For whom is it easier to live in Japan; foreigners or Japanese?

[gaijinalways]

orichi posted

We're all at the edge of our seats...

Luckily I fell off of mine a long time ago.

Mikawa Ossan posted

I think that if you plan on staying for a long time, meaning forever, it is definately easier for Japanese.

First, Japanese people do not have to worry about visas.

Since I am a permanent resident, I don't have a lot of worries when it comes to visas (though I do admit having to keep getting reentry permits is irksome).

Mikawa Ossan posted

Second, there is the language issue

Yes, but I suppose language is not everything. Many of your points after this center around this linguistic ability, excepting having relatives, which I also have since my wife is Japanese.


Mikawa Ossan posted

Having said that, after spending some time on Gaijin Pot, I understand how people can have an easy time in Japan as a foreigner. But those people are only here on short term and mostly seem to want to play around, anyway. Those people I don't include in my 'analysis' above.

I probably wouldn't either, though it is difficult to decide who are short term and long term residents sometimes. As to what people want to do, I'll leave that up to others to figure out.

 

[Mars Man]

Thanks for the response, gaijinalways san. . . we can now see that you are willing, at least, to put forth some real effort for this thread. Now, I strongly suggest that if you are really in for a discussion related to the more specific concept questioned by your own OP, that you allow that your mature posting quality be seen and present your position. Only by having done that can we actually discuss this with you, and you with us.

I will give you until tomorrow this time to have done so, and if not, there is a very good chance that I, personally, will close this thread, because you are still acting 'trollish' in nature here--and of course no degree of trollishness ever admits to itself, therefore I will appeal to 'actions speak louder than words' here.

After you have presented your position, I will discuss it with you in further detail.

 

[Pachipro]

Glenski

When all is take into account, I believe that it is easier for the foreigner to live in Japan, both the long-term and the short-term, as foreigners ARE NOT expected to know the language, culture, and customs 100% even if they are fluent in the language and have lived there for more than 10 years. It is just not expected of them; never has, and probably never will be. Even though they desire it and demand the respect accorded any Japanese for following their customs and learning the language, it will never happen and this tends to frustrate the hell out of many a long-term foreigner where they come to despise the country they have called home and haved decided to reside in for who knows how long.

As was mentioned above, even long-term foreigners can always play the "gaijin card" and they will be forgiven because, after all, they are foreign. Once a foreigner understands that they will never be accepted and learns to live with it, only then may they enjoy the fruits of living in Japan as a foreigner, especially if one is fluent.

A Japanese on the other hand has no card to play and must do what is expected of any Japanese whether they like it or not. Is it not "Jersey Boy" who, being Japanese, but lived in America so long that he feels American, is now having trouble coping with the customs and traditions of Japan now that he has moved back? So much so that he is even wondering whether he needs a pre-nup before getting married.

Japanese know the language and customs. They are used to the life of "gaman", "honne" & "tatemae", etc. Whether they like them is moot. Just because they are used to these things automatically makes life easier for them than for foreigners.

I respectively disagree as I know more than a few Japanese who wish they never had to do the "gaman", "honne" and "tatamae" thing, but do it only because it is expected of them even though it frustrates the hell out of them especially if they have lived in the states for a considerable amount of time. Just because they HAVE to follow them, it does NOT make life any more easier for them. In fact, the opposite seems to be more the truth even for those few (that I know) that have never been to a foreign country, but are a little more cultured on life outside of Japan than their fellow countrymen/women.

Personally, as I've said before, even though I may be fluent in the language and culture and have lived there for many years, I can play the game and have, but I like being a foreigner where it is not expected of me to understand all there is to know of Japanese culture and I can act on it if I choose to.

It's comforting, in a strange way, knowing I have that option since I already know, and understand, that I will not be accepted, nor do I want/desire to and, I also know it will not be expected of me outside of my closest friends and relatives. With them I do play the game because it is expected of me.

Either way, IMO, it is much easier to live in Japan as a foreigner if one can overcome the fact that they will never be considered a Japanese person even if they have become a citizen. Round eyes will never equate to Japanese for the Japanese even if they were born there and lived no where else!

 

[Goldiegirl]

Pachipro, just because you don't have to follow traditions etc, and can play the "gaijin card" doesn't make it easier UNLESS you are happy being a forever outsider a perpetual visitor. I wouldn't find that situation easy ever, and never would I want to endure it. I would love to fit in and be a real part of society not forever sentenced to linger in the outer fringes of society, being there but not being included.....

 

[Glenski]

Is that true? I seem to often run into dissatisfied Japanese who wish they didn't have to deal with these factors. Of course I also run into their alter egos, people who couldn't even envision living anywhere else and can't fathom a Japanese national preferring to live somewhere besides Japan.

Fair enough response. There probably are Japanese who don't consider gaman, honne, and tatemae "moot", as I put it. But, I don't think either of us has an inkling as to what percentage they are. Erring on the side of conservatism, I think it's fair to say that the majority don't feel as strongly that way as any foreigner. So, it's therefore easier for them to live here, compared to us foreigners.

Furthermore, foreigners can learn the language and the customs of Japan, so I'm not sure that would make living in Japan much easier for Japanese.

Yes, learning the language makes it easier than not learning it, but despite that (and learning customs), foreigners will almost always be treated differently (usually negatively) compared to the locals. So, you may be perfectly fluent and up to snuff about every nuance about culture, yet still be considered an outsider. Just look at a minor example in Debito Arudou and his continued hassles with human rights despite being a naturalized citizen.

Oh, and just how long do you figure it would take before a foreigner is perfectly fluent in Japanese language and customs? You have to determine that because without such a level of knowledge, you don't have an equivalence. Pretty obvious that it'll take a long time, and during that time, life here is not easier by a long shot.

