For anyone who is interested in trying to fight Climate Change

[bentenmusume]

I have no idea if anyone in this thread is a trained climate scientist, but assuming that the answer is no, I think there's some degree of hubris in thinking that brainstorming here from information gleaned by Google-based research is going to result in some grand, fundamentally game-changing solution to the issue of climate change that's never occurred to anyone before.

Some of the best scientists in the world are and have been researching this issue for years and have already reached a number of conclusions about what needs to be done, so it strikes me that the best thing the average Joe or Tarou can do is to (1) vote for people who will enact these fundamentally vital policies, (2) be mindful of their own consumption, and (3) to the extent possible, convince others around them to also do both (1) and (2).

If you're determined to try to do more than that, more power to you (especially if you have the scientific training and background to give you some particular insight into these things). But as far as I'm concerned, a complete layman like me looking into the prospect of launching balloons into the sky and whatnot is unlikely to add much to the conversation.

 

[cloa513]

Hello Everyone and thanks for having a look at my post,

I started a thread two weeks ago about Climate Change, and kind of "got off on the wrong foot." So I have started this new thread, and I would ask you to please have a look at the following guidelines before you choose to write something.

1. This purpose of this thread (discussion) is not to "debate" whether climate change is real or not. I am a believer and I don't want to waste time arguing with others. Anyone who doesn't agree with my position is more than welcome to discuss it on a new thread they could create, titled something like, "Any Climate Change Skeptics out there?"

2. I am hoping to meet others who have ideas about how to solve the problem. Yes, as others posted on my previous thread, beach clean ups are a wonderful idea. What I am looking for are other members on the forum, who have themselves been involved in some kind of environmental activism here in Japan, or in their home country. If you have no personal experience in this area, but know someone who has, either in Japan or elsewhere, I would still be very much interested to hear from you.

3. So again, I ask that you please refrain from writing to me if you want to know what my "plan" is or "vision." I don't have one, but I do know the problem is immense, and the more people working on it, the better.

I thank you in advance for your cooperation and hope this discussion can generate some ideas…

Sincerely


PatPaul

What is the problem? Did weather exist before climate chsnge? What do you believe?

 

[PatPaul]

Hello,

Thank you for the post. Well I started a thread a year ago, received some replies, and then nothing, so I felt the issue was dead. Someone wrote in to say not to take it too personally since this forum does not get much traffic. I think in my previous posts I stated my position about climate change quite clearly. My hope was that it would open up discussion about ideas, possible solutions, how to raise awareness...and not a debate about whether it is real. If you, or anyone else wants to pursue such a debate, by all means, just do it on another thread. I made attempts to raise awareness about the issue and organize something in my city, but I was not successful. I too, am not a scientist, or an expert on abrupt climate change/ anthropogenic climate change/climate disruption. I am a concerned parent of two young kids. I don't have all the answers. I think any scientist or engineer worth his/her salt will admit that they really don't know if carbon sequestration or carbon capture will work, since it has yet to be tested on a large scale basis, as is the theory of "The Sixth Mass Extinction" yet to be proven (though many claim we are in the midst of one), but there are signs that we are headed there.

So if you want to know what I have attempted to do here in Shikoku, feel free to send me a personal message, and I will share my personal experience. I certainly made lots of mistakes and not a lot of friends along the way. I applaud the efforts what others are doing in Tokyo, Osaka...

PP

 

[TGI-ECT]

What is the problem? Did weather exist before climate chsnge? What do you believe?

cloa513, you have sort of touched on something that has a fair number of folks wondering.

This planet has its rules for doing things. We human types are such insignificant players in the game, but when we are provided information from non-scientists we are given the impression that we humans are the source of all that is bad.

And the journalists and their bosses also seem to want to slant things in such a way to make everything the fault of the human.

Let us take the recent publication of information about a huge amount of methane coming out of an area in the Sudan.

