Japan IN Asia VS Japan AND Asia

bammbamm&pebbles · 27 Sep 2008

Eiji Oguma, an assistant professor of sociology at Keio University, said other parts of Asia have served as a convenient comparative backdrop for Japanese intellectuals to forge a distinct modern national identity.

"The view toward Asia has swayed between respect and contempt in the modern era, corresponding to Japan's position in international politics of the times," he said. "Asian countries have been a convenient tool for a Japan desperate for a strong national identity to offset its historical inferiority complex toward Western countries."

In his award-winning 1995 book, "The Myth of the Homogeneous Nation," Oguma argued that Japanese intellectuals have shifted their beliefs between emphasizing the distinctiveness of Japan's culture and its universal relevance as part of Asia.

The popular view regarding Japan's roots, according to Oguma, has tended to become more Asia-inclusive in times when Japan has challenged the hegemony of the West, such as the prewar period and during the asset-inflated bubble economy of the late 1980s.

grapefruit · 27 Sep 2008

Astroboy said:
So, you are telling your mix feeling about Japapn. You want Japan to be a part of "your Asia" but Japanese are neglecting. Carry on. Japan is always quiet and smiling.
Again, You feel something inferior against Japan, while Japanese don't feel anything. You better tell more straight "Please look at us" or something.
I've never heard about "saito-san". I think you are dreaming something.
Either way you cannot prove anything, but telling "Japan is the same as us or similar", while nobody think of that.

Too bad you are not into J-drama

Astroboy · 27 Sep 2008

Maybe ... our neighbouring countries have been facing more difficulties in their life, economy or politics. For such reasons, "some" from those countries begin to think of Japan, and thus "some" are tryig to involve Japan for their aims.

However, it looks quite different from the Japanese perspective. In short, "neglecting with smiles".

grapefruit · 27 Sep 2008

bammbamm&pebbles said:
Eiji Oguma, an assistant professor of sociology at Keio University, said other parts of Asia have served as a convenient comparative backdrop for Japanese intellectuals to forge a distinct modern national identity.
"The view toward Asia has swayed between respect and contempt in the modern era, corresponding to Japan's position in international politics of the times," he said. "Asian countries have been a convenient tool for a Japan desperate for a strong national identity to offset its historical inferiority complex toward Western countries."
In his award-winning 1995 book, "The Myth of the Homogeneous Nation," Oguma argued that Japanese intellectuals have shifted their beliefs between emphasizing the distinctiveness of Japan's culture and its universal relevance as part of Asia.
The popular view regarding Japan's roots, according to Oguma, has tended to become more Asia-inclusive in times when Japan has challenged the hegemony of the West, such as the prewar period and during the asset-inflated bubble economy of the late 1980s.

I see. So during the prewar period, it was "yamato damashii", Japanese spirit, and "nihonjin ron" during the bubble period. When the power of the country is peaked, Japanese boast their superiority, and when their power wanes, they urge corporation to their neighbors. Such behavior really appears opportunistic.

Astroboy · 27 Sep 2008

"The view toward Asia has swayed between respect and contempt in the modern era, corresponding to Japan's position in international politics of the times," he said. "Asian countries have been a convenient tool for a Japan desperate for a strong national identity to offset its historical inferiority complex toward Western countries."

It's a long time ago, isn't it? We are living in 21st century. It is not the time of Colonialism or Imperialism, but Globalization. No need to stick to Localization anymore.

Astroboy · 27 Sep 2008

grapefruit said:
I see. So during the prewar period, it was "yamato damashii", Japanese spirit, and "nihonjin ron" during the bubble period. When the power of the country is peaked, Japanese boast their superiority, and when their power wanes, they urge corporation to their neighbors. Such behavior really appears opportunistic.