 

[Mars Man]

But you see, Pachipro san, unless you can show, beyond a majority and reasonable doubt, that your definition and applicable necessity of 'easier' is the more correct one, we can all say that your conclusion is faulty, and to that degree, incorrect.

This is, in fact, the fallacy of the OP, which is, by extension, the absurdity of the question presented. I hope to get term definitions set here, as soon as possible...otherwise anything anyone presents will have practically no adhesive ability--simple a giant free-for-all. Glenski is correct (as I've said before, and has Mikawa Ossan) it's clearly and beyond all question that the answer is in favor of the Japanese national born and raised here!

 

[FrustratedDave]

@ Pachipro, you make it sound like , I emphisise "sound like" the Japanese people will open up and do anything for you and you get away with anything if you play the Gaijin card. Moses parting the red sea comes to mind.

Your definition of easy seems to differ I feel. If playing the Gaijin card is easy, why does it tend to make things harder in most instances, like being in a car bingle. I had a friend who spoke no Japanese who was in a minor car accident, long story short, he had to go back to the police station while they questioned him and the Japanese driver was allowed to go home, sounds like a big hassle to me even though they were not suspecting him of anything and just wanted to get his details correct. And don't say these events are isolated, b/c I don't know how many times I have been asked to fill out forms and the Japanese person next to me proccesed imediately and mine takes 20 mins b/c they are not sure how to put my place of birth into the system or something trivial like this.

Every time I have played the Gaijin card when I first got here I was held up in someway or another, so sure if you don't mind going through all the hassle that comes with it, I suppose you could say it is easier. But before I do, there are things in this society that you get Knocked back just for being a Gaijin (admittedly it is due to the minority of idiots who did not respect the fact that they would be ruining it for the next foriegner that came to Japan, and I believe that some of things the Japanese have every right to deny in some cases)

And was it not you who got arrested for not carrying his gaijin card? Don't see that often with Japanese...

 

[Ashikaga]

@ Pachipro, you make it sound like , I emphisise "sound like" the Japanese people will open up and do anything for you and you get away with anything if you play the Gaijin card. Moses parting the red sea comes to mind.

Your definition of easy seems to differ I feel. If playing the Gaijin card is easy, why does it tend to make things harder in most instances, like being in a car bingle. I had a friend who spoke no Japanese who was in a minor car accident, long story short, he had to go back to the police station while they questioned him and the Japanese driver was allowed to go home, sounds like a big hassle to me even though they were not suspecting him of anything and just wanted to get his details correct. And don't say these events are isolated, b/c I don't know how many times I have been asked to fill out forms and the Japanese person next to me proccesed imediately and mine takes 20 mins b/c they are not sure how to put my place of birth into the system or something trivial like this.

Every time I have played the Gaijin card when I first got here I was held up in someway or another, so sure if you don't mind going through all the hassle that comes with it, I suppose you could say it is easier. But before I do, there are things in this society that you get Knocked back just for being a Gaijin (admittedly it is due to the minority of idiots who did not respect the fact that they would be ruining it for the next foriegner that came to Japan, and I believe that some of things the Japanese have every right to deny in some cases)

And was it not you who got arrested for not carrying his gaijin card? Don't see that often with Japanese...

Pachipuro was able to play the Gaijin Card because he was fluent in Japanese. I don't think your friend was really PLAYING the Gaijin Card as he had no other options.

 

[gaijinalways]

Wow, I got under somebody's skin, I guess.

Let's start briefly witha lot of qualifications. When we look at foreigners in Japan, who are we talking about;

1)Westerners from English speaking countries
2) Zainichi (Chinese and Koreans who were born here)
3) Indians
4) Other Westerners
5) Others (Asians, Polynesians, etc.)
6) Brazilian-Japanese

The largest group is the Zainichi, though some of them are vritually indistinguishable from Japanese as they have a high level of language ability in the local language, as well as look Asian and often carry a Japanese name unless they prefer not to (when this is where the trouble often starts). The Brazilian-Japanese are technically Japanese (half), but they can appear the same or not as their Japanese cousins depending on genetic factors.

With that in mind, I am going to focus on the two other groups 1) and 4) who in a sense, I consider more foreign (as I believe the Japanese do also, but that woulld be another thread topic).

Now we have seen that Pachipro has introduced the 'gaijin card', which can be played regardless of your Japanese fluency. As to when it is more effective, I have no idea, as I generally don't use it. I often do the reverse, play up on making a 'Japanese' decision in some cases when it favors me.

So we need to consider several areas of life when we talk about easily living in Japan;

1) Use of language

2) Help of family members

3)Employment

4)Culture shock

5) Home sickness

6) circle of friends and acquaintances

7) dealing with customs

8) dealing with daily life

9) mental health issues from dealing with honne, tatamae, on, and giri

I need to go teach now, so I will return later today adding a few more categories as well as an explanation of my 'theory'.

 

[FrustratedDave]

Pachipuro was able to play the Gaijin Card because he was fluent in Japanese. I don't think your friend was really PLAYING the Gaijin Card as he had no other options.

Whether you can choose to use it or have no choice, I have rarely seen it actually make life easier. Most things are made harder for a foriegner, from renting and appartment to getting a video card. These are the places where life is made hard.

 

[gaijinalways]

Okay, I'm back.

6) circle of friends and acquaintances

7) dealing with customs

8) dealing with daily life

1) Of course this is going to be easier for Japanese. That goes without saying. That being said, some foreigners do achieve a very high level of fluency here, either because they are good with languages and/or came here at a fairly young age. I have a friend who is a translator, and he is much more comfortable living here than in the US when he visits his daughter living there.

