Do foreign soldiers in Afghanistan have honor?

[Mark of Zorro]

Knowing that there will be innocent casualties doesn't mean that they're targeting them.

And assuming that they aren't is called "mindreading".

I have seen so much mad rage over drunk drivers, despite the fact that most get home just fine. I have seen drunk driver's labeled murderers out of hand, even though the intent of most was obviously not to kill anyone, and they usually don't. But lob a missile into a house where a family is known to live, and flatten that house with the express hope of killing one single occupant, and the excuses pile up like a mountain! What madness is this?? Nationalism? Love of war? Just plain madness??

How can anyone call drunk driving negligence if destroying a house without checking whose inside is just a part of war that we must do and we could not guess the outcome anyway?

our tactical planners aren't sitting around a table discussing things like "Gee, what could do we so that more innocent people die? After all, that's the whole reason we've spent billions on mobilizing our forces and putting their lives in danger!" That'd just be unrealistic and stupid.

Thing they ask themselves is how they can complete objectives in the most politically expedient way possible by circumventing the rules if necessary. Or how they can use the ends to justify the means. Or shoot now, clean up the mess later, and suffer little to no fallout for it. Your characterization is way, way off of anything I have said and that is another big reason why I am sick of talking with you.

I am talking about negligence so blatant and extreme there is no practical difference between it and targeted murder.

Sometimes, no, not at all. But a lot of the time, it sure trumps dropping a nuke, or flattening a whole city to eliminate an extremely dangerous target.

An extremely dangerous target??? Lilke WHO??? OBL was (apparently) kicking for ten years after 9/11. Extremely dangerous?? You talk like he nearly destroyed the world!

There is not a man that ever lived who was so dangerous that nuking him would have been the safest option, because that would have made enemies of the entire world!

By the way, do you still think that the enemy is completely unaware of their surroundings? They operate in populated areas for a reason.

Funny how you act like a mind reader with that. Here comes the human shields $#!T again.

11 Afghans Killed in Military Actions Near Pakistan Border (Published 2013)

Both targets had to travel some distance to get to the one man's relatives' house. Both men were out of their fighting regions. The U.S. killed 5 kids 8 to 13 by just blowing up the house. If the Taliban did the same to an American officer visiting his family in America you would not say anything remotely like what you are trying to tell me.

And we have good reason to believe that this sort of drone strike is typical, despite the U.S. government trying to hide all the information (as if that in itself is not a crime that proves guilt of the other crime! Its even more solid reasoning that how they pinned the blame on OBL for 9/11! All he said was that most hijackers did not know the plan was to crash the planes. Foreknowledge? Or a simple deduction? But that was the proof!)

Your trust is about as misplaced as me trying to pull your brainwashed head out of your hydrualic clamped @$$.

 

[Mark of Zorro]

Sure. And you'll never have any evidence that can even imply that sort of motive.

This. I would need a mutha fuggin crystal ball for that! For the love of CHRIST! Would you STOP bringing up scenarios requiring IMPOSSIBLE burdens of proof then act all smug cause its IMPOSSIBLE to deliver?? Just knock this stupidity off please!

No I CANT say anyone had it in their mind to target innocents. Or even the guy on the target list! For all I know, they didn't like the color of the house!!! I don't read minds!!

All I know is, that there is a point where negligence is so freaking waaaaaaay out of control, that there is is no practical difference between manslaugher and murder anymore, and even courts of law will assume intent.

And guess what? That is exactly the type of concept "our strategic planners" struggle to manipulate, knowing most people will fail to fully appreciate what those murderous bastards are doing.

 

[Hezam]

BTW, i've read about many Afghani wedding parties turned into funerals by NATO's aircraft.
Ofc the NATO can see the difference between wedding party and killing group !

 

[Tamayo]

And assuming that they aren't is called "mindreading".

I just can't understand how you think that people needed to be priority targets to have died. With that sort of thinking, you may as well just say that the US intended to kill the soldiers it sent over as well. I totally understand that there are accidents and even blatant cases where innocents' lives were thrown away carelessly, but to say that the entire motive is to kill innocent people is just extreme and wholly unrealistic. It'd be after ridiculous ideas like that where I start asking you for your proof.