Economic cooperation and integration is fine, and actually already integrated.
As far as it's beneficial, nobody objects. But the world economy is also intergrated. NO need to stick to Asia region.

grapefruit · 27 Sep 2008

Astroboy said:
It's a long time ago, isn't it? We are living in 21st century. It is not the time of Colonialism or Imperialism, but Globalization. No need to stick to Localization anymore.

The 80's is not that long time ago. (maybe it is.. Suddenly I feel old).

bammbamm&pebbles · 27 Sep 2008

Astroboy said:
NO need to stick to Asia region.

Then,why is Japan remain a member of APEC ?

The geopolitical reality ... Japan stepping up involvements in Pacific Asia & South Asia to counter challenge China's growing influence in recent years.

Asia-Pacific Economic Cooperation (APEC) formally proposed The East Asia Economic Caucus (EAEC) to exclude US Australia New Zealand Canada.Japan was the one-and-only Asian country refused participation,as I see it Japan is set to stay as political dwarf subjugated to the US on the international scene.

grapefruit · 27 Sep 2008

bammbamm&pebbles said:
Then,why is Japan remain a member of APEC ?
The geopolitical reality ... Japan stepping up involvements in Pacific Asia & South Asia to counter challenge China's growing influence in recent years.
Asia-Pacific Economic Cooperation (APEC) formally proposed The East Asia Economic Caucus (EAEC) to exclude US Australia New Zealand Canada.Japan was the one-and-only Asian country refused participation,as I see it Japan is set to stay as political dwarf subjugated to the US on the international scene.

Unfortunately, I heard that the organization is a joke, not bringing in any meaningful results.

bammbamm&pebbles · 27 Sep 2008

A note,there are Japanese discuss history.

Below are Japanese language forums where they debate subject issues.So,it's false that Japanese not interested in WW2 events.

日本領土竹島
極東軍事裁判
南京大虐殺論
大東亜戦争は侵略戦争だった?
靖国神社参拝

Astroboy · 27 Sep 2008

bammbamm&pebbles said:
Then,why is Japan remain a member of APEC ?
The geopolitical reality ... Japan stepping up involvements in Pacific Asia & South Asia to counter challenge China's growing influence in recent years.
Asia-Pacific Economic Cooperation (APEC) formally proposed The East Asia Economic Caucus (EAEC) to exclude US Australia New Zealand Canada.Japan was the one-and-only Asian country refused participation,as I see it Japan is set to stay as political dwarf subjugated to the US on the international scene.

It's a politics, isn't it?

And as Japan does not like to be a part of ASIAN only regional unit, Japan proposed to include USA, NZ, Australia, and India.

Maybe China wanted to establish ASIAN only regional bloc in order to estalish hegemony in the region, and Japan does not like such things.
I wonder why China didn't establish Asia Union excluding Japan. As I said, IF somebody wants to establish ASIAN only regional bloc, Please go ahead, but please do not call us.

grapefruit · 27 Sep 2008

Astroboy said:
Economic cooperation and integration is fine, and actually already integrated.
As far as it's beneficial, nobody objects. But the world economy is also intergrated. NO need to stick to Asia region.

So, is it viable to establish the Asian Union whose functions are limited to issues involving economic cooperation? So, are you saying, Japan CAN be part of Asia, as long as there are no political implications involved?

Astroboy said:
It's a politics, isn't it?
I wonder why China didn't establish Asia Union excluding Japan. As I said, IF somebody wants to establish ASIAN only regional bloc, Please go ahead, but please do not call us.

This is a very good point. I assume that was because China did not have a strong economy to start with. Definitely, China must have needed corporation from Japan to establish such an organization.

grapefruit · 27 Sep 2008

bammbamm&pebbles said:
A note,there are Japanese discuss history.
Below are Japanese language forums where they debate subject issues.So,it's false that Japanese not interested in WW2 events.
窶愿ｺ窶怒窶氾娯?忱窶處窶懌?｡
窶ｹﾃ俄?愬椎坦ﾅｽ窶督催吮?敖ｻ
窶愿ｬ窶ｹﾅｾ窶佚･窶ｹsﾅｽEﾋ彑
窶佚･窶愬塚?ｸﾂ静ｭ窶侏??堙債侵窶板ｪﾂ静ｭ窶侏??堋ｾ窶堙≫?堋ｽ?
窶禿ｵﾂ坂?伉神ﾅｽﾃ税ｽQ窶捍

Well, we all know that because, at least, Astroboy and I (and possibly you too?) are Japanese who care about history.

