Do foreign soldiers in Afghanistan have honor?

[Krypteia]

Its a nice catch 22 isn't it? I advocate peace, but my only option to get it is violence. Real nice.

This might just blow your mind Zorro, but if you're in favor of murdering people who disagree with you, you're not a peace advocate in even the most perverse mutilation of the term.

The problem is not my principles, but my power to effect change. I have none.

Thank God for small blessings, I suppose.

I have no influence other than my words, and as you can see, they fall on deaf ears.

...Mainly because your words are semi-deranged.

This is why Michael Paulson writes one post and gives up. People like you are fracking hopeless. Hopeless and deaf.

Look here, Zorro. If you or your fellow hippies had something to say worth hearing, I'd be happy to listen. But when you assert that groups like the Taliban are morally superior to American soldiers, people of good sense tend to glaze out. That ought to tell you something. Rather than posting crackpot drivel and then becoming enraged when people don't listen to you, how about you take your own advice and consider what others have to say. "Learn, dammit."

 

[Hezam]

But when you assert that groups like the Taliban are morally superior to American soldiers,

this is weird, if you think so then why do "Captains" call their soldiers ( Ladies, Idiots, etc etc ) and treat them like animals..when in the other hand Taliban leaders treat their soldiers like " Holy Warriors " and Heroes...they never say bad things to their soldiers ! so tell me what morals are you talking about ?

people of good sense tend to glaze out.

You mean dumb ignorants people ?

 

[Tamayo]

this is weird, if you think so then why do "Captains" call their soldiers ( Ladies, Idiots, etc etc ) and treat them like animals..when in the other hand Taliban leaders treat their soldiers like " Holy Warriors " and Heroes...they never say bad things to their soldiers ! so tell me what morals are you talking about ?

The U.S. Armed Forces use this sort of mentality to promote a conscious "team effort" outlook on the work they do. I don't really understand all of the specifics, but I knew a drill officer who explained the whole thing. I guess the system was developed by psychologists and sociologists alike.

It's not like they're actually trying to get the men to believe they're worthless. The idea is that each individual soldier is just a thread in a giant sheet, so to speak. The idea is to completely remove the "I" aspect from these men and to force them to realize that they can't accomplish anything unless they give it their all, and do it as a team. Bootcamp is hellishly difficult for this reason -- Before the men are conditioned to think solely as a unit, they are yelled at and humiliated whenever they think of themselves or screw up in a way that will cost the whole unit. At first, drill officers come off as sick, heartless people who can only scream and break people down, but what people don't seem to see is the way they revere hard work and the togetherness that they work so hard to instill. It is one of the most effective modes of training to this day.

Most people in the armed forces end up being really close to their drill sergeants. I really don't know why only one side of this conditioning is shown publicly.

 

[Mark of Zorro]

Guys you can't talk reason with someone who is unreasonable. Mark of Zorro continues to mis-quote , twist words and take things out of context and then has the nerve to accuse you of being inconsistent. But, in the area of consistency his ridiculous claims and statements don't seem to end.

So...

View attachment 12211

Accuse me of your sins enough times, some dummies might actually think you are being honest.

 

[Mark of Zorro]

Look here, Zorro. If you or your fellow hippies had something to say worth hearing, I'd be happy to listen. But when you assert that groups like the Taliban are morally superior to American soldiers, people of good sense tend to glaze out.

Where did I say the Taliban was morally superior to American soldiers???

And Dave accuses ME, yet again, of twisting people's words. Seems that you, as well as Dave have a reading comprehension level that is abysmally low.

And you know what? I would rather be accused of being a hippie than a war junkie. Nice avatar BTW.

 

[Mark of Zorro]

Honor in WAR | Opinion - Conservative

So many young men just love war, and so I am always suspicious when they start excusing them and speaking about honor.

Combat isn't where you might die --though that does happen -- it's where you find out whether you get to keep on living. Don't underestimate the power of that revelation. Don't underestimate the things young men will wager in order to play that game one more time.

