Do foreign soldiers in Afghanistan have honor?

Are you implying that we're purposely targeting and killing innocent people over there,

YES! The Taliban was not doing anything to anyone outside of Afghanistan when America made them the enemy.

YES! So many people killed have not been identified beforehand whether as civilians or combatants.

YES! When you blow up a house full of people to get one man, you KNOW innocents will die.

Killing innocent people and targeting certain groups for the sake of economy and world hegemony are as disgusting as seeking to eradicate a race from one country based on ideas of racial purity.
 
Tamayo, Taliban do not want to come and invade your nation..AlQaeda does.
Have you asked your self : why did we "your nation" invade other nations ?

The two may indeed be separate entities, but that does not change the fact that one is an infection within the body of the other. As much as I wish there was some solution that would allow only the enemy to be eradicated, there's only so much that can be done.

At the end of the day, an infection is an infection, and sometimes the safest answer is to resort to amputation, as horrible as it may be. There is no possible way to save everyone, but the first step to that dream is to seize every opportunity there is to strike at the problem with extreme prejudice to keep it from spreading. I do have very deep sympathy for the people who are get caught up in the middle of the war.
 
YES! The Taliban was not doing anything to anyone outside of Afghanistan when America made them the enemy.

YES! So many people killed have not been identified beforehand whether as civilians or combatants.

YES! When you blow up a house full of people to get one man, you KNOW innocents will die.

Killing innocent people and targeting certain groups for the sake of economy and world hegemony are as disgusting as seeking to eradicate a race from one country based on ideas of racial purity.

I didn't ask about any of those. I asked you if we're purposely targeting innocent people.
 
Because the Taliban gave political asylum to Al Qaeda. Seems pretty clear that they were happily harboring terrorists.

As happy as America was to arm terrorists against the Soviets. As if the United States can be said to commit no acts of terrorism!

There was no need to declare war against the entire Taliban. As if they were all fully aware of everything al Q had done thanks to their LCD TV sets and information from their spy satellites. Puhleze!

Do you really believe that its legitimate to a kill people for harboring suspects? And keep killing them even after the suspects and even the actual people who harbored them are dead??

Tamayo was right about one thing. This is about world hegemony. Its also about making money off war. This harboring of terrorists crap is just a thin excuse.

Very few nations would proudly home self-proclaimed terrorists, regardless of the politics.

Right. What the hell is the difference between a backward people doing that, and America quietly protecting Shiro Ishii? Or propping up Saddam Hussein? Or Manuel Noriega? Because the United States has the global domination to protect them in their own countries, and the Taliban could only do it in Afghanistan??
 
Its also about making money off war. This harboring of terrorists crap is just a thin excuse.

It is literally impossible to argue with an extremist. I don't know where you're hoping for this thread, or any of your threads for that matter, to go if you're so stuck on asserting things that you cannot and will not prove. Since the very beginning, I've had little reason to think more of you than just your every day conspiracy theorist.
 
I didn't ask about any of those. I asked you if we're purposely targeting innocent people.

Yes they are targeting innocent people. Its in every statement there.

Your excuse is like justifying shooting through a crowd of people to kill one criminal, and looking upon the bodies of the women and children you shot through, you say its okay, because you were not targeting them.

You pull this stupid crap every discussion. You try to justify everything with semantics.
 
It is literally impossible to argue with an extremist.

Yes I know. Its a wonder I keep talking to you!

I don't know where you're hoping for this thread, or any of your threads, for that matter to go, if you're so stuck on asserting things that you cannot and will not prove.

Well your burden of proof seems to be to have God Himself come down and say "Mark of Zorro is right". You don't listen. You don't have any intention of fixing your brainwashing. You only seek to justify what you have been told is true by authority.
 
Yes they are targeting innocent people. Its in every statement there.

Your excuse is like justifying shooting through a crowd of people to kill one criminal, and looking upon the bodies of the women and children you shot through, you say its okay, because you were not targeting them.

You pull this stupid crap every discussion. You try to justify everything with semantics.

When people aren't willing to step up and take out a threat to humanity, you end up with situations like the Holocaust. Burying one's head in the sand not only provokes more violence, it's turning a head away from a cancer that continues to grow and threaten the well-being of other countries.
 
