japanese troops in WW2 that have remain unexploded are exploding now. Many people have had to be admitted into hospital for treatment as they're suffering some diseases akin to the Bubonic Plague. The media here in the West never reports it, but it's true. Some of the victims are now very old, so what can they be offered apart from financial compensation? What hope have they got?

Another thing..comfort women. As history indicates, many Asian women were enslaved and forced to have sex with Japanese soldiers in WW2. These women are now scarred forever, and when they brought their case to the Japanese high court, they were instead bribed with money, telling them that they would be paid a lot of money if they'd keep quiet. Is this the attitude of a country that is supposedly facing up to its past? What's a more respectful and dignified approach? To hide away in cowardice, or face up to the consequences and admit that you're wrong? I wouldn't have blamed the Japanese if they were to apologize and compensate. On the contrary, I'd figuratively pat them on the back for having the courage to own up. Yet, as some Japanophiles here may know, the Japanese are very afraid of "losing face". They don't want to hurt their national pride. They don't want to admit they were wrong. Saying "sorry" just doesn't get any harder than this.

Having said all this, you'd be amazed at how little I hate the Japanese. I know..that everyone makes mistakes. There's good and bad in every race and it's arguably unfair to hold an entire generation responsible for the shortcomings of their predecessors. I know that some Japanese feel remorse, and thankfully, some have even taken action to help the Chinese people gain an apology from the Japanese government. I always separate the bad from the good and when it comes to Japan, I prefer to judge its people by their individual merits rather than make sweeping generalizations. I still hope to visit Japan someday because I've always been interested in their culture. Japan is in some ways a wonderful country with a fascinating culture and some very hospitable people. They should be proud of this, and not always try to envy their neighbours or lap up Western trends like a dog would lap up water. Their war crimes has caused many wounds which, to this day, are still unhealed. Even those that have healed, leave behind scars that won't fade. But i think the Japanese people can speed up the healing process by offering an apology. I'm a Christian, and I believe nothing is more powerful than forgiveness and repentance.

The Japanese government, with one word, one gesture and one token of respect, can ease the sadness of many Asians whose minds are flooded with horrific memories whenever the word "Japan" is mentioned. They have the power to change things. It's only up to them whether they want the anger and violence to perpetuate, or if they want everlasting peace.

I'd really like feedback on what I've written, especially from Japanese people themselves if there are any on this forum. I'm a newbie (this is my first post lol) and guess what..? I'm a Japanophile too.
 
Do we really have to go through this again? Look at the following threads & you will find a lot of your post addressed:
Japan and WWII: Asian hegemony
japan and china gene advantage
Japan submissive towards China?
Japan China dispute over islands.

Don't know which media you use, but you will find it mentioned. Not big news necessarily, but if you look you'll find.

Tibet & Taiwan have been dealt with in the above threads, hence only this: Tibet was always autonomous in one way or another & Taiwan is called Republic of China because the GMD (KMT) made it their bastion to "reconquer" the mainland later. It hasn't always been a part of China, only some 200 years (I think) before it was occupied by Japan in 1895.
 

First; I would like to know who these Japanese scholars and historians are who have denied the "chinese holocaust." Have they written any books/ articles where their views are conveyed??? I doubt their writings are standard textbooks in Japanese schools.
Because I would like to know....I have studied history and taught history.

You say "some" Japanese scholars are deniers, that does not mean that every Japanese historian are deniers....In Germany we also find "some" Holocaust deniers...

About ignorance of some chapters of Japanese history among students of history is not entirely true...I was one myself. History is taught at the same level as other countries...I know of my experience....

I was just hurt by your points on the Japanese being ignorant of their "bad" past...because it is not true...students of history in Japan are taught about the Pearl Harbor attack in what historians call a VERY post-modern view: (i.e. who was to blame?): BOTH Japan and the US..and this view hardly puts the blame away from the Japanese....
 

I apologize if I caused offense. Pearl Harbor is one thing, Japan's aggression towards Asian country is another thing. I'd breath a sigh of relief if only I know students in Japan are learning all the things I mentioned in my first post. They need to watch those documentaries and listen to those eyewitness accounts in order to experience the tragedy.

Overall, Japan is a national in denial. Otherwise, why can't they just apologize to the Chinese and Koreans? Why won't they give compensations? All we want is an apology..is that too much to ask? By refusing to apologize, the Japanese government effectively denies their responsibility.

