Is Japan Morally qualified for UNSC Permanent Membership?

qwertyu · 2 Jun 2005

quietwolf, all these points you raised have been covered extensively on several threads on this site, especially under the Japan-China, Japan-Korea bilateral relations segment. It would be helpful if you give them a once-over to see how others have responded to all of your arguments, and you would also find many links to information that illustrate how others have come to their conclusion. If the majority of the Japanese think and feel like you do, which I suspect is the case, then indeed I won't be surprised [and neither should you] if your neighbours, Russia, China and Korea will all oppose Japan's bid for a permanent UNSC seat, while ushering in rivals like Brazil and India. There is nothing in your post that indicate that you have ever considered the views and perspectives of Japan's former victims with regard to how Japan wants to portray this SHARED history. My emphasis is on SHARED because if Japan did not invade and brutally colonised others in recent history, then by all means you can be sole author of the preferred version of your own story [eg. that you are descendants of the Sun Goddess, etc.]. By insisting on your version, there is by implication that others' versions of history that differ from yours are lies. This is unacceptable to Japan's victims.

2.5 million dead Japanese soldiers were dedicated at Yasukuni Shrine. They include Class A war criminals. The A's also died for Japan as far as Japanese are concerned, and their dead souls should be respected. Also some of the A's had been pardoned and played important roles in the post war Japan. Japanese quite don't understand why Chinese and Koreans are so vehemently against Koizumi's visit to Yasukuni. What's wrong about paying respect to those who died for Japan in the past wars? Or, are they against Shinto shrine itself? There are Shinto shrines in every town in Japan. It is a part of Japanese culture. It is more than a religion and simply a part of Japanese daily life.

This too has been covered in the Yasukuni Shrine thread, so it would save us all a lot of repetition if you go through it first before you contribute new insight/arguments.

Yasukuni isn't just a simple religious shrine as it adopts a very strong political stance, that Japan invaded Asia in "self-defense", that war criminals who killed milliions are martyrs, that Japan "liberated" backward Asians, etc., extremely offensive rhetoric to Japan's victims.

Since these are all noble goals, does all this mean that Japan doesn't believe it did anything wrong in invading Asia and causing the deaths of 20 million?

I am really curious, do you think the Germans should really pay respect to Hitler, since he too died for the dream of a Greater Germany?

qwertyu · 2 Jun 2005

Ok, let me do a bit of accounting here. If I killed 20 million people in the most horrendous fashion sparing no women children or the aged, laid waste to whole cities and villages, plundered their treasures and gold, but as long as I have apologised 17 times and paid $30 billion in aid [and Germany paid $80 billion as reparation alone] over 60 years, a tiny fraction of my annual income, I am allowed to declare that I am in fact the victim forced into doing mass murder and plunder, that those who accused me of specific past crimes are liars, that I still am entitled to wartime spoils, to declare the women I raped were prostitutes and my former victims need to shut up about me rewriting my history in the way I see fit?

17 apologies and $30 billion pays for 20 million lives and a shiny new history? Hmm.

quietwolf · 2 Jun 2005

Hi Qwertyu,

First of all, I think Japan's involvement in WWII is totally insane. The war should have been avoided. Up to a war against Russia, Japan was skillfully maneuvering in the European colonized Asia for her survival against fear of being colonized, having an alliance with UK and US diplomatic help as intervention by US for the ending of Japan-Russia war. But the wining the impossible (defeating mighty Russia) changed Japan and Japanese even though the odds of Japan losing was high. Invincibility of some kind, I think. Then Japan colonized Korea, and gone deep into China trying to monopolize her against Europeans and Americans. I think the defeat is well deserved to wake up Japanese. I think today's Japanese are very pacifist and don't want get into troubles with the neighbors at all. However, the fact is the fact. The war did indeed quicken the pace of independence of India from English and Indonesia from Dutch.

