Do foreign soldiers in Afghanistan have honor?

[Mark of Zorro]

Undoubtedly. But my own emotions in the matter would not change the fact that such things are unfortunately bound to happen in war.

That was not my point. My point was that you might wake the hell up logically.

They made it a bigger meat grinder by kicking the Taliban out of the seat of government?

Yes. Afghanistan calmed down a lot when the Taliban took most of the country. I don't like the Taliban, but public whippings and uneducated women is really nothing compared to mass death. The Taliban was the lesser evil.

So? There was a time in history when the Klan wasn't called 'terrorist' either.

You have aptitude for missing the point. The point is they could not be labeled terrorist at all until the U.S. government made them desperate. Even now, guerilla is more apt than terrorist. The word terrorist is quite forced on the part of those who apply it to the Taliban (but not the U.S. government).

If you accuse me of using the term "terrorist" loosely when applied to the U.S. government and military, fact is, you use it even MORE loosely applying it to the Taliban.

Pfffttt you got to be kidding me. Toppling an extremist regime in a backwards nation is 'making a horrible situation?'

The Taliban has not been toppled. Wake up.

And yes, mass death is worse than having the Taliban lead Afghanistan.

Why did we fight the Nazis? To save the Jews? No. Because they attacked our allies and threatened us.

The U.S. government supported a murderous military junta in Greece, a murderous Shah in Iran, and a murderous dictator in Chile and more. Not ignored. Not "let slip". But SUPPORTED. And now you are telling me that the U.S. government had to try and topple the Taliban for, for what? The greater good?? Holy F but this is getting ridiculous!

Are you even being honest with these beliefs, or are just saying anything to feel better about this crap?

That's so stupid I'm not even sure how to respond.

What is stupid is that you cannot see what is going on here. You accuse the Taliban of being terrorists casually, but refuse to see how the U.S. government orders war and killing with no reason that could be just.

Dude, this fking terrorism:

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Note the secondary strike killing rescue workers.

 

[nahadef]

The U.S. government supported a murderous military junta in Greece, a murderous Shah in Iran, and a murderous dictator in Chile and more. Not ignored. Not "let slip". But SUPPORTED. And now you are telling me that the U.S. government had to try and topple the Taliban for, for what? The greater good?? Holy F but this is getting ridiculous!

Ah, so the history of America is what makes America's current wars immoral. Interesting. (from this cherry-picked quote, I assume that if America had overthrown Pinero, America's behaviour at the moment would be acceptable to you.)

Let the record stand that nobody from Chile, Greece or Iran has tried to start a war against America.

 

[Mark of Zorro]

I assume that if America had overthrown Pinero, America's behaviour at the moment would be acceptable to you.)

No def, I am just showing that the history of the modern U.S. government is too crappy to just assume they are doing good now without scratching the surface.

Toppling extremist regimes for the good of the world or the people there is not what the U.S. government does. That is a dream of fools. The way the poster talked, America was some friggen saint. I am showing him, its not the case.

Besides, you will kindly note that the U.S. gov was not even considering attacking the Taliban until 9/11.

Let the record stand that nobody from Chile, Greece or Iran has tried to start a war against America.

Who starts wars they know they can't win? Besides, they all know the real evil was from their own countries even the U.S. gov supported that evil. I am sure there is plenty of resentment of the U.S. gov in those places though.

 

[nahadef]

The government of America has a pretty massive shift every decade, and commits their own new good and evil. Because of the rapid turnover, I think it's foolish to try to connect the acts of the CIA in the 70's and 80's to the first decade of the 21st century.
It's not to assume that they are doing good now, but that each event has to taken on its own and processed as is, as opposed to as a series of events.

 

[Tamayo]

Toppling extremist regimes for the good of the world or the people there is not what the U.S. government does. That is a dream of fools.

What I want to know is why you're against America's decisions, no matter what, since it's 'impossible for the government to make honorable choices'? This is my biggest problem with over-criticism of anything, not just government. It seems to me that you reject everything America does solely by virtue of the actor and not the act. Where is your conclusive proof that America doesn't care about anything but itself?