How can anyone call drunk driving negligence if destroying a house without checking whose inside is just a part of war that we must do and we could not guess the outcome anyway?

I'm not talking about drunk driving. You're comparing apples to oranges, anyhow.

Thing they ask themselves is how they can complete objectives in the most politically expedient way possible by circumventing the rules if necessary. Or how they can use the ends to justify the means. Or shoot now, clean up the mess later, and suffer little to no fallout for it.

If that's really what you believe, then I've got to ask again, why do you think it is that countries are exhausting copious amounts of money to send in troops and endanger their lives? If it really was indiscriminate killing, wouldn't it stand to reason that nations would take the cheaper route and go nuclear, or bomb cities into the ground one by one?

What I'm bothered by is that you're constantly asserting that the forces which occupy the middle east have NO objectives to save innocent lives where they can, even in spite of the fact that the people being sent over are highly-trained personnel whose duties include determining friends from foes. After all, you don't have to send a hydrogen bomb through years of training, offer benefits, and pay to go to college.

I am talking about negligence so blatant and extreme there is no practical difference between it and targeted murder.

What I do know is that the tension that has been caused by the war in the middle east has made things a lot more difficult for both sides of the fight. Would you happen to know the actual (estimated or not) ratio of innocents to enemies killed, or maybe accidents to successful missions?

There is not a man that ever lived who was so dangerous that nuking him would have been the safest option, because that would have made enemies of the entire world!

You've missed my point. You not only try to tell me that innocent lives aren't valued by the forces, but even said that they're directly targeted. If that were really the case, the only logical choice for the armed forces would be to go with a cheaper route and just turn the middle east into glass with indiscriminate firepower.

I would need a mutha fuggin crystal ball for that! For the love of CHRIST! Would you STOP bringing up scenarios requiring IMPOSSIBLE burdens of proof then act all smug cause its IMPOSSIBLE to deliver?? Just knock this stupidity off please!

I'm not asking you to prove your conspiracy theories beyond the shadow of a doubt. Then it'd be fact. I'm asking you to to show me WHY I should believe it. So far I don't disagree with the links you've posted. What I do disagree with is the implications you seem to see behind them. Instead of getting bent out of shape over that, maybe you could try reasoning and presenting your case instead of blowing up because I'm not a seasoned conspiracy theorist too.

 

[Kouhia]

Afganithan is one of the biggest broblen to US
They can't leave, because then Talebans thinkin than they win, and that is what we don't want, they just would to do somthing terrible things.
And if thew stay in ther, ther will be terrorisim against US, UN and NATO troops.
And civil victims, you can't be in war without civilian victims.

Everybody makes mistakes, just think about it, think!
You'r not perfect in you job, no one, not even soliders.
Things happens, just accepted. Life is. Somtimes s*it hits the fan.

 

[Chidoriashi]

Interesting. You support the opinion that America should get up and go shoot the Taliban in the head for not being more sensible, but if I suggest the same for people like you, I get bile. You have two faces, and both of them are butt ugly.

this makes no sense, as with most of your extremist drivel.

We are speaking of war, not "all problems".

Yeah, but you come off like you think you know all the answers so I was hoping you would humor us.

But you know, its funny how stupid you can be when trying, and even when not trying. Congratulations.

You know it's funny how you like to preach to others about not caring etc, but all you got is a forum you keep blabbing on, and continue to isolate yourself from everyone else, is that gonna change anybody's mind and help to make a difference? You are an extremist, an uyoku, just like our buddy caster who has a much deeper history in this forum than you probably know.
Hardly anyone, and usually nobody agrees with what you say (about anything), you are so off putting and impossible to have a discussion with. What good are you doing? You gotta be right no matter what, so who cares what anyone else thinks, they are all fools and you got all the answers right? Is their even a point discussing anything with you? Anyhow, your reputation points say it all.. 600 something posts, and squat for anyone who thinks good of you.. that should tell you, and anyone who reads what you write a little something about you...

If any nation really cares about the Afghan people, they can simply open their doors to immigration. Then they can pull the hell out of there.