As for Yasukuni, I don't see much issue of Koizumi paying respect to the dead soldiers. But I agree to some of your raised points. I visited Yasukuni's museum. I don't like what I saw there. Kamikaze pilots have been glorified. To me, that Kamikaze was totally immoral and above all very ineffective tactics. It was a waste of human and weapon resources. Well, maybe I need to support one idea of creating a separate place for honoring the war deads. Sounds like a changing minds? There are a few options discussed extensively in Japan to resolve this Yasukuni issue. But they all have some problems: such as some Class A's family refused to move their father's name to a different site, etc. Well, we hope all will be resolved somehow. Again, Japan is a democratic country not totalitarian for a government to decide to do whatever they want.

Why don't you try to read the Japanese textbooks? They are very fair. Has anybody in the Forum read the textbooks? As indicated before, there are so many versions of the textbooks as well as opinions, columns, etc. Most of them are very liberal. To me, Japanese are always a bit too sensitive to the neighbors reactions, or worrying too much about their reactions all the time. Japanese are very guilty conscious against Chinese and Koreans. I am not sure how people like you understand that Japanese only wish peace with neighbors.

qwertyu · 2 Jun 2005

I believe that you are genuinely sincere about this, so I will offer my frank opinion that most people outside of Japan, especially those living in the invaded nations do not share your belief that Japan did not intend to colonise and exploit Asia and its people for the sake of enriching Japan, as the Western Imperial powers did, but to "liberate" them. The objective was always to grab a share of that lucrative colonial pie. Throughout the colonisation and invasion, Japan was also no less racist towards the "Untermensch" Chinese and Koreans, many still do, like Shintaro Ishihara [Chinese "criminal DNA"?], and enjoy huge popularity in Japan. Can you imagine a hugely popular Chinese or Korean politician wax lyrical about the theory of Japanese "war criminal DNA" and receive 70% support? I'd hardly describe it as being in anyway "sensitive" towards Japan's neighbours' reaction.

As for textbooks, there's also another thread, with translation, and the consensus from non-Japanese seem to be they are very much lacking in historical accountability.

So many Japanese have expressed the desire for peace with the neighbours, but how is it that when the neighbours say they do not feel at peace after their torment because they feel that Japan distorts their shared history, diminished their suffering and glorified the war and war criminals, the Japanese just tell them to um, * off? If the Japanese feel some responsibility, shouldn't they have offered many, many years ago to sit down and address these issues together with the former victims, get the UN or expert historians in to arrive at a just, straight and truthful judgement?

If Japan desires that something be done to put this behind them and truly explore peace with its neighbours, there are so many things they can do which are honourable and right; Maciamo has started a thread on it even.

Personally, my ancestors were too far removed and untouched. So this is a matter of principle, especially when the Chinese are so inept at expressing themselves when they post, though I do know friends whose families have suffered epic tragedies at the hands of the Japanese Army.

Sorry, to me at least, the Japanese come across as uncaring, unsympathetic and disdainful towards their former victims, despite the 17 "sorrys" and $30 b cash. I'm sure they are otherwise very nice to others like Australians, Europeans and Americans.

qwertyu · 2 Jun 2005

Actually, my problem with Yasukuni wasn't the Kamikazes. I am in fact sympathetic towards them, but not in the way you'd imagine. If you read my posts on the "What to do about Yasukuni" thread, my objection to Yasukuni was mainly their propaganda about Japan being forced to go to war, in self-defense, and did it to liberate Asia and never committed crimes, etc. It's like 60 years later, it's still the same crap.

qwertyu · 2 Jun 2005

To clarify, there are circumstances when people will do a kamikaze, i.e sacrifice yourself for something worthy, eg. unarmed people who are invaded by a stronger, ruthless military oppressor and killer. I argue with my pacifist friends [who are against ANY violence] about this sometimes, but if I were Jewish during Hitler's reign, I would have undoubtedly done it. Perhaps if I were a Chinese in Nanjing too. However, it is insane when your own ruthless government demand the ultimate sacrifice from you in order to wage a war of greed and conquer. Then you are also a victim.