 

[Mark of Zorro]

...What are you talking about?

If we cannot decide a war is wrong from here, but we go to fight it anyway, then we are trusting someone's word, right? In this case, it would be GWB. Its his war. You say we don't know enough to decide, but look at all those that went to fight.

Oh, please. Are you just looking to argue, or are you really acting like a child over what I said?

I was just going by what you said. Apparently you feel that we plebes don't have the info to choose to fight or not.

I don't know why you started talking about war strategy and secret missions. None of this is about that. The point is whether one side of the war is just, and if its not, the people fighting it have no honor.

. The only way around the way things work right now is for us to be a complete democracy, or a dictatorship, and both of those situations would be a disaster.

How about the soldiers just quit?

Anyways, I wasn't poking at individual influence so much as I was just trying to point out that we shouldn't be so quick to criticize that which we don't understand.

I understood this war would drag on and on from the start. I knew Iraq would drag on as well. I understand that America is starting fights where its not necessary and getting people killed that did not have to die. I understand that America uses technology to fight wars that kills and angers the very people the U.S. government claims to be there to help. I understand the that U.S. Congress has passed the buck on war issues they are supposed to take responsibility for. I understand that foreign powers getting involved in civil wars is pointless and stupid, unless your point is to make money, and that isn't honor.

I understand that there are a lot of corrupt people within the government, but I also respect the huge burdens that the others carry for whatever reason, be it loyalty to their country, or to a "greater good" they believe in.

All that must be quite a crock of $#!T if it let them get swept up in Afghanistan as foreign soldier.

If any really believed in the fight against the Taliban, they could and should have joined a local group, like The Flying Tigers and like the Eagle Squadrons did.

As it is, I have slightly more respect for the American that joined the Taliban than I do for U.S. soldiers in Afghanistan, which is to say they are both in the red, but that one guy is not as far in.

 

[Tamayo]

If we cannot decide a war is wrong from here, but we go to fight it anyway, then we are trusting someone's word, right? In this case, it would be GWB. Its his war. You say we don't know enough to decide, but look at all those that went to fight.

Let's be honest, this conversation has become about a lot more than just the last decade.

I was just going by what you said.

No you weren't. We both know you put ridiculous words in my mouth.

I don't know why you started talking about war strategy and secret missions. None of this is about that. The point is whether one side of the war is just, and if its not, the people fighting it have no honor.

What you seem to be unable, or maybe unwilling to understand, is that wars aren't fought in the public eye anymore. We're not in the 1800s. Wars these days rely on the wits and intel that each side has. Kill the right targets, capture the right points, and the whole war topples over. This is efficient war.

The only reason that terrorists are even a problem is that they rely on modern warfare to hurt their enemies -- What exactly do you think stops the US from wiping them off the face of the planet? They're in hiding, they carry things out in secrecy, and they're incredibly decisive with their attacks. Wars these days are far bigger than any of us could know because most of it happens right under our noses. That's why this is "about that". If America was any bit as ruthless as you've brainwashed yourself to believe, the entire middle-east would have been turned into glass by now, civilians and all.

How about the soldiers just quit?

And then our enemies annihilate us completely. What a nice ending to the story. We're only safe because we're powerful.

I understood this war would drag on and on from the start. I knew Iraq would drag on as well. I understand that America is starting fights where its not necessary and getting people killed that did not have to die. I understand that America uses technology to fight wars that kills and angers the very people the U.S. government claims to be there to help. I understand the that U.S. Congress has passed the buck on war issues they are supposed to take responsibility for. I understand that foreign powers getting involved in civil wars is pointless and stupid, unless your point is to make money, and that isn't honor.

But you keep talking as if you're an insider with more access to secret knowledge than the general public. Everyone knows that war takes a lot of time, consumes enormous amounts of money, and kills innocent people, but what is it you think you see that no one else does, and why?

If any really believed in the fight against the Taliban, they could and should have joined a local group, like The Flying Tigers and like the Eagle Squadrons did.

Unfortunately for us, the sort of people America is dealing with is a lot more comfortable with killing innocent people than it is with reasoning. How would that help, at all?