Surge in Global Methane Emissions Traced Back to East African Wetland

e360.yale.edu

The second paragraph:
< < < Copy Starts > > >
Researchers estimate that wetlands in Africa's tropics could account for up to a third of the spike in global methane emissions between 2010 and 2016, with most of this coming from the Sudd. The South Sudanese wetland is one of the largest freshwater ecosystems in the world, covering an estimated 22,000 square miles.
< < < Copy Ends > > >

The last paragraph:
< < < Copy Starts > > >
Scientists have long debated the cause of the recent increase in methane emissions, which first spiked in 2007 and again in 2014. Some have attributed it to agriculture and the expansion of the natural gas industry. Recently, more attention has been given to the role of trees, especially in tropical wetlands, as a major source of methane.
< < < Copy Ends > > >

Now, do we have a whole mess of these advocates of gloom and doom and change-you-dirty-humans discussing this latest information about our planet?

I do not see a sudden surge in discussions about this latest information and the reason I suspect is because it does not fit in with the bottom line of "change-you-dirty-humans" and we can see throughout history how that is a very human style of communications. Stay with the "gloom and doom" and steer clear of anything at all that doesn't fit with what is these days the key thing "Humans Are To Blame!"

I suppose them dinosaur types were to blame for that piece of rock to slam into Earth and we'll soon find out how them dinosaur types were a whole bunch smarter than we thought and they were responsible for all that climate change. Nope, Planet Earth can't cope with things Herself. And now She is at the mercy of the awful humans.

It is kind of fun to watch that message being plastered all over the place. Humans are an interesting bunch of animals. Probably more interesting than them dinosaur ones.

Of course, there is a need to study and worry, but to think we are so tough that Mother Earth can't dump us whenever she wishes --- well, that is cute.

And, Lothor, might you wish to offer your thoughts on this?

Recently, more attention has been given to the role of trees, especially in tropical wetlands, as a major source of methane.

 

[TGI-ECT]

I have no idea if anyone in this thread is a trained climate scientist, but assuming that the answer is no, I think there's some degree of hubris in thinking that brainstorming here from information gleaned by Google-based research is going to result in some grand, fundamentally game-changing solution to the issue of climate change that's never occurred to anyone before.

Some of the best scientists in the world are and have been researching this issue for years and have already reached a number of conclusions about what needs to be done, so it strikes me that the best thing the average Joe or Tarou can do is to (1) vote for people who will enact these fundamentally vital policies, (2) be mindful of their own consumption, and (3) to the extent possible, convince others around them to also do both (1) and (2).

If you're determined to try to do more than that, more power to you (especially if you have the scientific training and background to give you some particular insight into these things). But as far as I'm concerned, a complete layman like me looking into the prospect of launching balloons into the sky and whatnot is unlikely to add much to the conversation.

bentenmusume, some mighty interesting humans have come up with some mighty game-changing discoveries over the years and I suspect that will remain true.

I don't think it is necessary to create a list of all those game-changing discoveries, is it? Nor to then segregate the humans that came up with game-changers that were in fields that were not in their own area of expertise?

And that reference to Google and research --- I get the sense that there is some meaning there of a nature to reduce the significance of research done using what Google presently provides us.

I mean, I remember the days when I had to do my research in a library, and even then I would have to be in a really good library.

Or the days when I would have to track down a particular human to ask a very specific question of that human to help me with my own research.

It seems to me there are a whole mess of advantages to using what we can these days using the Net and what companies can provide us on the Net, to include Google.

Of course, getting a sense of feeling from simply reading words is not --- well, maybe I am not right. Maybe you did not mean to belittle research using Net tools.

The thing is, for whatever reason, the answers are not coming out of the agenda we are being told to follow. It seems to me that if you are not finding the answers after decades of preaching certain answers, we better start looking in some new place for the solution.

It might just be that some crazy idea does provide the answer. I don't think it would be the first time in human history that has happened.

And I have consulted a few folks in the business of science and not one of them has stated that my very rough idea is a completely hopeless line of thinking. But all of them have stated to me that I better work harder and figure out what is going on in my crazy brain. And all of them over the past few weeks have been pointed to this thread.

Just because I haven't been posting here does not mean I haven't been working. And I still am using Google's product, among others.

 

[TGI-ECT]

Please forgive me, everyone. I shall try and make my case in a different manner.

It has been asked of the people of Earth to change their ways so as to fix the problem of global warming. This has been asked of the people of Earth over and over and over by all sorts of people. It is not working. Meaning, the people of Earth are not collectively doing what is being asked of them. And there are so many reasons why it is not working that nobody wants to list them.