Tonysoong · 2 Jun 2005

welcome to this forum, QUIETWOLF, though we have been having this much hostility here already. Seems hard for guys to bring something new.

Tonysoong · 2 Jun 2005

quietwolf said:
Hi Qwertyu,

.... However, the fact is the fact. The war did indeed quicken the pace of independence of India from English and Indonesia from Dutch.

... I am not sure how people like you understand that Japanese only wish peace with neighbors.

You mean the Japanese troops were emuncipators of India and Indonesia? Then what if i tell you that Japanese invasion of China resulted in the communist take-over in that country? Does that mean that Japan was then pro-communist?

We are not here talking about whether any country (Japan included) still insanely want more wars today. instead, we are questioning if someone needs to be responsible for what he has already done, and, if yes, how.

quietwolf · 3 Jun 2005

Hi I am back!

There seems some misunderstanding. I've never said that Japan started a war with the intention of liberating Asians from European colonial powers. When Japan opened the country to the world in the early 20th century, she was horrified the way Asian nations (as well as Africans) being colonized by the Europeans, and realized that the only way to prevent being colonized was to become a strong military power. I think Japan was too successful with it, and in the process the military took a control from the civilian government. Then Japan started playing like a colonial power. In the process, Japan lost a good relationship with English and Americans, and realigned with Hitler. At that time, Japan was not even realistic. Stupid! But it was a sort of by-products that the countries like India and Indonesia had a better chance of getting independence due to the weakening of their colonial masters by the war. Again, it was nothing to do with the Japan's intention.

The name of Hitler comes up often. But there was no such monster in Japan. Hitler and Nazis tried to kill the entire population of the Jewish people. Of course, Chinese and Koreans suffered, but Japan's intention was to conquer and rule as a colonial power. Conquering a huge China is simply impossible! You might say that Japan's deeds were horrible enough, though.

You kept saying that Japan doesn't show any willingness to understand the feeling of the neighboring people and historical implications, damages, etc. That's not true. Both governments of Korea and Japan started mutual historical understandings of the past history to be reflected to the school history textbooks. Japan approached China for a similar study, but so far Chinese government didn't reply.

Just about all Japanese feel it is essential to have a good strategic relationship with the neighbors; especially China. China and Japan need to have good economic and political relationship to benefit both. For that, China needs to approach Japan as well instead of taking a rather confrontational attitude toward Japan. I agree however that Japan also needs to work more diplomatically too, really showing its sicererity. One thing is clear, though, the current confrontational attitude by China makes Koizumi popular. I don't like the current situation. I think both sides need to do some approaching.

qwertyu · 3 Jun 2005

quietwolf, I think both sides still differ as to the extent of suffering and devastation, but I would accept that you are sincere about improving the relationship for the sake of peace. But you know that wars aren't started by citizens, but politicians. And since you are from Tokyo, you might be able to explain Ishihara's popularity when just recently, he says things like this, that the "U.S., Russia, and Japan" should work together to strangle China's oil supplies. "It would keep China in check greatly," he said, "since China has no resources."

I honestly don't think that can be considered "peaceful" to cut off another country's fuel supply. How would it sound to you if a Chinese top politician talk about strangling your economic lifeblood?

The rest of this very insightful and very frightening article about heightened tensions and possible wars is here:

The Dragon and the Chrysanthemum - Antiwar.com Original

For all the talk about peace, if Japanese people applaud louder everytime Koizumi or Ishihara ratchet up their hardline stand and aggression, they are really angling for a fight. Everyone should wake up and smell the plutonium.

Tonysoong · 3 Jun 2005

quietwolf said:
Again, it was nothing to do with the Japan's intention.

You did a good job in representing part of Japan's 20th century history, yet the conclusion remains controversial, Quietwolf. Are you trying to say that Japan invaded A just not to be invaded by B?

Tonysoong · 3 Jun 2005

quietwolf said:
The name of Hitler comes up often. But there was no such monster in Japan.

