What do you think about the Bible?

That was correct, I was talking of Levey Satanism. He says himself satanism isn't about devils. Are you a Satanist Mycernius? (When I say satanist or satanism I always talk of Leveys.)
No, I'm an atheist.

Pugtm. I am also hoping for a serious discussion forum to re-appear. Hopefully it will happen.
From what I have read about the Jewish idea of Satan is that is more a state of mind rather than an actually malevolent spirit. I do know that Jews do not believe in hell, something I find quite amusing whenever I see a evangelical site saying all Jews will go to hell. They don't like it when you mention that Jews don't believe in it and it is very much a Christian invention, with pagan origins.
 
Hey everyone!
I am sorry for not being here for a while, I was a bit busy.
Let me please reply to some of you here:

To Mycernius,
Neither do Muslims or Jews. Both accept his existance and, as Putgm pointed out, he did teach heretical ideas.
These teachings are profound, deep, explaining the very meaning of God's Law and justice, his love and mercy to people. Again, whoever reads the biblical passages about the Plural Nature of God will see that nothing here is heretical.

Islam even agrees on the virgin birth, but do not assign him divine status, only as a prophet. Only Christians believe in the resurrection.
It's true, but can you disprove Jesus' resurrection? Can you explain the source of the disciples' belief in a mythical Jesus who wasn't even a man, and didn't rise from the dead?
I am not about to debate whether Jesus existed or not. Although there is very little evidence that such a man existed, except in the Gospels, which are not reliable, but I do think a preacher or many preachers of his type did exist, but none were divine.
Josephus, Tacitus, Plinny the Younger and others had testimony about Jesus' existence and his disciples who followed 'Christ'.
What is unreliable in the gospels? Their inner contradictions? Everything has a solution, just look at Christian apologetic sites, don't be stubborn and you'll see that it's not hard to explain all the difficulties.

Much of the story of Jesus can be found in myths that pre-date the Jesus myth by almost a thousand years. What the Gospels appear to be is an amalgamation of other God/man myths into Jesus.
That's not true, since the story of creation, birth of Moses, story of Noah and the flood etc. have also similar pagan stories.
Jesus virgin birth is not similar to others. While a god and a woman had sexual relationship and someone was born, Jesus was born out of God himself, by the holy spirit, without any sexual intercourse between gods and people.

Who can say is the true Christianity? I believe there are over a thousand different denominations at the moment.
The true Christianity is the one which has no contradiction with the biblical teaching. There can be tradition, differences, but they must not contradict the bible in anything. This is the true Christianity.

That is correct... There are over a thousand denominations. Even people who don't set up an organisation are their own denomination; they have their own ideas and beliefs on what different sections and passages of the bible mean.
'Do not spray your seed on infertile ground'. Dunno if that is exact, but it has a multitude of meanings, some sexual, some agricultural as in actual seed, and it could even mean exactly the same as words falling on deaf ears. The point is, is that everyone has their own ideals. My dad is christian, yet he does not believe Jesus was the son of god, he thinks it was just a very intelligent and righteous jew.
I think that I've mentioned this above, that there is true Judaism and Christianity.
Therefore, there is no true judaism, no true christianity and no true religion; religion is what you make it.


there is a true judaism because there was no prophet that made it up. We know and remember we received a revelation directly through god(3 million jews all at once so we know it wasn't just some guy on hashish). in fact judaism is different in that there is no prophet that introduced it to us.
According to Exodus, the Jews were afraid of speaking to God, so they asked of Moses to speak to them the godly commandments, and that's why Moses is considered to be the father of prophets. god did directly, through him we received the books and from them we got judges and prophets. A prophet cannot go against anything already spoken by another prophet or god or he automatically disqualified and is a heretic. so there is a true judaism. No matter what there are the basic commandments that any sect of judaism has to follow no matter what. Only traditions are different. If they don't follow these they aren't jewish. I wanted to make that clear that most people dont even have the slightest conceptual understanding of judaism that someone born to it does. It is so different from any other religion that have been explained to me that its not even funny.
Christianity is the teaching of God to many, showing miracles to many, and bringing the many to God's knowledge- something the Messiah was supposed to do. I have a question: How can an atheist be a Satanist? It's like to worship an idol.