Isn't it time to come up with something that will work?

Of course, it is the human that got us into this mess. Well, humans, the plural form. And so many humans that no one human can be blamed. Nor can any single group of humans be blamed, although that is a favorite technique that some folks like to use. They state it is the rich humans that did the bad thing. And that is hogwash. Those were not rich humans many, many years ago that burned coal to stay warm in winter.

Frankly, it is sickening how there are these people with some sort of distinction that want to tell us it is the rich people that are to blame.

And if they wish to persist in that nonsense then I have a question for those people of distinction: Do you use jet aircraft to get around the planet?

It is time to start looking for the solution that will work. We cannot get millions of people around this planet to change their ways in time to fix this problem. So what are we going to do to get through this?

My whole point here is we start looking for another way to solve the problem.

Now we could try sending out signals to some older and more sophisticated civilization on another planet far away to come and save us from ourselves.

Or we could start looking for something completely new.

That is the point of this thread --- something completely new.

Now if you folks that want to persist in pushing what has not been working want to keep on with that, fine. No problem. You go on out there to those millions of Chinese and tell them why they can't use coal like some folks did 100 years ago and good luck to you. But my gut tells me it ain't gonna work.

So I am looking for something completely new.

And China is just one example. We can find the same problem all over this planet.

Of course, Mother Nature or Mother Earth may take care of the problem themselves by popping off a few seriously nasty volcanos, but I suspect most humans wouldn't much care for that.

I think we ought to show Mother Nature and Mother Earth that we can use the brains they gave us to fix this problem ourselves and in order to do that we better find a new path. The one we've been on has not been working.

 

[TGI-ECT]

- - - - - truncated - - - - -

My hope was that it would open up discussion about ideas, possible solutions, how to raise awareness...and not a debate about whether it is real. If you, or anyone else wants to pursue such a debate, by all means, just do it on another thread.

- - - - - truncated - - - - -

I am confused, PatPaul. What member of our Community has posted here that they do not agree that there is a problem?

And I'll thank you in advance for your response - - - thank you.

 

[Lothor]

So I am looking for something completely new.

See bentenmusume's excellent comment on hubris. The solutions are out there but are not being implemented.

 

[cloa513]

I am confused, PatPaul. What member of our Community has posted here that they do not agree that there is a problem?

And I'll thank you in advance for your response - - - thank you.

What is real? Still not answered. That is there is always been climate change but a lot of what is reported as climate change is the normal. For instance, Australia- a country of droughts, flooding rains and high temperatures- always been that way. Japan- cold and wet and has typhoons- always had that.

 

[TGI-ECT]

Lothor, is it incorrect to be looking for other solutions while also trying to get billions/millions of people to wake up and initiate the necessary steps to fix the problem?

You want to just stay on a road that is leading us to ... well, where is it leading us?

Do you, Lothor, drive an automobile of any sort? I do not think even an electric motor is that great because how is that electricity you use generated?

Do any of you participating in this discussion drive any sort of automobile? Scooter? Motorcycle?

I gave up driving around in my own vehicle a very long time ago and that means I have implemented some manner of change in my own lifestyle to help. I have engaged in other changes. But it is obviously not enough.

So what is wrong with thinking outside the norm? What are all of you so afraid of that when you run into somebody thinking outside the box that you need to take out your hammers and slam that individual down until she/he shuts up? Or goes away? It doesn't fit with your own views so let us slam that jerk TGI-ECT into the ground until he shuts up!! Right?

There is a fine lady that wrote a piece a few months ago, and although she is herself part of the problem in the political sense, I still pay attention to what she writes. I don't toss her on my trash heap because I think she is part of the problem. She is also part of the solution. A human can, in fact, be both.

Here is what I am referring to:

The challenging politics of climate change | Brookings

What will it take to effectively fight climate change?

www.brookings.edu

Ms. Elaine Kamarck
Founding Director - Center for Effective Public Management, Senior Fellow - Governance Studies

You will come across a paragraph in her piece that is way down at the bottom:

< < < Copy Starts > > >

Some people, recognizing the political problem, hope for a technological fix such as carbon capture or some other geoengineering fix. The problem with technological fixes is that they are remote and may very well not be effective in time to stave off massive amounts of social and economic disruption. On the other hand, early-1950s America faced what seemed to be an endlessly heartbreaking polio epidemic; in less than a decade, however, a vaccine was developed and the epidemic ended. Given the technological miracles seen in our lifetime, we should not dismiss a technological solution, and we should invest heavily in one with both public and private dollars.

