I think that post was a tad condescending, RockLee, and that mildly offends me. Let's stick to the original topic, but with an objective and critical reading of the article before engaging in uncourteous debate. I'll stop here. ;-)RockLee said:It's not about the fact they make a game where you have to be against Japanese.But the fact that recently a lot of anti-Japanese things happened mainly because the CCP let it happen and in my opinion even supported it and now want to bring out that game is what's not right.It seems like the Chinese government is up to something and it's not good.But hey, as a Chinese I don't expect you to understand...you don't know half of the story.(Unless you live in Hong Kong..those folks know a lot more about the real China)
If you read my previous posts in this thread carefully and with enough respect, you should have already got the answer. I feel vain that you raise these questions again after I explained them clearly.RockLee said:Innerfire, you tell me China is growing and getting more mature.Then why does Chinese tv consist out of nothing more than Chinese programs 24/7 which handle about Chinese history, China is so conservative and doesn't really stand open for changes.They cling to traditions so much, you think that will help modernising?
Even if there is a good and strong economy, the people don't change that easily and everyone wants to make money.There isn't any fixed value for goods.I was amazed that even in some official stores you could bargain with the owner !!! I mean, come on that's rediculous ☝ I think China has a long way to become a *mature generation* as you put it.Also you said the Chinese should help the CCP, but why help the ones who deny freedom of speech,deny the right to know everything, the right of having an opinion.
There're always different voices from the other side even if it's already been a widely accepted fact. I'm not saying that your source is wrong. But I bet there are more people in this world who accept China's fast economy growth than those who insist that it's just a fabricated story. You may keep thinking like that, but time can testify everything.RockLee said:Here is an interesting article about the credibility of the Chinese economy...
I've never said that I'm talking for the rest of the population. But one thing for sure is that I've lived in China for more than 26 years, have been to almost every provinces, including both cities and the countryside, of the country, and I've met and made friends with lots and lots of local people here, which seems to me that at least I know more Chinese than you do.RockLee said:How can you talk for the rest of the population ? You can talk only for yourself and the people you know ! Or do you know every Chinese :?
I think it's those victims' relatives and friends that can not stand with it. There's no law to punish a person who choose to kill herself after killing her child. Nobody else "deal with" them, but those who loved them do! We think FLG is evil simply because it makes our relatives and friends mad or even suicide. You still can't understand it? Just assume that you were me and experienced similar sad things, what would you think then? Man please read my posts carefully and with respect before posting.RockLee said:I don't have any experience with it myself, but don't think Chinese are the only ones dealing with people killing themselves because of religious reasons...
Yes it is. But will you support a thing that makes those who you love kill themselves "out of free will"? I simply call that kind of thing "evil monster".RockLee said:...Also killing yourself out of free will is totally different from getting killed or tortured because of your opinions.
Yes you are right. "Things are not that good afterall in China", and "there have to be serious improvements in either social as economical areas". Ya I think that's absolutely right. But I don't think that's to say that we should overthrow CCP now. The resson I say this was also explained in my previous posts in the same thread.RockLee said:Now I don't want to act like I know everything, but I do know enough to understand that things are not that good afterall in China, and there have to be serious improvements in either social as economical areas.
1.You didn't answer those questions in any of your repliesinnerfire said:If you read my previous posts in this thread carefully and with enough respect, you should have already got the answer. I feel vain that you raise these questions again after I explained them clearly.
Do you know why they think that ? Because they all see potential in it, and money ! Hey if it can profit enough, why not huh ;-) There are always people against and people for, and indeed you are right, only time can tellThere're always different voices from the other side even if it's already been a widely accepted fact. I'm not saying that your source is wrong. But I bet there are more people in this world who accept China's fast economy growth than those who insist that it's just a fabricated story. You may keep thinking like that, but time can testify everything.
