Animal Cruelty in Japan. How Bad is it and Why?

[Goldiegirl]

Strange but I felt you were the one who was blind. Do you believe those videos were fake? Hmmmm?

If your words can be twisted perhaps you should be more careful of what you write. I didn't twist anything. As for believing what is written or on you tube, you seem very eager to believe the Japanese dolphin hunters words, and not actually the pictures that prove their words false.

This forum is about Japan. This thread is about animal cruelty in Japan, or am I mistaken? There is plenty of cruelty in this world to go around; Japan doesn't hold the title.

 

[Tokis-Phoenix]

Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored.

Ignoring cruelty is allowing it.

How am i ignoring animal cruelty? Be specific (i dare you). You are accusing me of a serious matter which i take great offense too- i have done more for the welfare of animals than what you have probably ever done.

What "facts" have you come up with in this thread? Absolutely none- and you have the check to accuse me of ignoring facts!

If you're so confident about your opinions, why don't you actually come up with some real evidence/facts and stop avoiding questions etc?

Strange but I felt you were the one who was blind. Do you believe those videos were fake? Hmmmm?
If your words can be twisted perhaps you should be more careful of what you write. I didn't twist anything. As for believing what is written or on you tube, you seem very eager to believe the Japanese dolphin hunters words, and not actually the pictures that prove their words false.
This forum is about Japan. This thread is about animal cruelty in Japan, or am I mistaken? There is plenty of cruelty in this world to go around; Japan doesn't hold the title.

When did i ever say they were fake?
Plus it is "video" not "videos" (if you are referring to what has been posted on this thread).
I could twist your words to a great degree, however at least i have the decency not too- essentially in essence what you have just done is admit to twisting my words.

 

[Goldiegirl]

I haven't avoided a question yet. I see cruelty, you see something else. That is the difference between us, and no amount of pictures will change your mind.

 

[Chi65]

As for the videos. . .who does not let you watch, has something to hide. . .


Surely Japan is not the only one, who has cruelty towards animals. . .the only point is, we are on an according forum now and thus can talk about it, but the best would in fact be, to compare and just report, what we know.

Funny enough, I simply cannot recall any experiences having seen any cruelty in Japan myself, apart from fishing, if I then would consciously call it that. But once the fish is dead, I can register it as food, but cannot prepair it for a meal. Thats the same with many other animals.

All I know is, that I cannot do fishing in general, simply because I cannot stand the feeling of having one on a painfull bait. It feels, as if its in my own mouth then too. . .
a net would be different, yet I would release it again.

But strange enough, I can watch people do the fishing on the other hand. This only applies to the smaller ones, by the way. As soon, as I see bigger ones, I have to look away, because that feeling starts. No idea, why and when this started, and if it may have to do with "identifications" (mirror neurons working?)

But seeing a bird in the cold of the winter in my own yard, that is supposed to be inside a room or in a warm country, makes me chase that one to help it. This once happened, (the birdy even played "to be caught", funny) successfully, and we had a mostly free flying, happily and wonderfully singing bird at home for many years, shitting all over, but we could take it.
He also got a companion and was overall engaged and interested in birdy talks and singings, not so much in us :-(. Well, at least he was obviously happy and taught us a lot ;-)

If I then see, how the Chinese often handle their animals on markets, that often made me almost vomit. . .but this I have not seen in Japan, so far.

 

[Tokis-Phoenix]

Your argument about all animals being equal is correct in principle. I don't support the meat industry and Western style slaughterhouses anymore than I support this dolphin hunt; both methods are cruel and it's horrible seeing any living creature suffer.

However I think you're misinformed about how 'humane' the dolphin hunt actually is. There are plenty of videos on YouTube and on activist websites that clearly show dolphins having their throats slit and then writhing in pain on the ground in these covered warehouse type buildings. Also the dorsal fin is sometimes removed before the dolphin is dead. It's irrelevant whether you've personally seen them or not yet, or whether they've appeared in this very thread. It's very much the same level of inhumanity as a Western style cattle slaughterhouse although less organized simply because they are captured in the wild and then brought there vs. farmed and raised.

