なりたかない / 生まれたて / おもしろいことをする / いっていられる約束

[eeky]

Hi,


1. 「おとなになんかなりたかないや。」

Is なりたかない = なりたくはない?

「よかないわ、知ってるくせに。」

Is よかない = よくはない?


2. 「だってね、生まれたての赤ちゃんがはじめて笑うと、 妖精がひとり生まれるのよ。」

I get the general idea of what this means, but grammatically what exactly is 生まれたて（の）?


3. 「うんと、おもしろいことをするんだ。」

a) At this point in the narrative, it would make sense for the subject to be either the speaker or some 妖精 that have previously been mentioned. Is there any clue in the Japanese as to which is meant?

b) Could おもしろいことをする refer either to present activity or future activity, or must it be future?


4. ウェンディーは、できればもっと長くいっていられる約束にしてほし かったのです。

I am getting lost in the middle of this. Is いっていられる potential form? Who is the subject of にして? I don't really understand いっていられる約束にして at all.

 

[Toritoribe]

1)
Yes and yes.

2)
～たて is a suffix, meaning "the state of just having finished the action/movement".

たて【立て】の英語・英訳 - 和英辞書 - goo辞書

3) a)
It seems that only the context can determine it.

b)
When the speaker is the subject, it must be future.

4)
Yes, that's potential. Wendy is the subject of してほしかった.

 

[eeky]

Thank you.

4. I think I am getting in a muddle again about ほしい. I thought in してほしい that the subject of してis not the person who wants? Since in this case the person who wants is Wendy, how can she also be the subject of して?

 

[Toritoribe]

It depends on the way of parsing. Although I believe it's common to treat してほしい as a compound verb. (In other words, the actual doer which is indicated by に is treated as the target of してほしい, not the subject of して.)

 

[eeky]

Well, let me look at it from another angle. I understand もっと長くいっていられる約束 to mean "arrangement whereby Wendy can go (away on holiday) for a longer period of time". Is that correct so far?

Then, ignoring the ほしい part for a moment, what does にして actually mean in this case?

 

[Toritoribe]

I don't think the way of thinking "ignoring the ほしい part" works well, since it's not 約束にして、ほしかった.

 

[eeky]

OK, well what does にしてほし かった mean, and how can I understand the role of に?

 

[Toritoribe]

How do you think about this?

できれば約束をもっと長くいっていられるものにしてほしかったのです。

In this case, the nuance is more close to "to change". This is the difference between 約束にしてほしかった and 約束をしてほしかった.

 

[eeky]

Oh ... so does it mean "change the existing agreement into one whereby she can stay away longer"?

 

[Toritoribe]

Or, "to prefer" might be more suitable than "to change". Anyway, Wendy thought もっと長くいっていられる約束 was better than the existing agreement.

 

[eeky]

Right, in full I meant "wanted to change..." of course, which is close enough to your "preferred".

You say that もっと長くいっていられる約束にして、ほしかった doesn't work, and yet もっと長くいっていられる約束にして makes sense by itself, doesn't it?

 

[Toritoribe]

Yes, of course. For instance, もっと長くいっていられる約束にして、遊んでほしかった makes perfect sense.

 

[eeky]

But doesn't that again mean that the subjects of 遊んで and ほしかった are the same person? Previously I thought there was a general rule with ～てほしい that the wanter and the doer are different people.* I thought earlier you meant that this （に） してほしい was a special case in which this rule doesn't necessarily apply. In fact, does this supposed "rule" not exist at all?

* See earlier post: とで / 開きした / 恥ずかしい / ほしい / でも先生はお蔭で

 

[Toritoribe]

As I wrote previously, the actual doer which is indicated by に is treated as the target of してほしい, not the subject of して. For instance, in the sentence 彼に遊んでほしかった, 彼, who is the actual doer of 遊ぶ, is the target of 遊んでほしかった. If the subject of ほしい is also the doer, 彼と遊びたかった is used, as I wrote in the thread you linked. I don't think the term "subject" is a good choice. In a English sentence "She wanted him to play", "him" is called "the subject"?

 

[thomas]

I don't think the term "subject" is a good choice. In a English sentence "She wanted him to play", "him" is called "the subject"?

I think it's called an "indirect object" (in German and Latin always in Dative case).

 

[letianchen]

As I wrote previously, the actual doer which is indicated by に is treated as the target of してほしい, not the subject of して. For instance, in the sentence 彼に遊んでほしかった, 彼, who is the actual doer of 遊ぶ, is the target of 遊んでほしかった. If the subject of ほしい is also the doer, 彼と遊びたかった is used, as I wrote in the thread you linked. I don't think the term "subject" is a good choice. In a English sentence "She wanted him to play", "him" is called "the subject"?

Hi sorry to interrupt but
彼と遊びたかった and 彼に遊んでほしかった are not the same?
I thought they both mean you wan't to play with him. Rather the question should be, what is the role of に in the latter, can you make an example sentence with a translation maybe? I don't know what you mean by treated as the target.
ありがとうございます

 

[Yzlot]

This is how I think of it.