Tamayo...The US and NATO ate the bite, AlQaeda led them to Afghanistan to drain their money, Soldiers, etc...Until this moment the winner is Alqaeda, the US killed some leaders and hundreds of the group but in the other hand, the whole western nations are having economic/security troubles.
Compare the western economy/security before 9/11 and 12 years after 9/11 !!!
And Trust me, The US and european system can stop Alqaeda and all other Jihadi groups with a very very small cost and with a very big benefit.
 
Yes I know. Its a wonder I keep talking to you!



Well your burden of proof seems to be to have God Himself come down and say "Mark of Zorro is right". You don't listen. You don't have any intention of fixing your brainwashing. You only seek to justify what you have been told is true by authority.

I never asked for anything of the sort. I've simply asked for you to point out the connection between your evidence that gives you the right to impose your ridiculous extremist views. Linking a bunch of random testimonials saying "Hurr we did bad things, war is so bad" doesn't count.


Tamayo...The US and NATO ate the bite, AlQaeda led them to Afghanistan to drain their money, Soldiers, etc...Until this moment the winner is Alqaeda, the US killed some leaders and hundreds of the group but in the other hand, the whole western nations are having economic/security troubles.
Compare the western economy/security before 9/11 and 12 years after 9/11 !!!
And Trust me, The US and european system can stop Alqaeda and all other Jihadi groups with a very very small cost and with a very big benefit.


Zorro seems to think that the US is in it to make money, somehow. I smell some conflicting premises in here.
 
Zorro seems to think that the US is in it to make money, somehow. I smell some conflicting premises in here.
Afghanistan is the best strategic spot in Asia, The US can keep an eye on :
1: Russia 2: China 3: Iran 4: India 5: Pakistan Plus Afghanistan land contains one trillion dollars of wealth according to a report in 2010.

Irag: The second Oil source in the world and Baghdad was the Capital of Muslim world...

The picture is very clear Tamayo.
 
When people aren't willing to step up and take out a threat to humanity, you end up with situations like the Holocaust.


Threat to humanity??? Where do you get his stuff??? And where the hell does the label end??? What group could not be labeled a threat to humanity? What group virtually hasn't? Blacks, gays, pagans, communists, Asians, pedophiles, Protestants, etc. etc. Yet it seems to me that the biggest threats to humanity are the United States and Russian with all those nukes. But yeah, we got to root out those Talibani before they start global genocide!

Dude, I have had it with you. I seriously have. I could make up better excuses for this nonsense all by myself.
 
Dude, I have had it with you. I seriously have. I could make up better excuses for this nonsense all by myself.

All these posts later, and you still haven't fixed the issue of not backing your claims up with direct evidence and jumping to absolutely extreme assertions. You will never see eye to eye with anyone on this forum if you keep lowering yourself to that level.

By the way, all of my ignored questions and arguments, which were leading somewhere far from this stupid dispute we've degraded to,are still wide open for consideration and criticism.
 
Afghanistan is the best strategic spot in Asia, The US can keep an eye on :
1: Russia 2: China 3: Iran 4: India 5: Pakistan Plus Afghanistan land contains one trillion dollars of wealth according to a report in 2010.

Irag: The second Oil source in the world and Baghdad was the Capital of Muslim world...

The picture is very clear Tamayo.

I'm not saying that the middle east is a barren wasteland that would bear no fruit if another country took it over and started exploiting it in such a way, but is that to say that powerful countries should stay away from nations which willfully house terrorists because people might get the wrong idea?
 
I'm not saying that the middle east is a barren wasteland that would bear no fruit if another country took it over and started exploiting it in such a way, but is that to say that powerful countries should stay away from nations which willfully house terrorists because people might get the wrong idea?
No one born as a terrorist, Terrorism is a reaction not a habit or something that born with babies.
Using power to get what belongs to someone else is the terrorism, Am i wrong?
I'm afraid we are off topic again :D
 
No one born as a terrorist, Terrorism is a reaction not a habit or something that born with babies.

Yeah, that's true, but as with anything, ideas and motives last a lot longer than just the people who hold them.



