Japan IN Asia VS Japan AND Asia

[Astroboy]

Is this racism ??? This is so-called troubles in foreign country, isn't it?
In my understanding.....racism is ..... "You are not allowed to enter as you are Japanese" or "I don't sell you this as you are Japanese" or "I don't employ you as you are ....."
Are there such cases?

 

[grapefruit]

Is this racism ??? This is so-called troubles in foreign country, isn't it?
In my understanding.....racism is ..... "You are not allowed to enter as you are Japanese" or "I don't sell you this as you are Japanese" or "I don't employ you as you are ....."
Are there such cases?

Racism can take a much subtler form than you think. Lots of my female Japanese colleagues, who have Caucasian husbands, say that Caucasian clerks, in particular females, treat them lightly when they go shopping by themselves. They say the clerk's attitude is totally different when they are with their husbands. It is striking that such things take place in Seattle, where I'm located. There are tons of Asians here.This is not due to a language barrier. Believe me their English is much better than mine.

 

[grapefruit]

Incorporating Japan with Asia (China+Korea) often makes things worse as Japan does not share the same value.

Although they are not identical, Japan, China, and Korea do share values. I can list a few things.

For instance, Japanese, Chinese, and Korean prefer showing respect to teachers to behaving friendly toward them. In the US, many of Asian students have difficulty calling their teachers by their first names, whereas most of American students do not feel awkward doing so as long as they become close to their teachers.

Japanese, Chinese, and Koreans take highly of saving face when they get together and eat out. They often try to save face by insisting on paying the bill.

The age factor plays a significant role in one's relation to others among these peoples. In this aspect, Koreans pay respect to the elder more than Japanese do. Japanese, Koreans, and Chinese all have equivalent terms of what Japanese call "senpai" (one's senior).

Korean and Japanese guys and Chinese guys from the north tend to exhibit machismo.

I'm curious about what you meant by not sharing the same values. Can you list some?

Personally I have never experienced any racisim overseas, while we (Japanese) may hve been told as racist.

Bammbamm&pebbles said it all. Women tend to suffer more discrimination or unfair treatment than men do. If you pay close attention discrimination is everywhere. This is not limited to Japan or the US.

Meantime your point may be your personal experince as you must not be a Japanese. But that's none of my business as I am Japanese.
To be honest, the other way around. How can you say so? Any source? or is that your wish?

Unfortunately, I AM Japanese. Sadly, this is what most of Japanese who live outside of the country feel. The close feeling toward other Asians is one thing common among those Japanese who are staying outside of the country, regardless of whether the person is staying only for a few months for an ESL program or for a couples of years for his job.

As far as I know, their national sentiments toward Japan is based on their history fabrication. In fact, After WWII, Koreans are divided into North and South, and Chinese had experienced civil war & so-called cultural revolution, and still living in tyranny. IF they were part of Japan, they must have been happier than today, I think.

People do not talk about how a country views history when they meet on a daily basis. There are tons of other things to talk about. In fact, the historical issue is the last thing to discuss.

Interesting point of view, but it is likely that you try to find something common rather than different, while I try to find something different rather than something common.

Well, I have to agree with that. Finding differences is sometimes worthy. After all, the Japanese people is the Japanese people not the Korean people. Some distinctiveness should exist.

But as you can see from the above opinion poll, people in Japan do not see any importance about Asia Union, meaning that people want to keep distance from neighbors. So you better not think of Japan.

I admit that seems to be the case, except the response "Yes, as long as China and Korea do not take part" reaching 29.2 %, which must mean something, possibly hatred toward Chinese and Koreans or fear of Communism?

 

[bammbamm&pebbles]

Unfortunately, I AM Japanese.

Sadly, this is what most of Japanese who live outside of the country feel.The close feeling toward other Asians is one thing common among those Japanese who are staying outside of the country.

I've met one such Japanese ( 隼人君 ) ....

 

[Anatoli]

I met many such Japanese and not only outside Japan but online in Japan (and one of my Japanese Skype partners lives in Japan and learns Chinese)!

I like the mixed environment here in Melbourne when a DVD shop keeps playing mixed Japanese, Chinese and Korean songs and DVD's, CD's are sold from the East-Asian countries, shoppers (including me) buy not just their country's products. I observed similar things in Singapore.


My Japanese Skype partner lives in Japan and learns Chinese.

 

[Astroboy]

I'm curious about what you meant by not sharing the same values. Can you list some?