The Japanese media also did little to help the situation. Quote: "Cinema is often the last chapter of history for the public, and historians and Nanking eyewitnesses are appalled by Japan's popular film "Pride, an Instant in a Lifetime," which lionizes hanged war criminal General Hideki Tojo."


Abraham Cooper of the Simon Wiesenthal Center once said: "Japan cannot be trusted as a member of the community of nations until it once and for all, sincerely and genuinely, apologizes for its deeds during World War II -- beginning with Nanking."
 
I can see that it would help if Japan did apologise officially...but then again, I personally can't see why e.g. a government today should apologise "on behalf" of a militaristic government, which existed years ago....I agree that (and of course understand that) the Chinese people want an apology for e.g. the rape of Nanking, however, I believe that we should all look forward not thinking 24/7 on the grudges against one another, as the people responsible for the terrible deeds in Nanking and other events in history are either dead or not practicing this anymore...Japan HAS changed since....

To compare with Germany; Germany has not still written an official peace treaty, and German Nazi history among Germans was a huge taboo at least until the late 1960s-70s..Germans are today more open with their history, I agree on that, however, I believe that Japanese are in the progress...for the better; I myself and others are not ignorant of the Nanking massacre, and the various biological/germ experiences conducted on the Chinese during the war, but I find it hard that my colleagues, friends, etc...should apologise for this, as they did not take part....I know they can by speaking on behalf of the Nation in whole......maybe, sometime...
 

I've never experienced the atrocities, so I can't say first hand how the older Chinese generation are feeling, but I guess that when a crime has been perpetrated on one party by another, the victim's going to want justice. The apology and financial compensation are all part of a good gesture that Japan feels sorry for what they've done. If Japan would apologize to the rest of Asia for their misconduct in WW2, then maybe we'd feel that justice's been served.

I understand it seems "unfair" for Japan today, having to apologize and feel bad for what their grandparents did decades ago, but the Japanese people are direct descendents of soldiers who have committed horrific crimes throughout Asia. Some of these soldiers are still living today in old age. It's a stain on Japan's credibility, and that's why, no matter how unfair it seems, an apology should be given.

I don't believe in grudges either. That's why, the sooner the Japanese apologize, the better. Also, public Japanese figures such as Prime Minister Koizumi keeps on visiting the Yasukuni Shrine, where many Class A war criminals have been enshrined. That's just a sign that Japan's past deeds aren't too far from their minds, and that it's hard to overcome grudges when old wounds are continually re-opened.

Anyway, since you brought up Germany, I'm gonna use this analogy since Nazi Germany is a more popular topic in the West. Imagine if the Germans build a shrine to commemorate Nazi criminals (including Hitler) and Chancellor Schroeder pays a visit everywhere. Imagine if German textbooks have been revised to tell that the Holocaust never happened. Imagine if any women who might've been sexually harassed/raped by Nazi soldiers now sue the Germans, only to be bribed with money. How would the Jews feel? They'd be outraged - the same outrage that's felt by Chinese towards Japan.
 
*is drooling over desk*
oh sorry, i got as far as "i'm chinese" then i dozed off when i saw the enormous amount of text...

then the phrase "beating a dead horse" came to mind...

then i decided to break the flow of all these book-size posts by saying something completely irrelevant...

...Cheese.
 
Halcyon said:
Yasukuni Shrine, where many Class A war criminals have been enshrined. That's just a sign that Japan's past deeds aren't too far from their minds, and that it's hard to overcome grudges when old wounds are continually re-opened.
13 Class A war criminals, 1055 other convicted war criminals.

I think, even in Germany exist monuments which honour dead soldiers indiscriminately. Although, AFAIK, none actually name convicted war criminals (I may be wrong, though).


Imagine if any women who might've been sexually harassed/raped by Nazi soldiers now sue the Germans, only to be bribed with money. How would the Jews feel? They'd be outraged - the same outrage that's felt by Chinese towards Japan.
Why bribed? If they sue, they may win compensation. That's not bribery, but justice.
What do you think should happen? Exhume the perpetrators (most probably dead) & put their bones in jail? I don't see a better way than paying individual indemnities.