2) This will often be a big issue for many Japanese. For the foreigners, it depends. Some of them might be very independent, so being away from the family turns out to be not much of a deal. In some cases also, some Japanese live far away fom their families and are 'homesick' because of that.

3) This is a mixed bag, though I would say for the foreigners that I am speaking about, we're often doing better than many average Japanese. The problem sometimes is in calculating benefits which quite a few foreigners lose out on, but if they are here on short term expat packages they usually are doing more than okay. As to the educators, it depends. For me the lack of security is maddening sometimes, but the amount of vacation time makes up for it.

4) Of course, the foreigners will probably suffer the most, though again I have seen some displaced 'inaka' people suffering in Tokyo. I sometimes can't differentiate between culture shock and boredom. I get bored living any place too long, probably my nature.

5) This of course is somewhat related to 2), and as I said, I have noticed some Japanese seem to suffer the most, aching for some dish from home. While I do sometimes miss chit chatting with people in stores and places that are less busy, I can't say that I want to move back home just for those things. Even more cable channels doesn't appeal to me as I get more entertainment off the net, which I can access anywhere. But that could be just me, but I think for many of the foreigners that stay here, it's not a big issue.

6) This is where I seem to miss out the most, but it could also be my personality. I make friends slowly, and I have done the same here. The big disadvantage here is that some of my friends have moved away over the last 11 years. Again, Japanese that have moved even within Japan (quite a few of them) make 'real' friends not that quickly, but of course their acquaintances probably far outnumber my own. Not sure if I miss these kind of people, as I still have plenty of workmates, etc. I think for many people who stay here, you make a circle of friends and hang on to them until they leave Japan.

7) This is somewhat related to 8) and 1) as using language usually makes things easier, though not always. My Japanese wife gets frustrated with the way many things work here, whether she understands the language or not.

8) Of course, sometimes it is difficult to distinguish between 7) and 8), but 8) is something you must do whereas 7) is something you could choose to follow/do. Of course you can also take the lazy way out and have your wife do some of those day to day things.

So what's the answer? Well of course there isn't a clear one, something I tried to point out earlier. And if you think there are no cultural issues involved here, I am surprised that anyone would think that. The whole topic seems culturally related.

 

[Dogen Z]

I'm surprised that most of the posters here who I thought were long time residents don't seem to realize that Japan has a very different society from where they came from. Pachipro had the most incisve reply to the OP. Japan's cultrue is quite different from Western culture, not simply limited to a different language and few quaint customs. Their cultural beliefs demand a degree of self suppression that most Westerners would find unbearable. "On," "giri," "tatemae," and "honne" are real pressures that Japanese society demands from its people. Japanese society also has a tendency to rank everything and everyone. So people are constantly trying to maintain or improve their ranking. If you've noticed, such ranking plays an important part of the language. Ranking involves education, occupation, professional affiliation, income, etc.
Foreigners are, of course, exempted from these pressures (except for ranking but that's for another thread). They do face the same problems that foreigners in any country face but, IMO, it is not as harsh as the daily pressures Japanese face. Speaking for myself, I'm having a rather good time , but I can imaging foreigners who are living near the bottom of the social scale are have an extremely trying time. (But why would they come here to live at that level? They can easily do that at home.)

 

[orochi]

Foreigners are, of course, exempted from these pressures (except for ranking but that's for another thread).

You're joking, right?
Maybe some foreigners are exempt, but so are some Japanese.

 

[Haruspex]

You're joking, right?
Maybe some foreigners are exempt, but so are some Japanese.

Would you explain that please? As someone rather far away from Japan, I'd like to hear about that.

 

[Mars Man]

Good !! We finally have a good thread going, one in which we are starting to get terms defined and explained, so as to have a standard of understanding (consistency in base) upon which our presentations can be measured in equal degrees. I hope you can see that, gaijinalways san, and make every effort to stick to it.

The OP gives us the following:

For whom is it easier to live in Japan; foreigners or Japanese?​

Post number 34 gives us:

So we need to consider several areas of life when we talk about easily living in Japan;​

In the most specific and chronologically correct order, these are two different contingencies, and I had chosen the first as being the most applicable in the practical sense.

To be easy to live here, requires the ability (allowance) to live here as its most fundamental base. To live here easily, on the surface, requires having first been allowed to live here--as above. For that reason, the allowance is definitely primary.

All things thus are dependent upon the decision of the political state that Japan is, and this state most practially allows especially those born through those who have been born here, to live here autonomically. Because it is easier for those born here by those born here (maybe to the next generation) to live here than those not born here by those not born here (maybe to the next generation) most people here, by far, are Japanese nationals. (A random cross sample space throughout all the territory of Japan will quickly draw that out.)

Therefore, in the most practical and chronologically correct order, it is easier for Japanese to live in Japan than it is for non-Japanese to live here. The OP allows this argumentation simply due to its lack of context and text. I really hope we all remain careful in this regards--OP quality.

 

[FrustratedDave]

I'm surprised that most of the posters here who I thought were long time residents don't seem to realize that Japan has a very different society from where they came from. Pachipro had the most incisve reply to the OP. Japan's cultrue is quite different from Western culture, not simply limited to a different language and few quaint customs. Their cultural beliefs demand a degree of self suppression that most Westerners would find unbearable. "On," "giri," "tatemae," and "honne" are real pressures that Japanese society demands from its people. Japanese society also has a tendency to rank everything and everyone. So people are constantly trying to maintain or improve their ranking. If you've noticed, such ranking plays an important part of the language. Ranking involves education, occupation, professional affiliation, income, etc.
Foreigners are, of course, exempted from these pressures (except for ranking but that's for another thread). They do face the same problems that foreigners in any country face but, IMO, it is not as harsh as the daily pressures Japanese face. Speaking for myself, I'm having a rather good time , but I can imaging foreigners who are living near the bottom of the social scale are have an extremely trying time. (But why would they come here to live at that level? They can easily do that at home.)