I really hate to pull you in another direction since you are fighting so many battles with pretty much everyone on this forum, but how is this really a solution? Do think it is just that easy for anybody to just up and leave their country, their culture? Everybody who is innocent will just pile into America from Afghanistan so this war can be fought against the enemy with honor? Once again your wisdom knows no bounds Zorro.

 

[Mark of Zorro]

Do think it is just that easy for anybody to just up and leave their country, their culture?

Well gosh. It sounds easier than living in a war zone, risking getting blown up everyday, with Taliban insurgents liable to shoot you just for opening your door, or a hellfire missile destroy you in your house because it was believed you went to the well everyday to aid the Taliban rather than just get water.

I never said anything was easy. But people become refugees in order to escape death and war all the time. I don't see why you have to be such a negative nancy about making immigration easier so that people can do that.

Everybody who is innocent will just pile into America from Afghanistan so this war can be fought against the enemy with honor?

Why don't you read the bits you cut and paste? What part of "pull the hell out" made you think I meant continue the war?

No, don't bother to admit that stupid error. Just keep jumping my $#!T brainiac.

 

[FrustratedDave]

Yeah, but you come off like you think you know all the answers so I was hoping you would humor us.

Chidoriashi, don't kid yourself, we are dealing with a guy who compares himself with Einstein here.

In response to him implying that his explanation was too hard for me to understand, he stated this.

No. But I am sure you would ask Einstein the same question if he tried to explain relativity to you. "No way!" you would say. "That just can't be right!". (sigh)

So...

 

[Mark of Zorro]

So you are going to side with Chidoridashi on that are you?

Then call me a troll?

Excuse me, but your tie is crooked Dave.



You should try joining the debate and attacking the ideas with reason rather the people with crap accusations, or gee, at least some of both.

Earlier I was speaking of "pull the hell out". Good advice for you too Dave.

 

[FrustratedDave]

No point, the thread is a joke.
I think this sums you up quite well Zoro,

 

[Mark of Zorro]

the thread is a joke.

If so, your jumping in with chidoriashi on that really dumb statement of his is the bigger joke as is your failure to say anything in the last couple posts that could be remotely confused for argumentation.

 

[FrustratedDave]

Blah,Blah,Blah....

 

[Mark of Zorro]

Blah,Blah,Blah....

These are not PMs Dave.

 

[FrustratedDave]

Blah,Blah,Blah....

 

[Mark of Zorro]

Tamayo, first you say:

Sure. And you'll never have any evidence that can even imply that sort of motive.

Then you say:

I'm not asking you to prove your conspiracy theories beyond the shadow of a doubt.

Odd that the pic of Mitt Romney was directed at me, isn't it?

 

[FrustratedDave]

Blah,Blah,Blah....

 

[Tamayo]

Tamayo, first you say:




Then you say:



Odd that the pic of Mitt Romney was directed at me, isn't it?

How do those relate, exactly? One way we're talking about implications, the other, we're talking about scientific proof.

 

[Chidoriashi]

I never said anything was easy. But people become refugees in order to escape death and war all the time. I don't see why you have to be such a negative nancy about making immigration easier so that people can do that.

Yeah, it's is not easy, and realistically most people probably do not want to just up and leave their home. I am sure some are willing to, but country, culture and family tend to mean a lot people, no matter where you are from. Opening doors for immigration is not going to help the majority of innocent people in Afghanistan.

 

[Mark of Zorro]

Opening doors for immigration is not going to help the majority of innocent people in Afghanistan.

Says you.

But its not really the point is it?

The point is keeping innocent blood off our hands. The point is exercising other options without inflaming internal conflicts.

Look at how large the Cuban population is in Florida. Why is that? Because it was easy for Cubans to leave Cuba, relatively. If it were made easier for Afghans, possibilities would open.

Maybe you think I am talking about Afghans moving to America only. No surprise since you lot insist on misreading my statements, cramming words in my mouth, etc.

I am talking about getting all coalition countries on board as well as anyone else who will take Afghan refugees, and that includes neighboring countries like Pakistan and Iran (don't start. Iran may well have preferred this to having American troops running around in their neighbor's yard).

and realistically most people probably do not want to just up and leave their home.

