Figurative Japanese

[VerbalEssence]

I'm curious as to what the Japanese use to make abstract comparisons between objects, actions, or attributes? Say like a simile or a metaphor or a abstract statement.

So take a statement like....."Make you fold like clean clothes" or "As I walk through the valley of the shadow of death" or "I'm as sharp as a thumb tack"


Essentially, I'm trying to figure out what they use for "like" or "as"

I've heard that for similes and such, the terms used are either -mitai or -noyou

 

[Angel Valis]

Well, I'm not sure about all cases, but one way of saying "like" is <A>のような<B> which translates as "B like A".

Therefore 私のようなだれか means "someone like me".

There are ways of expressing similar actions as well, but I don't particularly recall them at the moment (I was just glancing ahead in my book, which is unfortunately not next to me at the moment).

Also, みたい is like the verbal form of adjectival そうです in that it means "seems like".

An example that I remember from my book:
田中さんは今日はをみがかないみたいです。
It seems Tanaka-san hasn't brushed her teeth today.

みたい follows the plain/short form of a verb, and often (though not always) refers to things of a visual nature.

そうです is similar in that it means "seems like" (though there's more than one form of this word that has a different usage), and is used after adjectives.

それはおもしろそうですね。
This seems interesting huh?

そうです in this usage follows い-adjectives after dropping the final い, and after な-adjectives, dropping the な. I want to say it can be used after nouns as well....but I've not used it in awhile (geez I need more practice).

The adjective いい is irregular in this usage and becomes よさそうです

For negative forms such as おもしろくない, drop the い of the final ない, and add さそうです, therefore おもしろくない becomes おもしろくなさそうです.

I believe そうです simply follows past positive forms in the plain/short form...but again I'm blanking a bit.

[EDIT:] Oh, そうです is also only used for conjecture, if you're looking at a white sheet of paper it's wrong to say しろそうです because you can plainly see that the paper is white. However, it does fit to say something like あの女の人はきれいそうです, "That woman seems beautiful", if she's far enough away so that you can't really tell for certain.

 

[Toritoribe]

Essentially, I'm trying to figure out what they use for "like" or "as"
I've heard that for similes and such, the terms used are either -mitai or -noyou

まるで～, ～（の）ような/ように, ～みたいな/みたいに, ～に似た/似て, ～（の）如く/如き、、、

Thre're some words for similes, depending on the context/sentence structure.

 

[VerbalEssence]

hmmm
after doing some research, it looks like most similes use a combination of -marude and -noyou

My question now is, previously I was asking about similes in regards to adjectives and describing the attributes of a person, but how about a simile describing an action?

Sort of like "put your flame out like a fireman" or something of the sort. Does a similar construct apply?
So like... anta no ka ha marude shouboushi no youni hikeshi (fukikeru)
あんたの火はまるで消防士のように吹きける

 

[Toritoribe]

Right. ～ように/～みたいに or the adverbial form can be used for the case.

消防士[しょうぼうし]のように火[ひ]を消[け]す
消防士[しょうぼうし]みたいに火[ひ]を消[け]す
消防士[しょうぼうし]の如[ごと]く火[ひ]を消[け]す

 

[Glenn]

Here's one: 悪い夢でも見てるようだぜ。

 

[VerbalEssence]

is it possible to ditch some degree of formality and leave out the "anta no ka wo marude" portion?

so with just this alone:
消防士[しょうぼうし]のように火[ひ]を消[け]す

would it say something along the lines of put flames out like a fireman?

 

[Toritoribe]

Here's one: 悪い夢でも見てるようだぜ。

Oh, right. ～（かの）よう（だ） is for "it's like~". ～のように is more likely for "do an action like~".

is it possible to ditch some degree of formality and leave out the "anta no ka wo marude" portion?

so with just this alone:
消防士[しょうぼうし]のように火[ひ]を消[け]す

would it say something along the lines of put flames out like a fireman?

あなた[anata] would be needed in some context, but 火 is not read as "ka" as a single word. Plus, "anta" sounds very rude. As for "marude", it's not a set phrase, so you can omit it.

 

[Glenn]

oritoribe's versions are the right ones. They all mean to put out fire like a fire fighter. As far as I can tell, anta no ka doesn't make any sense, unless you're talking about someone's mosquito or their scent (although probably かおり is far more common for this one). 火, when used alone meaning "fire", is read ひ (hi), as is glossed in those sentences.

[Edit] Beaten to the punch again.

 

[VerbalEssence]

interesting.....
am i to assume that more artistic forms of japanese don't follow the traditional rules of grammar? say like....poetry or song lyrics

 

[Glenn]

Well, I think that's generally the case in any language, but what specifically are you talking about?

 

[Toritoribe]

And isn't it generally called metaphor, not simile?

 

[Glenn]

We can look at some actual lyrics:

一（ひ）、誰か僕の
二（ふ）、火を消して
三（み）、飛ばしてくれ
四（よ）、イエイエ
http://music.goo.ne.jp/lyric/LYRUTND52793/index.html

From the first chorus of 修羅（しゅら）by Does.

