勘ぐられそうだったため vs 勘ぐられそうだため

[zuotengdazuo]

Hi. Could you please have a look at the circled part?

Why is 勘ぐられそう considered as a past action? Can't we use 勘ぐられそうだ here?
Thank you.

 

[bentenmusume]

This is one of those cases where I'm not entirely certain why the past form confuses you at all. At the time the 十香 performed the action of altering the time she left the house (家を出る時間をずらした), she had already had the feeling that people were going to be suspicious about things (勘ぐられそうだった) if they left at the same time. It's framing that feeling as something she specifically had before (and was the reason for) the decision to leave at a different time.

More so than that, it can't be 勘ぐられそうだ because you can't connect nouns or na-adjectives to ため with だ. (noun)のため or (na-adjective)なため are grammatically possible, but using だった here doesn't strike me as unusual or surprising at all.

 

[SomeCallMeChris]

The example used the 「と」conditional, which implies to me that 「一緒に登校するといろいろと勘ぐられそう」is a general rule (which it most likely is). Using だった sounds like it was a general rule and the rule itself changed (which it most likely hasn't).

If it were 「一緒に登校したら」it would, I think, express that it was a past condition about that time alone, and だった would naturally express that the whole concern was in the past. No general principle was ever involved.

Well, I think this latter reading (and all that bentenmusume-san explained) is clearly the intention anyway; I just find the choice of conditional a bit odd to express that meaning as it has those unintended implications.

 

[bentenmusume]

I'm not entirely sure what you're suggesting here. It's the simple "as a natural course of X, Y would happen" meaning of the と conditional. If they left at the same time, people would naturally get suspicious (about why they're living together, what their relationship is, etc. etc.). There is no actual "rule" that could be changed or unchanged (unless you're using this word figuratively?)

Still, it's not odd or unusual because whether or not people would still be suspicious now or not isn't the point. The ～そうだったため doesn't suggest or imply that people would no longer be suspicious now. It's simply that the person in question (十香?) had that feeling before, and based upon that reason took the action described afterwards.

 

[SomeCallMeChris]

"as a natural course of X, Y would happen"

That's precisely what I meant by rule. Not a rule made by society, but an expected outcome as a matter of principle.

That is, ＡとＢ is used to express that "if ever A, then B" or "whenever A, then B". Putting that expression in the past now sounds to me like "if ever before A, then B" ;
you seem to be saying that だった only puts B in the past, not the expression ＡとＢ, which is not what I would have expected.

(と is also used of course for past conditionals that are very specific when both A and B have already happened, even if B was not an expected outcome from the natural course of A, but that seems entirely different to me.)

 

[Toritoribe]

There is no problem with 一緒に登校するといろいろと勘ぐられそうなため. The past form shows that the person (probably 士道) thought so previously, as bentenmusume-san wrote.

EDIT:
Just out of curiosity, didn't you have any question about 次いで殿町が手を振るが、折紙はぴくりとも顔を動かさなかった。? Isn't it unnatural for you to use the present form 振る for a past event? (This is obviously done before 動かさなかった, right?)

 

[bentenmusume]

Putting that expression in the past now sounds to me a like "if ever before A, then B" ; you seem to be saying that だった only puts B in the past, not the expression ＡとＢ, which is not what I would have expected.

I think this idea that the applicability of the "general rule" is strictly dictated by the tense of 勘ぐられそうだった is what is tripping you up.

Of course the general principle that people would get suspicious still applies if they were to walk to school together tomorrow, next week, or two months from now. The author is simply framing 十香 (or 士道?)'s realization/awareness of this as something that happened in the past. S/he's not "currently" thinking 一緒に登校するといろいろと勘ぐられそう "now", because s/he's already taken the steps to avoid that coming to pass (and, ostensibly, will continue to do so as long as necessary).

edit: Whoops, looks like Toritoribe-san got the jump on me. I'll leave this here in case another explanation will help to reinforce it.
edit again: Added a blockquote to make it clear that I was replying to Chris-san's post.

 

[SomeCallMeChris]

Hmmm. If that's how it's read, then the same should apply to all other counter-factual predictions/expectations.

ボトンを押すと切符が出るはずだった ⇒ A ticket should have come out when the button was pressed.
アイドルが来ると始まる予定だった ⇒ (It) was planned to start when the idol arrived.

と can't be used for actual counter-factuals, and when B actually happened we have ＡとＢ⇒"As soon as A happened, then B happened."

I think that covers all possible past tense conditional と.

 

[zuotengdazuo]

Thank you all.

EDIT:
Just out of curiosity, didn't you have any question about 次いで殿町が手を振るが、折紙はぴくりとも顔を動かさなかった。? Isn't it unnatural for you to use the present form 振る for a past event? (This is obviously done before 動かさなかった, right?)

Isn't the 振る used because the action is described from the character's viewpoint?
If this doesn't make sense, why is 振る used in dictionary form?

 

[Toritoribe]

Whose viewpoint do you think it is? Also, does that mean you think the viewpoint is changed in the second half of the sentence?
I'm interested in why you didn't care about 振るが、動かさなかった, but why you had some suspicion about 勘ぐられそうだったため、ずらした.

 

[zuotengdazuo]

Whose viewpoint do you think it is? Also, does that mean you think the viewpoint is changed in the second half of the sentence?

Isn't it 殿町's viewpoint? OK. I'm not quite sure why る form is used for 振る. Maybe it's just historical present that is widely adopted for vividness in Japanese novels.

I'm interested in why you didn't care about 振るが、動かさなかった, but why you had some suspicion about 勘ぐられそうだったため、ずらした.

Because I have learned from a previous thread that historical present is widely adopted in Japanese novels to make the scene more vivid. And it seems all ル forms can be explained this way. But I don't feel there is a universal rule for タ/テイタ form. So generally I don't pay much attention to the dictionary form but I would think more about タ/テイタ form.