Well if they prefer home and the Taliban to emigrating, then who the bloody F are we to go blowing up houses over there that likely have kids in them???

Do you actually believe the choice the everyday people in contested areas of Afghanistan prefer is to be caught between Taliban guerrillas and American bombs?

 

[Mark of Zorro]

How do those relate, exactly? One way we're talking about implications, the other, we're talking about scientific proof.

Right. Sure we are. Because when you say "prove" you mean scientific proof, and when you say "evidence" you mean something else. Or was it the other way around? Not that I have any idea how "scientific proof" got pulled out of your @$$ and into this discussion, as we are not talking about anything scientific here.

No wait. I do know how it got thrown in. You are fronting...again.

Why? Well I suppose I could list some of the more obvious motives for your doing this, covering both intentionally playing with my mind and actually really being that dumb. But why bother? Its all the same to me. Just like the Afghan kids are all just as dead, either way, I am doing nothing but wasting my time with you.

Or maybe you could tell me EXACTLY what you are calling a conspiracy theory and EXACTLY what motive you think you are talking about. Then you could tell me how I am supposed to prove to your satisfaction the motives of a government and military and prove the machinations of the most powerful military/industrial complex in the world?

Tell me what you want EXACTLY to make you believe that the U.S. government and military are NOT a group of purely humanitarian volunteers shedding their life blood for the benefit of Afghan babies, and truly doing all they can to avoid civilian casualties.

Perhaps when I am done I can prove the existence of the Invisible Pink Unicorn for you? Look, I even have a pic!

 

[Chidoriashi]

Says you.

Says me? Says reality! You have no solution here with immigration, try again sherlock!

Look at how large the Cuban population is in Florida. Why is that? Because it was easy for Cubans to leave Cuba, relatively. If it were made easier for Afghans, possibilities would open.

Umm the reality is there are like 11 million cubans and not even a million of them have fled their country and come to Florida..what does that tell you genius?, about your immigration ideas? Maybe like, if you actually look at the numbers you realize you are wrong.. oh shock and awww right? Zorro is wrong about something! Dear god, the world is at an end!

 

[Mark of Zorro]

Says me? Says reality! You have no solution here with immigration, try again sherlock!

So you think escalating the conflict for 11 years of war was the better solution?

Also, I never said immigration was the only or ultimate solution. Just a step among many that would get fewer people killed, more people free and show that these coalition countries actually give a hoot.

Maybe like, if you actually look at the numbers you realize you are wrong..

Oh, okay. So you think that all Cubans chafed under Castro, all 11 million.

Look, America accepted Cubans as political refugees and even allotted over 1 billion dollars for their welfare. But they did not airdrop boats into Cuba complete with a compass and map with U.S.A. circled in red.

A whole lot more could have been done. Those who wanted to leave bad enough did, and there was less loss of life. Imagine if Mexico also opened their doors. Or Jamaica agreed to become a transfer point for refugees to land there then be shipped to America.

In fact the numbers show what even a rather limited immigration policy of one country can accomplish. Imagine one far more robust.

If we can make so many technological terrors at such great expense, yes, I am sure if we really care, we could work out programs to entice freedom loving Afghans to leave Taliban controlled areas.

But hey, I don't expect you do anything but continue being a hostile negative nancy and indirectly defend war and killing babies. Seems to be what you do.

 

[Chidoriashi]

So you think escalating the conflict for 11 years of war was the better solution?

Also, I never said immigration was the only or ultimate solution. Just a step among many that would get fewer people killed, more people free and show that these coalition countries actually give a hoot.

Wow, somebody likes to put words in peoples mouths to sound like less of a mor0n after the fact as usual...

So why have you not outlined all your other solutions for us Einstein? I mean since you have figured out how to solve all the problems of the world, me lord!

Oh, okay. So you think that all Cubans chafed under Castro, all 11 million.

Look, America accepted Cubans as political refugees and even allotted over 1 billion dollars for their welfare. But they did not airdrop boats into Cuba complete with a compass and map with U.S.A. circled in red.