Only some without prejudice;
1. Mainland Chinese often tell a lie in straight face in order to justify themselves. Maybe if they admit, they know that they will be killed or punished badly in their country.
2. Koreans tend to go violent demonstration/protest in order to cliam their voice. Maybe they don't understand the difference beteen "weak" and "gentle".
3. It is the most difficult for teachers to force Japanese students to speak out in classroom in the US college, while difficult to stop Chinese students to speak.
4. Students from China, S Korea and Japan tend to get together in the schools in USA and make grouping by country.
Looks similar but none of common in behavior.

Bammbamm&pebbles said it all. Women tend to suffer more discrimination or unfair treatment than men do. If you pay close attention discrimination is everywhere. This is not limited to Japan or the US.

True, woman in general.

Unfortunately, I AM Japanese. Sadly, this is what most of Japanese who live outside of the country feel. The close feeling toward other Asians is one thing common among those Japanese who are staying outside of the country, regardless of whether the person is staying only for a few months for an ESL program or for a couples of years for his job.

It's not a question of whether Japanese or not. Look at Shibuya/Roppongi of Tokyo, there are many Westerners gather together and drink beers in the bars and restaurants. Brits, Americans, Canadians, Germans, etc. all mixed.
Maybe they want to feel relief sometimes as they are all foreigners.

People do not talk about how a country views history when they meet on a daily basis. There are tons of other things to talk about. In fact, the historical issue is the last thing to discuss.

You are telling about attitudes of Chinese, Koreans and Japanese in Seattle/USA. But it does not make sense for discussing "Japan in Asia" or "Asian Union". Reportedly, "History" is the most important element in S Korea and China, while majority of Japanese don't care.

Some distinctiveness

Partly yes as we are all human being. But I repeat that I see less common than difference. So better not think of "Japan in Asia", but "Japan only".

 

[pipokun]

The point, grapefruit, is that the people you meet is as same as you in the states for their (your) goal to get the degree or to climb up the corporate ladder back home.

I share your feeling about other East Asian cultures.
For me, we are all different, so I find it interesting to find some similarities, but for some, "ASIA IS ONE", type guys (Japanese or non-Japanese), it may be frustrating to see some differences.

 

[grapefruit]

Only some without prejudice;
1. Mainland Chinese often tell a lie in straight face in order to justify themselves. Maybe if they admit, they know that they will be killed or punished badly in their country.

That's interesting. I have/had the same impression. Aside the fact that there are always people who tell lies without a trace of guilt in any society, Chinese people in the public domain tend to twist or fabricate certain stories and exhibit no polite behavior to defend themselves in a hostile society, which still contains psychological trauma from the Cultural Revolution. But, this does not translate into that they always tell lies. In the circle of personal relationships, Chinese people are very sincere and humble. To some extent, purer than modernized Japanese. But, I have to admit, to outsiders, they appear very hostile. So, I recommend to have a close Chinese friend.

2. Koreans tend to go violent demonstration/protest in order to cliam their voice. Maybe they don't understand the difference beteen "weak" and "gentle".

I concur with this 100%.

3. It is the most difficult for teachers to force Japanese students to speak out in classroom in the US college, while difficult to stop Chinese students to speak.

This is interesting too. I also have the same impression. At the same time, though, there are lots of many quiet Chinese students too. It is possible that the language barrier might be playing a role, but the same issue confronts Japanese as well. I wonder how Americans and other native speakers of English who go to China and teach English feel about the issue. Japanese classrooms are infamous for being quiet.

4. Students from China, S Korea and Japan tend to get together in the schools in USA and make grouping by country.

This is not limited to foreign students from these countries. Americans do this in the US too.

It's not a question of whether Japanese or not. Look at Shibuya/Roppongi of Tokyo, there are many Westerners gather together and drink beers in the bars and restaurants. Brits, Americans, Canadians, Germans, etc. all mixed.
Maybe they want to feel relief sometimes as they are all foreigners.
You are telling about attitudes of Chinese, Koreans and Japanese in Seattle/USA. But it does not make sense for discussing "Japan in Asia" or "Asian Union".

I'm curious, do these foreigners in Shibuya/Roppongi mix only with foreigners from the West or they also mix with Chinese, Koreans, Philippines, and so on? From what you wrote, it seems only Westerners gather together. I wonder why. Isn't it because they have some shared values and feel at ease with each other? Why don't they mix with Asians? If you are pointing out that Brits, Americans, Canadians, Germans, etc stick together in their foreign land of Japan and categorizing them as Westerners, then, it seems appropriate to describe Japanese, Chinese, and Koreans sticking together in their foreign land of the US as Asians who share the same values and feel close to each other.
The issue of commiseration that you pointed out, however, is intriguing. It's hard to say if the judgment is clouded by this or not. Maybe it is a good thing to go through such an experience together.