So?

Or there could be monsters like hitler (even more brutal than Hitler) who have been treated as national heroes?

Tonysoong · 3 Jun 2005

quietwolf said:
Just about all Japanese feel it is essential to have a good strategic relationship with the neighbors; especially China. China and Japan need to have good economic and political relationship to benefit both. For that, China needs to approach Japan as well instead of taking a rather confrontational attitude toward Japan. I agree however that Japan also needs to work more diplomatically too, really showing its sicererity. One thing is clear, though, the current confrontational attitude by China makes Koizumi popular. I don't like the current situation. I think both sides need to do some approaching.

Good will is not conveyed merely by words, dear Quietwolf

lexico · 4 Jun 2005

Welcome back, quietwolf

quietwolf said:
I've never said that Japan started a war with the intention of liberating Asians from European colonial powers...
it was nothing to do with the Japan's intention...
Chinese and Koreans suffered, but Japan's intention was to conquer and rule as a colonial power.

If you sincerely believe so, why do you keep mentioning this

it was a sort of by-products that the countries like India and Indonesia had a better chance of getting independence due to the weakening of their colonial masters by the war.

as if wanting to get some credit ? Do you honestly believe the people of India, Indonesia, or respective gov'ts will render Imperial Japan any gratitude ?

When Japan opened the country to the world in the early 20th century, she was horrified the way Asian nations (as well as Africans) being colonized by the Europeans, and realized that the only way to prevent being colonized was to become a strong military power.

As a result of Imperial Japan's fear and reaction to that fear, did Imperial Japan not terrorize the areas it occupied with even greater terrors ?

Quote James McClain: "The incidents of 1894 and 1904 exhibited something greater than mere reaction of a feeble state only hoping to protect itself from imminent threats from invaders of magnitude. The Japanese government, by plan, with full awareness, and meticulously followed the path of imperialism, and as much as the expansion of the empire was a means of defense, so was it charactertized by aggressiveness."

I think Japan was too successful with it, and in the process the military took a control from the civilian government. Then Japan started playing like a colonial power.

That is incorrect. By the early 1890's Japanese politicians either conservative or progressive arrived at the following conclusion.

"Considering that the imperialist, racist approach of the West can become a serious threat to Japan's security, it is just for Japan to seriously consider taking its neighboring countries to preserve itself. In order that Japan not become pray to other countries, it is inevitable that Japan sacrifices other countries."

"The events of 1890's, victory in the Sino-Japanese War, signing of the Treaty of Shimonoseki, the normalization of unequal relationships with the West aroused patriotism in the Japanese people...Another way of expressing national pride was to insult the Chinese...Sarcasm hidden beneath feigned modesty added to the flavor of FukuzawaYukichi's writings."

"Jan. 1904, the Premier and the Diet decided to go to war with Russia. Feb 10, Emperor Meiji declared war during the Yasukuni jinja ritual where war heroes were enshrined."

I do not see the military seizing power and driving the nation to war, but it was the emperor, the political leaders, educators of the common people, and the Japanese people themselves, all civilians, that embraced the idea of imperialist expansion and acted upon it.

quietwolf said:
In the process, Japan lost a good relationship with English and Americans, and realigned with Hitler.
...
The name of Hitler comes up often. But there was no such monster in Japan. Hitler and Nazis tried to kill the entire population of the Jewish people...
You might say that Japan's deeds were horrible enough, though.

Are you aware to what degree horrible was horrible ? What about the 200,000 Chinese civilians and the 150,000 Chinese army that were slaughtered individually and en masse in and around Nanjing alone ? What about the human experiments at Unit 731, Unit 1644, Unit 9420, Unit 100, Unit 1855, and the Institute for Disease Control 窶塗窶ｰu硏窶ｹ窶?ﾅｽﾂｺ ? What about the use of biological warheads over military personnel and civilians, all illegal according to international law so frequently quoted by your government ?