Astroboy · 27 Sep 2008

bammbamm&pebbles said:
A note,there are Japanese discuss history.
Below are Japanese forums where they debate subject issues.So,it's false that no Japanese interested in WW2 events.
窶愿ｺ窶怒窶氾娯?忱窶處窶懌?｡
窶ｹﾃ俄?愬椎坦ﾅｽ窶督催吮?敖ｻ
窶愿ｬ窶ｹﾅｾ窶佚･窶ｹsﾅｽEﾋ彑
窶佚･窶愬塚?ｸﾂ静ｭ窶侏??堙債侵窶板ｪﾂ静ｭ窶侏??堋ｾ窶堙≫?堋ｽ?
窶禿ｵﾂ坂?伉神ﾅｽﾃ税ｽQ窶捍

Until some 10 yeares ago, those subjects were not topical in Japan, I think.

But since then our neighbours began to intervene Japanese interpretation or spread fabricated hisotry, those subjects became more popular. In short, Unless our neighours did not intervene or fabriate history, probably noboy discuss such things even today.

Plus, such discussion about those subjects does not mean that Japan inetrvene history interpretation in those neighbours.

Astroboy · 27 Sep 2008

grapefruit said:
So, is it viable to establish the Asian Union whose functions are limited to issues involving economic cooperation? So, are you saying, Japan CAN be part of Asia, as long as there are no political implications involved?

Before answering, I must point out that Regional Bloc without political cooperation does not mean anything.

As I said, economy is already integrated or we can do business based on WTO rule or FTA country-by-country agreement.

What do you want more than economic cooperation?

grapefruit · 27 Sep 2008

Astroboy said:
Until some 10 yeares ago, those subjects were not topical in Japan, I think.
But since then our neighbours began to intervene Japanese interpretation or spread fabricated hisotry, those subjects became more popular. In short, Unless our neighours did not intervene or fabriate history, probably noboy discuss such things even today.
Plus, such discussion about those subjects does not mean that Japan inetrvene history interpretation in those neighbours.

Well Japanese people spread his own version of history too. For instance, "Perl Harbor Attack had been known by the Americans before the attack started." It's just they are not as good as their neighbors or the west. Japanese people are too gentle and bad at spreading propaganda (like they failed during WWII).

Astroboy said:
Before answering, I must point out that Regional Bloc without political cooperation does not mean anything.

Can you elaborate on that? If two countries can corporate economically without politically interfering each other, how come it is not attainable to expand the scope of such relationships to three or four countries?

Astroboy · 27 Sep 2008

grapefruit said:
Well Japanese people spread his own version of history too. For instance, "Perl Harbor Attack had been known by the Americans before the attack started." It's just they are not as good as their neighbors or the west. Japanese people are too gentle and bad at spreading propaganda (like they failed during WWII).

Then can you show any source proving that that was wrong?

Or better not discuss such things as such things better be left to the hands of historians. But One thing for sure is that Japanese do not intervene American's history interpretation.

grapefruit said:
Can you elaborate on that? If two countries can corporate economically without politically interfering each other, how come it is not attainable to expand the scope of such relationships to three or four countries?

In short, economic tie is more than enough, and if you want to deepen economic tie, better conclude FTA - a bilateral conomic tie.

grapefruit · 27 Sep 2008

Astroboy said:
Until some 10 yeares ago, those subjects were not topical in Japan, I think.
But since then our neighbours began to intervene Japanese interpretation or spread fabricated hisotry, those subjects became more popular. In short, Unless our neighours did not intervene or fabriate history, probably noboy discuss such things even today.
Plus, such discussion about those subjects does not mean that Japan inetrvene history interpretation in those neighbours.