 

[VerbalEssence]

My fault for not being more specific.
What I meant to ask is does it deviate from the usual grammar rules of Japanese by a lot? Like the grammar rules for more artistic Japanese are so different that it's impossible for a non-native speaker to make use of it, or does it generally follow the original with a few lapses in formality and stuff?

And no, I meant simile. Metaphor would be a direct comparison without any go-between and I frankly don't know enough Japanese or Japanese culture to even begin to attempt that.


by the way, on a completely unrelated note
can no limit be said as genkai-nai? or does it have to be genkai ga nai?

EDIT: actually screw it, I'll just post the full question here

僕のきのうはげんかいがない
だからたたかいをいどむはあぶない

"My skill has no limit, therefore challenging me is dangerous."

That's what those 2 lines are supposed to say at least......but with my crappy Japanese it probably sounds all funky wierd.

 

[undrentide]

by the way, on a completely unrelated note
can no limit be said as genkai-nai? or does it have to be genkai ga nai?

EDIT: actually screw it, I'll just post the full question here

僕のきのうはげんかいがない
だからたたかいをいどむはあぶない

"My skill has no limit, therefore challenging me is dangerous."

That's what those 2 lines are supposed to say at least......but with my crappy Japanese it probably sounds all funky weird.

限界（げんかい）がない is grammatically OK and can be understood, but normally people would use 無限（むげん）の／無限（むげん）だ. （無限 means limitless)

機能（きのう） means function, and I do not see the whole picture but as far as I see your sentences, it may not fit for the context.
Maybe 力 (ちから＝power or strength in general)?

だからおれにたたかいをいどむのはあぶない
たたかいをいどむ alone may not be clear "to whom".
おれ is a very mannish "me" in colloquial speech.
And you need nominalization for たたかいをいどむ (verb) using の.

 

[VerbalEssence]

限界（げんかい）がない is grammatically OK and can be understood, but normally people would use 無限（むげん）の／無限（むげん）だ. （無限 means limitless)

機能（きのう） means function, and I do not see the whole picture but as far as I see your sentences, it may not fit for the context.
Maybe 力 (ちから＝power or strength in general)?

だからおれにたたかいをいどむのはあぶない
たたかいをいどむ alone may not be clear "to whom".
おれ is a very mannish "me" in colloquial speech.
And you need nominalization for たたかいをいどむ (verb) using の.

I see....so....

おれの力がむげんだ
だから、わたしにたたかいをいどむのはあぶない

 

[Toritoribe]

My fault for not being more specific.
What I meant to ask is does it deviate from the usual grammar rules of Japanese by a lot? Like the grammar rules for more artistic Japanese are so different that it's impossible for a non-native speaker to make use of it, or does it generally follow the original with a few lapses in formality and stuff?

It completely depends on the type of the stuff (song lyrics, poem, waka, haiku,,, and/or abstract, concrete...) as same as in many other languages, as Glenn-san wrote.

おれの力がむげんだ

おれの力は無限だ

 

[VerbalEssence]

It completely depends on the type of the stuff (song lyrics, poem, waka, haiku,,, and/or abstract, concrete...) as same as in many other languages, as Glenn-san wrote.
おれの力は無限だ

I see, well, I'm aiming for song lyrics.

By the way, is it possible or practical to use -noyouni and -mitai together as a comparison/ simile?

So if I were to say "Your days are numbered like a calendar"
カレンダーのようにみたい
よめいいくばくもない

Grammatical accuracy aside, would that simile even work in Japan? I know it works perfectly fine in English, but do cultural differences throw a wrench in the works for Japanese?


On a different note, for that previous simile (Put your flame out like a fireman)
Rather than 火を消す can I use 火消し instead? According to JDIC, both mean the same thing. Or is there some grammatical/ contextual problem?

 

[Toritoribe]

By the way, is it possible or practical to use -noyouni and -mitai together as a comparison/ simile?

No, they can't be used together. のようにみたい would be interpreted as a completely different meaning; ～のように見たい or "to want to see like~".

So if I were to say "Your days are numbered like a calendar"
カレンダーのようにみたい
よめいいくばくもない

Grammatical accuracy aside, would that simile even work in Japan? I know it works perfectly fine in English, but do cultural differences throw a wrench in the works for Japanese?

Well, I have to say no. カレンダー can't be a common comparison to "finite/limited" in Japanese. 今年のカレンダー might work in some context, though.

On a different note, for that previous simile (Put your flame out like a fireman)
Rather than 火を消す can I use 火消し instead? According to JDIC, both mean the same thing. Or is there some grammatical/ contextual problem?

火消し is a noun, "fire fighting" or "fire department/fire fighter(in Edo period )", so you can't.