Why was none of the 76 surviving war criminals who engaged in illegal experiments on humans put on trial and served justice according to law ? In fact they continue with their medical businesses with privilege, with immunity, holding secure jobs in government (3), the military (6), research facilities (19), universities and colleges (24), private clinics (15), pharmaceuticals (8), and other (1).

At least three of these, 內窶慊｡窶氾??ｪ (窶塗窶ｰu硏窶ｹ窶?ﾅｽﾂｺ), 窶徒窶禿ｬﾂ青ｭﾅｽﾅｸ(731窶｢窶昶?佚? 窶｢窶昶?佚?窶卍ｷ), 窶佚･窶彡ﾃｼK窶吮?突?ｪﾃｻﾂｶ(9420窶｢窶昶?佚?) were involved in the sales of AIDS contaminated serum to some 2,000 patients. They currently enjoy their privileged lives as founding members and presidents of Green Cross, Green Cross Tokyo, and Green Cross Kyoto. Why are they being rewarded for their criminal behavior during WWII ? (Nanjing Peace Forum 2002)

You go further to say the following;

quietwolf said:
You kept saying that Japan doesn't show any willingness to understand the feeling of the neighboring people and historical implications, damages, etc. That's not true.

Since you deny the accusations, let me ask you these. What legal action has your government taken to do the victims justice, dead or alive ? On the contrary, your government/legal system added insult to injury by not trying one single war crminal on its own, by reversing the sentencing passed by the Far East Tribunal, by releasing the 18 war criminals in 1958 without having them complete their prison terms, and by the reversing of their criminal status. At the very place where your emperors declared war in the past, your government enshrined 1,068 war criminals as war heroes and martyrs in 1959 and 1978. Please tell me how that shows Japan's willingness to repair the wrongs committed during the 60 some years of military aggression.

quietwolf said:
Just about all Japanese feel it is essential to have a good strategic relationship with the neighbors; especially China. China and Japan need to have good economic and political relationship to benefit both. For that, China needs to approach Japan as well instead of taking a rather confrontational attitude toward Japan. I agree however that Japan also needs to work more diplomatically too, really showing its sicererity. One thing is clear, though, the current confrontational attitude by China makes Koizumi popular. I don't like the current situation. I think both sides need to do some approaching.

You are confusing business with legal matters. Diplomacy can help only when there is substance to work on; diplomacy is nothing but empty talk when honest admission to violation of the victims is absent and only denial and self-rationalization abound.

If the Japanese government and the Japanese people are forthcoming with historical accuracy, if they take necessary measures that truly reflect Japan's regret and repentance of the war aggressions by first representing factual history as recognized by international scholars of history, and if they take the necessary legal action by taking the initiative of tracking down war criminals and their activities as exemplified by Germany with over 100,000 war criminals pursued and over 6,000 war criminals convicted, then Japan should have no problem with the justified victims and their governments due to Japan's sincere efforts. Why not pay its dues that will never go away as long as human history continues ? I'll give you a chance to respond.

quietwolf · 4 Jun 2005

My response

Hi,

Isn't it important for all of us to start working for a good relationship? It's no ending to quoting a piece of history since there so many versions always. Also China, Korea and Japan have been good guys and bad guys in history as we are all humans.

I agree Japan needs to do a lot of work, but China and Korea too. Their school textbooks are very ﾂ'sensational', and breed hatred, and that's not constructive. We are interdependent, especially today's global economy. Since China's recent political strength stems from the economic success, she needs to maintain good relationship with other countries too. China's stock market is recently stagnating, and even Shanghai's real estate market started weakening. Many foreign companies are seriously studying an alternate site to China like Vietnam. All I am saying is that the recent confrontation is very counter-productive.

Ishihara should realize the importance of strategic relationship with China instead of criticizing her all the time. I even feel we need strategic alliance with China.

Koizumi's Yasukuni shrine visit makes a lot of Japanese nervous even though his determination to respect for the soldiers died for Japan was praised. He should know it is his political responsibility to come up with a solution satisfying both Japanese people and the neighboring countries.