Cattle as I'm sure you already know are treated extremely poorly. Often they're skinned alive and are not fully dead when the processing begins. If you want to dismiss this because the organizations which use these videos are extremist or imbalanced (in your opinion) fair enough but the videos don't lie in and of themselves, they are simple videos.

The way slaughterhouses are set up also contributes to animal suffering. The livestock are herded into maze-like fenced areas which lead them one by one to the killing floor, this is done for organizational purposes. The cows hear other cows dying, and are well aware of their situation once they're running through this maze being prodded by electric poles and moved along. This kind of fear and anxiety is inhumane, as much so as it would be to hold a gun to someone's head and make them flinch or shake with fear because they're about to be killed.

I think herding the dolphins into that small bay, stabbing them with harpoons or other sharp tools, and then dragging them to that covered structure where other dolphins are already laying dead or dying, is essentially the same thing. The process is the same, although the surroundings are different.

The reason you encounter resistance from others is because these are the most obvious of facts to most people so your unwillingness to accept them may be interpreted as a blind eye of sorts.

Also I don't think dolphin slaughter is off-topic as far as animal cruelty in Japan goes because dolphins are animals, cruelty is taking place, and it's specific to Japan and this is a Japanese discussion board. Seems quite on-topic to me.

Of course not all animals are killed in a humane manner- its the way things currently are, and needs to be changed. But some animals are killed in a humane manner, and you cannot deny this as much as the fact that some animals are killed in an inhumane manner.

But why can't you show me these video's you know of? I can't spend all day dredging through hours of video's to find these specific videos, i have increasingly limited amount of time on the internet these days, but if you know of these specific videos, why don't you show me them? Or can you not find them yourself?


Also, not all slaughterhouses kill their animals in a cruel/inhumane manner. The massive industrial style ones tend to not take as much care as they should do in killing animals, and this ends up with the animals suffering.
However. This does not mean that all slaughterhouses kill animals badly- i have been inside smaller scale slaughterhouses and i was satisfied with the ways animals were being killed (all took a few moments/seconds to die).

If you asked me to find cases of pets being treated well and ones that weren't, i'm sure i could find 50 cases of owners not treating their pets well just as i could find 50 cases of their owners treating their pets well- but does this mean that all owners of pets treat their pets badly? No it does not. The same is true for slaughterhouses; some are very good, others are completely unacceptably bad- But just because there bad ones, doesn't mean they are all bad or all run in the same way etc.

You seem to have little realistic idea of how animals are killed in some slaughterhouses, practices can vary a great deal. It is incorrect to say that western slaughterhouses kill their animals inhumanely- you do realize you are summing up a massive part of the world in your assumption?

 

[Chi65]

for Tokis-Phoenix

Japan Killing Whales, Now Dolphins!

 

[Tokis-Phoenix]

I haven't avoided a question yet. I see cruelty, you see something else. That is the difference between us, and no amount of pictures will change your mind.

A classic example of you avoiding questions- check out post 39.

Also, don't go talking about the differences between us- you have no idea who i am or what my in-depth opinions are about a lot of stuff (but you probably wouldn't listen anyway, give you past track record...).

You seem to blindly accept whatever is told to you as long as it conforms to your opinions/beliefs/feelings/whatever- everything you have said in this thread only backs this up, for example you have come up with 0 undeniable factual evidence/proof in this thread.

I am different on the other hand- i debate things thoroughly before i form a strong opinion on them, i value undeniable factual evidence/proof far above stuff like pictures which could be of any age, date or origin. This is what i have done throughout this thread- to be honest i don't really care if you have issue with this, because i know this is the best way to go about debates on the action of accepting or rejecting information etc.

 

[Goldiegirl]

Please feel free to twist my words.

Let's just say, you see something completely different than myself, and I most of the other posters on this thread. In your eyes there is no cruelty. In my eyes there is.

I was on a boat in Yokohama and we went past a whaling ship. I saw that huge harpoon and I was moved to the point of tears. It physically is upsetting me to even see the whaling ships. I even wrote a friend of mine on Jref about it. She could understand. I think some people have the ability to have empathy for an animals suffering and others can't.

And Chi65 you are right about China. I just got sideswiped by a picture of cooked dogs feet in China. I just hate when they pop those pictures in stories with out warning. I was traumatized watching them skin cats alive and deep fry live turtles.