As it is, I have slightly more respect for the American that joined the Taliban than I do for U.S. soldiers in Afghanistan, which is to say they are both in the red, but that one guy is not as far in.

You can go on pretending like the government and everyone associated with it are pure evil all you like -- The fact that you'd really belittle the sacrifices that are made across the board by honest soldiers and politicians alike says quite a bit about your bias against America.

 

[Mark of Zorro]

What I want to know is why you're against America's decisions, no matter what, since it's 'impossible for the government to make honorable choices'?

I agreed with the U.S. government decision to condemn Japan for refusal to admit its WWII sex slavery history. Does that count?

But gee whiz, how does my disagreement with several U.S. government decisions and policies mean I disagree with "America's decisions no matter what"?

This is my biggest problem with over-criticism of anything, not just government. It seems to me that you reject everything America does solely by virtue of the actor and not the act.

Complete bull. You make a list of American government decisions, and I will tell you what I agree with and what I don't. But if I only spoke on what I have an issue with, what do you expect? An "I love America" thread? What would that solve?

What do you think are some of the greatest things about America?

Okay, its been done. And it did not last long. There is something about rainbows and daffodils that does not promote discussion.

Where is your conclusive proof that America doesn't care about anything but itself?

What a completely bizarre question. I never said that.

 

[Mark of Zorro]

The government of America has a pretty massive shift every decade, and commits their own new good and evil. Because of the rapid turnover, I think it's foolish to try to connect the acts of the CIA in the 70's and 80's to the first decade of the 21st century.
It's not to assume that they are doing good now, but that each event has to taken on its own and processed as is, as opposed to as a series of events.

You have got to be kidding me def. This pattern of behavior is being passed down from father to son, not only in the families of those with power, but also the rank and file. Those with power have their friends in government and they have lobbyists too. Wars profit so many of them. Those in the rank and file are led around by the nose with foolish, and I would say mistaken, concepts of honor and duty.

These events are hardly unrelated. This is exactly what Eisenhower warned us about in the 50s.

 

[nahadef]

You have got to be kidding me def.

No, I'm not. There are large shifts between generations. Richard Nixon would look like a Democrat if he were alive now.

 

[Mark of Zorro]

And then our enemies annihilate us completely. What a nice ending to the story. We're only safe because we're powerful.

I meant quit the Afghan war.

Even so, what a bunch of paranoid drivel. America's enemies cannot get a significant military force to America. China would be chief among them but they don't even have the ships to transport enough men to not be overwhelmed by American street gangs if they invaded.

 

[Mark of Zorro]

No, I'm not. There are large shifts between generations. Richard Nixon would look like a Democrat if he were alive now.

To look on war rather casually is a trait that permeates all sides of American politics and has since shortly after WWII. A great many Americans look at war as just another job to get done. Its sickening. And those of us who don't think that way have pretty much given up trying to stop those who do.

The only solution left seems to be to rise up and put a bullet in the brain of these war junkies. Next best thing would be to ship Tamayo and 7stars over to Afghanistan to fight directly with Northern Alliance troops, eat their food, use their weapons etc. and take bets on how long they last. Its the least their war support deserves.

I would give them a month before they have a "friendly fire" incident.

So Tamayo, you are American and 19. What the hell are you still doing in Colorado? We need you to run over to Afghanistan and join the Northern Alliance and protect America and the world from the Taliban. What the Devil are you waiting for?

 

[Hezam]

How about the soldiers just quit?

They have another choice, Suicide... which is the worst choice, Suicide ratio is 1 soldier per day according to western resources.

 

[BrianLewis]

BrianLewis, I have not done enough myself and I agree with Michael. But not having done enough does not make us wrong. Even a man in wheelchair can correctly observe that another man walks funny.

That's fine. My point is you can't very well point fingers at others for not acting, when one does nothing themselves to correct the situation. Surely no one expects this forum to be adequate for that sort of thing, and I would not really consider it "doing anything about it."

 

[Krypteia]

That was not my point. My point was that you might wake the hell up logically.

How so? My point was that civilian deaths are an unavoidable consequence of war. The death of my own family, while personally devastating, would not change this simple fact.