How on earth can you come to that conclusion in only a few posts made.
I don't know who you are reffering to, but I would like to know who?

As for your second part I have put in bold. Have kids, join the Jichikai and so on then see how you are judged on all those things you have suggested by the neigbours. You need more experience here before you can be calling out long term foriengers.

Like I said earlier, the longer you stay the more difficult it becomes. Can't have a good time for the rest of your life once you have dependents.

 

[Pachipro]

But you see, Pachipro san, unless you can show, beyond a majority and reasonable doubt, that your definition and applicable necessity of 'easier' is the more correct one, we can all say that your conclusion is faulty, and to that degree, incorrect.

This is, in fact, the fallacy of the OP, which is, by extension, the absurdity of the question presented. I hope to get term definitions set here, as soon as possible...otherwise anything anyone presents will have practically no adhesive ability--simple a giant free-for-all. Glenski is correct (as I've said before, and has Mikawa Ossan) it's clearly and beyond all question that the answer is in favor of the Japanese national born and raised here!

Pachipro, just because you don't have to follow traditions etc, and can play the "gaijin card" doesn't make it easier UNLESS you are happy being a forever outsider a perpetual visitor. I wouldn't find that situation easy ever, and never would I want to endure it. I would love to fit in and be a real part of society not forever sentenced to linger in the outer fringes of society, being there but not being included.....

My conclusions are not meant to cover all foreigners Mars Man, it is based on my feelings and thoughts and what I have come to accept of Japan and the Japanese and their way of thinking. It is only my opinion and is not meant to convey the impression that everyone should think the way I do. Therefore, I do not think it is faulty. It is just how one understands Japan and her way of thinking.

Without a doubt it is "easier" for the born and bred Japanese to live in Japan if we are talking about everyday life and language and such. I thought the point of this thread was referring to culture and the demands of said culture on the people living there. In that case I still stand behind my feelings in that, because of the demands of the culture on the individual and the stress involved even for the Japanese, the life of a foreigner there is still better in that they do not have to, nor are they expected to, to conform to the traditions and customs even if they become a citizen and lived there for more that 20 years and can speak the language as well as any Japanese born there. Anyone who expects to be accepted by Japanese society as a whole is just kidding themselves and will end up frustrated IMO as, in my liufetime, it will never happen.

No matter what, IMO foreigners will never, ever, be considered Japanese or be wholly accepted except by their closest friends and family and I understand that. Society, as a whole, will not pyschologically accept it. As Mike Cash mentioned in a previous thread,

Japan is a "jus sanguinis" (by blood) country....not a "jus soli" (by being born there, like the U.S.) country.

And I might add, by living there for any number of years and speaking the language fluently. Even though his reply was referring to citizenship, I believe it holds true in how Japanese regard "round eyed" people. Therefore, if you do not have Japanese blood, society will not accept you as being "Japanese" regardless of how well you know the language or culture or your status. They will always look at you as a "gaijin" and will be amazed that you can even use chopsticks even after they know you have lived there for many years.

Was it not Maciamo, a former admin here who, having become fluent in the language and customs, left Japan after three years because he was so frustrated at never being fully accepted and always being looked at as a perpetual "gaijin"? In my eyes he was probably more Japanese than many Japanese and, even though he had a very firm grasp of the language and customs, he could not get over the fact or come to accept that he would never be accepted as "one of them". As with many foreigners, he thought that because he was fluent, understood the language and customs and could "play the game" he should be accepted and could not quite grasp the concept that, unlike the US or Europe, in Japan, "if you don't look like us, you could never be one of us"

It seems to be ingrained in the Japanese psyche. How many times have we seen threads of "Do the Japanese address you or you Japanese wife/friend, gf, bf, etc?" or "Why do Japanese address me in English when I am speaking fluent Japanese?" or "Why do the police only stop me and hassle me when Japanese are given a free pass?"

It is because we do not look like them and after 35 years of dealing with Japan and the Japanese, outside of your immediate family, it will never happen.

In my younger years, yes, I did play the "gaijin card", but I also learned and and finally accepted the fact that it is no use getting frustrated or angry at not being fully accepted as one of "them" because no matter how fluent I was or how I adhered to customs and tradition I was still considered the "henna gaijin" (weird foreigner).

Today, I do not play the "gaijin card", but when in Japan I have confidence in my speaking ability and adherence to customs and traditions and rarely encounter any problems. I expect to be stopped by the police, though it has not happened in more than twenty years. I expect to be turned down for an apartment when I finally move back permanently, I expect to be ooohed and ahhed at when I speak and use chopsticks or say I prefer to sleep on a futon etc.

So, can I live there till the end of my days being the perpetual outsider and never being fully accepted as Goldiegirl asked? Yes I can and I will probably enjoy it much as I have in the past because I can still live a full life in Japan with the knowledge that I will never be considered one of them even though I will probably be creamated and interred in Japan.

Anyone who has lived in Japan for any length of time (like more than 10 years) probably has come to understand this. Many will never accept it, but a few maybe will or have, like myself do and will have as rewarding a life there as they would in their own country. With all its frustrations and all the hoops gaijin have to jump through, I, personally, much prefer living there than where I presently am.