Simply throwing claims across the table at each other will lead to nowhere execpt perhaps a closed thread--which I, and Alex18 (at least) hope will not happen.
I hope too.
There are a number of statements made by both pugtm san and Alex18 san that I will challenge, but now is not the right moment--still too early !!!!! I REPEAT, IT'S STILL TOO EARLY !!!
I've answered your challenges, at least I hope I have. What's next?


Those who say there is no hell, read Isaiah and Daniel, Psalm and find out that it exists. If heaven exists, where righteous go, then hell also. It's a biblical concept, not an invention.
 
I think it's a badly written piece of fiction.

It's sort of strange that so many people think it's factual.

Maybe in 2000 years time there will be some sort of cult based around Lord of the Rings.
 
I think it's a badly written piece of fiction.
It's sort of strange that so many people think it's factual.
Maybe in 2000 years time there will be some sort of cult based around Lord of the Rings.

I'm confused. I don't understand why people are down on others who like looking for something better then what this world has to offer.

No,i am not trying to convert anyone, i am just giving my view on it.
 
I'm not "down" on anyone.

I just gave my opinion.

I still have that right, don't I?

I personally think that it is important to question everything and so blindly believing what a book written thousands of years ago says seems a little silly to me.
 
I generally don't have any negative feelings in the Bible or any other holy book for that matter. But I just view them as books, nothing more. Only pieces of literature that are open for interpretation. I don't believe that a holy book could possibly have all the answers for the reason of human existence. And I feel that if you do believe in God, that belief shouldn't be based on what a book says.

But that's just me. 😌
 
Hey everyone!
I am sorry for not being here for a while, I was a bit busy.
Let me please reply to some of you here....

yes but can you please organize those quotes so we know were you are writing and what you are quoteing i cant make sense of it.
 
I'll proceed in chronological order here, as best I can:

w1ngzer0 said:
serious discussions usually end in debate then end up in arguing.

This can happen if the following basic modes of presentation are not generally met. (1) supply data in the way of evidence for a propositon made--even if that goes deeply into embedded predicates of a clause within the overall proposition. (2) argue so as to present your claims and thesises as sound as you can, with as much evidence you feel is needed to convince a neutral third party of the accuracy and validity of your claim or thesis, WITHOUT expecting or trying, even, to get agreement from an opponent.

Also, in this context, it would be best not to think of the terms 'argue' and 'bebate' in the sense of anything other than academic exercise--not the run-of-the-mill heated, emotional shouting matches that one may find in many places. A higher level of state of mind is necessary for this type of discussion and subject matter.

Alex18 said:
I've answered your challenges, at least I hope I have.

Actually no. In reading my words just above in this post, you'll see that supporting claims will end up being the decisive matters behind the neutral third party's vouching for a certain claim or thesis. Now whether you take even that much to be true or not, is beyond my control. . . but for those in the field--which you would soon find out about if you were to read any professional Journals from within this field--it is a given.

If you were to look over the posts from page two, you may notice that I am the only poster who has made any effort--though just scratching the surface at the moment--to provide evidence for my propositions and claims. A person can quote some verse from a written document, but that too will have to stand up to being tested, you see.

I hope to continue this discussion, but. . . let's see how it goes. Are you really willing to do so, Alex18, applying the working modes mentioned above for an academical discussion? I really hope you and others are !!!

The Bible...and, everybody, PLEASE note the definition I, at least, am using...has some fiction in it, yes, but it also has some non-fiction in it. It even has some parts which possibly evidence supernatural source--although that does not necessarily demand that the source be the god-model prescribe by the writers.