Reportedly, "History" is the most important element in S Korea and China, while majority of Japanese don't care.
Partly yes as we are all human being. But I repeat that I see less common than difference. So better not think of "Japan in Asia", but "Japan only".

If the majority of Japanese really don't care, Japan can join the Asian group by agreeing with the views on history held by China and Korea. It appears that most Japanese deep down do consider history as an important issue, albeit they say they do not care.

 

[Euro_Hapa]

We keep thinking of Japan's relations with Asian nations as if Japan is not part of Asia. It is, and should be more actively involved in regional affairs. Too many Japanese still feel more comfortable in Western countries than in Asia. I know that is changing but we need better relations with our neighbors, not just with countries 10,000 km away.

This is funny to me, cause Japanese-Americans face the same struggle in America as their fellow Asian-Americans (e.g. Korean-Americans, Chinese-Americans etc).

 

[Anatoli]

Despite all the prejudices, the relationships on the government, social and cultural level between China and Japan are improving after decades of brainwashing, it will be only a matter of time before it will also spread to ordinary people - old habits die hard. I won't surprise anyone saying that, mutual visits, intermarriage, exposure in the media will help this. It's a pity it can't be said (just at this moment) about South Korea and Japan - 2 modern democratic Asian countries in a bit of fight over some islands.

Astroboy, let's be a bit more optimistic and open-minded. People are very similar, it's not nationality that makes people good or bad, it's their attitude to others. Trust me, not all Chinese/Koreans dislike Japanese, so not all Chinese/Koreans deserve to be disliked by you.

 

[Astroboy]

If the majority of Japanese really don't care, Japan can join the Asian group by agreeing with the views on history held by China and Korea. It appears that most Japanese deep down do consider history as an important issue, albeit they say they do not care.

I said that majority of Chinese and Koreans care history or interpret hostory to their favorites. This may be the same in Japan. So big gap among them. But the point is ... Japanese do not care their interpretation, but Chinese/Koreans care Japanese interpretation. Understand?

So better keep difference.

 

[Astroboy]

Astroboy, let's be a bit more optimistic and open-minded. People are very similar, it's not nationality that makes people good or bad, it's their attitude to others. Trust me, not all Chinese/Koreans dislike Japanese, so not all Chinese/Koreans deserve to be disliked by you.

Of course, you are right. But the point is that we need more history or time in the region as Japan is already matured, while Korea is in rebellious stage and China is still ...

 

[Anatoli]

That's correct more time and patience. I think Japanese can actually help Chinese to become less... whatever you mean. Japan has preserved something cultural they borrowed a long time ago from Chinese, which Chinese has now lost. China has now gone a long way in improving their people's reputation and the image overseas, so maybe your impressions are out-of-date to some extent.

As I am learning both Chinese and Japanese languages, among other things, I noticed there is a big number of polite expressions, common to Japanese but are now seldom used in Chinese but they still exist, it proves the things about politeness levels, stock phrases before and after food, leaving, returning, a number of pronouns (heavily reduced in modern Mandarin), etc. Not everything is lost, there are still a few matching patterns: 您贵国? 您贵姓?, which seem identical to お国は? お名前は?

As for the rebellious stage in SK, if you think objectively, in any conflict, there are two parties, so you can't blame just Koreans but any conflict can be resolved if there is a mutual will (including the Russian-Japanese south Kuril Islands dispute).

 

[grapefruit]

That's correct more time and patience. I think Japanese can actually help Chinese to become less... whatever you mean. Japan has preserved something cultural they borrowed a long time ago from Chinese, which Chinese has now lost. China has now gone a long way in improving their people's reputation and the image overseas, so maybe your impressions are out-of-date to some extent.

As I am learning both Chinese and Japanese languages, among other things, I noticed there is a big number of polite expressions, common to Japanese but are now seldom used in Chinese but they still exist, it proves the things about politeness levels, stock phrases before and after food, leaving, returning, a number of pronouns (heavily reduced in modern Mandarin), etc. Not everything is lost, there are still a few matching patterns: 您贵ﾂ坂?? 您贵ﾂ青ｩ?, which seem identical to 窶堋ｨﾂ坂?倪?堙?ﾂ 窶堋ｨ窶督ｼ窶楼窶堙?