< < < Copy Ends > > >

Unfortunately, even a fine personage as Ms. Elaine Karmarck is cannot but help to inject politics into her writings, and that is one area where a problem exists.

But if you wish to contact her:

Elaine Kamarck

Elaine C. Kamarck is a Lecturer in Public Policy who came to the Kennedy School in 1997 after a career in politics and government. In the 1980s, she was one of the founders of the New Democrat movement that helped elect Bill Clinton president. She served in the White House from 1993 to 1997...

www.hks.harvard.edu

But I draw out that single paragraph to emphasize a point she makes:

The problem with technological fixes is that they are remote and may very well not be effective in time to stave off massive amounts of social and economic disruption.

The problem with your answers everyone, is they are not being implemented and they also may not be effective in time to stave off massive trouble. But you want to stay with your own answers and shoot anyone that doesn't conform to your own views exactly as you wish, right?

I mean, that is all I am seeing in this thread - - - Bang-Bang-Bang at TGI-ECT because he is crazy and won't conform to our absolutely positively guaranteed only way to fix the problem!!!

 

[Lothor]

"So what is wrong with thinking outside the norm? What are all of you so afraid of that when you run into somebody thinking outside the box that you need to take out your hammers and slam that individual down until she/he shuts up? Or goes away? It doesn't fit with your own views so let us slam that jerk TGI-ECT into the ground until he shuts up!! Right?"

No need to be melodramatic. An enormous amount of work has been done on finding solutions. Here's a list of 100 solutions ranked in order of impact, all of them can be clicked on for details.

Table of Solutions | Project Drawdown

www.drawdown.org

Some of the highest ones in the list, people can get on with starting from their next meal (No.3, reduced food waste, No.4, plant-rich diet). Others require no technology whatsoever (No.6, educating girls, No.7 family planning). Tackling climate change is a huge multidimensional problem that involves major changes in our personal habits and our whole philosophy about how we look at the planet (try reading Jeremy Lent, The Patterning Instinct, though it's not an easy read), leadership from governments and international organisations, and making many very difficult choices about what how we are going to allocate our resources.
People have been working on this for decades, yet you come along, without any apparent qualification in science judging by the way you were trying to describe a chemical reaction a few weeks ago, suggesting that we start looking for new chemicals. I'll stop there and after this I'm going to put you on ignore because your fetish for thinking you know better than people who've spent a career looking into stuff (be it climate change, typhoon courses, or whatever) suggests you're not going to listen or have the humility to admit your ignorance.

 

[TGI-ECT]

So now we are being specific in our posting of our views, correct? TGI-ECT is ignorant and to be ignored. Wow, did I forecast that one coming, or not? I love when folks write like that. And you even tossed in something about Mother Nature's typhoons. My goodness, the public service I have just performed is priceless. But I do feel sorry for you, Lothor. I sincerely do. You see, you are part of the problem to get people to accept that climate change is a real issue that requires serious thought. Serious thought in multiple directions. Too bad. Very sad. You poor human being. You had the wrong teachers. So sad.

 

[TGI-ECT]

By the way, Mister Lothor, you have now isolated Ms. Kamarck, as well:

Given the technological miracles seen in our lifetime, we should not dismiss a technological solution, and we should invest heavily in one with both public and private dollars.

Looks like you're going to have to put her on your "Ignore." list, too.

 

[bentenmusume]

This thread has taken a rather depressing turn. It'd be nice to be able to debate ideas on their own merit without things devolving into name-calling and personal attacks.

For what it's worth...

Maybe you did not mean to belittle research using Net tools.

No, my intention was not to "belittle" the very idea of internet research. And I am not denying that there have been times in human history where great discoveries were made by ordinary people by accident.

That said, it strikes me that there is a limit to how far one can reasonably take that idea. Doctors and medical researchers have been working to find a cure for cancer for decades, and have yet to succeed. Shall we start a thread here and see if we can't hit upon something that they may have missed?

