取られる / 今度 / なんて / 定食

[eeky]

Hi,

1. This is revisting a sentence I previously asked about at くれれば / 冷たくて / しました / いかない. A list of occasions on which Americans give tips has been given, culminating in:

... 出かける時にドアマンがタクシーを呼び止めてくれれば、それに対してチップ、というよ うに、何度もチップを取られる。

Looking again, I am not sure about 取られる. Is this passive? Who/what is the subject? Could it be an "indirect passive"?


2. あの最近できたお店に行ってみた？今度お昼ご飯を食べ に行こうかなって、思ってるんだけど。

My translation: "Have you tried that restaurant that's opened recently? I think you said you were wondering whether to go there for lunch some time?"

Is this OK? Could 今度 mean "some time"? Is the subject of 思ってる the speaker? Have I got the temporal aspect correct?


3. ご飯もおかわり自由だから、僕なんてごはん三杯、卵４ つ、のりを１２枚も食べちゃったんですよ。

My translation: "You can also have as many second helpings as you like, so I ended up eating three bowls of rice, four eggs and twelve pieces of nori."

What is the purpose of なんて here? Is it, like, a "filler" without much actual meaning?


4.

女: へえ。じゃ、値段がけっこう高いんじゃないの？
男: いいえ、定食で５５０円だから普通じゃないでしあ 蛯､か。
女: まさかその卵とのりだけで５５０円じゃないでしあ 蛯､ね。
男: ええ。もちろん定食にはちゃんとおかずが付いてあ ｢ますよ。

My translation:

Woman: "Uh, well, I guess the bill was pretty large?"
Man: "No, it was a set meal at 550 yen, which I guess is usual?"
Woman: "Wow, the eggs and nori alone must have been worth 550 yen, right?"
Man: "Yeah. Of course, the set meal comes with just the right accompaniments."

Is this right? I don't think the last sentence can be, because it doesn't seem to flow properly in the context of the conversation as a whole.

Also, I always get terribly confused with expressions like じゃないでしょう -- whether the speaker is suggesting something is the case or isn't the case. Have I got them right here?

 

[Mike Cash]

2. The person thinking about going is the speaker.

 

[eeky]

2. The person thinking about going is the speaker.

Oh yeah, that would make sense! Japanese for me is like crossword clues ... complete confusion, then once the answer is revealed it seems obvious. Thanks!

 

[Toritoribe]

1)
yes, "one", yes

3)
a kind of humble expression

１ ある事物を例示して、それを軽んじたり、婉曲 (えんきょく)に言ったりする意を表す。なんか。…などということは。「手伝い―できるか」「本気にする―ばかね」

なんて - goo辞書

4)
She is confirming that the price is not only for the eggs and nori (with rice, miso soup and maybe pickles) in the third line.
おかず means "main dish" in this case, thus, he says the eggs and nori are just the side dish in the last line.

 

[eeky]

Hi Toritoribe, I have just noticed that the ends of some of the lines in my post have become corrupted. I think this is some bug with the forums. Let's see if this is better:

男： いいえ、定食で５５０円だから普通じゃないでしょうか。
女： まさかその卵とのりだけで５５０円じゃないでしょうね。
男： ええ。もちろん定食にはちゃんとおかずが付いていますよ。

I despair that I will ever understand the use of じゃない.

a) If I understand you correctly, by ５５０円じゃないでしょうね, the woman is suggesting and requesting confirmation that the charge of 550 yen was was not only for the eggs and nori. Then, by ええ, the man is confirming "yes [in English we would say 'no'], the charge was not only for the eggs and nori". Is that correct so far?

b) I am trying to understand the last sentence like this:

もちろん = Of course,
定食には = in the set meal
ちゃんと = ???
おかずが付いていますよ。= the main course is 'attached' (i.e. included along with the other things mentioned earlier)

Is this correct?

c) What exactly does ちゃんと mean here?

d) In the dictionary おかず is defined as "accompaniment for rice dishes; side dish", yet you say it means main dish? Is the dictionary wrong?

e) In the earlier line, when the man says 普通じゃないでしょうか, is he suggesting that 550 yen is usual or isn't usual?

 

[Toritoribe]

Yeah, I can guess the correct sentences would be so.

a)
She is asking その卵とのりだけの定食で５５０円じゃないでしょうね, i.e., she thinks the price is expensive if the main dish is only the eggs and nori, therefore she is confirming it is not so(= there is a main dish besides the eggs and nori).

b)
Yes.

c)
"Rightly/Correctly" might be close.

d)

The picture above is a typical morning set meal. おかず refers to the dishes except rice (nori, pickles, egg, salmon and occasionally miso soup) in the wide sense ("accompaniment for rice dishes" in the definition). Whereas it also refers only to the main dish(salmon, in this picture) in the narrow sense. Other dishes than salmon (nori, pickles, or egg) are called 付け合わせ. He uses おかず in this narrow sense.

e)
普通じゃないでしょうか means "is usual". If it's 普通じゃないでしょう, the meaning changes to "is not usual(, don't you think so?)".

 

[eeky]

Gosh, I could never manage all that lot in the morning!

普通じゃないでしょうか means "is usual". If it's 普通じゃないでしょう, the meaning changes to "is not usual(, don't you think so?)".

So, is this a general rule? Can I say that ~じゃないでしょうか always means the speaker thinks / is suggesting "is ~", and ~じゃないでしょう without か (but possibly with ね) always means the speaker thinks / is suggesting "isn't ~"?

 

[Toritoribe]

Generally, yes.
Heve you learned the structure ～（な）のではないか/～（な）んじゃないか? Roughly speaking, ～じゃないでしょうか can be considered a variation of this form. The difference is that じゃないでしょうか can't be used for self-questioning unlike じゃないか, since polite forms can't be used for the speaker themselves.
e.g.
彼は日本人なのではないか/彼は日本人なんじゃないか/彼は日本人なんじゃないでしょうか（＝ 彼は日本人だと思う）
I think he would be a Japanese.

彼は来ないんじゃないか/彼は来ないんじゃないでしょうか（＝ 彼は来ないと思う。）
I don't think he will come.


As for ～じゃないでしょう, it's the guess form or softened expression of じゃないです, and じゃないです is the polite form of じゃない. Thus, it says じゃない.
e.g.
彼は日本人じゃない --> 彼は日本人じゃないです(polite) --> 彼は日本人じゃないでしょう(guess/softened)


普通じゃないでしょうね has a nuance of "agreement", i.e., it shows the speaker presumes the person s/he is talking to would also think it's not usual.

 

[eeky]

Thanks Toritoribe.