I answered. Your excuse is that you can't see cruelty.

 

[Tokis-Phoenix]

Please feel free to twist my words.

Let's just say, you see something completely different than myself, and I most of the other posters on this thread. In your eyes there is no cruelty. In my eyes there is.

I was on a boat in Yokohama and we went past a whaling ship. I saw that huge harpoon and I was moved to the point of tears. It physically is upsetting me to even see the whaling ships. I even wrote a friend of mine on Jref about it. She could understand. I think some people have the ability to have empathy for an animals suffering and others can't.

And Chi65 you are right about China. I just got sideswiped by a picture of cooked dogs feet in China. I just hate when they pop those pictures in stories with out warning. I was traumatized watching them skin cats alive and deep fry live turtles.

I answered. Your excuse is that you can't see cruelty.

I'm not going to twist your words, i don't need to- you make your own words sound shaky without me having to do anything to them.

Also, please refrain from continuously assuming things about me- again, for the second/third time, please see my opening words on my first post in this thread- i said animal cruelty exists in Japan. How am i denying animal cruelty then?

Also, as i have said before, i have different opinions on whaling, it is a different topic.
Please stop trying to flame- it really doesn't work with me. Do not virtually accuse me of having no empathy towards animals; if you actually read stuff like my first post in this thread, even an idiot could see that i have concerns about animal cruelty and i am compassionate towards animals- it was i for example who first mentioned in this thread that "animals should not be protected/valued more than others based on their popularity with people, rather that all animals should be treated equally etc". If you can read, you can see this- if you continue to deny my true words on this thread, i can only assume that you do not want to debate in a fair, mature and civilized matter, but rather are only out to damage my reputation or something silly like that.

for Tokis-Phoenix
Japan Killing Whales, Now Dolphins!

I don't have much more time on here, but so far i have just seen the "Surfers taking Action" video- i watched the actual videoing of the dolphin killing and to sum up all i saw was a scene of blood, then some dolphins in nets, then some girl crying. So far, no bludgeoning/bashing/beating etc to death of dolphins.
I gtg now but i will watch the other video's later and comment on them when i do .

 

[Goldiegirl]

I see what you write...you don't see cruelty in the video(s) and I do. So for that I think you are cruel. I can have that opinion. It is mine to have. I have been nothing less than civilized. Whales and dolphins are animals, therefore this thread is about them as well. As I wrote before, I haven't seen cruelty in pet animals in Japan and my friends there all have pets and they are all happy and healthy.

 

[Chi65]

Same old male behaviour of "superiority" and personal attacks, its not worth the exhaustion, GG. . . . . .

and who is avoiding. . .

 

[Tokis-Phoenix]

I see what you write...you don't see cruelty in the video(s) and I do. So for that I think you are cruel. I can have that opinion. It is mine to have. I have been nothing less than civilized. Whales and dolphins are animals, therefore this thread is about them as well. As I wrote before, I haven't seen cruelty in pet animals in Japan and my friends there all have pets and they are all happy and healthy.

Well what is so specifically cruel about the way they killed the dolphins in Chi's original video?

Same old male behaviour of superiority and personal attacks. . . . . .

If you're referring that post to me, for a start i am not male (see the little sign next to my countries flag?), secondly if i have ever said anything personally attacking in this thread, it has only been in response/defense to previous attacks towards me. If you deny this, can you prove it otherwise? The evidence is in this thread, it should be easy for you to find.

 

[Chi65]

Well what is so specifically cruel about the way they killed the dolphins in Chi's original video?

Why don't you watch the link, that I posted for you a few minutes ago, before you talk again?

If you're referring that post to me, for a start i am not male, secondly if i have ever said anything personally attacking in this thread, it has only been in response/defense to previous attacks towards me. If you deny this, can you prove it otherwise? The evidence is in this thread, it should be easy for you to find.

It sounds very male. . .in terms of feelings for sure. . .if you are not, you may have a problem.
I need nothing to prove, I have read this thread and how personally you have become.
Go on killing without feelings, if you find it normal.
But don't be surprised, if some see it in a different light.
Strange "Artist". . .