When it comes to general compensation, I think, in 1972 Mao made a deal with Japan that covered most (if not all) compensation issues. Hence individual claims are only possible if not covered by this.
 
"You sure do have accurate information on some subjects. Where do you find those information? Do you mind to give me the sites?"asked Site Seeking little Mackie :? :?
 
This quote of yours really upsets me having taught history and studied history: (highlighted in blue)

This is what I have been trying to tell you....We don't employ textbooks in schools written by what you call "holocaust deniers", or alternative revisionist historians....We don't learn about or teach students that Nanking never happened...
If you know of a textbook which conveys these kinds of histories, I would like to know, and you can tell me that title and author of the book...
 
bossel said:
Why bribed? If they sue, they may win compensation. That's not bribery, but justice.

Numerous lawsuits have been filed against the Japanese government by comfort women and few have yielded satisfactory results.






You might like to look up the Japanese historian Ienaga Saburo. Few Japanese textbooks today are hiding the truth thanks to people like him, but that's not to say there's been no attempt to sweep the dirt under the rug.

 
Hello Halcyon,

Thanks for the link. It was an interesting article. I know of the Ienega lawsuits.
Please don't misunderstand me: I am NOT trying to justify the actions of the Japanese army during WW2, and I am NOT trying to cover up anything.

What I am trying to do is telling you that the teaching of history in Japan is not the same as years ago. We don't teach "selective" history, and I don't want to be accused as doing so. Generalising the teaching of history in Japan to be covering up events is a serious accusation.
I have even discussed with Japanese students the personal life of Dr. Shiro Ishii (the head and founder of Unit 731) - this is not denial.

"The most widely used Japanese textbooks in the mid- and late-1990s contained references to the Nanjing Massacre, anti-Japanese resistance movements in Korea, forced suicide in Okinawa, comfort women, and Unit 731 (responsible for conducting medical experiments on prisoners of war)窶蚤ll issues raised in Ienaga's suits." [quotation from the article]

The manipulation of history by historians is dangerous, e.g. the works of David Irving on the Holocaust, and I am sure there are some Japanese historians who have a different opinion on e.g. the Nanking Massacre than me...however, I am sure it is a minority.

I still would like to know the Japanese historians you refer to who are denying some events in history. Have they written any articles for major periodicals? And if so, which?

You say you are Chinese, and from your points you seem to worry about that many Japanese students are ignorant of events in China during 1930-1945...please don't worry, not every scholar of history from Japan is a "denier."

 

As long as Japanese schoolchildren are taught the truth and nothing but the truth, everything's fine. I'm sure historians and scholars who deny WW2 events are no longer allowed to have an input into textbooks, yet it was a cause of concern for me since I've read articles that indicate it might've been so in the past. As for these articles, I came across them a few years so I can't remember where they're from. All I remember reading about is a certain Japanese historian/scholar named Watanabe who blatantly denied the atrocities. Then there's Akira Nakamura, a professor at some Japanese university (forgot the name) who went so far as to say it was the Chinese who massacred thousands of Japanese. The novelist Iris Chang later refuted his claims. Hopefully individuals like them are few and far inbetween, and will not influence Japan's youth in any shape or form.

No hard feelings, okay? Like I said, I'm not trying to depict Japanese people in general in a negative light. I like Japan, but I come from a family who feels very strongly about this. My mother is severely anti-Japan. I'm the least anti-Japan person in my family, and I've always tried to convince her that not all Japanese are so bad, but she has a time hard believing it. I'm of the younger generation, so I keep my mind open. I'm just very angry that Japan and China can't get along. It's ridiculous that two Asian countries like them..they're neighbours..with the same ancestors..similar culture..similar philosophies..can't get over it. The Diaoyu Island incident is just one of that many that tell me little progress has been made since the Second World War.
 
NO hard feelings... [look....I am smiling].

We both came up with some interesting points...there are some few historians who "deny"....I know, but I in fact along with my collegues in Japan belong to a "new", "post-revisionist", or "fresh" generation of teachers/scholars of history...(I am 25 years old). I am in Denmark at the moment though after few years UK.
 
remember_august said:
"You sure do have accurate information on some subjects. Where do you find those information? Do you mind to give me the sites?"asked Site Seeking little Mackie :? :?
Wikipedia is most often a good starting point.
 