The title of this thread is a bit of a problem, because it is just asking what we think of the 'Bible'--without saying what that is. I have taken a referent for that, and am using that, so I hope all will be careful to note that when I use the word 'Bible' it is probably more than just the idea you have develop in your mind.

From this weekend, then, I will start my explanation and thesis on what the 'bible' is.

Yes, it is important to be careful about the usage of quotes...let's try to be as exact as we can.
 
@ Alex18 - First thing first, could you please play with the quote function, as reading your posts is difficult to follow. Thank you👍

It's true, but can you disprove Jesus' resurrection? Can you explain the source of the disciples' belief in a mythical Jesus who wasn't even a man, and didn't rise from the dead?

It isn't up to me to dosprove the ressureaction. You made the statement, and so does christianity, that a man resurrected from the dead. To make a statement it must have proper evidence, not from a book of myths. The followers of Pythagoras thought he resurrected after he died. He was alos said to have turned water into wine. This is more likely from a practice found in the cult of Mithras, an older religion,. LINK
note this quote:
Mithraism had many similarities to Christianity. Mithras was born of a virgin, remained celibate, his worship involving baptism, the partaking of bread marked with a cross and wine as sacrificial blood, held Sundays sacred and Mithras was born on 25th of December. Mithraist called themselves 'brother' and were led by a priest called 'father' (Pater). The symbol of the father were a staff, a hooked sword, a ring and hat
The next paragraph shows that Christian apologists were making unfounded claims then as well as today, trying to circumnavigate problems and inconsistances by ignoring the problem or making more myths up.

Alex18 said:
What is unreliable in the gospels? Their inner contradictions? Everything has a solution, just look at Christian apologetic sites, don't be stubborn and you'll see that it's not hard to explain all the difficulties
Christian apologetic sites are not worth the time. It shows that these people cannot or don't want to see the real truth and do real research on history and pre-christian myths and how it influenced early christian faith. The Gospels are not realiable. John was written about 100 to 120 years after the events. Luke even mentions in the first 5 verses that it is hanede down by people who talked to eyewitnesses and servants of the word. In other words hearsay, chinese whispers and from the faithful who have only read other writings. hardly a realible peice of work. Then there is also the time it was written. Along with Mark, about 60 - 70 years after the events took place. Matthew is the oldest of the Gospels, but that is 40 years after the date. Mars Man is the more knowledgable on the Gospels, so he can correct where I might have gone wrong.

Alex18 said:
That's not true, since the story of creation, birth of Moses, story of Noah and the flood etc. have also similar pagan stories.
Yes they do, and they all pre-date the biblical versions

Alex18 said:
Jesus virgin birth is not similar to others. While a god and a woman had sexual relationship and someone was born, Jesus was born out of God himself, by the holy spirit, without any sexual intercourse between gods and people
Sidhartha was said to have been born from his mothers side.
In Kapilavastu, on the Indo-Nepalese border, his earthly mother, Queen Maya, experienced a vision in which she beheld the Buddha come down into her womb as a white elephant. This was interpreted as the birth of a world savior, and when the time came for Maya to give birth, she went to a grove, where the child was born, emerging from her right side without causing her the slightest pain
Pre-dates Jesus by 500 years. Krishna was also from a virgin birth, as was Mithras. All pre-date Jesus and show it was not an original idea.

Alex18 said:
The true Christianity is the one which has no contradiction with the biblical teaching. There can be tradition, differences, but they must not contradict the bible in anything. This is the true Christianity.
That must be very difficult then, as the bible has quite a few contradictions within it.

How can an atheist be a Satanist? It's like to worship an idol
LaVeyan Satanism is more akin to a celebration of human nature with no Gods to intervene, Not a 100% sure, as it has been a while since a looked through the Satanic Bible. An atheist can be classe as a satanist by people of Abrahamic faiths as they are heathens in their eyes and not followers of God. People who do not follow God therefore must belong to Satan. Christian logic, go figure.