I'm afraid we are off topic again :D

Sadly, yes. I think I'll probably just refrain from posting in here anymore unless people have some actual contribution to discussion.
 
All these posts later, and you still haven't fixed the issue of not backing your claims up with direct evidence and jumping to absolutely extreme assertions.

This from Mr. Nolinks himself. This is why I am done with you. You insist on an impossible burden of proof for me, none for yourself, and you refuse to accept the obvious.

This is not a discussion. This is you flinging crap. Its like you are the brother of 7stars.

By the way, all of my ignored questions and arguments, which were leading somewhere far from this stupid dispute we've degraded to,are still wide open for consideration and criticism.

And more crap. I ignorned nothing. And you are open for nothing. You have nothing to offer any but the selfish and the hateful, the careless and murderous.

Someone blows up a house full of civilians you say? Well you can't prove we TARGETED them! It was just one guy inside we targeted! We didn't know about the kids! eerrrm wait! Human shields, human shields! Don't look at us!

Load of complete $#!T and you know it.

You do not debate, you sabotage and lie.
 
This from Mr. Nolinks himself. This is why I am done with you. You insist on an impossible burden of proof for me, none for yourself, and you refuse to accept the obvious.

It's interesting to me how you call the burden of proof you've been ignoring this whole time "impossible" but then go on to say that the things you've been asserting should be obvious. Also, you seem like you've taken an argumentation class or two. Don't you remember "Whoever asserts must prove"? You're the one who brought all of this up -- I'm just testing your case. If you'd calm down a bit and stop with the extreme conclusions you've been jumping to, you might find that our standpoints are a lot more similar than you thought.


This is not a discussion. This is you flinging crap. Its like you are the brother of 7stars.

Where was crap flung? If you hadn't ignored half of my posts, we'd still be discussing the topic at hand.


And more crap. I ignorned nothing. And you are open for nothing.

I'm open to, and have invited you several times to pick up where you left our several arguments off. I don't know how I'm supposed to help you there.


Someone blows up a house full of civilians you say? Well you can't prove we TARGETED them! It was just one guy inside we targeted! We didn't know about the kids! eerrrm wait! Human shields, human shields! Don't look at us!

It doesn't seem like you know this, but I'm actually not for the war in the middle east. Here's something I can give you -- I'll NEVER try and say that our government intentionally kills innocent people, and that they have some motive to just barge in, guns ablaze, but I can agree with you that in handful of cases (too many), our administration has been too careless about their targets. I'm not too huge a fan of the "world police" role our government plays.
 
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I'll NEVER try and say that our government intentionally kills innocent people, and that they have some motive to just barge in, guns ablaze,

Glad we got that settled. You refuse to listen, and you insist on defending the government. Thanks. We understand why you ignore everything now or make up excuses. You won't even entertain the possibility that the government and military know perfectly well there are children in a house, or expect them to target individuals when they leave the house. Or when you say this:

These targets pose a huge threat to our country for one reason or another. If and when intel suggests we have a small window of opportunity to wipe those targets out, we literally have no choice but to draft the most efficient plan, storm in, and hope for the cleanest, most surgical removal of the threat.

Blowing up house is NOT surgical removal of specific enemies. Neither is blowing up some random guy who has what appears to be a gun over there, minding his own business.

But why bother explaining. You will NEVER admit the government intentionally kills innocents, which is exactly what you do when you know the innocents are there, know there is an extremely high chance they are there, or just bomb without really knowing anything much at all. Its all the same. The Taliban might just be a bit more sloppy is all. Maybe.

If I missed anything this this time. Consider it intentional. My patience has been tried enough.
 
As happy as America was to arm terrorists against the Soviets. As if the United States can be said to commit no acts of terrorism!

There was no need to declare war against the entire Taliban. As if they were all fully aware of everything al Q had done thanks to their LCD TV sets and information from their spy satellites. Puhleze!

Do you really believe that its legitimate to a kill people for harboring suspects? And keep killing them even after the suspects and even the actual people who harbored them are dead??

Tamayo was right about one thing. This is about world hegemony. Its also about making money off war. This harboring of terrorists crap is just a thin excuse.