And I agree with this:

Their honor is public within the context of their small honor group -- the tribe. They don't want to be shamed by the group and fear failing their brothers-at-arms. Their honor is a reputation for courage, strength and masculine virtue as it is defined culturally by the other men who they respect and depend on at these rugged outposts in the graveyard of empires.

In that sense they may score some positive single honor points.

But for just being there they earn negative honor points in the the tens for all I have said. They leaves them deep in a hole.

And God only knows what $#!T so many pulled but was successfully covered up. Seems like every foul act we know about that American soldiers committed, we first learned of it through the U.S. military denying it happened until it was obvious it did happen. There is no such thing as an honorable man serving among a group of louts.

 

[Mark of Zorro]

This might just blow your mind Zorro, but if you're in favor of murdering people who disagree with you, you're not a peace advocate in even the most perverse mutilation of the term.

Oh for the love or Pete! This is not about simply disagreeing with me! This is about support for stupid, needless involvement in another country's civil war. The murdering started with people who think like YOU, not me. I am just admitting that a taste of your own medicine is the only cure for you, just as you advocate with the Taliban.

Mainly because your words are semi-deranged.

What is deranged is thinking there was any need for America to go after the Taliban knowing full well that so many Innocent people would die in the process.

Then you have one definition of insanity; doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result. As if the experience of the British and the Russians were not enough, here is America, doing the same thing for 12 years, expecting a different result, and you in full agreement...or was that fool agreement?

 

[Mark of Zorro]

How so? My point was that civilian deaths are an unavoidable consequence of war. The death of my own family, while personally devastating, would not change this simple fact.

Of course innocent deaths are a consequence of war! Never said otherwise. But playing fast and loose with civilian lives is what pi$$es me off. Drone kills and bombing raids based on "pattern of life" hor$#!T has slaughtered so many kids. Its gross negligence and manslaughter, at the very best. But I think its more like drunk driving, and I don't mean driving while buzzing. I mean blind drunk. You kill someone like that and many just call it murder.

Sure, if you consider religious violence and ethnic cleansing the "lesser evil." WWW.OPPRESSION.ORG / ASIA / Genocide in Afghanistan

Ethinic cleansing my @$$! The Taliban never had a thing against Hazaras in that city until thousands of Taliban were murdered by Hazaras there!

It is reported that between May and July 1997 Abdul Malik Pahlawan executed thousands of Taliban members, that he personally did many of the killings by slaughtering the prisoners as a revenge for the 1995 death of Abdul Ali Mazari. "He is widely believed to have been responsible for the brutal massacre of up to 3,000 Taleban prisoners after inviting them into Mazar-i-Sharif."[6] Several of the Taliban escaped the slaughtering and reported what had happened. In retaliation for this incident, other shocked and furious Taliban came to the city on August 8, 1998, and led a six-day killing frenzy of Hazaras.

Of course there is zero doubt that the Taliban killed a bunch of people who had nothing to do with it. I never said that pack of idiots were saints. They are scum. But at least those scum were in their own country, and REVENGE, no matter how poorly or stupidly carried out, is NOT ethnic cleansing.

Since they're not actually governing Afghanistan anymore, I'd say that they have indeed been toppled from power.

The Taliban never controlled Afghanistan 100 percent. Maybe 75 percent at peak. Now something a bit less than 50 percent. Toppled? Wishful thinking.

No, because they were harboring Osama bin Laden and his cronies, you opinionated hippie.

Aren't those guys dead?

Was it necessary to engage the Taliban head on to get them?

I seem to remember Bush, not asking for bin Laden, but demanding that he be turned over, not to the ICJ, but to America. The Taliban asked for proof of his involvement in 9/11, Bush said "F U" and the war began.

I interpret that as making a bit of a show for the gullible. Bush wanted war and was not interested in any other option. He did not care about getting bin Laden except as a secondary objective. Its painfully obvious. Bush pretty much even admitted this.

This is just war junkies getting their war and trying to cover up the stench with a bit of perfume. Zero honor. Less than zero even.

 

[Tamayo]

Zorro, you're completely ignoring my questions here.