Alex18 said:
Those who say there is no hell, read Isaiah and Daniel, Psalm and find out that it exists. If heaven exists, where righteous go, then hell also. It's a biblical concept, not an invention
They didn't believe in hell, not as you know it. They are Jewish texts and Jews do not believe in hell. Therefore Isaiah, Daniel, Ezekial, Moses, Ester and all those people in the OT are Jewish and did not believe in hell. I think Pugtm san pointed that out, and seeing he is Jewish I think he is more qualified to speak on that matter than a christian.
 
Originally Posted by Alex18
The true Christianity is the one which has no contradiction with the biblical teaching. There can be tradition, differences, but they must not contradict the bible in anything. This is the true Christianity.
Christianity has many many contradictions starting with jesus "divine status" itself which was decided apon by the church hundreds of years after his birth.
Also hell in judaism does not exist. Not in any conventional christian sense of the concept. so long sotry short we dont beleive in hell. i will try to explain but not now i need to look some stuff up and yom kippur starts soon so i need to go prepare and im in school so i really should go back to working and stop slacking off.:p
 
i will but actually our holiest day of the year starts in about 2 hours so we need to get prepared.
So its a food and communication blackout for 25 hours. so i wont be on to explain or argue so please hold up a bit on the arguments until its over and wish me an easy fast(its really gonna suck) :mad::mad::auch:😭k):( no food or water for 25 hours straight. :mad::mad::auch:😭k):(and no electronics to take my mind off of it either. Oh well...
 
You post @ Today, 19:31
Then post that huge smily face post @ Today, 22:03
Within that time you can't post one link?

You lazy bum!!









Just kidding. 🙂
 
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hello everyone im back and still alive👍😌:-)🙂🙂:D
sorry i was out for so long but yom kippur lasts 25 hours. :sorry:
But at least i can eat know god knows i missed food👍:LOL::gulp:!!!!
alright back to the arguement
Explane.Link. something.
alright Christians accept the old testament correct? For the sake of arguement lets say yes.
in Deuteronomy it says:
1 All this word which I command you, that shall ye observe to do; thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it. {P}
2 If there arise in the midst of thee a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams--and he give thee a sign or a wonder,
3 and the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spoke unto thee--saying: 'Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them';
4 thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or unto that dreamer of dreams; for the LORD your God putteth you to proof, to know whether ye do love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
5 After the LORD your God shall ye walk, and Him shall ye fear, and His commandments shall ye keep, and unto His voice shall ye hearken, and Him shall ye serve, and unto Him shall ye cleave.
6 And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken perversion against the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed thee out of the house of bondage, to draw thee aside out of the way which the LORD thy God commanded thee to walk in. So shalt thou put away the evil from the midst of thee. {S}
7 If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, that is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying: 'Let us go and serve other gods,' which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers;
8 of the gods of the peoples that are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth; 9 thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him;
10 but thou shalt surely kill him; thy hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. 11 And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to draw thee away from the LORD thy God, who brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage...
so kinda sounds like jesus no? proposes complete changes and claims to be a holy being that we did not know before and asks us to worship him... so he cannot be god since he contradicts something said earlier by god.
also claims to be the messiah and or king of jews are not true because the messiah has specific things that apply to him jesus fulfills none of the criterion
 
Well I'm glad you survived Yom Kippur pugtm san !! Welcome back again.

I'm finding it a bit hard to start out on this. Hummm...well here goes.

In the year 100 BCE was there a Bible? Yes, there was, but it was not the one we have today! That, whether a person is emotionally inclined to clasp their hands over their ears and shut their eyes or not, is a fact. In what way can we so confidently claim that it was a fact? There were no gospel accounts, no letters written by any Christian religious leaders circulating--so, relative to our Bible of 66 individual works of today, there was no Bible in 100 BCE.