 

[gaijinalways]

Pachipro,

I am surprised that this is one of the few times you have seemed to read my mind, quite literally. I agree with what you say, and I quite emphasize with Maciamo who gave up on being accepted here. It is a very rare individual who is fully accepted here and given a Japanese name. I think Patrick Lafcadio Hearn is one of the few that I know of.

Marsman posted

So we need to consider several areas of life when we talk about easily living in Japan;
In the most specific and chronologically correct order, these are two different contingencies, and I had chosen the first as being the most applicable in the practical sense.

To be easy to live here, requires the ability (allowance) to live here as its most fundamental base. To live here easily, on the surface, requires having first been allowed to live here--as above. For that reason, the allowance is definitely primary.

Since we are talking about foreigners legally living here, I hardly see this as an issue. That and as long as you are gainfully employed (can even be self-sponsoring now) or a permanent resident like myself.

Marsman posted

All things thus are dependent upon the decision of the political state that Japan is, and this state most practically allows especially those born through those who have been born here, to live here autonomically. Because it is easier for those born here by those born here (maybe to the next generation) to live here than those not born here by those not born here (maybe to the next generation) most people here, by far, are Japanese nationals. (A random cross sample space throughout all the territory of Japan will quickly draw that out.)

This seems a bit wordy here, sounds like you are trying to justify that it is easier to live in a country that you were born in, but I think that primarily makes it easier to 'be here', versus having to move here later. Though there are cases of Japanese born abroad that later move here, but I wouldn't imagine they would be good test cases for MM as they usually are not well adjusted here.

Marsman posted

Therefore, in the most practical and chronologically correct order, it is easier for Japanese to live in Japan than it is for non-Japanese to live here. The OP allows this argumentation simply due to its lack of context and text. I really hope we all remain careful in this regards--OP quality.

Again, based on what? That they have a Japanese passport? As I said earlier, I wasn't sure who would have an easier time living here for all concerned, but I think for me and people like me, it is easier for us to live in Japan than Japanese.

If you only looked at numbers (as you seem to be doing), then of course we would think it is easier for Japanese to live here as there are more Japanese here (but this also has something to do with the immigration controls in this country).

But that's like saying that when there are more Spanish speaking individuals than Polish-Americans in the US, the Spanish speaking residents will have an easier time living there? I would hardly come to that conclusion from just a numbers perspective.

 

[pipokun]

...
and I quite emphasize with Maciamo who gave up on being accepted here. It is a very rare individual who is fully accepted here and given a Japanese name. I think Patrick Lafcadio Hearn is one of the few that I know of.
...

Please do not mix up the reality and his (Maciamo) role here.

Do you know the non-Japanese community was surprised at the choice, to be naturalized here, of Hearn?
But now some do, some don't.

And do you know he was quite upset about the fair treatment by the J government who decreased his salary to the Japanese standard after his naturalization?

And he was a sort of founding fathers of the Japaneseness.
When someone like Hearn or other non-Japanese points out something about Japan/Japanese,
Good or at least neutral.

When innocent students at eikawa schools repeatedly tell you about the same thing,
Stupid or xenophobia

Life is still tough here.

 

[Glenski]

gaijinalways,
THANKS IMMENSELY for providing some clarification. Ok, we'll deal only with the groups of foreigners you said. Let's see your conditions and answers:

So we need to consider several areas of life when we talk about easily living in Japan;

1) Use of language
I agree.

2) Help of family members
I agree, but remember that Japanese people having Japanese friends in other parts of the same country is a heckuva lot different than a foreigner having foreign friends across the ocean, even if you stay in touch a lot. Costs more to see them, for one thing, and you don't have the opportunity to do it as often.

3)Employment. You wrote: "This is a mixed bag, though I would say for the foreigners that I am speaking about, we're often doing better than many average Japanese."
The average Japanese makes about 420,000 yen/month, according to a recent poll. In terms of income, how does the average foreigner make out? Teaching AND non-teaching jobs, please, in that mixed bag. You also wrote: "The problem sometimes is in calculating benefits which quite a few foreigners lose out on, but if they are here on short term expat packages they usually are doing more than okay." Ok, given. But, we still need to see an all-encompassing average from all sectors. Teachers can be here on short-term status and not even have an expat package!

4)Culture shock
Good, foreigners lose on this one, too.

5) Home sickness
Sorry, gotta disagree. You speak of a few Japanese and "many" foreigners. Let's stick to majorities, ok? Some foreigners have little to no problem, but some have MAJOR issues. How many are in both camps? It makes sense to assume that there are more foreigners suffering than Japanese. Japanese often have the option of moving back home much easier (due to proximity for one, and to the fact of business transfers every 2-3 years for another).

6) circle of friends and acquaintances
Not sure what side of the fence you stand with this one. You seem to conclude with "I think for many people who stay here, you make a circle of friends and hang on to them until they leave Japan." Again, the word "many" crops up. IMO, foreigners often lose their friends from the homeland if they stay here long-term. Always? Heckif I know! But out of sight, out of mind, while even Japanese keep in touch with nengajo with friends from childhood! I gotta say that despite this being a highly personal issue, foreigners stand more to lose from the homeland friends, and it's up to them to make new ones here, and that could be harder. Perhaps if you describe what you meant by the name of this category, we could discuss it better.

7) dealing with customs
The fact that your wife can't stand certain things is a weak argument. Do most Japanese feel the same way or not? Are more foreigners in that boat or not? Just by virtue of having to deal with a different culture, it seems logical to state that foreigners would have a more difficult time.