 

[Tokis-Phoenix]

Why don't you watch the link, that I posted for you a few minutes ago, before you talk again?

As i have said before, i will post comments on these videos as i watch them- however that comment you quoted was made before you posted these new video's.

It sounds very male. . .in terms of feelings for sure. . .if you are not, you may have a problem.
I need nothing to prove, I have read this thread and how personally you have become.
Go on killing without feelings, if you find it normal.
But don't be surprised, if some see it in a different light.
Strange "Artist". . .

Look, if you have a low opinion on men in general, then thats your problem. I find what you said about men offensive even though i am not male, i obviously have more respect for men that what you do and i disagree with your generalized comments on male behavior.

You are being highly hypocritical- you accuse me of personal insults/attacks when you yourself do the same. You are behaving in a very hypocritical manner.

Never have i said killing without feelings is normal. You accuse me of believing/saying in things which are not true, essentially what you are saying is a lie. Whether you are aware or not of the reality of this behavior or yours, you cannot deny it any longer now i have pointed these things out in black and white to you.

 

[Kyoto Returnee]

I find what you said about men offensive even though i am not male, i obviously have more respect for men that what you do and i disagree with your generalized comments on male behavior.

WOW!!!

That changes things a little;-)

Seriously Tokis, honestly, don't take it all so personally.

Yes, their are many who would love to give the Taiji dolphin killers a fist or two, definitely I would and I know you would appreciate that as I am a man, and other's who side with them and give them a big good day, keep up the good work (not me)

It's a case of what each individual perceives to be the truth.

I agree with Chi on the artists front.. Imagine if an artist was to paint pictures of the actual killings what people would then think?

You've made my day on the male front of things as not many understand us in trying times

 

[otoko]

I feel that those arguing about humane/inhumane treatment and cruelty are a bit arbitrary.

I know there are people who are against killing all animals. I assume they become vegans.

So as long as the killing is deemed "humane" then it is alright to kill animals?

I get the feeling that if dogs were treated the same as cows many would be against that. Which doesn't make much sense because if they were killed in a humane way and did not suffer cruelty and were processed for human consumption it should not matter what animal it is.

I think that some activists just would not have chickens, pigs and cows as pets. That cows and chickens lack the intelligence or soul or whatever it is that makes people think that farm animals below dogs and cats. That they are food and this is entirely natural. That dolphins and dogs are not food. Who decides this?

I read the argument(straight from Greenpeace) that kangaroos are okay to kill because they are not endangered. After arguing about animal cruelty and inhumane killing methods a Greenpeace scientist just says "well Kangaroos aren't endagered"(I read the article). Which is just a cop out.

To argue against cruelty and killing(murder?) of animals I think one would have to be consistent and not pick and choose certain animals. But this seems the case.

I think arguing against killing endangered animals is a fine argument. Sometimes though it seems people who can't justify why certain animals are ok to kill and others are not hide behind this.

 

[MadamePapillon]

I get the feeling that if dogs were treated the same as cows many would be against that. Which doesn't make much sense because if they were killed in a humane way and did not suffer cruelty and were processed for human consumption it should not matter what animal it is.

I think that some activists just would not have chickens, pigs and cows as pets. That cows and chickens lack the intelligence or soul or whatever it is that makes people think that farm animals below dogs and cats. That they are food and this is entirely natural. That dolphins and dogs are not food. Who decides this?

People are against the cruel treatment of cows and chickens, why do you think there are undercover video tapes of the conditions these animals live in and petitions against it? Because people care.

It's not just whales and pandas that get attention. Just last week a Californian meat plant was under fire for sending out meat from 'downer' cows and they may now have to close because of the resulting scandal and costs. Just because whales and dolphins are getting so much attention at the moment it doesn't mean people have stopped caring about the inhumane treatment of animals at home.

I think arguing against killing endangered animals is a fine argument. Sometimes though it seems people who can't justify why certain animals are ok to kill and others are not hide behind this.

I would think most people agree it's not ok it kill endangered animals. And it's not ok to kill animals in cruel and inhumane ways.
Killing animals isn't, in itself, a bad thing. We use animals for food, clothing, raw materials ect. but sometimes we kill animals when they are a danger to us or when they begin to become so large in numbers that they begin destroying the surrounding natural areas.