But playing fast and loose with civilian lives is what pi$$es me off.

Can you prove that they're being "fast and loose" even in spite of the fact that nukes haven't been dropped and cities haven't been flattened? There's a reason for snipers, complex raids, air drones, etc, you know.

Drone kills and bombing raids based on "pattern of life" hor$#!T has slaughtered so many kids.

How many? What were there names? Why were they targets? What's your source?

Its gross negligence and manslaughter, at the very best.

Again, I'd like to see some proof. How could you say that for sure not having been there and seen what happened with your own eyes, or at least providing a credible source to back your steam of extreme claims? It seems to me that the general public thinks it's a bunch of experts on air drones which are only used in secret. Do you see the irony there?

But I think its more like drunk driving, and I don't mean driving while buzzing. I mean blind drunk. You kill someone like that and many just call it murder.

"Many". Aren't you always the one preaching about the masses being stupid? Who cares what the masses call it, how about having some proof?

But at least those scum were in their own country,

I'm sorry, but this just sounds dumb to me. I think America has seen firsthand that they have access to planes. What makes you think that a government infected with a virus isn't a huge threat to our society when yet an even smaller group within that infection was able to stage a huge attack that brought America to it's knees?

Even if you try and say that 9/11 was just a cover to start a war, they still had the means to bring the war to us.

The Taliban never controlled Afghanistan 100 percent. Maybe 75 percent at peak. Now something a bit less than 50 percent. Toppled? Wishful thinking.

So am I to assume you think it would have been a good idea to just let them do whatever they wanted? Also, do you realize that it's more than just America in this war on terrorism?

Was it necessary to engage the Taliban head on to get them?

Please, elaborate on another way you would have wiped them off the face of the planet. Would you have just said "Please, turn yourselves in so we can end terrorism peacefully!"?

I interpret that as making a bit of a show for the gullible. Bush wanted war and was not interested in any other option.

Evidence? Proof? Or are you just going to dodge giving some sort of justification for believing that our President was involved with a huge terrorist conspiracy? Like I said, you act like you know everything about the inner workings of the government, but for someone who's trying to "spread the truth" to the "idiots" who don't know, you seem really reluctant to give up your proof and source.

He did not care about getting bin Laden except as a secondary objective. Its painfully obvious.

Proof? Source?

This is just war junkies getting their war

Again, proof, source? You make wildly extreme statements and I don't see them being backed up with anything but "ARE YOU STUPID? LOOK AT IT! IT'S SO OBVIOUS! YOU'RE SO BLIND IF YOU CAN'T SEE SOMETHING SO OBVIOUS!" Calling a nation a load of war junkies because it has a huge number of allies and the means to fight wars on multiple fronts is really daft. A nation doesn't necessarily crave war just because it wars.

 

[Hezam]

How many? What were there names? Why were they targets? What's your source?

This is one of the dumbest questions ever, Can you ask this question to the Vietnamese people ? can you ask them how many people the US killed ? their names ? and why the US army targeted them ? Your question is also rude.

 

[Krypteia]

Oh for the love or Pete! This is not about simply disagreeing with me!

To the contrary, it is completely about disagreeing with you. You don't like my views regarding the war in Afghanistan, so in your twisted little mind that means I must die. Your pea-brain has dreamt up an idealized society, and in your world anyone who fails conform to it deserves to be exterminated. Your high-sounding platitudes and pretensions of non-violence notwithstanding, you really are just a bloody-minded facist at heart.

What is deranged is thinking there was any need for America to go after the Taliban knowing full well that so many Innocent people would die in the process.

As I've said repeatedly, the deaths of innocent people are unavoidable in war, no matter who you're fighting. If we never fought anyone for fear that innocents would be harmed, then our nation would never have existed for as long as it has.

and you in full agreement...or was that fool agreement?

No. 'Fool agreement' would be if I took some sort of powerful hallucinogenic drug and started concuring with you.

 

[Krypteia]

Where did I say the Taliban was morally superior to American soldiers???

And Dave accuses ME, yet again, of twisting people's words. Seems that you, as well as Dave have a reading comprehension level that is abysmally low.