I'm not trying to be sarcastic here—I honestly don't see how the two situations are different. Climate change is an incredibly complex issue. Thousands, even tens of thousands of the world's best scientists have been working for years, and continue to work—in labs with access to cutting-edge research and technology—to find an answer to it. Even granting that the average person has access to an incredible database of knowledge these days thanks to the internet, it strikes me as somewhat naive and presumptuous to propose that a hobbyist looking into the issue in their spare time might succeed in finding a solution to one of the major crises defining our time that has somehow escaped the experts for years.

Again, I don't know your background. Perhaps you have experience (either professional or through extensive self-study) that gives you unique insight into the situation. In that case, more power to you, I suppose. Speaking for myself, my own experience has told me that it is difficult enough to accomplish great things in fields or disciplines that I have trained my entire life for, let alone those that I only dabble in in passing (or not at all).

It is time to start looking for the solution that will work. We cannot get millions of people around this planet to change their ways in time to fix this problem. So what are we going to do to get through this?

My whole point here is we start looking for another way to solve the problem.

I also find this attitude somewhat defeatist and potentially dangerous. "Humans haven't changed their ways (enough), ergo they (most likely) never will. Ergo, searching for another way to solve the problem is inherently more productive."

How exactly does this follow? The current generation is more environmentally conscious than ever. Look at Greta Thunberg. The main reason we're still in this situation is because all over the world, we still have governments and ridiculously powerful corporations run by greedy old people who care more about maximizing their billions than leaving a healthy Earth to future generations.

We absolutely could make a difference, and quickly, if political and business leaders across the world got together in a room with the best climate scientists, actually listened, recognized the level of urgency, and agreed to enact fundamental, massive, sweeping changes (that were then properly enforced) for the sake of our planet's future. This is what scientists have been urging for decades, and continue to urge today.

Also, the mindset that we need to start "looking for another idea" is predicated on the idea that such a solution exists. You seem to acknowledge that the current situation is the result of the combined actions of billions of people over countless years. Is it not just possible, but highly, highly probable that the solution will also require a concerted effort on a worldwide scale?

Again, I'm honestly not trying to be sarcastic or insulting here. I'd love to wake up one day to this headline:

ARMCHAIR SCIENTISTS ON INTERNET FORUM SOLVE GLOBAL CLIMATE CRISIS
Groundbreaking Chemical Compound Reverses Decades of Pollution, Renders Traditional Climate Science Obsolete

But to me, given all the evidence out there, that and hoping for an alien race to come down and save us from ourselves (an idea which you rightfully mock) strike me as equally [un]likely to happen. And I can't help but feel that it's a bit dangerous and irresponsible to promote the idea that this "magic wand" solution is out there somewhere, let alone is somehow more worth working toward than doing what we already know has to be done.

 

[TGI-ECT]

You state you are not trying to be sarcastic with an enhancer --- "honestly" --- from the English language, and then you post that bit immediately below that in bold font and an increased font size and ...

Isn't there a word in English that defines that? I think the soft one would be duplicity.

Why don't you take your thoughts to some university where there are some very serious folks working overtime in labs to try and find a "technological solution" as Ms. Kamarck stated it.

I guess you think that all that money being spent and all those scientists are just bovine excrement type humans that also need to be shot down with your non-sarcastic language, right?

Not trying to be sarcastic, eh?

And, of course, your feelings are so strong that you have sent correspondence to Ms. Kamarck, as well?

In fact, I suggest you start writing to a whole mess of universities around the planet and inform the scientists and administrators that they are all wasting time and money and that they should come to JREF and read your mighty words of wisdom and take due note of the resident idiot here at JREF identified by the tag TGI-ECT.

 

[TGI-ECT]

The truth, though, is you folks are providing the general public an outstanding lesson here in this thread.

You see, the way you are treating me is exactly the style that riles your average citizen on this planet.

If that human does not conform to and completely agree with your views you start with the soft style of verbal abuse upon that human and then it just gets worse and worse until that particular human walks away in disgust.

That is exactly what has happened here and it is an outstanding sample of it.

And we have been seeing this style now for over ten years and it is steadily getting worse and worse and there are a whole mess of humans that are flat out disgusted and so you are doing harm to the cause with that style.