8) dealing with daily life
Yes, this is a tricky one, and perhaps we need to qualify the difference between it and #7 and not assume that every foreigner will have a Japanese spouse to pawn off some of the daily chores on, ok? Foreigners can slack off on certain social responsibilities in daily life and customs, too, while Japanese will feel more obligated to those responsibilities. Which is "easier"? Gotta define better!
Daily life: shopping can be harder for foreigners, getting a driver's license varies with nationality, dealing with bank loans is harder for us, and just the daily grind of certain discriminatory practices at work is harder on us.
Customs: nengajo? office party obligations? bowing? being courteous? Also, even if a foreigner brushes aside some of these and plays his "gaijin card" thinking he can get away with them, it may be true on the outside, but you can't really say what the true repercussions are from the Japanese they encounter. Example, how do your co-workers REALLY feel when you don't send a nengajo or do what the others do at an office party, etc.? What they say may not be how they feel.

 

[orochi]

Would you explain that please? As someone rather far away from Japan, I'd like to hear about that.

Because Japan isn't like it's made out to be on TV or in books.
It's just like any other country--there's a lot of diversity. It's just on a different scale than you're used to. So what might be extreme in Japan is merely moderate where you are. Etc. etc.
So if you want to fit in, you can. Or you can choose not to. But you have to be flexible and change your methods depending on who you are with and where you are (just like anywhere else on the planet).
This goes for Japanese or non-Japanese.

What they say may not be how they feel.

Wait! So everything I read on Livejournal about Japan might not be true?????
GASP!!!! Weeeeez!

 

[gaijinalways]

pipokun posted

Please do not mix up the reality and his (Maciamo) role here.

Don't worry, I only pointed out how rarely it happens in Japan, a foreigner being fully accepted here and being considered Japanese. Maciamo perhaps would have had to bite his tongue a lot more to reach that state.

glenski posted

THANKS IMMENSELY for providing some clarification.

No worries, we all discuss things differently. I was hoping to get things going before wading in. I have seen many threads start here without the long intros that a few people became famous for.

Glenski posted

2) Help of family members
I agree, but remember that Japanese people having Japanese friends in other parts of the same country is a heckuva lot different than a foreigner having foreign friends across the ocean, even if you stay in touch a lot. Costs more to see them, for one thing, and you don't have the opportunity to do it as often.

2)family members and 6)friends are different. I would also take issue with the definition of fiends that is loosely applied in Japan sometimes. I definitely agree though, if both are farther away it makes it tougher to see them unless they are the traveling types or often come to Japan on business. I know sometimes when I had friends in the state that lived far away (when I was living there), I sometimes would see them as often as I do now!

Glenski posted

3)Employment. You wrote: "This is a mixed bag, though I would say for the foreigners that I am speaking about, we're often doing better than many average Japanese."
The average Japanese makes about 420,000 yen/month, according to a recent poll. In terms of income, how does the average foreigner make out? Teaching AND non-teaching jobs, please, in that mixed bag. You also wrote: "The problem sometimes is in calculating benefits which quite a few foreigners lose out on, but if they are here on short term expat packages they usually are doing more than okay." Ok, given. But, we still need to see an all-encompassing average from all sectors. Teachers can be here on short-term status and not even have an expat package!

Are you including the NEETs, parasite children, and the freeters? I think that would bring the average Japanese income down a lot. Remember, generally foreigners that are like that here are either married to a rich honey, live with others (there is a reason they are called parasites) or are forced to leave the country.

How short a term are you thinking? Like the one year contracts I keep getting?

Glenski posted

5) Home sickness
Sorry, gotta disagree. You speak of a few Japanese and "many" foreigners. Let's stick to majorities, ok? Some foreigners have little to no problem, but some have MAJOR issues. How many are in both camps? It makes sense to assume that there are more foreigners suffering than Japanese. Japanese often have the option of moving back home much easier (due to proximity for one, and to the fact of business transfers every 2-3 years for another).

I don't know either, as a lot of the foreigners who have big issues usually leave or try to come for shorter periods of time. I'm not sure there are more foreigners than Japanese suffering. As I hinted at before, a lot of Japanese seem to have 'local' blood raging in their veins. They seem to get a lot more homesick than I do. Remember some of these people are the same ones who get homesick 1 week out of the country!

As to the transfers, those are not a given, and certainly may be farther away than closer in some cases. Didn't you ever wonder why so many wives seemed to be 'merry widows'?

I'd like to add a 9th category as well, mental health. I really do think that a lot of Japanese area lot more stressed out. Of course this is difficult to prove, but let's compare the % of foreigners who die from karoshi or who become hikikomori? And it comes down to what we were talking about earlier,

Ocean Dude posted

"On," "giri," "tatemae," and "honne" are real pressures that Japanese society demands from its people. Japanese society also has a tendency to rank everything and everyone. So people are constantly trying to maintain or improve their ranking. If you've noticed, such ranking plays an important part of the language. Ranking involves education, occupation, professional affiliation, income, etc.

So these kinds of things tend to have people mentally over-processing on status markers. I know there are people like that in every country, but it's much more prevalent here.

Glenski posted

6) circle of friends and acquaintances
Not sure what side of the fence you stand with this one. You seem to conclude with "I think for many people who stay here, you make a circle of friends and hang on to them until they leave Japan." Again, the word "many" crops up. IMO, foreigners often lose their friends from the homeland if they stay here long-term. Always? Heckif I know! But out of sight, out of mind, while even Japanese keep in touch with nengajo with friends from childhood! I gotta say that despite this being a highly personal issue, foreigners stand more to lose from the homeland friends, and it's up to them to make new ones here, and that could be harder. Perhaps if you describe what you meant by the name of this category, we could discuss it better.