Apparently, you've a small memory to complement your negligible intellect. I quote post seventy-six:

I don't like the Taliban, but public whippings and uneducated women is really nothing compared to mass death. The Taliban was the lesser evil.

Nice avatar BTW.

Thank you. It serves to remind me that it was Spartan "war junkies" who saved the west from foreign domination.

 

[Tamayo]

This is one of the dumbest questions ever, Can you ask this question to the Vietnamese people ? can you ask them how many people the US killed ? their names ? and why the US army targeted them ? Your question is also rude.

My point has flown over your head. Sorry it offended you, but I can assure you that it was a far cry from what I meant.

 

[Hezam]

Just remember i'm not anti-american...I'm against the US foreign policy.

 

[Mark of Zorro]

Thank you. It serves to remind me that it was Spartan "war junkies" who saved the west from foreign domination.

How many thousands of years ago? And if Spartan war junkies had had been any more warlike, the rest of the Greeks would have had to save their civilization from them!

See the Spartans were not out to save anybody but themselves either. They mostly just freaking loved war!

Apparently, you've a small memory to complement your negligible intellect. I quote post seventy-six:

And I ask again, WHERE does it say the Taliban is morally superior to American soldiers?

I will give you some hints. First off, this thread is about foreign soldiers in Afghanistan, not any and all American soldiers. But you probably realized that already and are trying to score point by making me out to be anti-American and you some kind of patriot. Yeah, patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel (and you probably think that is an insult to patriotism (sigh)).

Another hint is my use of past tense. The Taliban was the lesser evil FOR SURE when the U.S. and cronies invaded. Now its not so clear. Yeah, I hear the Taliban is responsible for most civilian deaths, but I don't think the Taliban, being turned into a guerilla org, is keeping stats. That leaves me to trust the known liars of the U.S. government, who are just dropping bombs from the skies and shooting missiles by remote control drones, and lying every time they hit a funeral or wedding, then claiming it was an accident, and I am left to believe the Northern Alliance are having trouble keeping up with civilian murder compared to the Taliban. Yeah right.

Its blatantly obvious that U.S. gov and military are counting on the fog of war to obscure their bull$#!T. And the more we talk the more I think you don't believe the hype either but just puke excuses because you love a good war. But then I won't be surprised to find you really are just this gullible.

Last, the lesser evil hardly translates to "morally superior". That is some twisting of mammoth proportions and you do freaking know that. The Taliban had less scum on them at them than the invaders at the time. Now I can't really tell, but its a close call which is more scummy as the Taliban has changed.

 

[Mark of Zorro]

To the contrary, it is completely about disagreeing with you. You don't like my views regarding the war in Afghanistan, so in your twisted little mind that means I must die.

I don't like your views? I don't like your love of war no matter how stupid, bloody, devoid of honor and pointless! Its not your "views" its your blind barbarity and support!

and in your world anyone who fails conform to it deserves to be exterminated. Your high-sounding platitudes and pretensions of non-violence notwithstanding, you really are just a bloody-minded facist at heart.

I did not start with that. I was pushed into it by, surprise, surprise, some war loving, blood thirsty individuals who think that serving with a military that double taps strike zones on mere suspects is kosher while their government lies about the number of kids and rescue workers killed. Then you turn around and call that an attempt to avoid civilian casualties or just ignore the whole crock of $#!T!

I might be a pacifist, but I know words have their limits when faced with the "my country right or wrong" flock of war sheep.

As I've said repeatedly, the deaths of innocent people are unavoidable in war, no matter who you're fighting. If we never fought anyone for fear that innocents would be harmed, then our nation would never have existed for as long as it has.

Damn. Try reading my responses for crap's sake. I know civilian casualties are unavoidable, but that does not mean its cool to just shoot anyone with a gun or what looks like a gun, or shoot a man digging a hole because even though he might be burying a still born baby, we can't risk that it might be an IED. Then you got the drone record that the government hides, the double strikes that oh surprise! killed rescue workers and the bombs that hit wedding parties etc. etc.