Was there a Bible in the year 500 BCE? Yes, there was, but it was not the same as what would have been considered 'the body of sacred writings' in the year 100 BCE. How is that so? There were quite plausibly some books within that group of sacred writings which had since been lost with the fall of Israel to Babylon. Also there were written documents added to that group later than 500 BCE. In fact, if a person goes back far enough, there will be no Bible in any shape, size, function, or content.

This fact must be kept in mind when dealing with this field of study !! There was a time, when there was not !! For this reason, we must work at verifying the claims made by those who adopted the written works which passed through time and hands, to reach us today--in whatever forms they may have taken along the way.

It is for that reason that I had put the cut off point for the referent for our term 'Bible' to be the first quarter of the fourth century--the 'Bible' from that point in time has not changed much at all.

POINT NUMBER ONE : The Bible was penned by human beings.

There is no contest against this understanding at all ! It is absolute fact that people wrote down on some medium, in some language of human design, the content that is to be found on the pages which make up the works that we include in our definition--Bible.

POINT NUMBER TWO : The Bible's content changed as people changed with the flow of time.

Now here is where we will start to get embedded--go into detail. I hope that all that are really interested, take the time to take it all in carefully. (of course I will not go into too much detail) I will start with the Jewish religious works, although starting with the Christian works is usually much easier due to much closer text forms to extrabiblical writings.

A. The Mishnah and Gemara (Talmud) are explanations of what had been considered the oral law, and are from the late second to early third centuries, and later third to sixth centuries, respectively. There is no written record of such oral tradition before that, so it has no room in the discussion. (1)

At first, the writings had been in the various stages of Hebrew, and had consisted of primarily the Torah. This basic work, however, more likely than not appears to have been built upon as time proceeded. (2) Also, we do have both the Judean Torah and the Samarian Torah which display some differences.

Then, in time the several Jewish documents went Greek. In his work Antiquites of the Jews, Joseph ben Matthias (Favious Josephus) written sometime around 93 or 94 CE, gives us the following:

II.13--Now when the law was transcribed, and the labour of the interpretation was over, which came to its conclusion in seventy-two days, Demetrius gathered all the Jews together to the place where the laws were translated, and where the interpreters were, and read them over. The multitude did also approve of those elders that were the interpreters of the law. Moreover they all, both the priests and the ancientest of the elders, and the principal men of their commonwealth, made it their request, that since the interpretation was happily finished, it might continue in the state it now was, and might not be altered. (3)

This work, the Septuagint (LXX) became the all-round sacred collection of writings for especially Jewish groups of the diaspora. This work, however, differs from the best recension of the line of texts in the Hebrew language. Also, there are a few variance of LXX textual exemplars that can be found.

I will go into those next, but the main point up to this point is that we can very clearly see that there had not been one single and invariably agreed on textual format for the Torah, the Nevi'im, and the Kethuvim, among other texts that did not eventually make the standard group in 90 CE.


1. What the Great Religions Believe by Joseph Gaer; 1963, pp 107, 108; 2. The Yahwist: The Earliest Editor in the Pentatech by Christoph Levin; Ludwig-Maximilians-Universitat, Munchen, Germany (Journal of Biblical Literature--HERE AFTER JBL--Vol. 126/2 '07, pp 209-230; 3. The Complete Works of Josephus by Wm. Whiston 27th printing; p250.
 
yes you are right except some things are not specifically incorrect just not 100%
the two interpretations of mishna(oral law) are the talmud bavli and yerushalmi) the talmud of babel and of jerusalem. one was created in israel and one in exile. For us ashkenazim we use the talmud bavli since it is the more developed and full version. as to your statement that there is no agreement as to the tanach it was finalized
also as to say that there was no tanach before 100 bce
"David A. deSilva writes: "Since the law is known as 'the book of Moses' or 'the law of Moses' (6:13; 7:11-13), the work must certainly postdate the fifth century, when the formation of the Pentateuch was nearly complete. It seems reasonable to set the earliest date of composition as sometime during the third century B.C.E."
so the canon was almost compiled and it certainly included and did not alter the original 5 books.
by the way does anyone know how to highlight words?
 