Ofcourse, I never said I know more Chinese than you do, but you can't talk for the majority of the population in China, a lot of people in rural areas, hutong...They are poor, don't have that much information as well-educated people so they don't know better than their way of life.You might know a few hundred people, but that's not even 1% of the total population, so you couldn't and wouldn't know what other Chinese think.I've never said that I'm talking for the rest of the population. But one thing for sure is that I've lived in China for more than 26 years, have been to almost every provinces, including both cities and the countryside, of the country, and I've met and made friends with lots and lots of local people here, which seems to me that at least I know more Chinese than you do.
I don't like religion in general.But everyone is entitled on his own religion, even if it's a cult or a bad religion.The reason FLG is evil according to the government is because it's based on taoïsm which means they don't aknowledge authority and that's why the government is so afraid of them.On another sidenote, who says the government didn't stage everything to make it seem as if the person commited suicide?Don't expect too highly of the CCP as it is capable of doing anything.But on the other hand I can understand your feelings and how you think about it, I might act the same.I think it's those victims' relatives and friends that can not stand with it. There's no law to punish a person who choose to kill herself after killing her child. Nobody else "deal with" them, but those who loved them do! We think FLG is evil simply because it makes our relatives and friends mad or even suicide. You still can't understand it? Just assume that you were me and experienced similar sad things, what would you think then? Man please read my posts carefully and with respect before posting.
That is either FLG or the CCP...both aren't that good.Yes it is. But will you support a thing that makes those who you love kill themselves "out of free will"? I simply call that kind of thing "evil monster".
Well from what I've been reading yearly more and more people quit the CCP because they finally see that's it's not the correct way to lead China.As long as the CCP is in power China can not grow into the country it should be.In a governmentsystem where :Yes you are right. "Things are not that good afterall in China", and "there have to be serious improvements in either social as economical areas". Ya I think that's absolutely right. But I don't think that's to say that we should overthrow CCP now. The resson I say this was also explained in my previous posts in the same thread.
RockLee, if you do know a perfect way for us to choose and would like to tell me, I'll appreciated it very very much. But before that, I have to say that there is no better way to choose other than CCP's way considering current situation of China.
Taking a retrospect look at history, you will see that China rises when it gets united and falls when it stumbled by civil "movements". That's maybe because China's large population and the backward starting point. Most of Chinese people still lack of education and international way of thinking, so they are not yet ready to thorough freedom and demacracy. I mean that may lead to overwhelming national disturbance which both the country and its people can not afford. I'm not saying by this that we shall keep the current political system forever, but it's not a good time now to make any major change before we get rich enough as a whole. Please try to understand this.
Me too, and I hope you can understand my point and my opinions with the same respectGlad to share opinions with you.
Yeah, Let's party ! :haihai:innerfire said:God, just noticed that I've been in JREF for exactly one month! I love you all guys!
I'd say you exaggerated here.innerfire said:Actually the censor measure itself is very vulnarable because there are so many free and easy-to-get (even elementary school students know how to) proxies here.
Aren't those lack of education the majority of Chinese people?I think the "censor" measure may be effective to those who lack of education, but definitely not to us all.
Because they're not well educated(including me) so their minds should be controlled? :?Not-well-educated people may be more easily arosed but this would not happen because the "censor" measure just works for them. By this means our government unites its people to strive towards a same goal at maximun power.
You can always ask an admin to remove it, if it doesn't hurt your ego that is ;-)Mamoru-kun said:RockLee, with all due respect...what are you trying to do exactly? What are you trying to prove to Innerfire? Are you waiting him to say something like: "Yes! I live in a corrupted country...and now I'll have problems because I wrote that online!"? May I remind you that, even if you succeed in changing his point of view about his own country, there is still billions of chinese sitizens left? Furthermore, what if that kind of gouvernment is in fact good for that kind of country? I mean, as Innerfire said, China seems not prepared yet to "accept" democracy. Should we perhaps ask to some east europe countries what they think about their "new democracy" (post 90's gouvernments)? About what I've heard, democracy (comming with our capitalist point of view) is often (not to say "most of the time") worse than what was running before. What I want to say is, and it's true for a lot of other things, what seems bad for us may be good for other people (well, it's what I've understood after 8 years living with my japanese wife). I don't speak on an invidual basis, but more on a whole country-view basis.