The Taliban was the lesser evil.

Sure, if you consider religious violence and ethnic cleansing the "lesser evil." WWW.OPPRESSION.ORG / ASIA / Genocide in Afghanistan

The Taliban has not been toppled. Wake up.

Since they're not actually governing Afghanistan anymore, I'd say that they have indeed been toppled from power.

And now you are telling me that the U.S. government had to try and topple the Taliban for, for what? The greater good??

No, because they were harboring Osama bin Laden and his cronies, you opinionated hippie.

 

[Krypteia]

The only solution left seems to be to rise up and put a bullet in the brain of these war junkies.

In view of that charming sentiment, I don't think you're in a position to be calling anyone a terrorist.

So Tamayo, you are American and 19. What the hell are you still doing in Colorado? We need you to run over to Afghanistan and join the Northern Alliance and protect America and the world from the Taliban. What the Devil are you waiting for?

Indeed. But what about you, Zorro? What are you doing sitting on your @ss in Chubu? With principles as high as yours, I'd expect you to be out exacting bloody vengeance on all the "war junkies" rather than playing the lavender Bolshevik and just whining about our warlike society.

 

[Hezam]

Sure, if you consider religious violence and ethnic cleansing the "lesser evil." .

Just compare Taliban to your system since your nation first created...we know history nub.

 

[Tamayo]

But gee whiz, how does my disagreement with several U.S. government decisions and policies mean I disagree with "America's decisions no matter what"?

What reason have you really given anyone on this forum to think you don't just downright hate America? : / It's great to be critical of things, but it seems like you refuse to see any good in American government, it's soldiers, the people, etc. I could agree with you all day long that the masses are stupid, there are people in the government who are corrupt, innocent people die needlessly and all that jazz, but you seem to think that there's no other circumstance. In all honesty, this whole thread seems like another jab at America, and I can't tell if it's a good idea to post in it because you're legitimately concerned with this issue, or a bad idea to post in it because this is just another drop in your "I hate America" bucket.

What a completely bizarre question. I never said that.

What I'm saying is that you, along with many conspiracy theorists, seem to get this idea that it's fine to hate something without understanding why. Can you really prove that America wages war because it, for some reason, enjoys it? Can you prove that Soldiers are sent into towns marked as non-military targets for the purpose of terrorizing them? Can you give me a single reason to believe that any person in the government and military alike have any reason to kill innocent people?

To look on war rather casually is a trait that permeates all sides of American politics and has since shortly after WWII.

You must have been asleep in your history classes while they were discussing the Civil Rights period.

The only solution left seems to be to rise up and put a bullet in the brain of these war junkies.

How can you honestly expect anyone here to take you seriously after saying ludicrous things like that?0

Next best thing would be to ship Tamayo and 7stars over to Afghanistan to fight directly with Northern Alliance troops, eat their food, use their weapons etc. and take bets on how long they last. Its the least their war support deserves.

I would give them a month before they have a "friendly fire" incident.

So Tamayo, you are American and 19. What the hell are you still doing in Colorado? We need you to run over to Afghanistan and join the Northern Alliance and protect America and the world from the Taliban. What the Devil are you waiting for?

...Where are you even going with this?

 

[Hezam]

next best thing would be to ship tamayo and 7stars over to afghanistan to fight

lmao :d

 

[Chidoriashi]

The only solution left seems to be to rise up and put a bullet in the brain of these war junkies.

You are such a dic*less troll. This just proves it. Tell us all knowing Zorro, How can we solve the problem of this war peacefully?, better yet show us the way to solve all the worlds problems! Oh, wait let me guess lets all just make love, everyone just fu*ks each other all day long and all our problems will go away, right hippy god?

 

[Mark of Zorro]

You are such a dic*less troll. This just proves it.

Interesting. You support the opinion that America should get up and go shoot the Taliban in the head for not being more sensible, but if I suggest the same for people like you, I get bile. You have two faces, and both of them are butt ugly.

How can we solve the problem of this war peacefully?,

You mean the war America pretty much started right? (sigh).