 

[VerbalEssence]

No, they can't be used together. のようにみたい would be interpreted as a completely different meaning; ～のように見たい or "to want to see like~".
Well, I have to say no. カレンダー can't be a common comparison to "finite/limited" in Japanese. 今年のカレンダー might work in some context, though.
火消し is a noun, "fire fighting" or "fire department/fire fighter(in Edo period)", so you can't.

christ on a crutch, this is like borderline impossible.....stupid language barriers......

I was hoping the calendar comparison at least would work since the days on a calendar are in fact numbered.....but jeez....

Perhaps I should ask you guys for examples of similes/ comparisons that you guys found to be extremely witty and creative and try starting from there?

 

[Glenn]

To be honest, I find that the calendar thing doesn't really work in English either.

If you want to write good, artful, literary, (whatever) Japanese, you should first read lots of literary Japanese (poems, novels, whatever), and get a feel for what's good and what isn't (or at the least, what you like and what you don't). It's the same as trying to be a good writer in any language. It looks like you've finally arrived at that conclusion with this last post, sort of. It'll take more than reading a few hundred witty similes, I believe.

 

[VerbalEssence]

To be honest, I find that the calendar thing doesn't really work in English either.

If you want to write good, artful, literary, (whatever) Japanese, you should first read lots of literary Japanese (poems, novels, whatever), and get a feel for what's good and what isn't (or at the least, what you like and what you don't). It's the same as trying to be a good writer in any language. It looks like you've finally arrived at that conclusion with this last post, sort of. It'll take more than reading a few hundred witty similes, I believe.

A calendar has a number(1-31 or 1-28/29) for each day of the month. Hence the comparison is not with "limited days" but rather the numbering of the days. "Your days are numbered" is merely a point of reference.

But that's besides the point, I'm merely asking for a bunch of similes so I can have some sort of reference to look to and experiment with.

 

[Glenn]

But "numbered" in this instance doesn't refer to being graded and labeled with numbers, it means "limited". In that sense, it doesn't feel right to me, because I don't think of calendars as limited (aside the point as it may be).

I still suggest just reading lots and lots of novels and such, because even things you'd think would be perfectly safe, like "the girl of my dreams" don't work in Japanese (at least I'm pretty sure that's the one I had shot down by one of my teachers). Plus, I don't even know where to begin looking for a list of similes. But since I hadn't ever learned the word for it in Japanese (直喩 or 明喩, apparently), I looked it up and there were some listed there. Here they are:

柳のように美しい眉
静かなること林の如し
雪のように白い
ひょうたんに似た形
死ぬほど退屈
海のように深い愛情

So there's a starter set.

 

[VerbalEssence]

But "numbered" in this instance doesn't refer to being graded and labeled with numbers, it means "limited". In that sense, it doesn't feel right to me, because I don't think of calendars as limited (aside the point as it may be).

I still suggest just reading lots and lots of novels and such, because even things you'd think would be perfectly safe, like "the girl of my dreams" don't work in Japanese (at least I'm pretty sure that's the one I had shot down by one of my teachers). Plus, I don't even know where to begin looking for a list of similes. But since I hadn't ever learned the word for it in Japanese (窶卍ｼﾅ｡g or 窶督ｾﾅ｡g, apparently), I looked it up and there were some listed there. Here they are:

窶禿ｶ窶堙娯?堙ｦ窶堋､窶堙俄?敕ｼ窶堋ｵ窶堋｢窶敕ｻ
ﾂ静??堋ｩ窶堙遺?堙ｩ窶堋ｱ窶堙??氾鯛?堙娯?戞窶堋ｵ
ﾂ静｡窶堙娯?堙ｦ窶堋､窶堙俄?昶?吮?堋｢
窶堙絶?堙･窶堋､窶堋ｽ窶堙ｱ窶堙嫁ｽ窶披?堋ｽﾅ蛋
ﾅｽ竄ｬ窶堙岩?堙吮?堙??佚樞?ｹﾃｼ
ﾅ?C窶堙娯?堙ｦ窶堋､窶堙可深窶堋｢ﾋ?､ﾂ湘ｮ

So there's a starter set.

Awesome thanks

Judging from my shoddy translation of those similes, the first and last similes appear to be in line with what I'm aiming for. The last simile is exactly what I'm looking for in fact.

That said, do the Japanese have a term for "deep". Not deep as in ocean because that's what I'll be comparing it to, but rather deep as in a profound and intricate idea or concept?

 

[Toritoribe]

Awesome thanks
Judging from my shoddy translation of those similes, the first and last similes appear to be in line with what I'm aiming for. The last simile is exactly what I'm looking for in fact.
That said, do the Japanese have a term for "deep". Not deep as in ocean because that's what I'll be comparing it to, but rather deep as in a profound and intricate idea or concept?

You can't use 海 as a simile of 深い when it means "intricate." Thus, 海のように深い（＝複雑な/入り組んだ）意味 doesn't make sense. 海のように深い only indicates the "depth" of ocean, not the "complication."