As for picking and choosing animals...I don't think it's so wrong to want to especially protect animals that can very easily become endangered and that we know to be of higher than normal intelligence.
Tell me, if you were given a gun and told to kill one of two animals, a rat or a gorilla, which would you kill and why?

 

[Mikawa Ossan]

All flaming will kindly stop or infractions will be handed out from here on out regardless of who started it. I am currently only concerned with people who participate in it.

 

[Kyoto Returnee]

It sounds very male. . ..

T.h.a.n.k.s;-)
--------------

 

[Chi65]

As i have said before, i will post comments on these videos as i watch them- however that comment you quoted was made before you posted these new video's.

It was clear in the former video as well. Also it is known, that the people from Taiji changed their habits and consciously choosed another cove (and time of actions) to hide.

BTW, you could have done your own art of using the search function here as well, instead of asking others to chew it all for you again. This is something, that generally annoyes me. If you don't do this yourself for said reasons, then please don't talk about the matter, and particularly don't be offensive towards the helpers, we also have limited time, dear. . . .

Look, if you have a low opinion on men in general, then thats your problem. I find what you said about men offensive even though i am not male, i obviously have more respect for men that what you do and i disagree with your generalized comments on male behavior.

You are being highly hypocritical- you accuse me of personal insults/attacks when you yourself do the same. You are behaving in a very hypocritical manner.

Never have i said killing without feelings is normal. You accuse me of believing/saying in things which are not true, essentially what you are saying is a lie. Whether you are aware or not of the reality of this behavior or yours, you cannot deny it any longer now i have pointed these things out in black and white to you.

You really have some problems with perceptions. . . and interpretations.
Its not worth my time to answer to this.

 

[Chi65]

T.h.a.n.k.s;-)
--------------

You know me, hehe, its not meant as generalisation, yet it is a more male behaviour, even in official researches (we had some according threads in another science forum, which was very interesting indeed!).

No man has to feel offended by this.
The more fighter orientated mentality is even statistically proven etc.
(But of course I also know those, who can handle their "gun" nicely).

I am not very interested in waisting too much time for such ways, but have good laughs about it. Comes with the age. . .

Dunno, why TP even started this way. The topic goes otherwise to my knowledge, thus back to topic:

Madam Papillon, I personally would give the gun back, and would say: wrong adress, btw. . .;-)

 

[Kyoto Returnee]

You know me, hehe, its not meant as generalisation, yet it is a more male behaviour, even in official researches (we had some according threads in another science forum, which was very interesting
indeed!).;-)

**********CHEEKY***********

"if you are not" ...and she wasn't but syill missed it!​

 

[Sarapva]

Just last week a Californian meat plant was under fire for sending out meat from 'downer' cows and they may now have to close because of the resulting scandal and costs.

Tell me, if you were given a gun and told to kill one of two animals, a rat or a gorilla, which would you kill and why?

The meat recall in California was partly from slaughtering "downers" (animals too sick or weak to walk to slaughter - sometimes they are dragged or bullied to the slaughter site), but also because of a Humane Society undercover video that showed the workers abusing these poor cows terribly: prodding them with electric prods, spraying water down their throats, shoving them with forklifts or plows. The cows are already sick and weak from not being taken care of in the first place, then to have this treatment at the end of their lives - no living thing deserves this. The workers are supposed to humanely euthanize downed animals and not put them into the food supply.

I think part of the "choosing" one animal above another to kill or not kill is because people don't know enough about certain animals like cows or pigs to know that they suffer and have feelings like cats and dogs. But as more of these videos get out, people will start to see how they're being treated and then will have the choice of whether to support that or not (by buying or not buying meat from certain companies).

And if I was asked to choose which animal to kill, I wouldn't kill either one. The people trying to force me could shoot me before I'd shoot the animal.

 

[Kyoto Returnee]

That's terrible Sara what some people will do

Definitely agree with the video sites, just ashame they keep banning them from different countries around the world when they disagree with content..

 

[Goldiegirl]

Not only is that slaughterhouse being closed down, the employees who were caught on video are being prosecuted for animal cruelty.