As I mentioned earlier, quality and your definition of friendship is probably quite different from the average Japanese. My wife sees some of her friends that live 2 hours away, perhaps 2-3 times a year. Supposedly everyone is busy. As to meeting 1 -2 times a year, yet you really know very little about them, how friendly is that (ex. a students tells me he is close to his brother, and I ask, "Oh what does your brother do?", and the student answers "I don't know?!" )???

Glenski posted

7) dealing with customs
The fact that your wife can't stand certain things is a weak argument. Do most Japanese feel the same way or not? Are more foreigners in that boat or not? Just by virtue of having to deal with a different culture, it seems logical to state that foreigners would have a more difficult time.

No, I was just pointing out to another poster that just because you're from a country doesn't mean you like all the customs. The difference is, I can more easily try and adjust my behaviour than a Japanese person can who may keep repeating the 'Shoganai' mantra and (and wondering why things change so slowly).


Glenski posted

8) dealing with daily life
Yes, this is a tricky one, and perhaps we need to qualify the difference between it and #7 and not assume that every foreigner will have a Japanese spouse to pawn off some of the daily chores on, ok? Foreigners can slack off on certain social responsibilities in daily life and customs, too, while Japanese will feel more obligated to those responsibilities. Which is "easier"? Gotta define better!
Daily life: shopping can be harder for foreigners, getting a driver's license varies with nationality, dealing with bank loans is harder for us, and just the daily grind of certain discriminatory practices at work is harder on us.
Customs: nengajo? office party obligations? bowing? being courteous? Also, even if a foreigner brushes aside some of these and plays his "gaijin card" thinking he can get away with them, it may be true on the outside, but you can't really say what the true repercussions are from the Japanese they encounter. Example, how do your co-workers REALLY feel when you don't send a nengajo or do what the others do at an office party, etc.? What they say may not be how they feel.

Since when is being obligated easier (I feel a bushido moment coming on)? But how is that different, people not saying what they feel? That's usual with women, in Japan and elsewhere.

I know, I Know, pawning off chores on others is so..so..don't worry..I'll think of something to call it. But I do still wash the dishes and take out the garbage, so maybe I'm not getting out of much.

Discrimination, yes this is one that never goes away. But remember it works two ways, kind of like the god and dog experiences.

But a big thanks to Glenski, he's always a stickler and makes me think.

 

[Glenski]

Are you including the NEETs, parasite children, and the freeters? I think that would bring the average Japanese income down a lot. Remember, generally foreigners that are like that here are either married to a rich honey, live with others (there is a reason they are called parasites) or are forced to leave the country.

All I'm doing is quoting what I saw on the news about 6 months ago. Who can say what people were included in the survey? I think they were referring only to FT workers, which yes, may include parasite singles and such, but it is about the only round average figure you can get as an official fact to go on. We still make less, I think.

How short a term are you thinking? Like the one year contracts I keep getting?

I make no definitions about this. What do you think? You talk about foreigners having it "easier", but make no other qualifications. Perhaps we should define that foreigner as one who is here for life, and then save our discussions for specific breakdowns with people who have been here 5 years or less, and more than 5 years. Could just as easily be 3 years if you want to consider people who may have gone through at least one 3-year visa renewal.

I don't know either, as a lot of the foreigners who have big issues usually leave or try to come for shorter periods of time. I'm not sure there are more foreigners than Japanese suffering. As I hinted at before, a lot of Japanese seem to have 'local' blood raging in their veins. They seem to get a lot more homesick than I do. Remember some of these people are the same ones who get homesick 1 week out of the country!

I thought we were referring to people in country, not out. Yes, people may not like having the transfers away from their home town, but neither of us can truly say just how strong those feelings are. All I can say in defense is that Japanese are more prone to "gaman" and "shoganai", so by that virtue alone, they can take it better than we foreigners who live thousands of miles from home.

I'd like to add a 9th category as well, mental health. I really do think that a lot of Japanese area lot more stressed out. Of course this is difficult to prove, but let's compare the % of foreigners who die from karoshi or who become hikikomori?

You know as well as I the answer to that, but it is a skewed point since the vast majority of foreigners don't even get placed in those situations. Yes, that makes it easier on us, but is mental health limited to that statistic alone? Culture shock certainly enters into the equation.

As I mentioned earlier, quality and your definition of friendship is probably quite different from the average Japanese.

Agreed. Most foreigners, because of their culture, have a different concept than most Japanese. Just seeing friends is one thing, too. With email and phones and nengajo, some Japanese can feel perfectly content calling people "friend" that way for ages.

As to meeting 1 -2 times a year, yet you really know very little about them, how friendly is that (ex. a students tells me he is close to his brother, and I ask, "Oh what does your brother do?", and the student answers "I don't know?!" )???

LOL. Yup, I hear you! However, I think that point is a little different from whether they consider themselves close or not. Have had many students (housewives) who couldn't answer the same question!

Glenski posted
No, i was just pointing out to another poster that just because you're from a country doesn't mean you like all the customs. The difference is, I can more easily try and adjust my behaviour than a Japanese person can who may keep repeating the 'Shoganai' mantra and (and wondering why things change so slowly).
Glenski posted
Since when is being obligated easier (I feel a bushido moment coming on)? But how is that different, people not saying what they feel? That's usual with women, in Japan and elsewhere.
I know, I Know, pawning off chores on others is so..so..don't worry..I'll think of something to call it. But I do still wash the dishes and take out the garbage, so maybe I'm not getting out of much.
Discrimination, yes this is one that never goes away. But remember it works two ways, kind of like the god and dog experiences.
But a big thanks to Glenski, he's always a stickler and makes me think.[/QUOTE]

re:customs

The difference is, I can more easily try and adjust my behaviour than a Japanese person can who may keep repeating the 'Shoganai' mantra and (and wondering why things change so slowly

Well, that's you. Many (again, an undefined percentage) foreigners don't adjust. And, the shoganai from Japanese can be not a stressful response, you know. It can just as easily be a self-defense cultural mechanism that causes no pain at all.