As for the school textbooks, nothing should be hidden. There will be time limitation however, since the kids need to be taught for all the subjects and even history, there is so much to be taught. Yes, the modern history portion can be expanded somehow. As Japan started with Korea, I think a joint history review is a good idea. I say both governments and experts of China and Japan can review all the WWII historical events accurately and come up with a joint report with whatever necessary actions to follow. We need to move forward.

lexico · 4 Jun 2005

quietwolf said:
Isn't it important for all of us to start working for a good relationship? It's no ending to quoting a piece of history since there so many versions always.

How does a good relationship begin when trust is lacking ? When trust is betrayed by windspeak ? Let's not confuse business/strategic alliance without substance. As I said earlier, we mustn't confuse business with legal matters. Diplomacy can help only when there is substance to work on; diplomacy is nothing but empty talk when honest admission to violation of the victims is absent and only denial and self-rationalization abound.

You call my references 'a piece of history' ? I have not quoted a single line from a Korean/Chinese textbook. Why is Japan so slow to admit its past which can only breed mistrust ?

Although digressing since you seem to consider economy as some kind of l;everage, let me say this. Too much reliance on China alone is not healthy for the global economy, so distributing some business in Vietnam would be quite welcome for all involved. Nevertheless, the conditions aren't as favorable as one might think; do look into the details of mfr. business when you really want to tout some muscles.

The counter-productive confrontations stem from the recent provocations due to actions taken by the Japanese government, so let's stop passing the bucket when you know it all started with Japan then and now. The joint historical projects have begun already with Korea with only minor results.

The Japanese participants have been slow to admitting the now-so-obvious details of history; Japan's historical views are quickly falling into the minority view due to its lack of enthusiasm. Why is it that Japan has been so late and slow in coming out straight with its imperialist acts of aggression compared to Germany ?

Remember Tokutomi Soho proclaimed on Japan's victory in the Sino-Japanese War, 'Civilization is not the monopoly of the White race. The West has come to realize that Japan, with its unique national character, can also accomplish great achievements in the international comminity.'

Then what is the sudden cause of the backwardness that Japan has been exhibiting in the field of accurate history, retarding and retreating back into self-advocacy ? What will it take for Japan to come out of the closet and see the light of day ?

Tonysoong · 4 Jun 2005

Nobody here means skeptism about your personal good will, Quietwolf, yet mere words of diplomacy don't heal.

quietwolf · 6 Jun 2005

Hi Lexico,

Japan might appear not quickly responding to the Neighbors' war related issues, or being awkward, or even evading. Let me state my thoughts on it.

As far as the Japanese are concerned, the WWII was very painful experience. The natural reaction is to forget, whether it is allowed or not.

Not only millions of soldiers died at the war, but million civilians died by the allied bombing of the cities where the aims to kill civilians are obvious. As Robert McNamara stated in a movie ﾂ'The Fog of War', it was a war-crime act; clear violation of Geneva Convention. Just before the war's close, Russia unilaterally cancelled Sino-Japan Treaty, and attacked Japan. Even after Japan officially surrendered, Russia continued to attack and to kill Japanese soldiers and civilians for a while. Then Russia took 600,000 Japanese soldiers to Siberia for hard labor for long time, and the last one returned to Japan was 1956. During the time, about 10% of the soldiers died. No apologies and compensation from Russia was given so far. Of course the same tragedy had occurred to the German soldiers too.

At Tokyo War Tribunal, no war crimes of the Allied were mentioned, and only Japanese side was prosecuted. Remembering of all the bombings of cities, Atomic bombs, etc., many Japanese felt unfair. But Japanese accepted it because Japan lost the war, and the best way is to forget the past and to look for the future by accepting San Francisco treaty.

Then Japan concluded the war compensation treaty with South Korean and China.