A whole lot more could have been done. Those who wanted to leave bad enough did, and there was less loss of life. Imagine if Mexico also opened their doors. Or Jamaica agreed to become a transfer point for refugees to land there then be shipped to America.

In fact the numbers show what even a rather limited immigration policy of one country can accomplish. Imagine one far more robust.

If we can make so many technological terrors at such great expense, yes, I am sure if we really care, we could work out programs to entice freedom loving Afghans to leave Taliban controlled areas.

But hey, I don't expect you do anything but continue being a hostile negative nancy and indirectly defend war and killing babies. Seems to be what you do.

And, hey I do not expect someone with dimwitted extremist views, and your level of short sidedness to come up with realistic solutions,
Also, I just love how unproven and hypothetical all of what you just wrote is, you do realize this is one of your many fantasies, not actually reality right...? I hope i did not screw up your meds dose for the next few weeks by telling you this...

 

[Mark of Zorro]

Wow, somebody likes to put words in peoples mouths to sound like less of a mor0n after the fact as usual...

I asked you a question. Do you know what a question is? Also, there were two clear choices available and you $#at all over the one I presented.

So, um, you were saying? Oh yeah. Accusing me of putting words in your big mouth. No. Did not not do that.

So why have you not outlined all your other solutions for us Einstein?

Because everyone here quizzing me is stupid and hostile? Trying to explain one idea is quite enough thanks.

And, hey I do not expect someone with dimwitted extremist views, and your level of short sidedness to come up with realistic solutions,

Solution to what? What is the problem?

Did I say I could solve it? Did I even say there was a problem for US to solve? No.

I said if western countries cared so damned much they could.....

See, that is what is known as putting words in people's mouth. That is what you do, not me. I should have not even glorified your straw man with a response. But hell, if I didn't, I would get accused of avoiding questions again.

Also, I just love how unproven and hypothetical all of what you just wrote is,

Unproven to do what? I never said I intended to turn Afghanistan into a ghost town where only tried and true Taliban roam.

And not to even say I approve of the country of this example, but Israel has proven the power of immigration quite nicely, and shown just what lengths people will go to to escape if so motivated.

The Afghans are certainly not Jews, BUT, if they won't emigrate to be free of the Taliban, they just don't want it bad enough. And if they don't want it that much, they SURE AS HELL don't want it bad enough to have us sacrifice their children for it.

Or do you think you see something else there for you to get all pissy about?

 

[Tamayo]

Right. Sure we are. Because when you say "prove" you mean scientific proof, and when you say "evidence" you mean something else. Or was it the other way around? Not that I have any idea how "scientific proof" got pulled out of your @$$ and into this discussion, as we are not talking about anything scientific here.

No wait. I do know how it got thrown in. You are fronting...again.

Why? Well I suppose I could list some of the more obvious motives for your doing this, covering both intentionally playing with my mind and actually really being that dumb. But why bother? Its all the same to me. Just like the Afghan kids are all just as dead, either way, I am doing nothing but wasting my time with you.

I love the way you dodge discussion by going off about two sentences which don't directly deal with the problem at hand. You're extremely skilled in the art of of running.

So in other words, you refuse to accept that you didn't understand what I said and are now going to stomp around like a huge baby focusing only on one point which doesn't even have anything to do with this "discussion". The fact that you can't accept ANYTHING other than your own preconceptions is why you're so annoying to discuss things with. If people say a single thing, significant or not, which you don't agree with in the slightest, you're suddenly hoisting them up onto a cross and throwing a huge fit instead of just getting to the point.

No, I didn't ask for you to prove your radical conspiracy theories without a doubt (because it would otherwise be fact, and common knowledge). I DID, however, ask you to provide some specific information on it and to point to the connections. It's a very simple concept to understand, my friend. There is a colossal difference between looking at the probable truth (implications) and the absolute truth (factual/scientific proof). Keep in mind, in the quote you're whining about, I said "imply". I never said "You'll never be able to prove it without a doubt, so your words are worthless!" I said imply. Look it up. Arm yourself with knowledge. Stop acting like a child and making a fool of yourself.