Yes. The Cultural Revolution was so unfortunate to Chinese people and their heritage. Many good aspects of Chinese tradition were discontinued by the lost period. I grantee that once you become a friend, Chinese people are polite and nice. It is amazing how much foreign language learning broaden your perspective.

 

[grapefruit]

I said that majority of Chinese and Koreans care history or interpret hostory to their favorites. This may be the same in Japan. So big gap among them. But the point is ... Japanese do not care their interpretation, but Chinese/Koreans care Japanese interpretation. Understand?
So better keep difference.

Well, Japanese do care their interpretation, because Japanese are not willing to accept the Chinese and Korean versions of history, which are at odds with the Japanese version. This is expected, since any sensible person who loves his/her own birth place will attempt to defend its good name.

Also, I see a point of keeping distance from China and Korea. Since the three countries all care about history, it is better not to get too close to China and Korea which do not agree with the Japanese view on history. That is surely one way. Another approach is to make friends with these two countries by staying away from the emotional issue of history. Japan and the US became close friends despite a wealth of different views on Hiroshima & Nagasaki, the bombing of Tokyo, Pearl Harbor, and so on.

By the way, we might have different views on many issues, but I enjoy discussion with you, Astroboy.

 

[Astroboy]

Well, Japanese do care their interpretation, because Japanese are not willing to accept the Chinese and Korean versions of history, which are at odds with the Japanese version. This is expected, since any sensible person who loves his/her own birth place will attempt to defend its good name.

I think you are "playing words" in order to tell "White is Black". I said Japanese don't care (meaning "neglect") their history interpretation, while they do care (intervene) Japanese histroy interpretation.

Please show me any examples that Japanese set fire of National Flags of S Korea/China because their history textbook is unacceptable to Japanese.

Please show me any examples that Japanese throw stones against Embassies of China/S Korea to protest something history.

As far as I know, "Do not care their interpretation" does not mean "acceptance".

Also, I see a point of keeping distance from China and Korea. Since the three countries all care about history, it is better not to get too close to China and Korea which do not agree with the Japanese view on history. That is surely one way. Another approach is to make friends with these two countries by staying away from the emotional issue of history. Japan and the US became close friends despite a wealth of different views on Hiroshima & Nagasaki, the bombing of Tokyo, Pearl Harbor, and so on.

Interpretation about history between Japan and USA is of course different. But we do not intervene their intretation. History is history and Fact is Fact but Interpretation may vary according to their background.

By the way, we might have different views on many issues, but I enjoy discussion with you, Astroboy.

Yes, Quite different.

 

[bammbamm&pebbles]

Back in 2005 ...

China's consulate in the western Japanese city of Osaka received an envelope containing a spent bullet shell and a message threatening to hurt Chinese people if anti-Japanese protests in China continued, police said Tuesday.

"If you continue anti-Japanese protests, Chinese people will be hurt," said the note handwritten in Japanese, an Osaka police official said on condition of anonymity. The package arrived Monday and the consulate reported it to police Tuesday.

Japanese right-wing activists have used similar intimidation tactics in the past

 

[Astroboy]

Back in 2005 ...
China's consulate in the western Japanese city of Osaka received an envelope containing a spent bullet shell and a message threatening to hurt Chinese people if anti-Japanese protests in China continued, police said Tuesday.
"If you continue anti-Japanese protests, Chinese people will be hurt," said the note handwritten in Japanese, an Osaka police official said on condition of anonymity. The package arrived Monday and the consulate reported it to police Tuesday.
Japanese right-wing activists have used similar intimidation tactics in the past

Only one envelope...... You found....but I would like to send you "Congratulation!" Are there more similar cases?

In the meanwhile, I heard that there were many cases that Koreans played double faces - victim of discrimination & Japanese racists - in Japan. So... I don't wonder that somebody Chinese sent such an envelop to the embassy on his own. Either way, it is obvious that people don't care Chinese/Korean history interpretation here unless they do harm anything.

 

[pipokun]

Back in 2005, I don't know when you joined here, bammbamm&pebbles, but don't forget that a Chinese spokesperson clearly said, "NO CHINESE STUDENT KILLED IN JAPAN" soon after the malicious flammable rumor was dropped in China.

If I remember correctly, the victim, the local Chinese community paper in Japan, said the fake bomb was from the US and you may find a subspecific malicious thread even here (it was something like "A Chinese student was raped!!!).