And now I have provided you with an extra insult you can throw onto the table --- armchair psychologist.

Heh, I know what --- how about I am an armchair human. Now that is a neat title to pin on me.

Anyway, this thread is an outstanding educational piece.

You know what is really interesting? Not one of you have offered technical reasons why my idea that was roughly stated will not work. (Please note that vocabulary "roughly stated".) You just toss around insults and then state you aren't intending to be insulting, but you are not yourself being in the least bit technical. Of course, you'll have some further insult to explain that and on and on and on.

Yep, very educational.

 

[bentenmusume]

I'm afraid that I'm going to have to bow out of this conversation as well.

I enjoy debating and writing and sometimes, yes, being a bit facetious. "Duplicity" is a very strange word to assign to someone for having a bit of fun in making a point.

At the very least, I don't believe there is anything intellectually dishonest about anything I've said.

And no, I haven't sent correspondence to any of those people, because, as I said, this is not my field and I do not believe myself qualified to comment definitively about the science of this debate, and would rather leave that work to trained professionals.

I have not once called you an idiot, nor insisted that I am dispensing "mighty words of wisdom" from on high. I thought I was making a very pragmatic point about the merits of listening to the scientific consensus, but perhaps that's been lost somehow.

In any event, apparently you don't like my tone, and it has led you to have negative impressions on me as a person. I'm sorry about that, because I actually kind of enjoyed debating you.

But I'm not here to make enemies, so I think I'll just move along. Have a good day.

 

[TGI-ECT]

But I still hold that you have a fine writing ability, bentenmusume, even though you slipped a bit in your last two posts. You'll get better. I make that point because I sense the Internet has been sending people in the opposite direction with regard to writing skills. Many folks get worse when they spend a fair amount of time on the Net.

And that is important in this topic, because getting the message right is the only way to get people to sell their cars.

I didn't notice any answer about my question related to your personal vehicles, folks --- by the way.

Gonna sidestep that one, eh? Doesn't fit in with that image you want to paint of me, does it? So you ignore that.

Wait! Some of you are ignoring me completely.

EDIT: And now that word "enemy" arises. My goodness, you folks are rather amazing. Enemy - - - GOOD GOSH.

 

[bentenmusume]

Sorry, I'm just going to have to add a few more things.
I don't appreciate having words like "abuse" and "duplicity" heaped upon me simply for trying to debate ideas.

I've done my best to be diplomatic and to address only the substance of your argument and not you as a person. I don't know you as a person. Why would I have any motivation or grounds on which to attack you?

Honestly, up until these last few posts I honestly enjoyed your writing style and the back-and-forth we were having on this and the other thread, even if we didn't see eye-to-eye. (And even if your compliments of my writing ability are starting to feel a bit condescending.)

I'm not sure what happened along the way that you felt the need to take my words as a personal attack and respond in kind, but I'm sorry for the both of us that it happened.
Like I said above, I'm not here to make enemies, so I think I'm just going to step away for a bit.

And that is important in this topic, because getting the message right is the only way to get people to sell their cars.
I didn't notice any answer about my question related to your personal vehicles, folks --- by the way.
Gonna sidestep that one, eh? Doesn't fit in with that image you want to paint of me, does it? So you ignore that.
Wait! Some of you are ignoring me completely.

I haven't owned a car since coming to Japan fifteen years ago, and have only flown on the average of once every three years since then, and only when it was required by my job.

I'd also like to add that not everyone here has the time to respond to every point of every post in every discussion, so it's a bit disingenuous to point fingers and accuse people of "ignoring" you, when it's possible they just haven't had the time or inclination.

 

[thomas]

After consulting with the OP we have reopened the thread. We ask all participants to keep it civil and respectful and to stay on topic.

Thank you.

 

[Lothor]

Thanks Thomas.

TGI-ECT - I sincerely apologise for my harsh reply.

In the spirit of the title of the thread, this is a very well researched and nuanced article on reducing the environmental impact of everyday living, what has a positive impact on reducing your carbon impact and what doesn't isn't always intuitive.

The practical ways to reduce your carbon footprint (that actually work)

Want to know how to reduce your carbon footprint? It's more complicated than you may imagine

www.wired.co.uk