How many of you have actually seen the textbook in question
and the 12 or so that are already being used in Japanese schools?
I went to school in several different countries including Japan,
and I can confidently say that the Japanese textbooks speak about its
past straightforwardly and our pacifist constitution is based on our
past.

Do the textbooks in Europe and US and Asia explain in explicit figures
that over 500,000 Japanese citizens were killed in the sweeping airbombs
"before" the A-bombs were dropped?, and that the Japan isles was pretty
much in ashes already? Forget about the instantaneous deaths caused by
the two A-bombs and the slow and painful death toll that almost doubled,
plus the chronic A-bomb sickening that is still so real.
We know the pain of war, and what it is like to be in a war.

All I can say is that our forefathers and us will always remember about
the war, that caused the world so much pain and misery, and I
apologize on behalf of our forefathers for the aggressions and moreover
for not being able to stop the war. I know so well that they still live with the remorse.

I have no direct ill feelings towards the Chinese students
that ralllied and threw tomtatoes and whatnots at the embassy etc.,
because I know that they are the victims of a centralized brainwashing
scheme that Jiang Zemin launched after the Tiananmen revolt in 1989.
A regular Japanese student can go to the bookstore and buy
a translated version of Iris Chang, or talk about the Japanese aggression
and listen to the free discussions on TV. The politicians, and not only
the Communist and the Socialist party regularly speak about these issues
on the media.

The real challenge is when those Chinese students become the central
generation of the Chinese economy and her foreign policies.
 
tarattara said:
How many of you have actually seen the textbook in question and the 12 or so that are already being used in Japanese schools?
Quite a few of us have seen parts of several text books (especially if you include translations) - given the various links, quotes and attachments posted in this forum.

If would be nice if the various links could be all put into one thread, be generally better organised and more information added.
 
Halcyon said:
I'm Chinese, but I don't really agree with jim83's logic (plus I didn't have the patience to read his long-*** thread).


Mr. China and korea, Show the evidences of belows,

Nanjing Incident
Comfort women
Dokuto is belonged to Korea

Do not reject Scientific researches.

We japanese are ready for proving your wrong with
historical and scientific researches and evidences
against your fabrication.

Never get away, Mr. China and korea.
 
Anthraquinone said:
Never get away, Mr. China and korea.
HUH? Get away from what? Please clarify. Man, you and urecco must have argument templates to simply cut and paste in threads like these.
 
Koizumi apologises?

The BBC tells us that Koizumi "apologised":

"In the past Japan through its colonial rule and aggression caused tremendous damage and suffering for the people of many countries, particularly those of Asian nations.

Japan squarely faces these facts of history in a spirit of humility."

No word about the textbooks? How does Japan squarely face the facts, if the government approves historical white-wash? Or did they make a spelling mistake: squarely instead of barely?
 
In the past, Germany along with other Europeans nations and the US, colonized numerous countries, but it is none of our business to talk about their apologies.
It bemuses me greatly that you are obviously stuck in your own fantasies regarding Japanese textbooks, and somewhere
even far out considering the Japanese attitude toward the war.
I suppose you don't even know that under the US and allied forces occupation, the basics of the Japanese eductional system 6-3-3 was drawn, and our textbooks along with every journalistc activity was checked and censored. Over 8000 inspectors were sent in for this purpose , and it was named by the GHQ as the WGIP (war guilt information programme)

Had the Japanese textbooks whitewashed our past as you claim, there would never have been the recovery of diplomatic relations between China and Japan in 1972. BTW, you should check the textbook in question before you even try to accuse us.
 
Last edited:
tarattara said:
BTW, you should check the textbook in question before you even try to accuse us.
And as we have said we have checked the textbook in question.

If you want to make comments about actual textbook contents (with quotes or pictures) I suggest you go to this thread.
 

Boy, you've got some f***ed-up ideas, but you know what
at the end of the day, this is really about the seat over the security council and energy-rights. Why is Germany suddenly accusing Japan, beats me! It'll take 50 to 100 years before China becomes a federal state-ruled country like the USA and til then, lots of awkward things'll happen you bet. China is 24 times Japan ( so is USA) in terms of size and 10 times in population. Without the stability and maturity of China, the Asian region will never enjoy stability. In the mean time the USA will enjoy the divide and rule policy she's so good at!
 
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