Re: daily living

Since when is being obligated easier

Perhaps mine was a poor choice of words. Not obligated but accepting. Like I just wrote above about shoganai. Mind you, this is just a foreigner's perspective on the Japanese perspective. I don't think either of us knows enough to say either way, but this thread is just an opinion piece anyway.

Discrimination, yes this is one that never goes away. But remember it works two ways, kind of like the god and dog experiences.

Perhaps 2 ways. Not sure what you mean. However, the discrimination here (when the foreigners perceive it, of course) is one-way against foreigners. Can't get around that. Japanese are not told they can't enter bathhouses, or that their jobs are contract only, or that they can't rent apartments because their food stinks, etc.

But a big thanks to Glenski, he's always a stickler and makes me think.

And, thanks in return for not blowing up over my remarks. I try to debate civilly and rationally. Yours is a very difficult topic without much in the way of survey data to help us. (And, I'm sure you know what I mean when I say that I find Japanese statistics less than adequate to represent reality in lots of cases anyway.)

 

[gaijinalways]

Totally agree with you Glenski, my theory has little statistical data offered so far in support. I'm not sure if I have the time or inclination to pull up the dirt now, so to speak. But I will start digging.

Glenski posted

All I'm doing is quoting what I saw on the news about 6 months ago. Who can say what people were included in the survey? I think they were referring only to FT workers, which yes, may include parasite singles and such, but it is about the only round average figure you can get as an official fact to go on. We still make less, I think.

If you include the parasites, some of who are not working at all, the average income would drop quite a bit (and even more when we add in NEETs as they are sinmply unemployed).

Glenski posted

I make no definitions about this. What do you think? You talk about foreigners having it "easier", but make no other qualifications. Perhaps we should define that foreigner as one who is here for life, and then save our discussions for specific breakdowns with people who have been here 5 years or less, and more than 5 years. Could just as easily be 3 years if you want to consider people who may have gone through at least one 3-year visa renewal.

Probably it would be better to look at people here who finished at least three years so as not to skew data with people who just study here or quickly leave as they find they can't cut it.

Glenski posted

I thought we were referring to people in country, not out. Yes, people may not like having the transfers away from their home town, but neither of us can truly say just how strong those feelings are. All I can say in defense is that Japanese are more prone to "gaman" and "shoganai", so by that virtue alone, they can take it better than we foreigners who live thousands of miles from home.

But if people are more prone to doing something, does that mean they like it? Yes, the strength of a feeling such as homesickness is hard to measure, I've just relating what I've heard from a few thousand students.

Glenski posted

You know as well as I the answer to that, but it is a skewed point since the vast majority of foreigners don't even get placed in those situations. Yes, that makes it easier on us, but is mental health limited to that statistic alone? Culture shock certainly enters into the equation.

They don't get placed in them or they don't allow themselves to be placed in those situations? Subtle difference, but one that says a lot about the influence of free will and a sometime rejection of an essence of group dynamics that is often harmful to individuals.

Glenski posted

Agreed. Most foreigners, because of their culture, have a different concept than most Japanese. Just seeing friends is one thing, too. With email and phones and nengajo, some Japanese can feel perfectly content calling people "friend" that way for ages.

So as I said, are they really friends, someone you can count on when the chips are down?

Glenski posted

And, the shoganai from Japanese can be not a stressful response, you know. It can just as easily be a self-defense cultural mechanism that causes no pain at all.

But I would claim in a way it does harm them, as it perpetuates the idea in some cases that things are beyond our control, when sometimes they obviously are not. There is a big difference between can't be bothered because I see no relation to you and/or no benefit in doing something and doing something that will help both parties (the doer and the receiver), but may irritate some others.

Glenski posted

Perhaps mine was a poor choice of words. Not obligated but accepting. Like I just wrote above about shoganai. Mind you, this is just a foreigner's perspective on the Japanese perspective. I don't think either of us knows enough to say either way, but this thread is just an opinion piece anyway.

True opinion piece, but I think for many Japanese they feel truly obligated, and they often feel weighed down by these obligations to such an extent that they over-rationalize them. Hence you get karoshi, and social drop outs, people who can't deal with the many obligations thrust on them by Japanese society.


Glenski posted

Perhaps 2 ways. Not sure what you mean. However, the discrimination here (when the foreigners perceive it, of course) is one-way against foreigners. Can't get around that. Japanese are not told they can't enter bathhouses, or that their jobs are contract only, or that they can't rent apartments because their food stinks, etc.

Those two extremes of treatment are what Charisma man and the foreign celebrity encompass (on the great end) and what the overt rejection of applications for housing, etc represent on the other end. I am sure you have encountered this in some situations, in some cases you are treated like a god, in others you are treated like man's best friend. The treatment rarely falls into the between categories, though I think Japan sometimes does better than when I was living with the Chinese in Hong Kong.

 

[orochi]

If you include the parasites, some of who are not working at all, the average income would drop quite a bit (and even more when we add in NEETs as they are sinmply unemployed).

Why would you include the unemployed in a survey of the employed?
If you pull out the non-working Japanese, then you have to pull out the non-working non-Japanese. Then you have to adjust for population size differences.

The likely result is that in Japan, the average Japanese person is still making more than the average non-Japanese person.

I am sure you have encountered this in some situations, in some cases you are treated like a god, in others you are treated like man's best friend. The treatment rarely falls into the between categories

Anybody still taking this guy seriously?