Right. What the hell is the difference between a backward people doing that, and America quietly protecting Shiro Ishii? Or propping up Saddam Hussein? Or Manuel Noriega? Because the United States has the global domination to protect them in their own countries, and the Taliban could only do it in Afghanistan??
Sorry, your reply was completely off-topic. This thread is not about what America did with any country in the 80's. You can say they are hypocritical, or that they deserved Al Qaeda attacks, or whatever, and have a case, but it doesn't take away from the fact that the Taleban housed a self-proclaimed terrorist network that attacked America multiple times. Nothing at all.

Zorro, you've changed from how you used to post. I don't know if it's because you are arguing with so many people so often here, but really, what your saying is not a defence of the Taleban, much the same way you wouldn't accept an argument about Japan's pre-war policies as a defence for the atomic bombings. One case at a time. Either the Taleban was committing crimes or they weren't. In the case of America in the 80's, yeah, I think they were committing crimes. It has nothing to do with the legality of the Afghanistan war.

George Washington was a terrorist too. Case by case.
 
I don't find it so off-topic. The topic is honor. To fight with the dishonorable is dishonorable. Dishonor is proven by history and even when people have a positive or unapologetic view of dishonorable history today. The U.S. government's dishonor is beyond the pale as proven by history and proven by their continued lies, propaganda, and pride in dishonorable history, including very recent history.

About the only fighting for the U.S. government I could accept at this point might be direct self defense of continental America, and Alaska, Hawaii, Guam and Puerto Rico and direct attacks on those who have actually attacked those places, or any territory or vessel of America's where Americans could claim to legitimately be (not in Iranian waters for example, or just off Iran with warships). Special ops actions against al-Quaida would have been most honorable, if only the U.S. government were perpetrating only that.

Either the Taleban was committing crimes or they weren't.

A broad question. No government exists that is not committing crimes! The question is if the Taliban committed crimes against America. I would say no, absolutely not. They did not attack America. There is no reason to believe they knew bin Laden would or even did after the fact. They were not given an offer to cough up bin Laden. They were given an ultimatum, yet another dishonorable action by America. Bush wanted war Its painfully obvious. He would have been quite left in the lurch if he gave the Taliban a real offer, or even time to think about it.

Its all just too obvious and too many historical examples to go using the word honor in any sense but the little honor on the battlefield that I say again, is vastly overshadowed by the dishonor of serving in a needless, unjust war.

Zorro, you've changed from how you used to post.

Thank you for noticing. Plenty of things bothering my lately though, so understand it is not only or even mostly people here lying about me with impunity. They are like gnats in a swamp. Its the leeches and mosquitoes that have most of my attention.

But as for here, off topic posts are being tolerated, such as posts that drag issues from old threads to new ones.. Its no help. And the offenders refuse to correct their own behavior.

Edit: So much misinformation out there its had its toll on me as well. The Taliban offered to cough up bin Laden if they were shown proof his guilt. Bush flat out refused that simple deal and kept bombing Afghanistan, which he already started about three weeks after 9/11. Really fast considering bin Laden never claimed responsibility. Just like that, they were bombing the Taliban.
 
Right. What the hell is the difference between a backward people doing that, and America quietly protecting Shiro Ishii? Or propping up Saddam Hussein? Or Manuel Noriega? Because the United States has the global domination to protect them in their own countries, and the Taliban could only do it in Afghanistan??

Charming.

I think Zorro has played too many video games, seen to many films.

You are either a complete *****, swimming in ignorance - or possibly the most inteligent and insightful person i have ever met.

You have managed to do what all the minds in the UN, AN, NATO, EU, State dept, foreign office, university's, Think tanks, and steering groups like the CFR and Bildenberg have so far failed to do.

With an almost Buhda like clarity - have you really managed to distill one of the most morally grey, interconnected, complex, and often contentious topics. Into a clearly defined black and white issue with, best of all, single sentence solutions?

I bet Hilary Clinton is reading this and just kicking herself for not thinking of all this herself.

Or perhaps it's not simple,
Perhaps there is no one singular solution, because there is not one singular 'enemy' with a singular motive.
It's an interconnected web that is by no means limited to Afghanistan.

The motivations of power, money, control, ego, and fear playing as much a role as ideology in this shadowy game of cat and mouse we call the war on terror.