 

[Astroboy]

Therefore, conclusion is .... Japan better keep distance from neighbours. If our neighbours like to establish Asia Union or something similar, please go ahead. Nobody will intervene them. So please do not call us.

 

[4321go]

Quite intresting !

Keep watching it ~ go on~ guys!

 

[Hezam]

why do some people want to involve japan with "world problems" ?
why dont we invite Japanese people to visit our countries and make a friendship with them,not to involve them with our problems or talking instead of them.

 

[bammbamm&pebbles]

It would be difficult for relationships to be build on equal footing unless Japanese stop thinking themselves superior to other Asians.

Japanese dilema is inferior but superior,a mix of inferiority and superiority complex.Inferiority because the Japanese are in awe of the scientific and artistic achievements of the Western Civilization ( which is why they copied so much since Meiji Period ). Superiority because they feel that their society is safer, people are more polite and respectful, their culture stresses some aspects not found in most European cultures.

They want to prove themselves superior,but still feel inferor because their movies never equal Hollywood ( Japan's film industry collapsed in the late 1970's ),their artists rarely rival Western ones,etc ... Japan will always be behind the West culturally and scientifically.

Japan is a member of Asia-Pacific Economic Cooperation (APEC),this organization initially proposed The East Asia Economic Caucus (EAEC) to exclude US Australia New Zealand Canada.Japan was the one-and-only Asian country refused participation,as I see it Japan is set to stay as political dwarf subjugated to the US on the international scene.

 

[grapefruit]

I think you are "playing words" in order to tell "White is Black". I said Japanese don't care (meaning "neglect") their history interpretation, while they do care (intervene) Japanese histroy interpretation.
Please show me any examples that Japanese set fire of National Flags of S Korea/China because their history textbook is unacceptable to Japanese.
Please show me any examples that Japanese throw stones against Embassies of China/S Korea to protest something history.
As far as I know, "Do not care their interpretation" does not mean "acceptance".
Interpretation about history between Japan and USA is of course different. But we do not intervene their intretation. History is history and Fact is Fact but Interpretation may vary according to their background.
Yes, Quite different.

Absence of violent protests does not mean people do not care. I don't not know if this is relevant, but Japanese people are, generally speaking, not good at protesting. To me, Japanese culture appears to sanction those who protest. Protesting and not accepting are often takne as a disgraceful act in Japan. Japanese students typically do not protest when their test scores are graded poor. People rarely speak up in public. Did you see the J drama "saito san"? The main character of the drama "saito san" was an oddball because she protests whenever she sees something unfair. Her courageous actions move those who around her because others cannot protest even if they think something is wrong.

 

[Astroboy]

Japanese dilema is inferior but superior,a mix of inferiority and superiority complex.Inferiority because the Japanese are in awe of the scientific and artistic achievements of the Western Civilization ( which is why they copied so much since Meiji Period ). Superiority because they feel that their society is safer, people are more polite and respectful, their culture stresses some aspects not found in most European cultures.

So, you are telling your mix feeling about Japapn. You want Japan to be a part of "your Asia" but Japanese are neglecting. Carry on. Japan is always quiet and smiling.

They want to prove themselves superior,but still feel inferor because their movies never equal Hollywood ( Japan's film industry collapsed in the late 1970's ),their artists rarely rival Western ones,etc ... Japan will always be behind the West culturally and scientifically.
Japan is a member of Asia-Pacific Economic Cooperation (APEC),this organization initially proposed The East Asia Economic Caucus (EAEC) to exclude US Australia New Zealand Canada.Japan was the one-and-only Asian country refused participation,as I see it Japan is set to stay as political dwarf subjugated to the US on the international scene.

Again, You feel something inferior against Japan, while Japanese don't feel anything. You better tell more straight "Please look at us" or something.

Absence of violent protests does not mean people do not care. I don't not know if this is relevant, but Japanese people are, generally speaking, not good at protesting. To me, Japanese culture appears to sanction those who protest. Protesting and not accepting are often takne as a disgraceful act in Japan. Japanese students typically do not protest when their test scores are graded poor. People rarely speak up in public. Did you see the J drama "saito san"? The main character of the drama "saito san" was an oddball because she protests whenever she sees something unfair. Her courageous actions move those who around her because others cannot protest even if they think something is wrong.

I've never heard about "saito-san". I think you are dreaming something.
Either way you cannot prove anything, but telling "Japan is the same as us or similar", while nobody think of that.