If you directly translate it to english, then usage of と and に would seem very similar. But they're actually very different. Especially for actions that go two ways(involves both parties), と involves reciprocation of the action. While に is always a one-sided view. In this case, this is how a Japanese speaker would probably view each sentence.

彼と遊びたかった - I wanted to play with him.
彼に遊びたかった - I wanted to use him as a toy and play with him(regardless of his feelings).

The latter would definitely be found detestable.

I'll also give my input on the difference between ~たかった and ~ほしかった, though it might not be correct. I'll hope someone can correct me in case I'm wrong(and at least now I'll know).

~たい expresses a stronger personal desire than ~ほしい and is only used for personal desire. Also, ~たい is attached to verbs, while ほしい usually refers to an object (i.e. 金が欲しい).

~てほしい is usually used in the context that you ask someone to do something for you. I'm not sure about using it to describe your own actions. Like in the above sentence, 彼と遊んでほしかった reads like "I wanted you to play with him."

I'm not sure if you can use it to describe you own actions. It would sound like "I want to play with him because someone told me to," which sounds really weird and rude.

 

[eeky]

As I wrote previously, the actual doer which is indicated by に is treated as the target of してほしい, not the subject of して.

I'm sorry Toritoribe, I didn't understand that, not in the context of the original sentence, ウェンディーは、できればもっと長くいっていられる約束にしてほし かったのです.

Do you mean that もっと長くいっていられる約束 is the "actual doer"? What is it doing?

 

[Toritoribe]

Hi sorry to interrupt but
彼と遊びたかった and 彼に遊んでほしかった are not the same?
I thought they both mean you wan't to play with him. Rather the question should be, what is the role of に in the latter, can you make an example sentence with a translation maybe? I don't know what you mean by treated as the target.

彼に遊んでほしかった doesn't always mean "I wanted him to play with me". It just says "to want him to play". For instance, he did only studying and the speaker thought that he should play (game, sports, etc) other than studying, 彼に遊んでほしかった is used. Of course, 彼に遊んでほしかった can be used also as 彼と遊びたかった

に indicates the doer (= the player "遊ぶ人"), as I wrote in my previous post in this thread.


彼に遊びたかった sounds odd.
～てほしい can't be used when the speaker themselves is the doer.
The interpretation of 彼と遊んでほしかった is correct. the doer(=the player) is you or third person(when it's obvious from the context).

I'm sorry Toritoribe, I didn't understand that, not in the context of the original sentence, ウェンディーは、できればもっと長くいっていられる約束にしてほし かったのです.

Do you mean that もっと長くいっていられる約束 is the "actual doer"? What is it doing?

The doer is not mentioned in that sentence. Wendy didn't have the authority to determine the span length, did she? The sentence shows that the one who determined it was not her. It actually means ウェンディーは、[a person]にできればもっと長くいっていられる約束にしてほしかったのです.

 

[Glenn]

君に彼と遊んで欲しかった。 "I wanted you to play(/visit) with him."

From that, I think you can get what 彼に遊んで欲しかった means.

[Edit] Wow, a lot happened before I could finish my reply. haha

 

[eeky]

It actually means ウェンディーは、[a person]にできればもっと長くいっていられる約束にしてほしかったのです.

Thank you, I did not realise that. It clarifies things a great deal.

And is "a person" the (logical) subject of して?

 

[Toritoribe]

Yes, I would use the term the doer or the target of してほしかった instead of the subject, though. ;-)

 

[letianchen]

thanks everyone mabye I can confirm something

So how is this
(私は)彼に遊んでほしかった
(I) wanted him to play (with me).
(私は)彼と遊びたかった
(I) wanted to play with him.

edit:
Wow the more I think about this I don't even understand, this sounds sketchy to me even in english o.o

 

[eeky]

Yes, I would use the term the doer or the target of してほしかった instead of the subject, though. ;-)

OK. Can I go back now to もっと長くいっていられる約束にして、遊んでほしかった. Is the "subject" (in my terminology) of 遊んで — in other words, the person who would actually perform the action 遊んで — also the implied but omitted "a person"?

 

[Toritoribe]

thanks everyone mabye I can confirm something

So how is this
(私は)彼に遊んでほしかった
(I) wanted him to play (with me).
(私は)彼と遊びたかった
(I) wanted to play with him.

edit:
Wow the more I think about this I don't even understand, this sounds sketchy to me even in english o.o

(私は)彼に遊んでほしかった
(I) wanted him to play (often "with me", but "with someone" or "alone" is also possible).

OK. Can I go back now to もっと長くいっていられる約束にして、遊んでほしかった. Is the "subject" (in my terminology) of 遊んで — in other words, the person who would actually perform the action 遊んで — also the implied but omitted "a person"?

Yes, that's right. もっと長くいっていられる約束にして、[a person]に遊んでほしかった.