Thanks for your comments, pugtm san.

I am aware of the Babylonian Talmud but did not even bother to mention it since the composition really appears to be 5th century CE. Please do take note: this is not to deny that it could mostly have been in some oral form, or even in some format of writing before that, but simply to point out that the recension that we have appears to have been compiled at that time.

In reading others posts, I would suggest care be taken. I cannot find where it could be taken that I claimed that there had been no tanakh before 100 BCE. If you were to look over that more carefully, you will find that what I am actually doing is showing the progression of development of what later had come to be total body of sacred writings which had been taken as authoritative by the several religious groups up until the fourth century, CE.

I wish I could look into your source material there to find out which particular recension that author had been speaking of. It might be good to verify those citations there (6:13; 7:11-13) because I can't find them. I find that the wording 'the book of Moses' never comes at any 6:13 in the present Tanakh. Could it have been Ezra 6:18? That does have it.

But one can find it also at Joshua 8:31 (khakhaw thoob beseepher thorat mosih) in almost the same form as at Ezra 6:18. The phrase, 'the law of Moses' can be found at Ezra 3:2 as well as in Daniel. (9:13; 9:11) {and of course other places too}

What you have quoted is saying that the particular recension or exemplar of a recension that that author is talking about had been composed, at the earlier feasible date, in the third century BCE. If you think about that very carefully--of course with some research and all, I'm sure you'll find that is not saying exactly what you seem (I could be wrong here) to think it is saying. That is because of the style of writing in this field. There are a number of witnesses, you see, for a single textual form, and what textual criticism does is try to get to an original text from the average of differences between the texts--no two witnesses are exactly alike in most cases--especially between distances and time.

If you were to go back, in case you missed it, there had been no real, agreed upon in any formal manner canon of sacred writings until 90 CE. Of course there were the scrolls of the Torah, and there were other scrolls too. Some added during the second temple period at the hands of Nehemiah. Remember, the Bible is broader than the Torah, broader than the Tanakh, even. . . could include the Jerusalem Talmud ( I hadn't considered that earlier, but we could put it in the definition). . . and is broader than the typical Bible of today that Christians use. Please do keep that in mind, as we go onward.

Your later point will be touched on again as we go further into POINT NUMBER TWO. To highlight, or bold, use the 'advance' style posting format, and click on the B then write the text you'd wish to make bold. After you have finished that, use the 'end' arrow to move out of that 'bold' space. OR...you can do this ' [ b ]' without the spaces, then write your text, then use it again with a '/ ' before the ' b '. (and of course without the single quotation marks.)
 
I remember the last time this topic was brought up. Oh what a joyous and interesting time..
 