Even that name is a complete simplification. "war on Terror" as if it's only terrorists.

Take the narco-terrorism that has it's source in Afghan poppy fields - and is aimed squarely at Russia.
This may be something that has Al-Q and the Taleban at the base and top of the pyramid. But it is only possible because other networks are working with them.
Without the Powerful Russian organised crime syndicates on board the drugs would struggle to find their way into the hands of street level dealers.
Without the use of the long established Kazak smuggler network - most of it wouldn't even get into Russia in the first place.

We are seeing the instability spread to Yemen and parts of Africa, notably Somalia and now Mali - with incidents such as bombing civilians happening in other African countries with a large concentration of Christians.

There is no dr. Evil
Even Bin laden was largely out of the loop already when he was killed/captured

The issue of attacks on civilian homes in Afghanistan - actually it's a pretty rare event.
The taleban no longer really fight from within peoples homes, because they know that if a mans house gets bombed because taleban fighters are using it to hide in, and especially if that results in the death or injury of a civilian. Then these actions make the Taleban less popular.

If 3 dudes with guns run into your house, one of them uses an RPG to try and kill some soldiers, and as a result your house gets smashed in.
Who are you going to blame for that?
you could say, well if the USA hadn't bombed my house.......
or
If those dudes hadn't forced me out of my own house at gun point and then turned my house into a legitimate target, my house would still be standing.

Hearts and Minds

The taleban actually want to come back as a political entity - there are actually secret negotiations between the USA/ISAF and the Taleban.
The end result has been that the more moderate voices within senior taleban leadership are actually gaining a lot more traction.
The taleban are patriots - they want this war to end as much as everyone else.
And with the oppertunity to come back into the political fold and have a real and meaningful say in the future of a modern, inclusive and diverse Afghanistan is the true solution to peace that the International community is moving towards.

It won't happen over night
But it is why soldiers are on the ground.
Thats what they are in effect fighting for.
I'd say that such a cause is one that can be fought with honour.
 
If 3 dudes with guns run into your house, one of them uses an RPG to try and kill some soldiers, and as a result your house gets smashed in.
Who are you going to blame for that?
you could say, well if the USA hadn't bombed my house.......
or
If those dudes hadn't forced me out of my own house at gun point and then turned my house into a legitimate target, my house would still be standing.

A prime example of how people get sidetracked in the most stupid of ways, and why we can't hand them weapons and should not tell them they have honor when they don't.

He actually thinks its the house I care about!

Its funny, but not in a way that makes me laugh.
 
Glad we got that settled. You refuse to listen, and you insist on defending the government. Thanks. We understand why you ignore everything now or make up excuses. You won't even entertain the possibility that the government and military know perfectly well there are children in a house, or expect them to target individuals when they leave the house.

Knowing that there will be innocent casualties doesn't mean that they're targeting them. I don't know how that mind of yours reaches that conclusion. Perhaps I should be more specific. Yes, I know and will acknowledge that my country (and any country that's ever been in a war, for that matter) is realistic enough to understand that the death of some innocent people is a tragic, but unavoidable consequence of war. What I meant though, (what you seem to be asserting otherwise) is that our tactical planners aren't sitting around a table discussing things like "Gee, what could do we so that more innocent people die? After all, that's the whole reason we've spent billions on mobilizing our forces and putting their lives in danger!" That'd just be unrealistic and stupid.


Blowing up house is NOT surgical removal of specific enemies.

Sometimes, no, not at all. But a lot of the time, it sure trumps dropping a nuke, or flattening a whole city to eliminate an extremely dangerous target. By the way, do you still think that the enemy is completely unaware of their surroundings? They operate in populated areas for a reason.


You will NEVER admit the government intentionally kills innocents

Sure. And you'll never have any evidence that can even imply that sort of motive.


But as for here, off topic posts are being tolerated, such as posts that drag issues from old threads to new ones.. Its no help. And the offenders refuse to correct their own behavior.

I'll just leave these here:
Your propensity to just accept injustice like this, and war too, makes me wanna puke. You seem to be the very embodiment of apathy.
Whether this or war, you just throw your hands in the air, and say "Oh well! Stuff happens!"
 
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