NOTE: sorry, I wrote this post after a read a previous post of RockLee (I haven't seen that there was a second page in this thread). But well...it took me soo much time to write it that it would be painfull to remove it now ;-)
You mean it might LOOK good for them, but definitaly isn't good for them.what seems bad for us may be good for other people
I don't think it is Lex.One is always a bit biased about his own country.It might sound rude, but at least there is a truth in it.lexico said:I think that post was a tad condescending, RockLee, and that mildly offends me. Let's stick to the original topic, but with an objective and critical reading of the article before engaging in uncourteous debate. I'll stop here. ;-)
This is the exact negative influence the government wants to give to the Chinese population.Make a little bit of propaganda.Do you know what this is ? It's brainwashing, breeding haters, hate against the Japanese.Which is in my opinion totally useless.And the result is that people will act like they did a few months before! Attacking Japanese restaurants,destroying Japanese property,attacking Japanese people.Mamoru-kun said:Well, that's what is "point of views" ;-)
And by the way, here is an..."interesting" link about the game (quite some time to load): some kind of preview?
I used to have this flight fright, not because I got air sick or couldn't handle the depressurising or repressurising on my ascent and descent up into the jet stream and down. It was the stuffiness of the cabin air, dehydration, the colds and headaches that I would suffer after the flight, sometimes extending for more than a week, or developing into bronchitis. Of course, the major air liners couldn't be wrong, I thought. It's just my sensitive system that can't handle it, so I thought. These were American air liners.RockLee said:Let me tell you what the CCP has been doing and still is doing is everything except ideal or good...
Yes I admit that. Maybe that's most friends of mine, but not all the population. But the result may be similar: since many of us (I'm trying not to be exaggerated this time) do have the access, and nobody could prevent them from spreading what they've got, it's very likely that finally all of us know the voice from the other side. Sunshine you should know well about the power of the China's internet and its users today, which seems to me impossible to be restrained.quiet sunshine said:I'd say you exaggerated here.
Before I put it this way I realized that I would stir my fellow citizens up by this kind of classification. But I can not find a better way to put it. I apologize for that.quiet sunshine said:Aren't those lack of education the majority of Chinese people?
This can not be answered without the context. Generally to control people's minds is no good at all.(But don't you think it's widely practised, explictly or implictly, in the world? Well that's maybe another topic.) The key is that only some bad information is (attempted to be) censored, I don't think it's to say "their minds are controled". Not that serious at all.quiet sunshine said:Because they're not well educated(including me) so their minds should be controlled? :?
Interesting point about "points of view," and interesting flash. I would like to point out that the flash is not bashing Japan at all. It is only bashing Imperial Japan. If anyone thinks the flash is bashing Japan, then (s)he is claiming that modern Japan is Imperial Japan.Mamoru-kun said:Well, that's what is "point of views" ;-)
And by the way, here is an..."interesting" link about the game (quite some time to load): some kind of preview?
lexico said:Interesting point about "points of view," and interesting flash. I would like to point out that the flash is not Japan bashing at all. It is only bashing Imperial Japan. If anyone thinks the flash is bashing Japan, then (s)he is claiming that modern Japan is Imperial Japan.
lexico said:and the best international flight I've ever been on was on an Air China 窶吮??ﾂ坂?伉坂??#38469;ﾂ航窶ｹﾃｳ flight from San Francisco to Beijing. That should serve as a prime counter-example that in some areas, the PRC has been doing something right...
RockLee said:You mean it might LOOK good for them, but definitaly isn't good for them.
First of all, that flash is not what you think it is, just as Lexico pointed out above.RockLee said:It's brainwashing, breeding haters, hate against the Japanese.Which is in my opinion totally useless.And the result is that people will act like they did a few months before! Attacking Japanese restaurants,destroying Japanese property,attacking Japanese people.
Either bashing modern Japan or rural Japan, both are not good in my opinion, there are limits on games, and this flash's purpose is to humiliate the Japanese and make the Chinese sound like he's the best.Sorry but in my eyes that's racism.But what I'm trying to say is that over 'I don't know how many' years China had no grudge whatsoever against Japan until recently, and now they come up with games like this? Why now and not earlier?lexico said:Interesting point about "points of view," and interesting flash. I would like to point out that the flash is not bashing Japan at all. It is only bashing Imperial Japan. If anyone thinks the flash is bashing Japan, then (s)he is claiming that modern Japan is Imperial Japan.