Thanks for your comments, pugtm san.
I am aware of the Babylonian Talmud but did not even bother to mention it since the composition really appears to be 5th century CE. Please do take note: this is not to deny that it could mostly have been in some oral form, or even in some format of writing before that, but simply to point out that the recension that we have appears to have been compiled at that time.
In reading others posts, I would suggest care be taken. I cannot find where it could be taken that I claimed that there had been no tanakh before 100 BCE. If you were to look over that more carefully, you will find that what I am actually doing is showing the progression of development of what later had come to be total body of sacred writings which had been taken as authoritative by the several religious groups up until the fourth century, CE.
I wish I could look into your source material there to find out which particular recension that author had been speaking of. It might be good to verify those citations there (6:13; 7:11-13) because I can't find them. I find that the wording 'the book of Moses' never comes at any 6:13 in the present Tanakh. Could it have been Ezra 6:18? That does have it.
But one can find it also at Joshua 8:31 (khakhaw thoob beseepher thorat mosih) in almost the same form as at Ezra 6:18. The phrase, 'the law of Moses' can be found at Ezra 3:2 as well as in Daniel. (9:13; 9:11) {and of course other places too}
What you have quoted is saying that the particular recension or exemplar of a recension that that author is talking about had been composed, at the earlier feasible date, in the third century BCE. If you think about that very carefully--of course with some research and all, I'm sure you'll find that is not saying exactly what you seem (I could be wrong here) to think it is saying. That is because of the style of writing in this field. There are a number of witnesses, you see, for a single textual form, and what textual criticism does is try to get to an original text from the average of differences between the texts--no two witnesses are exactly alike in most cases--especially between distances and time.
If you were to go back, in case you missed it, there had been no real, agreed upon in any formal manner canon of sacred writings until 90 CE. Of course there were the scrolls of the Torah, and there were other scrolls too. Some added during the second temple period at the hands of Nehemiah. Remember, the Bible is broader than the Torah, broader than the Tanakh, even. . . could include the Jerusalem Talmud ( I hadn't considered that earlier, but we could put it in the definition). . . and is broader than the typical Bible of today that Christians use. Please do keep that in mind, as we go onward.
Your later point will be touched on again as we go further into POINT NUMBER TWO. To highlight, or bold, use the 'advance' style posting format, and click on the B then write the text you'd wish to make bold. After you have finished that, use the 'end' arrow to move out of that 'bold' space. OR...you can do this ' [ b ]' without the spaces, then write your text, then use it again with a '/ ' before the ' b '. (and of course without the single quotation marks.)
thanks for the info

now as to your point that the canon was not yet compiled it is true but the five books existed and were static and extremely important. also most of the books were agreed apon for the canon for quite a while the only controversial books finally included were song of songs and i think Ezekiel(need to go check).
also as to your suggestion we include the talmud yerushalmi don't bother its almost never used since the bavli is so much more comprehensive.
also no one has responded to my jesus post. do you guys know were alex-san went?
 
Firstly to touch on some earlier matters. If it's ok, Mycernus, I'll get to the NT canon stuff a little latter--if it ever goes that far.

Faustianideals san, that's fine, no problem. I think you may be referring to the problem that had arose between strongvoicesforward san and sabro san. That fault far more clearly lay in strongvoicesforward's error. That type of thing will most surely never happen again...don't worry.

Ah, -Rudel- san! The old philosopher's puzzle. I'm afraid, however, that there is no answer to that from among the several god-models that humankind has come up with. Thinking outside the box does not seem to help either--at least not as far as I have studied or thought about it. (which isn't saying much, though)

Pugtm san, I suppose Alex18 will be around in time--and others too, may wish to say something--but I will admit that I didn't respond to the text of Deuteronomy 13:1~18 (the fuller contextual set {and it would be good to be careful with citations...please remember to give book, chapter, and verse} because it was basically off topic. The thread's topic, which all should make an effort to adhere to, is 'what we think about the Bible.'

If it is any appeasement, the proposition you had put forward there in that post, would run into a dead end. The reasons being that the assumptions upon which the reason for trying to make application of that particular passage in Deut., are misplaced. The fallacy lies in the premise.

Then, in continuation of points under my POINT NUMBER TWO, and the embedding there, I would like to clarify a few things. It is true that the far greater bulk of words, phrases, clauses, and passages of the general bulk of witnesses for the OT works is very much in agreement. I am not speaking in absolute terms when I say, for example, ' ... up to this point is that we can very clearly see that there had not been one single and invariably agreed on textual format for the Torah, the Nevi'im, and the Kethuvim, among other texts that did not eventually make the standard group in 90 CE .' It is simply that there are differences in the textual witnesses which show us that the writing was a human effort.

We should be careful with our wording too. I would reason that it is less correct to say that 'the [OT] canon was not yet compiled,' but rather that it had not been delimited to just certain documents before 90 CE.

I'll take your suggestion on the Talmud matter, and not place it in my referent for 'Bible.' (of course the Babylonian Talmud is too late to consider)

I'll post this much for now, and will continue with POINT NUMBER TWO next, giving further evidence for the understanding that the biblical texts are of human origin to the far greater degree.
 
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