Of course even though Japanese want to forget the past and don't have much of ill feelings toward Americans or even to Russians, expecting the same thing to Chinese and Koreans is, I think, too opportunistic and insensitive. Frankly speaking, it is a bit loss for me to understand the extent these people still carry those anger and unpleasantness. Maybe because Japan started the war, so it was easier to forget.

Even though there will be not much of legal basis anymore for the Chinese and Koreans to ask for the compensation to Japan (as Japanese cannot because of the San Francisco treaty), a lot of diplomatic and social approach to resolve those issues will be necessary. I think Japan is slowly moving to the right direction. Even though it appears a serious confrontation between Japan and its neighbors, more argument and discussion will eventually result in a sort of solution and better environment. No solution can satisfy everyone though.

Of course, nobody wants to re-do the WWII war crime tribunal all over again to examine all the war crimes from both the Axis and the Allied. A list could be huge including Churchill, Truman, Roosevelt, Stalin, Chan Kai Shek, Mao Tze Tong, and well Emperor. It could be really messy.

Tonysoong · 6 Jun 2005

Quietwolf, i understand your sincerity in representing a Japanese perspective of viewing WW2. Refreshing, i'd say. But have you noticed that Japan appears arrogantly defiant and indifferent in refuting WW2 tribunal as not having prosecuted those who defended themselves by stopping further Japanese atrocities, and in forgetting and seeking to look forward without bowing its head in repentance for what it has done.

I brutally wronged you, and i am now telling you i am forgetting all the offense because merely remembering the experience of wronging you is agony to me. What's this? It's arrogance and indifference, Quietwolf.

Forget to heal or heal to forget? No forgetting before healing, perhaps.

adam.won · 12 Jun 2005

senseiman said:
Moral qualifications? Er...take a look at the big 5 permanent security council members and see how "Morally qualified" they are for the job:

China- brutal dictatorship that supresses religious and ethnic minorities. Executes more of its citizens every year than any other country in the world.

Russia - Became a member of the security council under Stalin, one of the most brutal dictators in human history responsible for the deaths of millions. Currently fighting a brutal campaign to crush seperatists in Chechnya that has killed hundreds of thousands.

Britain - Became a member of the Security council at a time when it was the colonial overlord of a quarter of the Earth's surface, using extreme brutality to suppress independence movements across Africa and Asia.

France - Has during its time as a security council member fought unsuccesful wars of suppresion in Southeast Asia and North Africa in which hundreds of thousands were killed.

The USA - Has a rap sheet a mile long of illegal wars, propping up of viscious dictators and other bad deeds done during its tenure on the Security council.

During the entire 50 plus years of the existance of the Security council, no Japanese soldier has fired a single shot in anger. In that time, every one of the five members of the security council has been involved in wars in which hundreds of thousands of people were killed. How is it that Japan isn't to be considered "morally qualified" to be on the council when those other five are? Because the repeated apologies it has issued over for acts commited over 60 years ago haven't been sufficiently heartfelt?

No offence, but I can't comprehend the rationale of the argument against Japan. It just seems ludicrously hypocritical to me.

Okay , i just want to raise 2 questions:

1. why did people in China didn't recognize other nations than Japan has the moral qualification? Do they have a discrimination against Japanese?? Huh!!

2.When almost 1/4 world population as well as other Chinese supporters protest it , would this seat be warm and comfortable?

Over

qwertyu · 16 Jun 2005

quietwolf, I disagree with you completely that things are going in the right direction. In fact, things are going in a very SCARY direction that I am even bothering to post about this. The current crop of LDP politicians, with Koizumi at the helm, are doing their very best to provoke confrontations with China at every opportunity. Even the former PMs and many other old-guard LDP conservatives have noted this with some alarm. Check out the thread by Rock Lee about the "China threat". I'll repeat some of my point here.