Apparently Tamayo thinks the standard is flattening cities, and if you don't do that, you are good to go! What a pile of dung!

You guys yell at me, accuse me of being a troll or on drugs, but you guys are so full of $#!T you can see it swimming past your eyeballs!

And you can sit there all smug because you know this $#!T is unlikely to come back to you while you cheer for more blood from the peanut gallery. But you paid for your seat there and you support the carnage on the field, so yeah, you should be tossed down onto it.

You too should go fight the Taliban if you think this fight is so good and honorable or worth a crap. And you can drag some politicians and arms manufacturers with you please. And may you get shot in the head by man whose wife and kids were killed by drone jock sitting safely at Langley killing on his best guess and a whim.

 

[Mark of Zorro]

Zorro, you're completely ignoring my questions here.



.

Like you guys avoid my points or twist them like a pretzel?

Tell you what. You ask me one question and we will go from there. This whole thread has turned into a wriggling frustrating mess that I can't be bothered to untangle. You have questions? Choose one and ask and we can go from there.

 

[Mark of Zorro]

Operation Enduring Freedom: Why a Higher Rate of Civilian Bombing Casualties -- Project on Defense Alternatives

Cluster bombs. If you want to avoid civilian casualties, you should definitely drop lots of cluster bombs! Or so I was told by a cluster fck!

 

[Mark of Zorro]

Why Pro-War Propaganda on Afghanistan Still Works ﾂｫ Antiwar.com Blog

 

[Tamayo]

Like you guys avoid my points or twist them like a pretzel?

The only one avoiding things here is you.

Tell you what. You ask me one question and we will go from there. This whole thread has turned into a wriggling frustrating mess that I can't be bothered to untangle. You have questions? Choose one and ask and we can go from there.

If you're unable to hold a regular discussion with people, I don't know why you'd have started this thread in the first place. When the argument gets right down to it, you always flee and start handing out waiting tickets to answer questions and back up your statements. It's really quite simple -- my questions and concerns are clearly outlined, in order, in my post. If that's something you can't handle, stop making these threads and stop making ridiculous claims if you have no intentions of backing them up or being asked about them.

 

[Mark of Zorro]

It's really quite simple -- my questions and concerns are clearly outlined, in order, in my post.

Are you aware that you have multiple posts? What number? Which question would you like me to answer first?

Are those too much to ask from you without getting smacked with more stupid and false accusations? Can't a man even attempt to clean up a mess like this thread without getting attacked for it?

 

[Mark of Zorro]

One speaker was Sgt. Micah Turner, an AWOL soldier who has decided not to return to duty. He spoke about the need to end the Afghanistan War, seeking to "raise his voice for those who have no voice" he said "there is no reason that people should go to bed at night fearing the next drone strike or the next boot kicking down their door" and declared it was his "duty to dissent."

12th Year of Afghanistan War Begins With Arrests of Vets Protesting the War | Occupy Washington, DC

 

[Mark of Zorro]

Two Afghan Boys Accidentally Killed by NATO Helicopter (Published 2013)

They kill two boys collecting firewood and call it an accident. Conflicting accounts of there being "an engagement" with Taliban in the area or not, buuuuuuttttt....the place is under government control so seems more likely the ones saying there was no engagement are the ones telling the truth. And if they weren't? Well where the hell are those Talibani?

So how do you confuse two boys collecting firewood with donkeys as armed insurgents who are about to attack anyway? Just how do you do that? No honor? No brains? Bloodlust? Just want to shoot something? All the above?

Whatever. This was no accident, not even by the official story. The official story is mistaken identity, and since that is bull$#!T, they use the more encompassing term "accident". Just bull.

 

[Mark of Zorro]

11 Afghans Killed in Military Actions Near Pakistan Border (Published 2013)

Wanting to kill Taliban commanders, they just go ahead and kill his relatives too. Now that is honor!

 

[Mark of Zorro]

Afghan government accuses US special forces of civilian death and torture | Seattle Free Press

American special forces have oodles of honor...if you turn a blind eye to people who disappear.