Isn't it because our neighbors grew more powerful and Japan got weakened in relativistic terms? Such a shift in power might be a call for considering more corporation than holding a hawkish stance.

Astroboy · 27 Sep 2008

grapefruit said:
Isn't it because our neighbors grew more powerful and Japan got weakened in relativistic terms? Such a shift in power might be a call for considering more corporation than holding a hawkish stance.

So you mean Japan takes a hawkish stance? against neighbours?

Or the other way around?

Astroboy · 27 Sep 2008

grapefruit said:
Isn't it because our neighbors grew more powerful and Japan got weakened in relativistic terms?

IF they believe that they are more powerful, why don't they show their initiative to establish regional bloc, excluding Japan???

I said "Please do not look at us", but I never say "Please look at us".

grapefruit · 27 Sep 2008

Astroboy said:
Then can you show any source proving that that was wrong?

See, different versions of history are believed in different nations. Americans will flatly object to such a claim. Japanese do not have guts to challenge China and Korea because they are afraid of the damage to their economy. It is a legacy of Yoshida Doctrine.

Or better not discuss such things as such things better be left to the hands of historians. But One thing for sure is that Japanese do not intervene American's history interpretation.

In short, economic tie is more than enough, and if you want to deepen economic tie, better conclude FTA - a bilateral conomic tie.

So, are you agree with making a Asian Free Trade Association or some Free Trade regional organization?

grapefruit · 27 Sep 2008

Astroboy said:
So you mean Japan takes a hawkish stance? against neighbours?

Please take note of the use of the article. The phrase I wrote "considering more corporation than holding A hawkish stance" is different from "considering more corporation than holding THE hawkish stance". I'm not referring to THE current stance of the Japanese government. It's a hypothetical stance.

Or the other way around?

I believe the right wing stance is the same in all nations. I'm not saying the Korean and Chinese governments are not hawkish, of course they are.

Astroboy · 27 Sep 2008

grapefruit said:
See, different versions of history are believed in different nations. Americans will flatly object to such a claim. Japanese do not have guts to challenge China and Korea because they are afraid of the damage to their economy. It is a legacy of Yoshida Doctrine.

It's not a question of guts....unlike uncivilized our neighbours - being barking dogs.

So, are you agree with making a Asian Free Trade Association or some Free Trade regional organization?

As far as I know, it has been moving ahead. Japan already concluded EPA (more than FTA) with Thai, Indonesia, India, Singapore, maybe Vietnam. Regarding the rest of the countries, it will depend on negotiation, I think.
But of course NO POLITICS.

grapefruit · 27 Sep 2008

Astroboy said:
IF they believe that they are more powerful, why don't they show their initiative to establish regional bloc, excluding Japan???
I said "Please do not look at us", but I never say "Please look at us".

I did not say Japan got weaker than China and Korea. I said Japan got weaker than before in proportion to the gains of the neighbors.

Astroboy said:
It's not a question of guts....unlike uncivilized our neighbours - being barking dogs.
As far as I know, it has been moving ahead. Japan already concluded EPA (more than FTA) with Thai, Indonesia, India, Singapore, maybe Vietnam. Regarding the rest of the countries, it will depend on negotiation, I think.
But of course NO POLITICS.

That's great news. I totally support that.

Astroboy · 27 Sep 2008

grapefruit said:
I did not say Japan got weaker than China and Korea. I said Japan got weaker than before in proportion to the gains of the neighbors.

YOU are right as our neighbours have improved their eonomic strength.
This means GOOD to Japan as their purchasing power increased and Japan can export more to them. And Japanese exports are actually increasing to them.

Importance of North American market & EU has been decreasing. It is always good as Japan can decrease risks.

Japan IN Asia VS Japan AND Asia

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