I wonder what it is that convinces the rightwing Japanese that it is to Japan's advantage right now to provoke a meltdown of Japan-China relations? It's funny how most posters here believe that it is the other way round, that it is China and the Chinese provoking Japan by demanding an honest account of WWII, when the acts [from Japan declaring China a "threat" and not the other way round to Koizumi's Yasukuni visits] are clearly designed to provoke China. Interestingly, the old-guard LDP conservatives, including almost all the former PMs from Nakasone to Hasimoto, seem to be very concerned about the deterioration in relationships and have urged Koizumi to hold back to no avail. See

http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/06/06/news/policy.php

Note the comments from the Nonaka about how recent events reminded the 79 yr old of prewar Japan when politicians manipulated public opinion to rouse nationalism through fear-mongering.

Here's another very interesting piece in the always excellent Asia Times:

atimes.com

There is a split within the ranks of the LDP conservatives, mirorring the neo-con/paleo-con split within the US Republican party. Koizumi seems like the Japanese version of Bush defining a radical new Japanese order of dealing with its neighbours. Emboldened stupidity may just win him the votes, as it did for Bush, but we also know that the Bush agenda was not just American but global. Iraq is a terrible mistake, but one that has paid handsomely for Bush and Cheney corporate allies.

Koizumi, Machimura, Ishihara, etc. are the Japanese equivalent of the neo-cons, from their support of Bush's Iraqi adventures to his N. Korea/China strategy. There's mischief aboard, and I just hope there are enough sane Japanese left to put a stop to it.

adam.won · 16 Jun 2005

As for the school textbooks, nothing should be hidden. There will be time limitation however, since the kids need to be taught for all the subjects and even history, there is so much to be taught. Yes, the modern history portion can be expanded somehow. As Japan started with Korea, I think a joint history review is a good idea. I say both governments and experts of China and Japan can review all the WWII historical events accurately and come up with a joint report with whatever necessary actions to follow. We need to move forward.

For this I just totally agree with you , I think yes, Chinese may also have hidden something , but i am always confident that Japan has hidden the ALL . They think the War is necessary for Asia ,and it's their sacred mission to rescue the people.

If I tell the Japanese , I beat you because I want to help you , do you think it's a ridiculous and foolish ,even brutism???!!!

lexico · 16 Jun 2005

adam.won said:
They think the War is necessary for Asia ,and it's their sacred mission to rescue the people.

I might have thought the 'is' was a grammatical error for 'was' had I not read this thread, Checking the Threat that could be China. Is there stopping a war if some people on top had already decided ?
The recent concern for N.Korea's human rights and the 'Nuclear what if' scenarios of surgical removal just released June 6 this year are both encouraging and sobering. Please do not push for war even if having one might serve to fulfill certain objectives for certain people. Human lives are not expendible material for more power or another objective. There are other non-aggressive means to promote change; please do not give up these options.

qwertyu · 16 Jun 2005

War IS necessary for 2 reasons - it rouses nationalism and rallies political support for the political leaders in Japan and the US and it pays handsomely for the military-industrial complex that benefits greatly from increased spending. The former and the latter are of course intricately related to eachother.

I would also like to point out that the Chinese government went out of its way to crack down on free speech [wrongly, it seems], arresting activists and shutting down web rings, right after the Indonesian summit with Koizumi. In return, Koizumi, Machimura, etc. up their nasty, anti-China rhetoric, taunting those Japanese who urgued for better relations that they are cowards and "kowtowing" to China. I mean, use your brains, what is going on here? Who is escalating tensions and who is doing the compromising?

qwertyu · 16 Jun 2005

lexico, I'm afraid any kind of fighting involving N. Korea will end up dragging China, S. Korea and even Russia in. A good question to ask ourselves is " Do the American and Japanese neo-cons lack the appetite for "action"?" After Iraq, they are aching for a good fight with the rest of the axis-of-evil and axis-of-lesser-evil. It doesn't matter if it sounds insane. Iraq is insane, but did it stop them? We ignored Mein Kampf because we ask ourselves how anyone could have taken it seriously. We're ignoring "The Project for a new American Century" at our own peril.

Is Japan Morally qualified for UNSC Permanent Membership?

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