Peacefully or not, Afghanistan will never be fixed in our lifetimes. The people must straighten themselves up. We can't make them do it. We will get only resentment.

Oh, wait let me guess lets all just make love, everyone just fu*ks each other all day long and all our problems will go away, right hippy god?

We are speaking of war, not "all problems".

But you know, its funny how stupid you can be when trying, and even when not trying. Congratulations.

If any nation really cares about the Afghan people, they can simply open their doors to immigration. Then they can pull the hell out of there.

But you don't care. America does not really care. Oh, I am sure some people do, but most do not. Caring enough to let their young and dumb young men go kill and die there is not really caring. Accepting an Afghan neighbor, with all their ways foreign to you, THAT is caring.

And if anyone really believes in the fight, they can go fight in the Afghan forces, their way, with their weapons directly under their leaders..

But this really feels like deja vu. Pretty sure I already said this.

Why do you keep coming here if you either don't read or refuse to remember the things I say?

Oh, I know! Its so you can scream TROLL and act all smug, right?

 

[Mark of Zorro]

...Where are you even going with this?

You are still here? Man, go join up and find honor! America needs you to protect it from the nasty Taliban! Could be a Taliban terrorist behind your couch right now, come over in the wheel well of a jetliner, just to give you and your neighbor a wet willy!

Never mind where I am going! WHEN are you going?

If you are lucky, they will make you a drone jock. You can blow people up based your estimation of their "pattern of life" being a threat to you. Then you can blast them to hell. And then when the rescue workers come to get the children trapped under rubble out, you can do a double strike! Won't that be fun? I mean its not like you knew those kids were there the first time. But if you are not lucky, you can just support this system of raw honor and courage in some other way, like maybe sniping guys who appear to have a weapon, in their own country. Never mind if it turns out to be a shephard's stick. Just put an AK-47 in his cold dead hands and all fixed!

Go. Go save the Afghans. Go protect America. You believe in this fight. So go fight it. Stop belly aching at me. Do your duty. And don't bother fighting the way the locals will be happy with. Screw them, you know,while you help them. Don't think about this. Just do it. Just obey and believe what others tell you. I don't have anyone's best interest in mind. I just benefit selfishly from peace is all, bastard that I am.

 

[Mark of Zorro]

Its a nice catch 22 isn't it? I advocate peace, but my only option to get it is violence. Real nice.

The problem is not my principles, but my power to effect change. I have none. I have no influence other than my words, and as you can see, they fall on deaf ears.

This is why Michael Paulson writes one post and gives up. People like you are fracking hopeless. Hopeless and deaf.

 

[Tamayo]

You are still here? Man, go join up and find honor! America needs you to protect it from the nasty Taliban! Could be a Taliban terrorist behind your couch right now, come over in the wheel well of a jetliner, just to give you and your neighbor a wet willy!

Never mind where I am going! WHEN are you going?

If you are lucky, they will make you a drone jock. You can blow people up based your estimation of their "pattern of life" being a threat to you. Then you can blast them to hell. And then when the rescue workers come to get the children trapped under rubble out, you can do a double strike! Won't that be fun? I mean its not like you knew those kids were there the first time. But if you are not lucky, you can just support this system of raw honor and courage in some other way, like maybe sniping guys who appear to have a weapon, in their own country. Never mind if it turns out to be a shephard's stick. Just put an AK-47 in his cold dead hands and all fixed!

Go. Go save the Afghans. Go protect America. You believe in this fight. So go fight it. Stop belly aching at me. Do your duty. And don't bother fighting the way the locals will be happy with. Screw them, you know,while you help them. Don't think about this. Just do it. Just obey and believe what others tell you. I don't have anyone's best interest in mind. I just benefit selfishly from peace is all, bastard that I am.

You can drop the angry child stomping around and whining act. Where are you going with this?

 

[FrustratedDave]

Guys you can't talk reason with someone who is unreasonable. Mark of Zorro continues to mis-quote , twist words and take things out of context and then has the nerve to accuse you of being inconsistent. But, in the area of consistency his ridiculous claims and statements don't seem to end.

So...