Btw I like the friendly "I love you" hand signal waved by the IJA soldier. Cute.
I must give you that, Air China was the best flight company I flew with in China ! We had individual screens and good food! Ahh I miss flyingOriginally Posted by lexico
and the best international flight I've ever been on was on an Air China 窶吮??ﾂ坂?伉坂??#38469;ﾂ航窶ｹﾃｳ flight from San Francisco to Beijing. That should serve as a prime counter-example that in some areas, the PRC has been doing something right...
Well, I personally don't have the immediate answer myself ! But I know it's not ideal and in the long term there has to be a change of government, I do think another government who actually supports the people, does more for the people and helps China to become a big nation with wealth is needed and will eventually will be created.Or at least I hope it willBut I'm also unable to say if they are bad for them, as I don't have a clue on how to satisfy a population so big. I won't be surprised if another kind of gouvernment wouldn't bring more happiness to them...
Then may I infer from your sentiment that you identify Modern Japan with Imperial Japan ?RockLee said:Either bashing modern Japan or rural Japan, both are not good in my opinion, there are limits on games, and this flash's purpose is to humiliate the Japanese and make the Chinese sound like he's the best.
Defending one's territory is racism ? Was the defeating of Nazi Germany in Europe racism ? Please see the flash again with particular attention to detail such as uniform worn. ;-)Sorry but in my eyes that's racism.
I cannot tell why not earlier, but I might be able to offer a plausible answer to your question of "Why now ?"But what I'm trying to say is that over 'I don't know how many' years China had no grudge whatsoever against Japan until recently, and now they come up with games like this? Why now and not earlier ?
Although Iris Chang is dead by taking a gun to her throat, the proliferation of Japnaese games and literature in the recent yrs, combined with the 2005 Japanese gov'tal approval of the Fusousha revisionist textbook and the Yasukuni visits by Japanese gov'tal heads appear to be the specific reasons that triggered the Chinese game/flash that portrays the Chinese people's rightful effort in fighting off the invaders from Chinese soil who happened to be the Imperial Japanese Army during the 1931-1945 Pacific War.Japanese History Revisionist Video Games Wanted !
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 11 : 44 : 46 -0800
From: Ignatius Ding
As the author of a forthcoming book on the Rape of Nanking (October 1997, Basic Books/HarperCollins), I have heard scattered accounts of a proliferation of Japanese video games and novels that glorify the government's wartime past. For instance, a few years ago I watched on television a news segment about the popularity of fantasy novels in Japan that describe the Japanese winning World War II. (One such novel depicted former president Truman cowering under his desk as Japanese forces stormed the White House). Unfortunately, I was not able to record the specific titles of those novels.
I would be grateful if people could email me the titles and descriptions of any recent Japanese novels, comic books or juvenile literature that either distort WWII history or encourage a revival of Japanese military aggression. Also, I am interested in gathering the citations of scholarly papers, if any, that document this phenomenon in Japan.
In addition, any information about video games that insult the memory of WWII victims of the imperial Japanese army would be greatly appreciated -- especially if such video games are available in electronic stores in the US.
I can be reached by email at irischang@aol.com or by regular mail at PO Box 70366, Sunnyvale, CA 94086.
-- Iris Chang
Good point, Noyhauser. Pointing the finger back at China and other WWII victim countries when all the flaming I mentioned came from Japan; can that be considered evidence showing that the modern Japanese gov't and its people are mature and responsible ? Is that behaviour congruent with the so-called 17 apologies ?noyhauser said:Interesting tidbit.
When the textbook contraversy erupted only 14 schools had adopted the offending textbooks. within 5 months of the major anti Japanese protests 30 schools had adopted it and its growing.
so I think you're making alot of progress and the Japanese are well on their way to enthusiastically embracing its past. Thumbs up!